Stigma

Discussion in 'Pre-Medical - DO' started by Sharky, Jul 31, 2001.

  1. Sharky

    Sharky Shark

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    Does it exist?
     
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  3. Popoy

    Popoy SDN Super Moderator

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    How old was that neurosurgeon?.... He might be still thinking "old school".... It has change since then....
     
  4. AhmedDO

    AhmedDO Junior Member

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    I really don't think it's about (old thinking)POPOY. It's just so hard for some people to understand the difference between Osteopathic medical schools and allopathic medical schools, because there is no damn difference between them :D . Both graduate students are PHYSICIANS(which mean they do the same think at the same hospital) ;)
     
  5. Popoy

    Popoy SDN Super Moderator

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    AhmedDO is absolutely right about his comments.... but I do still feel that the old thinking plays somewhat a factor.... No entirely though.... So the neurosurgeon's old huh?! I wonder if he has colleagues that are osteopathic docs?
     
  6. AllAboutTheGame

    AllAboutTheGame Junior Member

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    You still need to acknowledge that the majority of DO students are there because they did not get into MD school. If you look at PR's guide to med schools you'll see some of the miserable stats that DO schools have. I'm sure there are qualified people there who want to do that. But many of the students there applied to MD school unsuccessfully. Don't fool yourselves otherwise.
     
  7. Krazed_Medic

    Krazed_Medic Registered Banned User

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    oh boy...i can see where this one is going..it seems that at least once every two weeks someone has to post something of this nature, only to get the whole board in an uproar. My opinion...MD's & DO's are BOTH doctors and neither one is superior or inferior to the other. :rolleyes:
     
  8. Popoy

    Popoy SDN Super Moderator

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    Yup, seems like this is going somewhere where this board has gone before....
     
  9. Krazed_Medic

    Krazed_Medic Registered Banned User

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    Just to stir the fire a little bit more, maybe the topic should be: MD's rejects from DO schools? hehe *stir stir* :D :eek:
     
  10. Popoy

    Popoy SDN Super Moderator

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    It's stirring ;) I wonder where it'll go.... :cool:
     
  11. Freeeedom!

    Freeeedom! Senior Member

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    Perhaps the Neurosurgeon feels such, because there are VERY FEW D.O. NEUROSURGEONS. But who gives a rats ass? DO's have absolutely every opportunity to be as great as doctors as ANY MD. MD's do not hold a monopoly on quality physicians...and to base decisions on entrance scores is weak. You ever woke up and took a bad test? It's as simple as that.
     
  12. Mr. happy clown guy

    Mr. happy clown guy Senior Member

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    Thebeyonder,
    You aren't a Dental student are you? I mean, I hope a DENTAL student isn't passing judgement on a D.O.!
     
  13. muonwhiz

    muonwhiz Senior Member

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    Sounds like the MD neuorsurgeon and some on this list are just engaging in stereotypical thinking. Unless there has been some sort of published survey study to the contrary, it is not possible to know- much less opine- that the majority of DO students are allopathic rejects. I suspect that there are quite a few like myself, who declined allopathic schools to attend osteopathic ones.
     
  14. PJMCD

    PJMCD Member

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    I am about to start me first year as an osteopathic medical student. I have a masters degree in Biology and chose to apply to only Osteopathic medical schools, I really don't think I am a MD reject, after all I rejected them!
     
  15. doughboy

    doughboy Senior Member

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    I'm an MD reject going to a DO school and you know what, I don't care. I'm going to be a doctor either way, but that's the truth...I'm one of many at my school. During our clinical years...we were wishing we were at those MD schools. I'd rather had stayed in my state school and paid 10 grand then pay the 30 grand I am now. DO philosophy....boy I must have went to the wrong school because I haven't seen it emphasized worth **** besides my mandatory OMM lectures and OMM rotation I'm "required" to do because if it wasn't, more than half of us wouldn't take it....sad to say that...but truth hurts some time.
     
