Stigma surrounding med students that don't want to do medicine

[deleted1045228]

I want to elaborate on a topic that has been on my mind for quite a while now. This might be a little bit of a rant, so I apologize in advance. However, I hope that this sparks some conversation and thought on a topic that is very, very real.

There are hundreds and possibly thousands of medical students out there that have lost interest in the field/industry, or realize it is not their true passion. In my own experience, I never really had an interest in attending medical school or being a traditional physician. But, due to a variety of different factors (parental pressure, med opens a lot of doors down the line, etc.) I decided on coming to med school. These very same influences are what prompted other students to begin and remain in medical school. Withdrawing and pursuing other interests, albeit a very straightforward and obvious option, is not that easy. For many, this comes with societal and academic repercussions (shunned by family, significant decrease in possible career choices, etc.). I find medicine incredibly interesting and I enjoy learning it, but I have no interest in keeping this as my sole career.

I think what is most bothersome to me is the lack of empathy and, to be completely honest, toxic responses that these students receive from peers, professors, or even other medical professionals. A large majority fall in the realm of “leave if you don’t like it because you’ll be more miserable in the future”. Although this is a very valid point, it is just not realistic most of the time. The time and money invested, as well as the emphasis on the prestige and opportunities that arise from getting an M.D. clashing with this disinterest creates an internal struggle that has a profound effect on mental health and self-esteem. It becomes a situation where the benefits outweigh the risks and temporary struggles. Many do not see value in dealing with those risks, but there is a good portion of students (such as myself) that do see the value and are committed, just not enough to be entirely indebted to the industry.

I write this specific post not to justify my choice or seek advice on what to do, but to shed light on an issue that is very real. I also want to end the toxic responses from (again, being very honest here) elitist and self-serving medical professionals. My research through SDN threads of a similar nature has led to me seeing attendings, fellows, and faculty all saying “Leave because you’re taking the spot of someone that is more interested”. Being a physician is not an end all be all job in this industry, and it’s sad that medical school institutions only emphasize patient care as the golden ticket to success. Yes, patient care is an integral part of being a healthcare professional, but you can get your M.D. and still be a solid professional of a different discipline.

I seriously do hope that medical schools are able to recognize that physician work is not the only thing out there in the industry. It may be what 95% of medical school students want to do, but there is the silent 5% that have other medical and non-clinical related interests that institutions should foster and encourage exploration of; be it through more holistic advising or more student organizations dealing with such a thing. It is medical school after all, not physician school. For example, I love the prospect of clinical psychology or mental health counseling. Finding time and resources that will begin my training in these fields WHILE going through med school curriculum is tough- especially when all of our advising is relentless counseling on going into one of the major residency areas.

I encourage you all to think about your stance on an issue like this and what you would say to a student of this nature if they came to you.

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[theonlytycrane]

In my own experience, I never really had an interest in attending medical school or being a traditional physician. But, due to a variety of different factors (parental pressure, med opens a lot of doors down the line, etc.) I decided on coming to med school.

Don't let family / friends / SDN pressure you into going into a "mainstream" or "competitive" field if thats not where your heart is.

 

[deleted889094]

I might be missing something, but why not get a Phd if you like medicine but not clinical practice? The two years of rotations seems like a waste of time if someone doesn't want to practice.

 

[ACSurgeon]

I want to elaborate on a topic that has been on my mind for quite a while now. This might be a little bit of a rant, so I apologize in advance. However, I hope that this sparks some conversation and thought on a topic that is very, very real.

There are hundreds and possibly thousands of medical students out there that have lost interest in the field/industry, or realize it is not their true passion. In my own experience, I never really had an interest in attending medical school or being a traditional physician. But, due to a variety of different factors (parental pressure, med opens a lot of doors down the line, etc.) I decided on coming to med school. These very same influences are what prompted other students to begin and remain in medical school. Withdrawing and pursuing other interests, albeit a very straightforward and obvious option, is not that easy. For many, this comes with societal and academic repercussions (shunned by family, significant decrease in possible career choices, etc.). I find medicine incredibly interesting and I enjoy learning it, but I have no interest in keeping this as my sole career.

I think what is most bothersome to me is the lack of empathy and, to be completely honest, toxic responses that these students receive from peers, professors, or even other medical professionals. A large majority fall in the realm of “leave if you don’t like it because you’ll be more miserable in the future”. Although this is a very valid point, it is just not realistic most of the time. The time and money invested, as well as the emphasis on the prestige and opportunities that arise from getting an M.D. clashing with this disinterest creates an internal struggle that has a profound effect on mental health and self-esteem. It becomes a situation where the benefits outweigh the risks and temporary struggles. Many do not see value in dealing with those risks, but there is a good portion of students (such as myself) that do see the value and are committed, just not enough to be entirely indebted to the industry.

