MSCDOC

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That's right.. This is the article in today's paper in Sydney.. Hundreds of international medical students have been left hanging, without jobs for next year. It's the same situation in other states of Australia.
Having a quarter million dollars in debt myself and no job for next year, I would not recommend any international student to consider this avenue for their medical degree.
 

pitman

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That's right.. This is the article in today's paper in Sydney.. Hundreds of international medical students have been left hanging, without jobs for next year. It's the same situation in other states of Australia.
Which other states? Queensland is the other state with the early tsunami, but they've only just done the first match, when no int'ls ever get jobs in any year. Please qualify your statements rather than sensationalizing based on generalization.
 
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pitman

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http://www.smh.com.au/national/hospitals-buckle-in-tsunami-of-interns-20090724-dw5z.html

International students in NSW got shafted this year.....its just going to get worse!
Do you mean that you're predicting that they WILL get shafted for this (transitional) year, or are you falsely inferring from that article that they have already gotten shafted?

Something's fishy with the way certain people are reporting things here..is it just a lack of attention to detail, or something more?
 

jhtran

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So basically, from what I understand, the dilemma stems from the lack of clinical spots? Is it possible to go else where for clinical then? jhtran.
 
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this seems to be a very serious problem, and not over sensationalized. What's refreshing to read is that the AMA and deans are confronting the issue honestly. In this global recession, I'm curious to see how funding will be found to provide more spots. I'm hopeful that an industrious and progressive nation like Australia will not be short sighted and see the tremendous opportunity that this investment in the future of medicine would be.

Places like the US and Australia, NEED more doctors. There are many eager and qualified students that are willing to endure large debt, demanding work, and rigorous schooling to enter this vital profession. The US is too frequently caught in self serving politics where the greater good goes by the wayside and special powerful interests are prioritized at the expense of the nation. I have always respected and admired the people and nation of Australia for their foresight in caring for their people. As a hopeful student who would like to study in Australia, I'm going to eager watch the reaction and response of the Australian government and medical community.
 

pitman

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this seems to be a very serious problem, and not over sensationalized.
Of course it's a serious problem, but of course it's sensational to make claims that are bigger than the actual facts which have been known for YEARS.

It's sensational to claim (in an earlier post by MSCDOC) that "no int'ls" got intern jobs this year -- not to mention in all respects wrong, and either sloppy or disengenuous by its omission of the facts. And it's sensational (and again incorrect, and now I'd say dishonest) to continue in this line after others had to qualify his statements, by claiming above that the int'ls are without jobs (um, of course they are, the ballot hasn't even been finalized!), and to further assert that this is the same situation as in other states, who are also in the middle of THEIR ballots.

It's sensational to make claims of the anticipated future as though they are the present.

The reality is, the tsunami has been talked about to death for years, and everyone knows that they can't be guaranteed a job in Australia when they're done, and this eventually means that int'ls will not be able to get a job here, but this has not happened yet. The only "news" isn't that students haven't been guaranteed spots (never have, never should have), but that this year, it may be that some subset of the int'ls won't get them in NSW, and maybe some in Qld. Which has been anticipated all along. What sense of entitlement makes that any more of an issue?

Claiming it's happened before it's happened, when everyone knows it'll happen at some point, is a sensational attempt to pre-empt the inevitable -- what, so one can ultimately say, "told you so"? -- in that case, so can all the doomsdayers of 2003!

And the ballot hasn't been such a surprise this year to the USyd int'l students who if they want to stay should be applying OUT OF STATE, where there are still a surplus of spots -- just as it's disingenuous for someone in the US to have such a sense of entitlement to whinge that they aren't guaranteed a job after med school, let along IN ANY PARTICULAR STATE! Would not a thread on that seem just a bit...sensational?

Anyone can read any thread on this subject going back to 2003 and see that essentially, *nothing has changed*. I mean, look at the title of this thread -- it's blatantly sensational.

As to the request that "pre-medical students please go do some research before you start arguing" (same 'conversation', different thread)... um, before they start aguing with whom, about what? There's all sorts of loaded rhetoric in there which makes no sense.

So again, I say, please stop sensationalizing, or I at least will continue to harp on about how unneccessary and unproductive the scaremongering of late is.
 
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Daemos

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at least the positives of this the Preseident of the AMC and the Dean of Medicine at Usyd are supporting International students staying and doing internships. I mean the government has to do the action, but it's very nice to see that some people of importance are taking notice and supporting international students.
 