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  17. Mr. happy clown guy

    Mr. happy clown guy Senior Member

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    I'm with ya doughboy...how many friggin techniques do you need to learn to treat a "rib dysfunction".

    Now SMILE or I will find the chapman point for your colon and make you pooter your pants!!
     
  18. amayer24

    amayer24 Member

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    doughboy,
    I could be misunderstanding you, but are you that unhappy about your education in an osteopathic school? Which school is this and what year are you? I thought that this MD vs. DO thing kind of disappears once you start med school?!?!
    Tell me more about your experiences, please?
    Thank you :confused:
     
  19. makebelieve

    makebelieve Junior Member

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    hey mr. happy down guy....i hope an OSTEOPATHIC student isn't passing a judgement on a dental student. :D i was accepted to an osteopathic skool but decided not to attend. it's just not worth it to me with the time and money u put into and still have some people refer u as second class physicisn. ya ya i heard it all before ..."there's no damn difference between MD's and DO's....both are physicians" but u do have to admit...there is prejudice out there against DO's and isn't that the reason why DO's are always in this constant debate of whether or not they are equal to MD's. some MD's don't say it but i bet the first thing that register in their mind when they see a DO is MD reject. having to say that....it could be partially true....cuz all the people i know that applied to osteoplathic skools used osteopathic skools as backup to allopathic skools including myself. not to say there aren't any that truely love the DO philosophy..but i think it's just the minority. so if u don't mind the baggage that comes with a DO degree then more power to u. just my opinion so please be nice :D
     
  20. nycphildoc

    nycphildoc Member

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    I think all Physicians really, deep down, desire to become DO's. But to compensate for lack of tissue in the groin area, they become MD's, so they do not have to carry the burden of social and personal inferiority complexes. Us DO's, sure of the potence of our pengas, do not have such psychological hinderances. As a result, we are free to become DO's, and live in the happiness and grace of DO land.
     
  21. John DO

    John DO A.T. Still Endowed Chair

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    Is it important what some people think? I entered medicine for reasons other than impressing everyone. If your goal is to please all the people all the time, then you WILL fail miserably! I'm glad you chose not to go tot he osteo. school; people with your attitude about the profession bring the mean level of satisfaction down quite a bit!
     
  22. PJMCD

    PJMCD Member

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    AMEN JOHN-DO!!!!!!!!!!!
     
  23. prolixless

    prolixless Senior Member

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    It's almost laughable to think that in the busy, stressful and patient-centered world of medicine, most MD's actually take the time to think or even care if someone is an MD reject. Do Harvard and Yale med grads look upon MD grads from other schools as "harvard/yale rejects"? I wonder where on the reject-ladder RN's, PA's, and therapists would lie? Or how about the hospital janitors and cafeteria workers--they really must be perceived as ultra-rejects in the eyes of MD's!

    Get real man. As long as you're a likable and competent physician, hardly any MD is going to even care if you're a DO, carribean MD or lower-tier MD grad. The titles of MD and DO become empty and non-functional in the real world of medicine. It's what you actually do and the impact you have on people that becomes relevant to medicine.
     
  24. doughboy

    doughboy Senior Member

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    Amayer24--a large factor in why I'm somewhat unhappy at my school is because I want to go into a specialty field and DO residencies are lacking somewhat. For example, urology there are like ~8 spots and like ENT has around 13-14 I think in the country. It makes it little depressing because you feel you don't have as many opportunities to do what you want to. Plus, locations of these resdencies are either all in michigan or at small community-based hospitals. I believe my medical education is on par with everyone but I felt my school didn't care too much about kicking butt on the COMLEX but only that people pass. That attitude sucks. We didn't take shelf exams during my 3rd-4th years. We had our "school" exams which were poorly written. Rotation sites were always a "hit or miss" Either you were one of the few to rotate at some great private MD hospitals or you got stuck at our DO hospital or some small private hospital. I would have loved to have gone to a university based hospital with their own children's hospital, cancer care center...its just a different environment. Its like going to a community college compared to your state university. If you want to do an MD residency....you get that whole MD vs DO bull****...do you have to take both tests? mostly likely yes, then you have to look at MD programs that take DO's, and then figure out if the state requires you to do a DO internship to practice there, and do people even know what a DO is in that state...its just a big pain in the ass.
     