I write this specific post not to justify my choice or seek advice on what to do, but to shed light on an issue that is very real. I also want to end the toxic responses from (again, being very honest here) elitist and self-serving medical professionals. My research through SDN threads of a similar nature has led to me seeing attendings, fellows, and faculty all saying “Leave because you’re taking the spot of someone that is more interested”. Being a physician is not an end all be all job in this industry, and it’s sad that medical school institutions only emphasize patient care as the golden ticket to success. Yes, patient care is an integral part of being a healthcare professional, but you can get your M.D. and still be a solid professional of a different discipline.

I seriously do hope that medical schools are able to recognize that physician work is not the only thing out there in the industry. It may be what 95% of medical school students want to do, but there is the silent 5% that have other medical and non-clinical related interests that institutions should foster and encourage exploration of; be it through more holistic advising or more student organizations dealing with such a thing. It is medical school after all, not physician school. For example, I love the prospect of clinical psychology or mental health counseling. Finding time and resources that will begin my training in these fields WHILE going through med school curriculum is tough- especially when all of our advising is relentless counseling on going into one of the major residency areas.

I encourage you all to think about your stance on an issue like this and what you would say to a student of this nature if they came to you.

I think stigma is the wrong word. Medical school opens a lot of doors. The most well defined path for a well paying career for someone with an MD is through residency. It shouldn’t surprise you that residency is the focus of the vast majority of medical students and the main direction any counselor or advisor will guide you.

Most medical students want the safest route to a secure career and doing a residency is it. That’s why they look at you funny if you have other plans.

in real life, you can do whatever you want as an attending. That’s when you truly have options. You can work part time. You can move away from clinical medicine and still come back etc. as a student or resident, doing something “different” than the known training paths (eg combined degree or taking dedicated research time in school or residency) could lead to a lot of financial and career instability.

 

[mehc012]

So, in summary, you're writing in defense of those who have decided to pursue medicine primarily due to pressure, prestige, or momentum and saying that they should not be judged...for succumbing to pressure, ego, and apathy?

I don't really understand your point. Sure, it may be 'not a bad idea' for someone disinterested in medicine to pursue a medical degree, but unless there is some specific alternate goal in mind (medical equipment design, further research, etc), I think that it says a lot about someone to continue down a path they don't like, and I don't see why that shouldn't be taken into account when judging the person.

 

[deleted1045228]

So, in summary, you're writing in defense of those who have decided to pursue medicine primarily due to pressure, prestige, or momentum and saying that they should not be judged...for succumbing to pressure, ego, and apathy?

I don't really understand your point. Sure, it may be 'not a bad idea' for someone disinterested in medicine to pursue a medical degree, but unless there is some specific alternate goal in mind (medical equipment design, further research, etc), I think that it says a lot about someone to continue down a path they don't like, and I don't see why that shouldn't be taken into account when judging the person.

No one should be judged for succumbing to external forces like that. What about when physicians deal with burnout? There are doctors out there that leave the industry 5+ years into practice, because they lose interest or become truly mentally burnt out. There are also a number of doctors that stay and continue to practice despite being burnt out, all because it pays the bills. Would you judge them and ask why they succumbed to their feelings? Or to those that stay despite being burnt out, would you ask them why they continue down a path they truly didn't like and judge them for it?

In regard to your point about setting an alternate goal, many students that encounter their "change of heart moment" while in med school often to have an alternate goal. But they could be at a point where leaving medical school wouldn't be a wise decision (e.g. a third year student with only one year remaining). I'm speaking for those people. As I mentioned in my original post, there needs to be resources in place that deal with not just residency and clinical work- not only for those indifferent students to look into, but for ANYONE that wants to pursue something outside of clinical work.

 

[libertyyne]

1. No one really cares about your true motivation to go to medical school. No one sits around and keeps tally.
2. You may get negative reactions from people who think it is insane to keep on doing something where your heart is not in it. Life is short, being true to yourself is one of the most satisfying and fulfilling aspects of life. When you wake up as an old person in 3 dozen or so years and take stock of your life saying that you went through the motions because of some theoretical parental or social disapproval is probably not a great experience.
3. Sunk cost fallacy, Throwing good money after bad and continuing down long training pathways because you are in medical school doesnt make much logical sense. There is real opportunity cost that is lost not to mention continued costs for schooling and debt. It is a one way ticket to burnout.
4. You may get negative reactions from students and physicans because they think that medicine is awesome. No other career where your are essentially garunteed top decile income while simultaneously helping people and dealing with untold beauty and complexity of the human body.
5. Clinical medicine is not the only thing that physicians do , there are fields where you dont interact with patients like rads , path and even some surgeries where interaction is limited.
6. No one really gives a **** what you do . You do you, if you want to do this because of parental or societal pressure good luck.

