Step I for ER

[Dawg_MD]

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What would you say would be a conservative goal to get on Step I to put a student in good shape to get a ER residency?

 

[endo]

Probably a reasonable goal would be 230, although you could probably get away with less. Study hard for step 1 and you will not have to worry too much about step 2.

 

[droliver]

That score seems a bit high compared to the mean in recent years & the fact that there is a very low non-match rate in ER. A 230 on step one (depending on the mean & standard deviation for that year) can sometimes be in the 90th percentile of scores which is a much more competative score then you would likely need to match. To pick & choose your program however, its like most of the mid-competative specialties - the top programs will be much more selective & scores in that range would be pretty common

 

[bigfrank]

FYI, 230 is considered to be a (and I quote) "very strong score" at Vanderbilt, which is considered to be a strong program on a national scale.

Telling someone that a 230 is a "conservative" score is ridiculous. I know that everyone likes to think that their specialty is "tops" in terms of board scores, etc., but trust me----------230 will land you ANYWHERE you want to go in term so EM.

That said, shoot to "beat the mean" and you'll be fine------anywhere around 210 is just fine.

Sincerely,

Frank

 

[woodzy]

There should be a little bit of a distinction made here. If I'm not mistaken dawg_md is an fmg from SGU as am I. There is a big difference between the step scores we need to be considered competitive vs. a US applicant's scores. Is it total BS, absolutely, but it happens to be the way the system works. That being said I think 230 on step 1 coming from SGU is indeed a conservative estimate of what you will need to get a decent number of interviews.
I got scores on steps 1 and 2 that were substantially higher than 230, applied to 35 programs and got 11 interviews. A us grad with the same scores would have probably been granted 25-30 interviews out of the 35 programs.
Also, as an fmg, we really do need to worry about step 2 because the scores have to be turned in before our application is considered.

 

[TheEyesHaveIt]

hi woodzy, just wondering about your last statement re step 2 scores.
is it required or just a good idea to have one's step 2 scores available to have one's application considered for an EM residency?
also, are you applying this year or did you apply previously and have matched already. Im a fmg planning on applying for next year.
thank you.

 

[DrQuinn]

As a DO (considered an independent applicant like IMG/FMGs), I was in a similar situation. However, I did not take Step II prior to my ERAS or my interviews. In fact, I still do not have my scores (took it in January). I got plenty of interviews, and didn't get asked any questions about it.

Q

 

[Annette]

The difference with an IMG is that we are required to have passed steps 1&2, CSA, and toefl before some deadline (I think the rank order deadline, but I'm not certain. The exams have to have been passed by usually Jan. 15th of the year you want to match). If you don't pass the exams by then, you are pulled from the match. So, doesn't matter if the PD's care, the info is likely to be there for an IMG.

 

[The White Coat Investor]

Whoever is calling 230 adequate doesn't know the facts. A buddy and I had nearly identical applications, except for board scores. He had one in the high 220s and I had one in the high 250s. I got every interview in the West I wanted, but one. Whereas he got one. Yes, you can go anywhere you want in the midwest with a 230 (he did get interviews at Henny, Indy, and Pitt,) but some locations are more competitive than that. Yes most people match, but EM is no FP.

 

[endo]

Funny how California is so popular -- I think the state has more of a "location" rep than it deserves. IMHO the best location as far as where EM programs are is Denver (gotta love the mountains).

I suppose some clarification on my earlier post is in order. I think, if you are o/w average as an applicant and you apply to programs in various regions, a 230 would tend to help you more than hurt you. Between 220-230, it probably wouldn't help / hurt much (for average programs). Below 220, I think it would be more of a liability.

-endo

 

[pinbor1]

I think a 230 is more than an adequate score depending on the rest of your application. I for one got ~220 and did fine with getting interviews. I got almost all the california schools I applied to accept for one.

I would recommend to everyone that they try their best on step 1, but remember that this is one of many things they look at. For me, I think it was my clerkship grades/evals and LORs that got me my interviews. If you mess up, you can also take step II early if you feel you have to prove yourself.

 

[nguy0161]

hi all,
an US IMG at an Australian school. About taking step 2 for ER residency, it is not required to get interviews? I am so busy now and have no time to prepare to step 2. got 99% on step 1 (very supprised) and a "solid pass" from an ER rotation I did in New Mexico.
Cheers

 

[DOnut]

Ok, so will someone please post the average score needed for EM. A good program, not harvard. I'm also not interested in hearing about all the "geniuses" who score 250+. Danka!