  25. doughboy

    doughboy Senior Member

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    Just another note....it sounds like I harp on DO this and that but I'm grateful I'm going to be a doctor. I guess I'm just greedy. I want to have as much opportunities to do whatever. I'm going to be a DO and so I hold them up to a higher standard. I just don't see any effort from my DO school in trying to produce quality physicians. The administration is a joke. With all the PT, PA, Pharm, OT students on campus, we're basically on par with them when it comes to getting any attention. All they care about is that they get their tuition money. I would love to take pride in my school and say its the best, and they treat us well, look out for us, we do well on the boards...blah blah blah. But that's not the case, and I go to one of the DO schools that people told me was one of the better ones. I won't name it just because I don't think its fair to give the school a bad rep only on my experience. However, like I said, a lot of my fellow students are in the same boat, I guess its just frustration.
     
  26. RacerDude2249

    RacerDude2249 Senior Member

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    Hey Mr. Happy Clown,

    What's up with that statement? I can only interpret that statement in one way--you are implying that a D.O. student is "above" the dental student? If that's what you were trying to get at dude, you're one sorry case. Contrary to your warped sense of reality, not everyone wants to go through hell and back for the rest of their life, deal with HMO companies trying to screw you over, have huge malpractice liabilities, and be checking for rectal cancer from 350lb people just so they can go around with an MD or DO tag hanging from their white coat. I'm headed off to dental school in about a month and YES, that was my FIRST CHOICE and YES I'll pass judgement on anyone I feel like--what does a credential have to do with anything??

    Racerdude
     
  27. John DO

    John DO A.T. Still Endowed Chair

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    It's also not fair to stand by and let others walk into the same situation you did when you might be able to prevent. Man, your opinion counts as much as anyone else's. If you're not happy, that counts and I would want to know before I spent my $$. Your opinion might not sway me, but I should be given the opportunity to hear your story.
     
  28. doughboy

    doughboy Senior Member

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    You're right JohnDO, my opinion does count. However, there are many students in my class who are satisfied with everything. They love the school, the rotations, the doctors,... This is the "DO students rejects from MD schools" thread and so some of my venting comes from me expecting more from my DO school. You hear the hype about how much "hands on" we are, how we are "better prepared for clinicals", how we "have our holistic philosophy" and "we're better than MD's because we know OMM" I think this is an exaggerated generalization. My school rotates with MD students at some of our sites and they are equally as competent as we are. I don't feel like I'm a clutz during my rotations but I don't see myself as a master either. I look at the people in my class and everyone is as good as how they entered med school. I don't see doctors using OMM outside family medicine and I don't see any difference in doctors who are MD or DO. There are excellent doctors in both and bad doctors in both. However, I feel my school is at a disadvantage because our core DO hospital is small and they send the majority of students there for rotations. We have awesome MD hospital sites but only like 4 people go there per month, so if you're lucky you're loving your rotation. Most MD students I know have great clinical sites at big hospitals with amazing facilities. Its like while you're there you want to work there and when you go to a smaller hospital whether DO or MD you just feel its inferior and that you might see comparable pathology but at such a low volume whats the point. We're here to get trained and so you want to see as many cases as you can so you'll be well prepared to handle them. When you start your own practice that's a different story and you might want to take it easy and handle only easy cases. If this is what I feel coming from my school, I can't imagine what its like at other DO schools. For example, KCOM, you have your own hospital and its in a small community so everyone there loves you and knows you and its great(I've visited there during interviews) but only in that area. Go outside to St Louis and see the big hospitals affliated with SLU and Wash U and it seems like nothing. Its the big fish in a little pond mentality. I'm just one of those people who don't want to go into family medicine and I like big hospitals with up to date technology, procedures, cases, and recognition. I feel like I can learn more at those places. It sucks when you're at a small hospital and you have to send out your cases to the bigger hospitals because you don't have the facilities to manage them.
     