Edit: 7: Lastly why would you care what anyone thinks about your motivation to continue through medical school or training ?

 

[deleted1045228]

I might be missing something, but why not get a Phd if you like medicine but not clinical practice? The two years of rotations seems like a waste of time if someone doesn't want to practice.

Should have mentioned this originally, but you bring up a good point. However, I'm not too much of a research oriented person so I feel that a PhD wasn't the right choice for me. I'm looking into the prospect of a PhD in psychology that focuses on clinical/counseling psychology.

 

[Goro]

1. No one really cares about your true motivation to go to medical school. No one sits around and keeps tally.
2. You may get negative reactions from people who think it is insane to keep on doing something where your heart is not in it. Life is short, being true to yourself is one of the most satisfying and fulfilling aspects of life. When you wake up as an old person in 3 dozen or so years and take stock of your life saying that you went through the motions because of some theoretical parental or social disapproval is probably not a great experience.
3. Sunk cost fallacy, Throwing good money after bad and continuing down long training pathways because you are in medical school doesnt make much logical sense. There is real opportunity cost that is lost not to mention continued costs for schooling and debt. It is a one way ticket to burnout.
4. You may get negative reactions from students and physicans because they think that medicine is awesome. No other career where your are essentially garunteed top decile income while simultaneously helping people and dealing with untold beauty and complexity of the human body.
5. Clinical medicine is not the only thing that physicians do , there are fields where you dont interact with patients like rads , path and even some surgeries where interaction is limited.
6. No one really gives a **** what you do . You do you, if you want to do this because of parental or societal pressure good luck.

Edit: 7: Lastly why would you care what anyone thinks about your motivation to continue through medical school or training ?

OP had another post about not wanting to do residency, and didn't react well when advised that an MD is worthless with residency, or to quit while he was ahead.

This thread is, I believe, yet another example of someone coming here for hugs and kisses, not honest advice. They tend to not end well.

I also wouldn't use "stigma" as a descriptor, but "disdain", given how hard one has to work to get into med school and how many people would willingly give up an arm to take that seat that was cheated from them by someone who really didn't know or understand what they were getting into, or didn't have the spine to stand up to Tiger Parents.

Anyway, OP, you stated that you were an MD/PhD student, so transfer into the PhD program, or finish the degree and go into research.

 

[calivianya]

If I’m told what to do, I’m more likely to do the exact opposite just to prove whoever is trying to control me wrong. For someone raised the way I was, it’s hard not to see being so willing to be controlled/influenced by others as a weakness and a failure to become an independent adult. It’s the behavior I would expect from a child/preteen. Most teenagers I grew up with/know have more initiative and independence than this, so it’s hard to take a person like this seriously as an adult.

I only say this to provide the opposite perspective. The way I was raised is the predominant attitude in the United States (at least, in the area I was raised) so I am unsurprised that people who are so submissive, and live in the United States, get a lot of negative feedback over it. I never have and never will verbalize my personal feelings about this to someone struggling because I am aware this is a cultural thing and I try to be tolerant of other cultures, but other people are not always inclined to hold their tongues if they have a strong negative opinion of something.

If I moved somewhere that the dominant culture was to be submissive, I would expect to get the same pushback for being too independent/opinionated. It is what it is.

 

[deleted480308]

I want to elaborate on a topic that has been on my mind for quite a while now. This might be a little bit of a rant, so I apologize in advance. However, I hope that this sparks some conversation and thought on a topic that is very, very real.

There are hundreds and possibly thousands of medical students out there that have lost interest in the field/industry, or realize it is not their true passion. In my own experience, I never really had an interest in attending medical school or being a traditional physician. But, due to a variety of different factors (parental pressure, med opens a lot of doors down the line, etc.) I decided on coming to med school. These very same influences are what prompted other students to begin and remain in medical school. Withdrawing and pursuing other interests, albeit a very straightforward and obvious option, is not that easy. For many, this comes with societal and academic repercussions (shunned by family, significant decrease in possible career choices, etc.). I find medicine incredibly interesting and I enjoy learning it, but I have no interest in keeping this as my sole career.

