Sticker Shock... Holy crap.

[thesmartazz]

I just got a finaid package in the mail, and aside from $24.5K in the form of a unit loan (yay... ), I got significantly less grant-based financial aid than I did during undergraduate. I'm having a hard time even processing the sheer scope of the money involved in financing my medical education right now, but I have one specific question.

On top of the unit loan and meager grant-based aid, it appears that my expected parental contribution is $5K/year more than what is expected of me from my senior year of undergrad. Have most of you found the same to be true? If so, is the discrepancy as large?

This is my first medical school finaid package, so I don't really have much ability to compare yet. Thanks!

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[GreenShirt]

I think there's a life time limit on how much Federal Aid you get, so if you took out a lot as an undergrad, you might be entitled to less as Med student. You can take out private loans to cover the extra, but their interest rates are usually double.

 

[HumbleMD]

I'm with you on the sticker shock. The whole concept of 1/4 million dollars in debt is really starting to scare me. And yes, my EFC was significantly larger than back in undergrad.

 

[GreenShirt]

I guessing that 80% of med students have to take out the full amount. Unless your parents are wealthy or you have big savings, you're stuck in that boat with almost everyine else. Given that this is the case for most Dr.s, I'm assuming that it's possible to pay it off, since all thoughs that have gone before us have. I try not to worry about it too much.

 

[Droopy Snoopy]

Sticker shock... wouldn't it be hysterical if you went down to the financial aid office and tried to negotiate it like you would for buying a car? "Dammit I'm not paying for this Biostatistics course! You guys can send it back to the factory for all I care!"

 

[Gut Shot]

Given that this is the case for most Dr.s, I'm assuming that it's possible to pay it off, since all thoughs that have gone before us have.

I'm afraid every year we tread further into uncharted waters...

 

[psipsina]

I'm afraid every year we tread further into uncharted waters...

It'd be interesting to see how much of this change is due to an higher percentage of kids paying for tuition with loans (i.e. more kids who don't have the bank of daddy at their disposal) and how much is due to rising tuition. My gut says that more kids go to medschool these days from less affluent families than 20+ years ago but my gut has been wrong before.

 

[ahhh123]

Yeh i've talked to many current med students and almost all of them have to take out loans (no parental support or scholarship). Med schools don't give much grant at all if any. You're probably gonna see a similar trend for your other packages...good luck!

 

[p9142]

I'm afraid every year we tread further into uncharted waters...

 

[ScalpelHands]

You're not accounting for inflation. The way Dubya is managing the economy, $250k won't be all that much in 10+ years. Buy commodities lol.

 

[p9142]

You're not accounting for inflation. The way Dubya is managing the economy, $250k won't be all that much in 10+ years. Buy commodities lol.

It's funny that you mention this because I was just thinking the same thing. If Dumbya keeps running the country into the ground maybe having the debt won't be that bad because the dollars will be worthless anyways.

 

[aspirationMD]

I wonder what that would mean for a person who has a EFC of 0? Would there still be a lack of grants?

I had no idea there was a certain amount of aid you could over spend on, maybe I should start declining aid now, in order to have some later! ek!

 

[p9142]

I wonder what that would mean for a person who has a EFC of 0? Would there still be a lack of grants?

I had no idea there was a certain amount of aid you could over spend on, maybe I should start declining aid now, in order to have some later! ek!

I don't understand why people on SDN keep bring up EFC. The federal EFC is totally meaningless for medical school unless it is over $30k. Medical school is graduate school, so your parents incomes don't contribue to your EFC. The vast majority of medical students have an EFC of 0, and still have to take out max loans.

 

[psipsina]

I wonder what that would mean for a person who has a EFC of 0? Would there still be a lack of grants?

I had no idea there was a certain amount of aid you could over spend on, maybe I should start declining aid now, in order to have some later! ek!

EFC = 0 means that you get the max subsidized stafford amount possible (8,500 i think). EFC = 60,000 means no institutional need based aid, more unsubsidized loans. When the budget (= tuition & expenses as defined by a school) > max govt loans available (38.5K) then you take out private loans which have higher interest rates and require creditworthyness/cosigners. EFC just determines if you get subsidized loans (not acruing interest while in school) or need based aid for your institution. Everyone can take out the 38K from the govt, just some will pay more interest on it. Also everyone is responsible for covering anything above 38K (and many schools have a tuition alone above that mark) either from their parents or private loans.