  29. Georgey

    Georgey Senior Member

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    Racer D, I'm not sure why you are taking such statements personally. I have been around dentists all my life--my dad's an oral surgeon--and they have been very candid about the fact that they became dentists because they did not feel they had the grades to get into med school. That may not be the case with you but I know for a fact it is not all that uncommon. I think that is what the post above was alluding to. I don't mean to knock dentist's, hell my dad's one, but I have heard it said several times over by at least ten different dentists that nobody is happy to see you (who does like going to the dentist, anyway...no one) when they walk through your doors. Dentists also have the highest suicide rate of any profession in the country. If you want to be a dentist, and that is your dream, then fine, but I think you must admit that you are in the minority.
     
  30. Mr. happy clown guy

    Mr. happy clown guy Senior Member

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    Racerwhatever...yeah I am passing judgment on you, a dental student. Go floss someone alright.
     
  31. jdub

    jdub Senior Member

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    i was just wondering . . . who has better looking chicas, allo-, osteo-, or dental schools? :D
     
  32. RacerDude2249

    RacerDude2249 Senior Member

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    Jdub,

    Of course the DENTAL students have better chicas! I mean what woman in their right mind would want to be ALONE for the rest of her life--yes ALONE because that is what it is like to date an M.D. or D.O. Sure, they make decent money, but they work 70-80+ hours a week so they are NEVER available mentally, emotionally, or even PHYSICALLY. Also, what woman would want to date Frankenstien--yes Frankenstien because M.D.s and D.O.s look so tired and haggered all the time because they have to deal with manipulative HMO companies trying to screw them over, patients nagging the heck out of them as a result of feeling like they are treated like one cattle in a herd, and beause they work such incredibly long hours! Along with looking tired and haggered, they have no time to keep up their fat disfigured bodies--I mean what woman in their right mind would want to deal with that sloppy mess? My overall consensus is that chicas gravitate toward the DENTAL students because they are available, have a great job, have time to keep up that nice body, and they make great money. But, of course my answer could be a little biased since I'm a dental student... ;)

    Racerdude...(All in good fun of course)

    P.S. Georgey, don't you worry, I've got a response to your post coming in a little bit--just been really busy over here... :D
     
  33. Popoy

    Popoy SDN Super Moderator

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    I'm sure everyone one of these have their fair share of "better looking chicas".... ;)

    Ease up folks on those back and forth personal comments.... It's probably just the summer heat talking.... Stay cool, y'all.... :cool:
     
  34. PJMCD

    PJMCD Member

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    RacerDude2249 you are a babbling fool!!!!!!!!


    :eek:
     
  35. RacerDude2249

    RacerDude2249 Senior Member

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    Well,

    Let's not get emotional here... :D
     
  36. krissy1986vw

    krissy1986vw Junior Member

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    I would like to respond to AllAboutTheGame's notion that it is foolish to think many DO students applied to osteo school simply because they couldn't get into MD programs. I am a student who is choosing NOT to apply to MD programs. I have good MCAT scores, a great GPA, and 3.5 years of intense post-bacc. research and public health experience. Not only that, but as a patient with a chronic illness, I PREFER DOs because of their emphasis on preventative medicine. I inherently follow a DO philosophy every day to keep my whole body healthy. Meds only go so far....my vast experience as a patient has led me to value the care of DOs more than MDs. I can't tell you how many times I have seen an MD only to hear about new medications,new oral/IV therapies,new pills....when all I want is some extra advice on what I as a person can do to stay healthy. It gets intensely frustrating if one relies on medication for relief. In short, I value my DO's opinion above all others....
     
  37. mj

    mj Senior Member

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    No, that wouldn't be RATIONAL would it racer

    :rolleyes:

    mj
     
  38. CVPA

    CVPA Senior Member

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    Here is my 2 cents........