 

[DrQuinn]

Ok, so will someone please post the average score needed for EM. A good program, not harvard. I'm also not interested in hearing about all the "geniuses" who score 250+. Danka!

The average score "needed for EM" is probably around... the average score for the USMLE or COMLEX. True, EM is a competitive field, moreso than Anesthesia but far less than ortho/plastics/derm, you can get into a program with less than stellar scores. Granted it may not be your #1 choice, but you matched nonetheless.

Q

 

[Sessamoid]

Depends on where you want to go. BTW, Harvard isn't that highly regarded a program yet. It's new, and getting better, but nowhere near elite status.

Most of the west coast programs are very tough to get into, based simply on location. The two exceptions are Bakersfield (because it's out in the middle of nowhere, and being out in the middle of nowhere is pretty much the same in any state) and MLK, because it's such a dysfunctional hospital.

I had a pretty average application, a Step one in the mid 230's, and I got very few interviews on the west coast. I think your letters of recommendation will probably make a bigger difference in your strength of application than board scores as long as you don't do worse than the median.

 

[NinerNiner999]

220+ if you did nothing but go to medical school.
210+ if you were involved in extracurriculars, had average grades
200+ if you were completely well-rounded (average grades, research, many extracurriculars, volunteers, previous or current EMS experience).

My point - USMLE is a mere fraction of your application, and the programs that consider this are where you want to be.

Try a search on the SAEM.org webpage - there is a great article on average board scores by program. If you are too lazy, most programs who completed the survey for this study had cutoffs at 200 for step I, some had cutoffs at 205, and very few were above 210 (granted, this article is 5 years old or so). RELAX - apply widely regardless of your score and see what programs want to see you, and not your numbers!

 

[DOnut]

Thanks for the replies. Those are the answers that I and I believe the OP were looking for.

 

[castaway]

NinerNiner999--

Tried finding the article you mention but could not. Can you please specify where it is on the SAEM website? Thanks.

 

[USCDiver]

Yeah average board scores, blah blah blah...

I was 241 Step I and 236 Step II, but I only had a 3.2 GPA. I scrambled. Granted, I'm very happy in my program now, but don't think that board scores are the be all and end all of getting to go to your first choice.

By the way, it wasn't the interview either, I give great interviews. And I got honors and high pass from my two ED rotations.

 

[pimpdogg]

I really thought that undergrad was the last time I was going to have to be a part of organizations that I don't care about. Extracurriculars? That's annoying. In my free time I want to have fun and hang out with my friends, not have club meetings.

 

[NinerNiner999]

NinerNiner999--

Tried finding the article you mention but could not. Can you please specify where it is on the SAEM website? Thanks.

The article is here: http://www.saem.org/download/54_60.pdf

Keep in mind that you will hear from many people that high board scores, AOA, excellent grades, and every extracurricular under the sun will get you into EM. If anyone has that total package it will get them into any field. Don't get too consumed with the perfect application, remember the little guys make up the bulk of our field....

 

[EMDrMoe]

I really thought that undergrad was the last time I was going to have to be a part of organizations that I don't care about. Extracurriculars? That's annoying. In my free time I want to have fun and hang out with my friends, not have club meetings.

I'd say don't go out on a limb if you don't care about it. Maybe the field's not the right one if you don't care about the orgs/extracurriculars. Who knows? Maybe later that will change. Anything's a long career if you're bored and can't wait to go home. Find something that's fun for you 😀

 

[pimpdogg]

I'd say don't go out on a limb if you don't care about it. Maybe the field's not the right one if you don't care about the orgs/extracurriculars. Who knows? Maybe later that will change. Anything's a long career if you're bored and can't wait to go home. Find something that's fun for you 😀

It's not that I'm not interested in ER. But I personally cringe when I think of joining the ER interest group or any other clubs. I know I want to be an ER doc. Do I really need to join a club to show this? I'm worried that not doing this stuff is going to haunt me but I just want my free time to be just that, free. Some guys at my school started a Doctors Against Drunk Driving club. Does anyone else think this is ridiculous? They're just doing it so they have something to put on their apps. That's like having a group called Doctors Against Murder. I would rather watch TV then start a club that's going to eat up what little free time I have.

I'm just venting.

 

[castaway]

NinerNiner999,

Thanks!

 

[Koschei]

Funny how California is so popular -- I think the state has more of a "location" rep than it deserves. IMHO the best location as far as where EM programs are is Denver (gotta love the mountains).