I think what is most bothersome to me is the lack of empathy and, to be completely honest, toxic responses that these students receive from peers, professors, or even other medical professionals. A large majority fall in the realm of “leave if you don’t like it because you’ll be more miserable in the future”. Although this is a very valid point, it is just not realistic most of the time. The time and money invested, as well as the emphasis on the prestige and opportunities that arise from getting an M.D. clashing with this disinterest creates an internal struggle that has a profound effect on mental health and self-esteem. It becomes a situation where the benefits outweigh the risks and temporary struggles. Many do not see value in dealing with those risks, but there is a good portion of students (such as myself) that do see the value and are committed, just not enough to be entirely indebted to the industry.

I write this specific post not to justify my choice or seek advice on what to do, but to shed light on an issue that is very real. I also want to end the toxic responses from (again, being very honest here) elitist and self-serving medical professionals. My research through SDN threads of a similar nature has led to me seeing attendings, fellows, and faculty all saying “Leave because you’re taking the spot of someone that is more interested”. Being a physician is not an end all be all job in this industry, and it’s sad that medical school institutions only emphasize patient care as the golden ticket to success. Yes, patient care is an integral part of being a healthcare professional, but you can get your M.D. and still be a solid professional of a different discipline.

I seriously do hope that medical schools are able to recognize that physician work is not the only thing out there in the industry. It may be what 95% of medical school students want to do, but there is the silent 5% that have other medical and non-clinical related interests that institutions should foster and encourage exploration of; be it through more holistic advising or more student organizations dealing with such a thing. It is medical school after all, not physician school. For example, I love the prospect of clinical psychology or mental health counseling. Finding time and resources that will begin my training in these fields WHILE going through med school curriculum is tough- especially when all of our advising is relentless counseling on going into one of the major residency areas.

I encourage you all to think about your stance on an issue like this and what you would say to a student of this nature if they came to you.

At some point you have to cowboy up and just do what you are gonna do. Don’t expect everyone to agree and don’t care if they don’t

that said, I disagree with your plan being logical which is fine because as an adult, you don’t need my permission

 

[GoSpursGo]

I want to elaborate on a topic that has been on my mind for quite a while now. This might be a little bit of a rant, so I apologize in advance. However, I hope that this sparks some conversation and thought on a topic that is very, very real.

There are hundreds and possibly thousands of medical students out there that have lost interest in the field/industry, or realize it is not their true passion. In my own experience, I never really had an interest in attending medical school or being a traditional physician. But, due to a variety of different factors (parental pressure, med opens a lot of doors down the line, etc.) I decided on coming to med school. These very same influences are what prompted other students to begin and remain in medical school. Withdrawing and pursuing other interests, albeit a very straightforward and obvious option, is not that easy. For many, this comes with societal and academic repercussions (shunned by family, significant decrease in possible career choices, etc.). I find medicine incredibly interesting and I enjoy learning it, but I have no interest in keeping this as my sole career.

I think what is most bothersome to me is the lack of empathy and, to be completely honest, toxic responses that these students receive from peers, professors, or even other medical professionals. A large majority fall in the realm of “leave if you don’t like it because you’ll be more miserable in the future”. Although this is a very valid point, it is just not realistic most of the time. The time and money invested, as well as the emphasis on the prestige and opportunities that arise from getting an M.D. clashing with this disinterest creates an internal struggle that has a profound effect on mental health and self-esteem. It becomes a situation where the benefits outweigh the risks and temporary struggles. Many do not see value in dealing with those risks, but there is a good portion of students (such as myself) that do see the value and are committed, just not enough to be entirely indebted to the industry.

I write this specific post not to justify my choice or seek advice on what to do, but to shed light on an issue that is very real. I also want to end the toxic responses from (again, being very honest here) elitist and self-serving medical professionals. My research through SDN threads of a similar nature has led to me seeing attendings, fellows, and faculty all saying “Leave because you’re taking the spot of someone that is more interested”. Being a physician is not an end all be all job in this industry, and it’s sad that medical school institutions only emphasize patient care as the golden ticket to success. Yes, patient care is an integral part of being a healthcare professional, but you can get your M.D. and still be a solid professional of a different discipline.

I seriously do hope that medical schools are able to recognize that physician work is not the only thing out there in the industry. It may be what 95% of medical school students want to do, but there is the silent 5% that have other medical and non-clinical related interests that institutions should foster and encourage exploration of; be it through more holistic advising or more student organizations dealing with such a thing. It is medical school after all, not physician school. For example, I love the prospect of clinical psychology or mental health counseling. Finding time and resources that will begin my training in these fields WHILE going through med school curriculum is tough- especially when all of our advising is relentless counseling on going into one of the major residency areas.