 

[aspirationMD]

I don't understand why people on SDN keep bring up EFC. The federal EFC is totally meaningless for medical school unless it is over $30k. Medical school is graduate school, so your parents incomes don't contribue to your EFC. The vast majority of medical students have an EFC of 0, and still have to take out max loans.

Because I obviously didn't know. People don't normally ask questions if they know the answer.

 

[tthorst]

I don't understand why people on SDN keep bring up EFC. The federal EFC is totally meaningless for medical school unless it is over $30k. Medical school is graduate school, so your parents incomes don't contribue to your EFC. The vast majority of medical students have an EFC of 0, and still have to take out max loans.

Well I'm out of luck because my husband and I have an EFC of 30K! Oh well, where there is a will there is a way. Yes, I don't like the idea of having all of the debt behind me, but to live my dream it is well worth it!

 

[p9142]

Because I obviously didn't know. People don't normally ask questions if they know the answer.

Yeah, I re-read that and it seemed like I was trying to bash you for your statement. Sorry about that, I didn't mean to do that at all. What I should have said was that EFC is a totally different ballgame for med school blah blah blah.

Oh yeah, and SDN has some of the most incredibly misleading and sometime totally false financial information available on the net. Personally, I think that financial aid and student finances should be one of the largest concerns discussed on this forum. Unfortunately, anytime someone posts a financial question to the pre-med or the allo forum, it immediately gets moved to financial aid, where very few read or respond. You will notice that the last post on almost all these threads reads: "Moving to financial aid forum"

I don't really have any solution to this issue, but I will caution that you should research financial aid stuff on your own instead of going to SDN for advice.

 

[kdburton]

I'm afraid every year we tread further into uncharted waters...

Is that adjusted for inflation?

 

[moomix906]

I don't understand why people on SDN keep bring up EFC. The federal EFC is totally meaningless for medical school unless it is over $30k. Medical school is graduate school, so your parents incomes don't contribue to your EFC. The vast majority of medical students have an EFC of 0, and still have to take out max loans.

Every school I interviewed at uses the FAFSA, and will consider your parent's wealth to help determine your 'resources'...aka, how much they supposedly don't need to help you. Unless you are non-traditional - then apparently the game changes.

 

[stiffany]

Every school I interviewed at uses the FAFSA, and will consider your parent's wealth to help determine your 'resources'...aka, how much they supposedly don't need to help you. Unless you are non-traditional - then apparently the game changes.

Even if you're a non-traditional student, you still have to submit parental information unless your parents are dead or out of the picture entirely with proof (and therefore not available...)

 

[p9142]

Every school I interviewed at uses the FAFSA, and will consider your parent's wealth to help determine your 'resources'...aka, how much they supposedly don't need to help you. Unless you are non-traditional - then apparently the game changes.

This is correct, but your EFC doesn not include your parents finances. The EFC is computed using a federal formula which doesn't include any parental income for students in medical schools. Many medical schools take your parents finances into account and add that to the EFC.

 

[moomix906]

This is correct, but your EFC doesn not include your parents finances. The EFC is computed using a federal formula which doesn't include any parental income for students in medical schools. Many medical schools take your parents finances into account and add that to the EFC.

I agree, you're technically accurate. But most schools generally use EFC to refer to you + your parents, and also when you fill out the FAFSA, even as a post graduate program applicant, the EFC number that the FAFSA spits out for you is the EFC if you were an undergraduate - even if that is not what you really are. So I guess what I'm saying is...all of this is just stupid??

 

[Angelique]

I just got the $24.5 K unit loan letter as well. (AHHH!)

To answer the OP's question, my parental + student contribution was $7,995 higher than the numbers I got when plugging in my family's numbers into the financial aid calculator at www.finaid.org and labeling myself as a "dependent." It was also approximately 5K higher than my undergraduate EFC as well.

 

[diosa428]

Last year, the schools that I got into gave me a parental contribution ranging from $3,000 to $21,000. I don't really think there's a method to the madness - most schools do not give out much, if any, scholarship money. Yes, there are people here and there that get significant scholarships, but for the average accepted applicant, you are looking at lots of loans. And I think that most schools don't actually expect your parents to contribute - they will send you info to take out loans to cover the whole package.

 

[aspirationMD]

Yeah, I re-read that and it seemed like I was trying to bash you for your statement. Sorry about that, I didn't mean to do that at all. What I should have said was that EFC is a totally different ballgame for med school blah blah blah.