    I think that the majority (probably >50%) of DO medical students probably tried to get into an allopathic program first. The reality is that there are only so many allopathic seats out there to go around. There are MORE adequately qualified applicants than there are positions, so as a result, people who want to be physicians and apply allopathic then have to turn to a DO school as an option. Does that mean that they are not going to be as good a physician? Of course not. I personally am convinced there is no compromise in the quality of education. I would opt for the MD over the DO only because life's reality is such that there IS bias out there against DOs and its not just Old World thinking, my friends. You can't deny it and you can't refute it. It does exist and it sucks when you have worked your TAIL off to get to the point where you are a licensed physician only to have a patient in the ER say, "I would like to see a real doctor" or hear that a colleague has said behind your back "He's not a doctor, he's a DO". I have been a PA for five years and I can tell you that MANY young MDs that I have encountered, from NY--->Florida, think that DOs are MD rejects. Whether its true or not is not the debate here. We all know that it is an unfair representation of the situation not to mention just a ****ty thing to say.

    I have applied to both an MD and a DO school. I will be happy to be accepted to either program and will be proud to call myself a DO or an MD.
     
  39. RacerDude2249

    RacerDude2249 Senior Member

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    Georgey,

    Regarding your statement about people becoming dentists because they couldn't get into medical school, I would have to say that may be true to a MINOR extent. However, contrary to your belief, I feel that MOST students have chosen to pursue dentistry as their 1st choice for the same reasons I have. Dentistry offers autonomy, flexibility, reasonable hours, great pay, low malpractice liability, an environment almost free of HMOs, an opportunity to pursue research or academic interests, an opportunity to balance work with family life, and MORE all within the scope of a medically-related occupation. If you want to start pointing fingers about those not having an adequate gpa to get into medical school, you might want to look in your own back yard. As supported by CVPA, probably approximately 50% (if not more) students pursue D.O. school because they didn't have the gpa to get into an M.D. school. So, it really is NOT the dental students who are the M.D. rejects so much as it is the D.O. students! Almost all dental students or pre-dent students I have spoken with have a true passion to pursue dentistry believe it or not. And most of these students have never really even thought about medical school and the hellish life that goes with it. As for D.O. students, I can bet you that 1 out of 2 if not more of those students are M.D. rejects. I'm not trying to be mean here, but you are the one that brought up this issue, so I'm just shedding light on the subject... :D

    As for your claim that dentists have the highest suicide rate of any profession in the nation, that is a bogus, unsubstantiated, and unfounded claim made in the 1970s by a research study that was later proven to be without merit. Unfortunately, the tabloids got a hold of the story, blew it out of proportion, and the stigma that dentists have a high suicide rate stuck. Contrary to your belief, the suicide rate is not high for dentists and furthermore, if you were to compare the suicide rate of dentists with M.D.s or D.O.s, I am quite certain that they would be very similar.

    As for your last claim that I am in the minority for pursuing dentistry, yes, you are probably right. Pre-health students I don't think really explore all the options available to them when choosing a health-related career. Granted some pursue medicine for the right reasons, others are influenced by their parents/friends to do "what they are supposed to do" or they are influenced by the media by shows such as "E.R." and "Chicago Hope" which portray a rather glamorous viewpoint of medicine. Also, some pre-meds probably feel that they will finally get respect, be a noble person, get approval of others, and earn tons of money when they finally wear that white coat with the M.D. or D.O. tag hanging from it. While choosing medicine offers no guarantees except for an above-average financial return, pursuing medicine, I feel, is an option that a LOT of pre-meds pursue for alternative motives. So in my opinion, a lot of students choose medicine blindly based not on what best suits their internal personal interests, but rather, what best suits their external agendas (money, respect, nobility, women). Now, if someone were to write down on a piece of paper all the disadvantages pertaining to the medical career, let's face it, how many students would actually want to be a medical doctor? On that list of disadvantages would include the following: Working 70-80+ hours/week, being on call, enduring seven long years of both medical school and residency training NOT to mention specialty training, graduating with a huge debt, having a high malpractice liability, being in your early to mid 30s before you start making any decent money, being around sick and dying people all day or in other words being around people at the WORST time of their lives, dealing with huge HMO companies trying to screw you over and having them regulate the medical procedures you perform on a daily basis, and finally, not really having enough time to enjoy your family, your hobbies, and just LIFE IN GENERAL, and the list goes on and on. I mean what student would really want to pursue a career with those drawbacks? Not a whole lot I would guess. So, to get back to your initial allegation that I am in the minority for pursuing dentistry--yes, that is probably true, but then again, I am also most likely in the minority of students who have fully explored all the health-related career options available before making an informed and educated decision. While I am not insinuating that all or even most students would choose dentistry over medicine, I am certainly implying that there would not be a mass herd of pre-HEALTH students scrambling to break through the medical school admission gates if more SUBJECTIVE rather than OBJECTIVE thought went into deciding a future career path.