I encourage you all to think about your stance on an issue like this and what you would say to a student of this nature if they came to you.

So, I do agree with your first bolded statement. Advisors within academic medicine do too often brand people who choose to leave clinical medicine "sell-outs," "losers," or have no idea what these other pathways entail and thus shouldn't comment on it. It would be beneficial for medical school advisors to at least have some nominal knowledge of these alternative pathways for students who are interested in them.

That said, I also think you're being overly sensitive to some of the responses you've received, and frankly your second bolded comment is just silly--medical school literally trains you to be a physician, and even if you choose not to practice clinical medicine you will still be a physician. It's simply a fact that you will greatly improve your long-term career prospects by at least completing a residency; I get that you’re looking for an off-ramp from clinical medicine ASAP, but unless you are able to line up something specific at the conclusion of Med school, and can somehow get an offer in hand before you even have to apply for the match, choosing to forego residency training altogether is a terrible idea. A clinical psychologist has an entirely different degree with its own unique training, so if that's really what you want to do then you are in fact in the wrong field.

 

[deleted1045228]

OP had another post about not wanting to do residency, and didn't react well when advised that an MD is worthless with residency, or to quit while he was ahead.

This thread is, I believe, yet another example of someone coming here for hugs and kisses, not honest advice. They tend to not end well.

I also wouldn't use "stigma" as a descriptor, but "disdain", given how hard one has to work to get into med school and how many people would willingly give up an arm to take that seat that was cheated from them by someone who really didn't know or understand what they were getting into, or didn't have the spine to stand up to Tiger Parents.

Anyway, OP, you stated that you were an MD/PhD student, so transfer into the PhD program, or finish the degree and go into research.

I am not an MD/PhD student. Just a med student.
I also want to pose a question to you and others that read this. Say I completely forget about my disinterest and carry on through medical school and successfully complete a residency. At the very end of that residency, I decide to forget about practicing or getting a job as a clinician. What are my options at that point (reminder, having successfully completed a residency)? I would like to see some websites or data that show what career options are out there, what percentage of doctors are hired into a given position at that point in their training (M.D. plus residency and no other experience).

 

[tri99]

I want to preface this by saying medicine is not for everyone. There are plenty of people with careers outside of medicine that they are passionate about and can fulfill financial and personal needs. However, these careers are few and far between. As a career changer, I get irritated when dissatisfied medical students make comments such as "I should have just gone into ____ field".

It gives me the impression that the student has no substantial experience in the field and is naive to the challenges and downsides that come with jobs outside of medicine. That or the student intentionally chose to attend medical school knowing they preferred another field. Either way, it is tough to be very sympathetic when you will be "stuck" in a profession that is guaranteed to be mentally stimulating and financially stable. Which is more than 99% of professionals would say about their careers.

 

[deleted849476]

I don't think there is any big, important conclusion to draw from any of this. Can you quit medicine at any time in med school or beyond if you don't want to do it? Sure. And no, other people shouldn't be "toxic" toward you about it, just like they shouldn't be about anything. But also, know that your perspective might be a little defensive because you are wanting to leave, and theirs (or ours in most people's cases here) is gonna sound harsh/on the offense because many of us would kill to get in/stay in medicine over any other career--that's how we got into med school.

Medicine is a professional, terminal degree, it's not like a bachelors where you can truly study anything and then go on to get a masters/doctorate in a completely different thing. There's a bit more of an expectation of you to do something related with it. So, as far as where to draw that line? (Like how you say you want to do "mental health counseling"). Well, to answer your OP question...I'd tell someone in your position, "Be truthful and articulate at your med school interviews that THAT'S why you want to go into medical school," and if adcoms still let you in knowing you probably won't try to get into residency or that specializing isn't a priority to you, then there you go, good for you.

For the record I can't say I agree with even a "silent 5%" wanting something other than residency--sounds way too high; for example, my school's match placement comes out to only a few/year not matching out of a fairly large class (so only 1-2%), and I don't think its because they didn't even apply to match. There may be people who don't want to match and yet they did, despite a loss of interest in medicine or something; maybe they just are going to work as physicians to repay their loans, which I guess I would get.. But who wouldn't be miserable at that point, which puts pts, colleagues, and the profession in danger and is hardly an unbiased position to be in when it comes to trying to convince everyone else that "some people go into medicine to not do medicine." Harsh, I know, but truly, you deserve to do something that makes you happy, and you might feel you don't have to concern yourself with other people's feelings, but by taking away another deserving applicant's seat, you just created 2 miserable people whereas if you hadn't gone to school there would be 2 satisfied ones.