Oh yeah, and SDN has some of the most incredibly misleading and sometime totally false financial information available on the net. Personally, I think that financial aid and student finances should be one of the largest concerns discussed on this forum. Unfortunately, anytime someone posts a financial question to the pre-med or the allo forum, it immediately gets moved to financial aid, where very few read or respond. You will notice that the last post on almost all these threads reads: "Moving to financial aid forum"

I don't really have any solution to this issue, but I will caution that you should research financial aid stuff on your own instead of going to SDN for advice.

It's alright .. so, I didn't even realize there was a fin aid section on here. I'll definitely search out more info about it, because that is a main concern for me. I doubt highly, that my boyfriend is gonna support me through school for 4 years (he's heard too many horror stories about friends doing that and then the other person splits when they graduate!)

Would FAFSA have that kind of info, or the schools?

 

[tkatchev]

I wonder if those statistics include people getting loans from family. My parents are loaning me enough money to cover my medical school, interest free of course. I will, however, being the wonderful son I am, pay it back with interest to help in their retirement years.

 

[psipsina]

It's alright .. so, I didn't even realize there was a fin aid section on here. I'll definitely search out more info about it, because that is a main concern for me. I doubt highly, that my boyfriend is gonna support me through school for 4 years (he's heard too many horror stories about friends doing that and then the other person splits when they graduate!)

Would FAFSA have that kind of info, or the schools?

No one needs to support you. Regardless of your EFC you will be offered enough loans to cover your tuition and enough money to live (albeit frugally). EFC only determins subsidized vs unsubsidized for government loans and your institution will use it to decide if you qualify for need based aid. Everyone can take out 38.5K/ year in govt loans and there are many private loans to cover anything above this depending on your schools budget. You can only take out as much as your schools budget but that includes living expenses etc.

 

[psipsina]

I just got the $24.5 K unit loan letter as well. (AHHH!)

To answer the OP's question, my parental + student contribution was $7,995 higher than the numbers I got when plugging in my family's numbers into the financial aid calculator at www.finaid.org and labeling myself as a "dependent." It was also approximately 5K higher than my undergraduate EFC as well.

Your EFC really doesn't effect much of anything except weather you get a need based scholarship. I bugged out too when I saw my EFC was 17K first year because I had worked two years before medschool, I called my school and they explained that you can still take out a full load of loans regardless of your EFC.

 

[Schaden Freud]

No, those statistics cover REAL loans.

I wonder if those statistics include people getting loans from family. My parents are loaning me enough money to cover my medical school, interest free of course. I will, however, being the wonderful son I am, pay it back with interest to help in their retirement years.

 

[JDWflash44]

Yeh i've talked to many current med students and almost all of them have to take out loans (no parental support or scholarship). Med schools don't give much grant at all if any. You're probably gonna see a similar trend for your other packages...good luck!

Depends on which school you go to. Choose wisely, me and my two roomates combined get paid $23,000 a year from the school we go to ($17000 for one of us and 3000 for the other too) on top of free tuition for all of us. $$ should be a big factor in your decision; you're goin to learn the same stuff at most schools.

 

[4whom]

It'd be interesting to see how much of this change is due to an higher percentage of kids paying for tuition with loans (i.e. more kids who don't have the bank of daddy at their disposal) and how much is due to rising tuition. My gut says that more kids go to medschool these days from less affluent families than 20+ years ago but my gut has been wrong before.

They did a study awhile back in ontario that showed about a 25% drop in enrollment in students that came from families making less than the national average .

 

[aspirationMD]

No one needs to support you. Regardless of your EFC you will be offered enough loans to cover your tuition and enough money to live (albeit frugally). EFC only determins subsidized vs unsubsidized for government loans and your institution will use it to decide if you qualify for need based aid. Everyone can take out 38.5K/ year in govt loans and there are many private loans to cover anything above this depending on your schools budget. You can only take out as much as your schools budget but that includes living expenses etc.

yeah I wasn't meaning to support me "literally", he probably wouldn't any more then, then he is now lol

Still all this is making me crazy just thinking about it. How easy/difficult is it to get a scholarship?

 

[psipsina]

yeah I wasn't meaning to support me "literally", he probably wouldn't any more then, then he is now lol

Still all this is making me crazy just thinking about it. How easy/difficult is it to get a scholarship?