    Racerdude
     
  40. kreno

    kreno Candy Man

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    Both osteopathic and allopathic institutions have their advantages/disadvantages. I, personally, want the option of practicing internationally - and, DO's aren't recognized is all but a handful of countries. That's my main reason for choosing allopathy.

    leon
     
  41. Georgey

    Georgey Senior Member

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    Racer D..I didn't think I would be saying this but for the most part I agree with you. I don't think though you can make a generalized statement about the hours doctors have. For example, my experience has shown me that dermatologists, plastic surgeons, and other specialists, never work more than a forty hour week. Furthermore, by definition, a doctor is usually his/her own boss and can set whichever hours he/she wants (somes exceptions being Emergency Med, Trauma Surg, etc.). With that said, I am really not pre-osteopathic. 99% of my applications are going to MD programs. I drop in on this forum now and again because one of my med school applications is going to a DO program (North Texas). For the most part, I would say that there are relatively few people with the numbers to get into a MD program that actually choose to go to a DO school, although I could be wrong about this. I do believe though that DOs are competent doctors that society is surely in need of. In the end though I would say that anybody holding an acceptance letter to a DO program in one hand and an acceptance letter to a MD program in the other is probably going to choose the MD school. But again, I could be wrong about this. In so far as how dentistry fits into all this, I would say that yes people who cannot get into an MD program would surely look to a DO program first. If not DO then perhaps podiatry or chiropractic medicine. Dentistry is just another pathway for people in this sceneario that happens to be somewhat more distant. Nevertheless, I would agree with you: people who do not get into an MD school would probably look to one of the aforementioned routes instead of dentistry. The result of this being that of all pre-health students the ones that are probably the least interested in ever becoming an MD would be future DDSs. The dentists I was referring to in my previous post were in there fifties, which should indicate to you that such options as becoming a podiatrist, chiropracter, or DO, were less available to them since these professions were less prominent in society thirty to forty years ago. Anyways, enough babbling on my part....Good luck to you, Racer D, in your future dental endveavors.
     
  42. Georgey

    Georgey Senior Member

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    Racer D....
    PS. For all I know the comment about dentists having the highest suicide rate in the country may be bogus. I have heard it so many times that I simply accepted it as fact. Mostly I just said it to feed the fire....sorry.
     
  43. John DO

    John DO A.T. Still Endowed Chair

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    It seems you both accept a lot of information as fact without checking it out. How scientific do you think you are by guessing at statistics, then quoting each other? Over 50% of DOs are NOT MD rejects--one of you said it and the other qouted it; that does not make it true!

    Racerdude, I get the idea that you chose dentistry purely for the money and benefits, just as you imply most do for medicine. Honestly, how can you love teeth and just want all teeth to be clean, regardlesss of the money? Dentistry is usually chosen as a stable field with good hours and great pay. At least mecial applicants can claim to be altruistic, even if it is is a thinly veiled attempt to be respected.

    Also, to say that a DO applicant would pick chiropractic OR DO after being rejected from an MD school is quite ignorant. If one knows anything about chiropractic or osteopathy at all, he/she would know that chiropractic was "stolen" from osteopathy, so a DO would never consider it.