Also clinical psych and mental health counseling have their own educational pathways, so yeah, I'm at a loss for what's the point here. You'd get a masters, PhD or even just a bachelors (say biomedical engineering) if you wanted to do the stuff surrounding medicine but not clinical practice. I guess to be blunt, I don't think it's as reasonable as you say to go into medicine to not practice medicine, outside of an MD/PhD in very specific circumstances.

 

[Goro]

I am not an MD/PhD student. Just a med student.
I also want to pose a question to you and others that read this. Say I completely forget about my disinterest and carry on through medical school and successfully complete a residency. At the very end of that residency, I decide to forget about practicing or getting a job as a clinician. What are my options at that point (reminder, having successfully completed a residency)? I would like to see some websites or data that show what career options are out there, what percentage of doctors are hired into a given position at that point in their training (M.D. plus residency and no other experience).

My apologies; your OP in the other thread had your status listed as MD/PhD.

The wise @gyngyn has already posted a list of things you can do with your degree and training that aren't directly related to being a physician.

EDIT: thanks to my good young colleague M&L, I found this:

8 Jobs After Medical School Without Residency - TheMDJourney

Are you looking for jobs after medical school without residency you can consider taking as a medical career? We've listed plenty of them here so read on!

themdjourney.com

You can always teach, for starters.

 

[M&L]

Oh , also you can go get a law degree (after MD degree) and do malpractice things ....

 

[GreenDuck12]

For future readers, the key takeaway from this thread is do not let others pressure you into pursuing any career path. Any associated prestige or chance at a higher income simply isn’t worth it if you think you’ll be miserable as a doctor.

 

[7331poas]

I actually agree with OP to an extent. I think med school is a great route, even if you don't particularly care about medicine or patients. The pay is incredibly good and there are plenty of opportunities for business-savvy individuals. However, I think the only way you are going to be able to get through the training is if you are a non-trad who has worked a "real job" in the past and can realize how terrible things are for people outside of medicine. Otherwise you will spend 10 years thinking "I wish I was an investment banker living on the beaches of San Diego making 500k/yr".

 

[kb1900]

I actually agree with OP to an extent. I think med school is a great route, even if you don't particularly care about medicine or patients. The pay is incredibly good and there are plenty of opportunities for business-savvy individuals. However, I think the only way you are going to be able to get through the training is if you are a non-trad who has worked a "real job" in the past and can realize how terrible things are for people outside of medicine. Otherwise you will spend 10 years thinking "I wish I was an investment banker living on the beaches of San Diego making 500k/yr".

You don’t need to be a non trad to have worked before medical school. You also don’t need to be completely naive to succumb to the grass us always greener mentality

 

[Dave1980]

Don't go to med school if you don't want to practice medicine. What kind of 500k (and 4 wasted years) door is your MD opening lol?

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

You don’t need to be a non trad to have worked before medical school.

Someone who had another career or a full time job between college and med school or between high school and college is by definition non-trad.

 

[kb1900]

Someone who had another career or a full time job between college and med school or between high school and college is by definition non-trad.

I worked full time in college and most summers before that. So did plenty of my classmates. We aren’t nontrad though because we didn’t take “time off”. At least this was my understanding when I applied 4 years ago unless things have changed

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I worked full time in college and most summers before that. So did plenty of my classmates. We aren’t nontrad though because we didn’t take “time off”. At least this was my understanding when I applied 4 years ago unless things have changed

I think if you had a full time job that wasn’t like a work study or something then a lot of people would probably still consider you non-trad. I would anyway.

 

[LunaOri]

If counseling is your passion, it would make sense to (1) leave medical school prior to clinical rotations, and pursue a PsyD (psychology degree with an emphasis on doing therapy) or other counseling degree such as MSW or (2) finish medical school and do a residency in psychiatry, being careful to choose a program that emphasizes therapy rather than med management (hard to find, but maybe possible).

 

[ACSurgeon]

If counseling is your passion, it would make sense to (1) leave medical school prior to clinical rotations, and pursue a PsyD (psychology degree with an emphasis on doing therapy) or other counseling degree such as MSW or (2) finish medical school and do a residency in psychiatry, being careful to choose a program that emphasizes therapy rather than med management (hard to find, but maybe possible).

how would someone know that something is their passion without having done it? Also, how often do our passions for in life change?