I suppose some clarification on my earlier post is in order. I think, if you are o/w average as an applicant and you apply to programs in various regions, a 230 would tend to help you more than hurt you. Between 220-230, it probably wouldn't help / hurt much (for average programs). Below 220, I think it would be more of a liability.

-endo

I would agree with Desperado and Sessamoid on a few points. I really seems that the most competitive programs out there are mostly because of a combination of location and quality. Thats probably why 3 of the most competitive places out west are Denver (mountains) Highland (bay) and Harbor (hollywood). Granted these programs are all legendary as far as training, but it doesnt hurt to live in a pretty place. These are the programs that having scores in the 250s are gonna help alot. And there are plenty of other great programs that are not as competitive simply because they are geographically-challenged.

 

[Sessamoid]

I would agree with Desperado and Sessamoid on a few points. I really seems that the most competitive programs out there are mostly because of a combination of location and quality. Thats probably why 3 of the most competitive places out west are Denver (mountains) Highland (bay) and Harbor (hollywood). Granted these programs are all legendary as far as training, but it doesnt hurt to live in a pretty place. These are the programs that having scores in the 250s are gonna help alot. And there are plenty of other great programs that are not as competitive simply because they are geographically-challenged.

Actually Harbor is in Torrance, which isn't quite a beach town but it's just inland of redondo beach. Hollywood is a pretty long commute from Torrance, though I know one doc who does it (about an 60-90 minutes commute depending on traffic). It's definitely the residency closest to the beach in the LA area. Olive View and USC are both quite a bit further inland.

Highland is only one of two programs in the SF bay area, the other being Stanford. Highland is in downtown Oakland IIRC, which is icky (coming from a former SF resident). East Bay, ugh.

 

[Koschei]

Oh and its not really that much about scores also. Its the whole picture...sigh 🙁 . AOA, MD-PhD, blah blah blah, all helps too. Those programs i mentioned, Harbor, Denver and Highland, all seem to have a riduculous number of well-rounded, over-achieving, probably make medicine their entire lives type of people. Its just kinda intimidating to look at some of these places. I mean, I heard that Denver has residents who are already board-certified in other fields 😱 . MD-PhDs in Harbor. And even getting an interview from Highland and Denver is like finding gold. Its really got to be the location.

 

[Koschei]

Actually Harbor is in Torrance, which isn't quite a beach town but it's just inland of redondo beach. Hollywood is a pretty long commute from Torrance, though I know one doc who does it (about an 60-90 minutes commute depending on traffic). It's definitely the residency closest to the beach in the LA area. Olive View and USC are both quite a bit further inland.

Highland is only one of two programs in the SF bay area, the other being Stanford. Highland is in downtown Oakland IIRC, which is icky (coming from a former SF resident). East Bay, ugh.

Yeah Oakland is pretty nasty. I would personally rather live in Palo Alto.

 

[PluckyDuk8]

How competitve are the Chicago programs in comparison to other locations?

 

[Sessamoid]

I mean, I heard that Denver has residents who are already board-certified in other fields 😱 .

Previous training isn't really an indicator of how competitive a program is. It's more an indication of the philosophy of the program director and chairman at that institution. My residency made it a point to look favorably on those with previous training, since we weren't as dependent upon the Medicare subsidy financially. My class had one MD/PhD and also a boarded internist who coincidentally was an IM attending where I went to medical school. He's now practicing EM one county down from me.

The class after me had a boarded pediatrician and a boarded FP, who was faculty at a well-known FM program previously.

 

[EMDrMoe]

Some guys at my school started a Doctors Against Drunk Driving club. Does anyone else think this is ridiculous? They're just doing it so they have something to put on their apps.

You've got good reason to vent 🙂 I agree with you wholeheartedly that padding your app is a waste of time. I guess I am thinking more along the lines of doing something "extra" that you enjoy (and I DO find it hard to believe that DADD is at all interesting!!). Plus, well rounded is good - no one wants a colleague that is so bound up in work that they have no friends, family, hobbies, etc. Whatever your hobby is, it's fodder for interview talk.

 

[EMDrMoe]

Oh, one more question:
Does anyone know any students who matched in EM with less than 200? Feel free to PM me. Thanks in advance 🙂

 

[Apollyon]

Oh, one more question:
Does anyone know any students who matched in EM with less than 200? Feel free to PM me. Thanks in advance 🙂

I know of 2.