No where near as easy as UG. Full rides are way less common than partial scholarships. I get 6K/year at my state school, total budget =36k/year. The big private schools have more dough to throw around in general, but you have to have pretty high stats to get an academic scholarship at most of these institutions. State schools (even w/o scholarship) can be a great way to save money depending on your state if you don't get scholarships elsewhere. Apply broadly and take the best package you are offered.

 

[IceMan0824]

I'm afraid every year we tread further into uncharted waters...

I love how this graph has no legend but everyone seems to understand the point of the graph.
A bunch of mind (graph) readers we are.

 

[trainride]

I wonder what that would mean for a person who has a EFC of 0? Would there still be a lack of grants?

I had no idea there was a certain amount of aid you could over spend on, maybe I should start declining aid now, in order to have some later! ek!

Don't decline aid now so you can get it later. From what I understand you accept it or its gone. However, you can accept it and put it into a savings account for a rainy day. Stafford loan limits are app. 138K so you can approximate how much private loans you will need after the federal money is gone. Sorry if this has already been talked about but I did not feel like reading further.

 

[Gut Shot]

Is that adjusted for inflation?

I doubt it. Even if it's not, this handy inflation calculator tells me that $30,000 in 1985 (the earliest point on the chart) would only be about $56,000 in 2006 dollars.

The undeniable conclusion is that the cost of med school has far outpaced inflation. Every year a new generation of doctors graduates with a debt level that is unprecedented.

 

[Gut Shot]

I love how this graph has no legend but everyone seems to understand the point of the graph.
A bunch of mind (graph) readers we are.

Here is the source of the graph (a Medscape article).

Figure 4. Average indebtedness of medical students. Source: AAMC Data Book 2004.

 

[pyrois]

I don't understand why people on SDN keep bring up EFC. The federal EFC is totally meaningless for medical school unless it is over $30k. Medical school is graduate school, so your parents incomes don't contribue to your EFC. The vast majority of medical students have an EFC of 0, and still have to take out max loans.

I understand the whole "I'm going to speak down to you because I know more," but who started the trend of "I'm going to speak down to you even though I know bull crap"

Medical school is graduate school, you're right, but for medical school they use the same calculation as usual, except they still count you as dependent.

There's the "institutional" method, and the "federal" method, each yielding very similar results. The institutional method is the one used by most private schools and tweak the federal calculation ever so slightly.

But, for the most part, your EFC does matter, just not the one spit out by the FAFSA. You can redo the calculation as dependent to see what you'll have to pay in med school by using one of those FAFSA estimators online.

 

[kakashi74]

Even if you're a non-traditional student, you still have to submit parental information unless your parents are dead or out of the picture entirely with proof (and therefore not available...)

I thought since medical school was graduate school you do NOT have to enter parental information. This also applies if you were born before a certain year (1984 i think..)

 

[psipsina]

I thought since medical school was graduate school you do NOT have to enter parental information. This also applies if you were born before a certain year (1984 i think..)

You don't have to submit it for federal purposes, however some individual schools require parental information to determine if you qualify for institutional aid (grants/scholarships), so many people end up submitting their parental info to the fasfa anyways. Everyone qualifies for the max govt loans, so it doesn't impact this at all, but it can change institutional aid.

 

[Kateb4]

Even if you're a non-traditional student, you still have to submit parental information unless your parents are dead or out of the picture entirely with proof (and therefore not available...)

Actually, even as an undergrad you don't have to submit parental information on the FAFSA. I haven't for the last 3 years at least, and my school has never requested anything of the sort. I don't know what the exact stipulations are for grant monies, but I just checked the FAFSA website and it says that you only need parental info if you are a dependent student. So, only if they are claiming you on their taxes, then you need their info.

 

[peezyweezy]

. Choose wisely, me and my two roomates combined get paid $23,000 a year from the school we go to ($17000 for one of us and 3000 for the other too) on top of free tuition for all of us. $$ should be a big factor in your decision; you're goin to learn the same stuff at most schools.

how does that work out???

 

[Mixtli]

Just be glad you don't need to pay around 450K (post-grad), 800K (10 year total) in debt like one med student I know.

My 200K (post-grad), 360K (total) expected is always breathing down my neck. If I match into family practice, psychiatry, PMR, I'm screwed.

 

[JDWflash44]

how does that work out???