Skimming through the OP I got the sense that he didn’t wanna work with patients. If that’s not the case, finishing two clinical years of med school and 3-4 years of residency is a thousand times better than dropping out to go back from scratch only to get a job with less options/pay/stability.

i can understand students and residents and even attendings burning out because of the intensity of the path or job. For anyone who can make it through training, you should be able to find an easy job (40 hours a week) making more than most 40-hour week jobs while doing something more meaningful.

 

[tri99]

how would someone know that something is their passion without having done it? Also, how often do our passions for in life change?

Skimming through the OP I got the sense that he didn’t wanna work with patients. If that’s not the case, finishing two clinical years of med school and 3-4 years of residency is a thousand times better than dropping out to go back from scratch only to get a job with less options/pay/stability.

i can understand students and residents and even attendings burning out because of the intensity of the path or job. For anyone who can make it through training, you should be able to find an easy job (40 hours a week) making more than most 40-hour week jobs while doing something more meaningful.

This. It's impossible to know if one is passionate about something without doing it. For 20+ years I was infatuated with the idea of being an athletic director for a major university. It only took 1 mind-numbing month to realize I would be miserable cold-calling donors and filling out spreadsheets for the rest of my life.

This is why it's so important for people to get extended exposure to a field before committing to it, especially medicine. The time / financial commitment is too great to pursue it without understanding the daily obligations you are committing to.

 

[deleted889094]

OP, why do you feel the need to justify your actions to other people? It seems like caring too much about what others think is one of your self-admitted reasons for pursuing a degree you didn't necessarily want.

Maybe just stop caring if people disagree with your life choices.

 

[SteyrFWB]

Michael Crichton said "about two weeks into medical school I realized I hated it. This isn't unusual since everyone hates medical school – even happy, practicing physicians."
He continued to write about food, grocery, and robbery while in medical school. He was a Salk Institute researcher, continued to write about food, grocery, robbery, and Jurassic Park, etc. He practiced a little bit of medicine, but continue to write about food, grocery, robbery, dinosaurs, and what not. Then he just dropped medicine, and continue to write about food, grocery, robbery, dinosaurs.
He might have hated medicine. But as great a writer as he is, he might have also been a realist, medical training did not hinder him or detract him.

Michael Burry did not finish his neurology residency. His passion was in investment. But he kept medicine up, until he is sure of his other passion is workable. While off duty at night, Burry worked on his hobby, financial investing. On one occasion, Burry had been working so hard studying both for medical school and his personal financial interests that he fell asleep standing up during a complicated surgery and crashed into the oxygen tent that had been built around the patient. As a result, he was thrown out of the operating room by the lead surgeon in med school. He kept up medicine until he is sure there is another outlook.

Everyone hates medicine, but wait until you have a real outlook before dropping it. Passion might change, but many times you have to be a realist first. Be a realist first, my friend.

 

[deleted889094]

Michael Crichton said "about two weeks into medical school I realized I hated it. This isn't unusual since everyone hates medical school – even happy, practicing physicians."
He continued to write about food, grocery, and robbery while in medical school. He was a Salk Institute researcher, continued to write about food, grocery, robbery, and Jurassic Park, etc. He practiced a little bit of medicine, but continue to write about food, grocery, robbery, dinosaurs, and what not. Then he just dropped medicine, and continue to write about food, grocery, robbery, dinosaurs.
He might have hated medicine. But as great a writer as he is, he might have also been a realist, medical training did not hinder him or detract him.

Michael Burry did not finish his neurology residency. His passion was in investment. But he kept medicine up, until he is sure of his other passion is workable. While off duty at night, Burry worked on his hobby, financial investing. On one occasion, Burry had been working so hard studying both for medical school and his personal financial interests that he fell asleep standing up during a complicated surgery and crashed into the oxygen tent that had been built around the patient. As a result, he was thrown out of the operating room by the lead surgeon in med school. He kept up medicine until he is sure there is another outlook.

Everyone hates medicine, but wait until you have a real outlook before dropping it. Passion might change, but many times you have to be a realist first. Be a realist first, my friend.

The only disagreement I have with this is that I think there are people who are just built for medical school and have a very good experience. I know plenty of people who struggled first year, but I know a few who had an easy time.

There are always the outliers

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Be careful what you wish for, you might get it. No need to feel bad or that you have to justify your decision to anyone. A couple of students drop out every year, even with good grades just because medicine is not for them. Had a guy from MIT in my 1st yr med school class. He read novels in class. Dropped out with straight A's because he was bored. Its sad because so many very earnest students never get in and would be great doctors. My only advice, if you don't like taking care of patients, don't go into a specialty where you have too. There are lots of options, as my colleagues have pointed out. Someone will get hurt because you are disinterested. You could end up being the doctor i choose for my Mother in Law.