    Here's an actual statistic about DO/MD (I didn't just make this up like you two have been). According to Gordon Laird, D.O., president of the Oklahoma Osteopathic Association, 14 of 22 students accepted to both allo- and osteopathic programs in the state of OK CHOSE the osteopathic route. That doesn't include students who went out of state, like me, a D.O. student accepted to BOTH programs.

    You two will really have to become more scientific and mature A LOT before you can be accepted to ANY program! The only valid point made in this thread was that DOs are not recognized internationally; if international medicine is your goal, you are not qualified to be a DO appplicant, so choose MD. Otherwise, the admissions requirements are the same and every bit as competitive. For example, KCOM, my school, has about 3500 applicants yearly and accepts 150. Are those 3500 people poor applicants; are they on average less competent than an MD school attracts? You tell me, our student body is made up of students who earned their undergrad at Harvard, Cornell, and many well-respected institutions. Tell me, where are you struggling for undergrad? Think you are too good to be a DO? Apply and get rejected, then re-evaluate your cocky attitude!
     
  44. together

    together Senior Member

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    THANK YOU ALL FOR PROMULGATING A FALSE TRICHOTOMY.
     
  45. Gauravvv

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    I would just like to add my opinion to this little discussion, excuse any mistakes please, my brain is still on vacation.

    I will be starting the 7 year program at NYIT in the fall and would just like to say that i turned down the 8 year joint program at Queens College and SUNY Downstate Med School. At first i thought this was a huge mistake, a feeling which is shown in my earlier posts. I was skeptical about DOs, their profession and Osteopathy in general. Serious research and reading showed me that i made the correct choice in going Osteopathic. I still do not consider DOs to be equals with MD, i consider them to be MDs +. The OMM philosphy really adds another dimension to being a physician, even though most DOs do not use it. In closing I would just like to say that if the two letters after your name really mean that much to you, maybe you're going into the wrong profession. :cool:
     
  46. prolixless

    prolixless Senior Member

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    I should also throw in my two cent observations since I've had some hospital care experiencein nursing. CVPA offered some anecdotal observations so I feel I should offer my anecdotal observations too. My observations have been that patients never exhibit verbal bias toward the DOs, such as "I want to see a real doctor." This is partly due to them rarely ever knowing they are being treated by a DO. Yet even the few times I've seen them notice our doc is a DO, they usually just ask what a DO is out of curiosity, in the midst or after being treated by the doc, which suggests to me they never really doubted the guy's competence to begin with. Also, the thing about young MDs viewing DOs as MD rejects I've noticed mostly in a few med students. And I once talked to a second year resident who had the same views about DOs. But all in all, the MD residents I've talked to could care less whether someone is a DO or not. The health care field is way too consuming to care about whether someone is a DO, lower-tier MD, or carribean school MD. Just a little bit of my limited observations.
     
  47. hippuppy

    hippuppy Member

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    I have been reading a book by James S. Gordon, M.D. entitled "Manifesto for a New Medicine". He mentions his struggle with chronic back pain and his search to find a treatment. He documents his experiences with Eastern medicine as well as those with manipulation therapy. He is better thanks to the treatment by a DO and other healers. Dr. Gordon learned manipulative treatments and now uses them on his patients. This is what he had to say.

    "I'm certainly not the best or the most experienced manipulator I've known--my tranining has come, sporadically, from assorted osteopaths and chiropractors whom I've consulted and studied with over the years. Yet I've had results that are enormously gratifying to my patients and me. My success with low back pain is the most consistent, but I've also helped many people recover from long-standing, serious upper back pain, from whiplash injuries, frozen shoulders, and carpal tunnel syndrome.
    I've seen remarkable changes in people who were suffering from horrible, debilitating migraine headaches for years--headaches that sent them whimpering to bed three, four, even seven times a week. These people have been diagnosed in leading medical centers and treated, unsuccessfully, with the latest drugs. After two or three manipulative treatments, some, though certainly not all, ar virtually symptom-free. They stay that way, needing only occasional visits to readjust necks that tend under physical or emotional stress to turn and twist out of place."