Our school is very generous with grants/scholaships. Me and one of my roomates got free tuition and then we have summer research blocks that are required where we get paid 3K and then my other roomate got free tuition plus an md/phd-like stipend that covers all of his tuition plus pays him like 1700 a month from the school, so its actually probably more like 20K a year for him. The aid varies but I think the average scholarship for our school is like 20K a year. But, its also a 5 year program (a research year is stipend support for everyone).

 

[p9142]

Medical school is graduate school, you're right, but for medical school they use the same calculation as usual, except they still count you as dependent.

^^^^^^^ Another example of incorrect financial aid information disseminated on SDN. From here you will see that:

For federal student financial aid purposes, you are considered independent if you can answer Yes to any of the following questions:

.
.
.
.
At the beginning of the school year 2007-2008, will you be working on a master's or doctorate program (such as an MA, MBA, MD, JD, Ph.D., Ed.D., graduate certificate, etc.)?
.
.
.
Also from here you can see what the EFC is:
The information you reported on the Free Application for Federal Student Aid (FAFSA) is used to calculate your EFC. The school uses the EFC to determine your federal student aid eligibility and financial aid award.

Note: Your EFC is not the amount that your family will have to pay for college nor is it the amount of federal student aid that you will receive. It is a number used by the school to calculate the amount that your family will be expected to pay for college and the amount of federal student aid you are eligible to receive.

There's the "institutional" method, and the "federal" method, each yielding very similar results. The institutional method is the one used by most private schools and tweak the federal calculation ever so slightly.

But, for the most part, your EFC does matter, just not the one spit out by the FAFSA. You can redo the calculation as dependent to see what you'll have to pay in med school by using one of those FAFSA estimators online.

Wrong again. The federal method will come up with 0 EFC for medical students unless they are working the year before medical school, or have significant assets and are not allowed to file the 1040A or 1040EZ. There are not two EFC numbers. The only EFC is what is spit out by the FAFSA.

 

[Angelique]

Tensions have risen on this thread. Here is what I have gathered:

1. p9142 is correct. FAFSA considers MD candidates as independents. p9142 is using strictly the formal definition of what an EFC is, namely the student contribution.

2. Pyrois is correct. Medical schools still expect to see a parental contribution regardless of dependency/independency when applying for aid (except in very specific instances).

3. Pyrois is using the term EFC in a loose sense to refer to student contribution + parental contribution calculations. In the undergrad world, this figure would be termed "expected family contribution," however in the med world, this term is omitted because in reality the federal calculation only includes student contribution.

4. Pyrois also mentioned that "You can redo the calculation as dependent to see what you'll have to pay in med school by using one of those FAFSA estimators online." I know that Yale encourages using this method to estimate parental contribution (Source: http://www.med.yale.edu/education/finaid/estimator/index.html). What pyrois means is that the calculator is a estimate to see if you qualify for university scholarship funds.

 

[aspirationMD]

Tensions have risen on this thread. Here is what I have gathered:

1. p9142 is correct. FAFSA considers MD candidates as independents. p9142 is using strictly the formal definition of what an EFC is, namely the student contribution.

2. Pyrois is correct. Medical schools still expect to see a parental contribution regardless of dependency/independency when applying for aid (except in very specific instances).

3. Pyrois is using the term EFC in a loose sense to refer to student contribution + parental contribution calculations. In the undergrad world, this figure would be termed "expected family contribution," however in the med world, this term is omitted because in reality the federal calculation only includes student contribution.

4. Pyrois also mentioned that "You can redo the calculation as dependent to see what you'll have to pay in med school by using one of those FAFSA estimators online." I know that Yale encourages using this method to estimate parental contribution (Source: http://www.med.yale.edu/education/finaid/estimator/index.html). What pyrois means is that the calculator is a estimate to see if you qualify for university scholarship funds.

Are you saying med schools expect my dirt poor parents to contribute money for a 28 yr olds college education? If so, that is evil.

 

[QuakerPreMed]

Are you saying med schools expect my dirt poor parents to contribute money for a 28 yr olds college education? If so, that is evil.

Welcome to the big show.

 

[GeauxMD]

Depends on which school you go to. Choose wisely, me and my two roomates combined get paid $23,000 a year from the school we go to ($17000 for one of us and 3000 for the other too) on top of free tuition for all of us. $$ should be a big factor in your decision; you're goin to learn the same stuff at most schools.

Wow, that is sweet. I wish I had applied there.

 

[GeauxMD]

I'm afraid every year we tread further into uncharted waters...

When is someone going to do something about this?