 

[kb1900]

I think if you had a full time job that wasn’t like a work study or something then a lot of people would probably still consider you non-trad. I would anyway.

Huh I guess TIL!

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Huh I guess TIL!

Just my opinion really.

 

[mehc012]

No one should be judged for succumbing to external forces like that. What about when physicians deal with burnout? There are doctors out there that leave the industry 5+ years into practice, because they lose interest or become truly mentally burnt out. There are also a number of doctors that stay and continue to practice despite being burnt out, all because it pays the bills. Would you judge them and ask why they succumbed to their feelings? Or to those that stay despite being burnt out, would you ask them why they continue down a path they truly didn't like and judge them for it?

In regard to your point about setting an alternate goal, many students that encounter their "change of heart moment" while in med school often to have an alternate goal. But they could be at a point where leaving medical school wouldn't be a wise decision (e.g. a third year student with only one year remaining). I'm speaking for those people. As I mentioned in my original post, there needs to be resources in place that deal with not just residency and clinical work- not only for those indifferent students to look into, but for ANYONE that wants to pursue something outside of clinical work.

Yes. I would absolutely ask someone who is miserable with their job why they continue down that path. I don't consider that 'stigma', I consider that 'normal human interaction' and, if they're asking, "giving good advice."

Someone who talks to me about a different goal is going to get a very different reaction than someone who just complains about how they hate clinical medicine. It's the difference between a friend who has a different interest than you and one who is defined primarily by tearing down your primary interest. Most of the negative responses I've seen are directed at those who say "I hate clinical medicine, it sucks" rather than "I would rather use my degree to develop new technologies" or "consult/research/pursue xyz". At some point, it not only is draining to interact with someone who is miserable, but refuses to address the source of their own misery...but it's draining to have empathy for someone who is constantly bashing your passion and whom you cannot share your excitement for your work. We've all had friends/colleagues/relationships like that, where someone is so enveloped in their own misery but refuses to make a change, and it's hard to support long-term.

So, yeah. I would and do judge people who become mired in their own misery and refuse to push for a better situation. I feel badly for them, but that sort of situation is only sustainable for brief times while a change is made, and you cannot make that change for people. When someone settles in and lets that become their status quo, sometimes you do have to move forward without them.

Medical school is set up to produce clinical and research physicians. There are alternative careers out there, yes...some people enter the field aiming for one of those goals, and that's fine. Others realize they aren't going to be happy in a clinical lifestyle and seek those out, and that's also fine. The 'stigma' is for those who do neither...who enter planning to become a clinician, discover they aren't happy with it, and then neither choose a different path nor find an alternative use for their MD, but simply remain on the same course hoping it magically improves. It is not the school's responsibility to find you an alternate career if you realize partway through training that you don't actually want the goal you signed up for.

If hanging out with someone is miserable because they are negative, it's not my responsibility to do so anyway lest I avoid 'stigmatizing' them.

It's not the fact of having non-clinical goals that is in itself judgement-worthy. However, expecting other people to deal with your negativity instead of finding a path to a more positive place is something I will judge people for, and will have to walk away from eventually.

 

[hallowmann]

Medicine is hard enough to stomach if you love it. I honestly can't imagine doing it if I hated it. You sacrifice too much of your life for years of abuse, pressure, stress, and missed family experiences. Its not worth it if you truly hate it and would be happy doing something else. If you are at the end of MS2/starting MS3, the path of least resistance is to complete an intern year and bail. That said, if there is literally anything you would enjoy doing and could get you a high 5-figure/low 6-figure salary (for the sake of loans if you have them), I'd quit now and go to that. It honestly doesn't sound like that's the case.

I think you are romanticizing "mental health counseling". Being a therapist can be very rewarding, and while there are certainly better aspects of it than medicine, there's a lot of what's terrible about medicine in it as well. Don't make another rushed decision. Actually truly investigate what's involved in the process of clinical psychology, the modalities you must learn, and the many other hurdles you must overcome before actually "counseling".

As far as stigma, as has been said, stop worrying about others. You can go through life worrying solely about what others think and as a result never be happy, or you can pursue things because you want them and spend time with people who respect you and understand your path.

 

[Splenda88]

If you already finished MS1, don't bailout. Finish med school and do at least 1-yr of residency so you can be licensed in most US states. As you alluded to in your post, having that MD/DO license will open a lot of doors.