    I find it disheartening that the medical community is so separated. In my opinion, who cares what allopaths think about osteopaths. We must remember that the most important person in the medical community is the patient, not the doctor.
     
  48. John DO

    John DO A.T. Still Endowed Chair

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    I think it is obvious that, if DOs are indeed MD rejects, then the MD schools are making serious mistakes in their selections!
     
  49. hippuppy

    hippuppy Member

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  50. Georgey

    Georgey Senior Member

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    John DO...You need to improve your reading comprehension skills. If you care to look over my post to Racer D, you will see that I was addressing his previous post, mostly about MDs vs. DDSs. Also, if you spend the time to go even further back in the thread you'll see that our exchanges were mostly in good fun. Perhaps sarcasm is something that alludes you. Also, if you care to read every word, and not every other word as you appear to do, you would see that I was humble in my assertions that all people would necessarily choose a MD program over a DO program. I also stated that I believe that DOs are competent physicians that society is need of. After reading that you are DO student however I becoming more ambivalent about this.

    To correct you, this is my second time applying to med school. Last year I applied to only DO schools, mostly because I didn't feel I had the MCAT to get into an MD school, and got accepted to two of them. Three of the four DOs I worked for related to me that I would have a steep hill to climb to gain the respect of the average MD. Again, I don't want claim this as my opinion, but when three persons who have occupied this profession for a combined total of ninety years tell me something, I am going to listen. They told me I seemed to have the grades to get into an MD program but that my MCAT was a little sub-par. My premed advisor seconded their opinion. So I took the test again and raised my score five points. Now I'm giving it my all to get into MD programs, as well as one osteopathic one.

    You speak of maturity as being something Racer D and I are lacking. I find this humorous considering you are a DO student parading around pre-osteopathic forums. Of course, this may be the problem of your reading comprehension skills. For your info, the words at the top of the page say "pre-osteopathic," not osteopathic. Or then again, this may be a case of your presumed inferiority getting the better of you. You can push all you want but lambasting premed students is not going to remove the rocket size chip that is residing on your shoulder.

    To all those that dream of being a DO, and never had any desire to become an MD, my sincerest apologies if any of my comments offended you. This was not my intention. Presumably, this free exchange of ideas is just too much for some people to handle.
     
  51. doughboy

    doughboy Senior Member

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    You know what, I wonder how many people on this thread that are boosting so much about Osteopathic medicine are in their clinical rotations? Yeah, I know you've interacted with DO doctors but its different when you're the rotating med student. I just can't wait until you get to that stage of your career. I will be highly impressed if you stick with your loyalties, rotate at only DO institutions, and apply only to the AOA match. For those wanting to go into family practice, then that will be easy, for those who aren't, it will be difficult not to want to rotate at MD hospitals. Sure there are many DO's in MD hospitals, but the majority of them did their training in an MD residency. All the DO's I've met(residents and other students) agree that our education is on par but the quality and the variety of our residency programs can't compare to the MD ones. For those who want to do a specialty, its a tough battle. There are some great DO hospitals but not nearly as numerous as the MD ones. Just wait, its hard to explain until you get to your 3rd and 4th years and are dealing with setting up rotations and finding residency programs that "take DO's." Most MD schools have their own "huge" university hospital with many positions available in practically every specialty and they favor their own med students and so more are able to get what they want. For example look at the match results for U of MICH, how many times did you see their own hospital as a match site? It must be nice. I know a lot of you will be considering whether to take the USMLE along with your COMLEX and whether or not to apply to the NMRP match as well as the AOA match. Just wait and see. Then come back and read this post. I was once like you, thinking the DO world had everything I could want and I didn't need MD programs and hospitals, but boy things change when you get into the real world and away from all that "we are better" attitude and "the big fish in a little pond" position.
     
  52. Shammy

    Shammy Junior Member

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    I think when D.O. himself is speculating about the general perceptions he has encountered, it speaks a thousand times louder than any one else. and I agree with Georgey....D.O's will never overcome the stereotype. Its sad, but true.
     

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