 

[flighterdoc]

I would agree with Desperado and Sessamoid on a few points. I really seems that the most competitive programs out there are mostly because of a combination of location and quality. Thats probably why 3 of the most competitive places out west are Denver (mountains) Highland (bay) and Harbor (hollywood). Granted these programs are all legendary as far as training, but it doesnt hurt to live in a pretty place. These are the programs that having scores in the 250s are gonna help alot. And there are plenty of other great programs that are not as competitive simply because they are geographically-challenged.

Harbor? Harbor-UCLA? Thats not exactly NEAR Hollywood, especially in LA terms.

 

[indymed]

With board scores and rotation grades being the main criteria, how much do 1st and 2nd year course grades matter in attaining the desired ED residency? What is a good GPA to shoot for?

 

[DrQuinn]

What is a good GPA to shoot for?

Are you really going to study less if you get that 85% that we quote? 1/2nd year grades are pretty far down the list, just dont' screw up and end up being the bottom ranked person in your class.

 

[margaritaboy]

It's not that I'm not interested in ER. But I personally cringe when I think of joining the ER interest group or any other clubs. I know I want to be an ER doc. Do I really need to join a club to show this? I'm worried that not doing this stuff is going to haunt me but I just want my free time to be just that, free. Some guys at my school started a Doctors Against Drunk Driving club. Does anyone else think this is ridiculous? They're just doing it so they have something to put on their apps. That's like having a group called Doctors Against Murder. I would rather watch TV then start a club that's going to eat up what little free time I have.

I'm just venting.

If it makes you feel any better about application pading, I didn't join any interest groups, student goverment, or volunteer in an orphanage. I still got lots of interviews and wound up going where I wanted.

 

[EMDrMoe]

I know of 2.

Thanks 🙂 I just wanted to know if it COULD be done. Stats don't matter if you're "the one".

 

[pimpdogg]

If it makes you feel any better about application pading, I didn't join any interest groups, student goverment, or volunteer in an orphanage. I still got lots of interviews and wound up going where I wanted.

That does make me feel better.

 

[indymed]

Are you really going to study less if you get that 85% that we quote? 1/2nd year grades are pretty far down the list, just dont' screw up and end up being the bottom ranked person in your class.

So....what? Like a 3.0, 3.2, 3.8? A good solid number would help me a lot. This is more just to ease my mind rather than actual use as a goal.

 

[raptor5]

Indymed as one of your classmates I have to say you need to relax, the road ahead is far too stressful to worry about this now. What if you change your mind on EM and your target GPA is too low. To ease your mind I say a 4.0

 

[indymed]

Your absolutely right Raptor. But I'm afraid my paranoia won't stop till I've attained a residency spot. But at least for now I can focus on just getting through orientation alive.

 

[joaquin13]

hi all,

i just got my 1st rotation grade for EM, and it was a pass, not a high pass, just a pass. i am shocked! I felt like I worked my butt off, and got an excellent SLOR from a faculty there. Is this going to hurt me??! IT was my first EM rotation, and I am doing another one.?! I am really upset about this, I had no idea. Any advice?

 

[Scrubbs]

i just got my 1st rotation grade for EM, and it was a pass, not a high pass, just a pass. i am shocked! I felt like I worked my butt off, and got an excellent SLOR from a faculty there. Is this going to hurt me??! IT was my first EM rotation, and I am doing another one.?! I am really upset about this, I had no idea. Any advice?

Talk to the attending in charge of the rotation or the PD. Be very professional about it and ask for honest feedback and criticism as to why you only received a pass - and that you are planning on applying EM. Also ask what you can do to improve in your future rotations. It may have been an oversight, or maybe there was something you didn't realize. Either way, talk to them. Not easy, but will likely be worth it. Also shows good character to be able to calmly discuss what you can do to improve 😳

 

[Scrubbs]

I also just wanted to comment on board scores and all this nonsense...

First off, this conversation goes around every year... there is no perfect application or candidate. Even the person who looks wonderful on paper with AOA, 250's, and every award in the book can be a bore in person that no one wants to work with. That may even be reflected in their SLOR's...

I did not do particularly well on Step I. Barely mean. My Step II was much improved, but nothing stellar. I had average 1st/2ndyear grades and high pass/honors for all my clinicals. Strong LOR's and a few small EM research projects (none of which were completed/presented for apps). I applied to 33 places and was granted interviews at 23 or something. I wanted to stay East Coast and interviewed Rhode Island to New Orleans... Got my number 1 without problem and am still very happy. 😀

So... the point is that even without stellar board scores it is more than possible to get a good EM position. Good luck to everyone and STOP FREAKING!!!