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hey pitman,
I responded to this thread without having read MSDOC's post in the other thread. I found it pretty arrogant and rude to tell "premeds" to do their research before arguing. This IS the research, asking questions and making points is a way to discover more about the issue being discussed. I've combed through alot of these threads and still manage to find new things; there's no way to cover every thread. Especially when there are some pretty pointless posts that are a waste of time.

To be far though, in this thread. It wasn't stated that NO internationals got jobs. It was perhaps an over reaction to a valid article. I would agree its unnecessary to sensationalize any concern, but I still find this article a necessary point of discussion. Over-sensationalized of the article is unnecessary, but the article and its issue are very much worth discussing.

I'm glad to hear that an internship spot, if desired is attainable just maybe not in the preferred state.

I can understand how annoying it would be to have to refute and explain this same concern over and over. Unfortunately, there is a lot of misinformation and irrational fear on the boards. Do I expect a guaranteed spot, no. Not even internships in the states are guaranteed. Do I expect a spot though, yes; I just don't expect to have my choice of states or spots though.

I was not aware that this issue has been of concern since 2003, all I've come across at the moment is some recent threads and this article. If this has been a concern since 2003 and the article is still relevant to an existing issue, I'm not sure if this will be resolved in the near future (ie class of 2014)
 

Ezekiel20

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Many interstate Australian students apply for internships in NSW, just to see what they get. They will probably accept offers of internship in (say) RPAH/RNSH/POW, and maybe reject offers from campbelltown/liverpool/gosford.

A resident I work with now in ED studied in Adelaide, but applied for internships in a few states and picked the one he liked the most.

So there is still hope for int'l students who studied in NSW. But it seems like in the future they should apply for internship in as many states as possible, if they have decided to do internship/residency in Australia.

What's the situation in other states btw? Surely states like WA/NT/TAS aren't as horribly oversubscribed as NSW (879 applications for 670 spots, according to the linked article).
 

JanikeyDoc

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http://www.smh.com.au/national/hospitals-buckle-in-tsunami-of-interns-20090724-dw5z.html


International students in NSW got shafted this year.....its just going to get worse!
Its better to apply for an Australian PR and then apply to medical school as a local, there are numerous benefits that locals have over internationals, namely they pay less fees and have more support from the Australian government. This problem is going to affect internationals, locals CSPs should not have serious issues, it may get more difficult for them to get their ideal residency but I believe they have some leverage in this matter.
 

shan564

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Just so you guys have some background on that article - it was written as a result of pressure from the USyd students, since we were looking to get the problem out into the popular media. IMET expects that all NSW international students will end up getting internships in the second round this year, but they didn't say anything about the next couple of years. The purpose of the article (and another similar one, plus more to come in the near future) is to get laypeople interested in the issue. Hopefully, that'll convince the politicians to help us out more.

Also, our dean (Bruce Robinson) has been at the forefront of the struggle. He has proposed several possible solutions to the problem, and it seems likely that some of his suggestions will be implemented. He's meeting with the NSW Ministry of Health on Tuesday; I'll keep you guys updated if there's any new information.
 

shan564

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Just so you guys have some background on that article - it was written as a result of pressure from the USyd students, since we were looking to get the problem out into the popular media. IMET expects that all NSW international students will end up getting internships in the second round this year, but they didn't say anything about the next couple of years. The purpose of the article (and another similar one, plus more to come in the near future) is to get laypeople interested in the issue. Hopefully, that'll convince the politicians to help us out more.

Also, our dean (Bruce Robinson) has been at the forefront of the struggle. He has proposed several possible solutions to the problem, and it seems likely that some of his suggestions will be implemented. He's meeting with the NSW Ministry of Health on Tuesday; I'll keep you guys updated if there's any new information.
 

JanikeyDoc

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I doubt any real action will be done on this issue in the long term. The Sydney U faculty is trying to take action or at least giving the impression of it because they will lose international students otherwise. Many internationals do go home when finishing their degree but many want to stay. If there were very dim prospects of staying then they would lose a very lucrative market. When it comes to international students its a very different situation from locals.

As I have said before going to a medical school in a foreign country is a risky proposition.
 

JanikeyDoc

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I'd usually be skeptical of the "impression", but the dean has been very specific about what he's been doing. Also, the student organizations are taking strong action.

Also, check this out:
http://www.aph.gov.au/Senate/committee/eet_ctte/international_students/info.htm

They can do whatever "strong action" they want but the fact is between now and 2006, the number of students studying Medicine has effectively doubled. That means in 2012, Australia will have double the graduates they will have this year. I seriously doubt they will be able to double training places to accommodate all those new students. At best people will no longer be able to choose the fields they want to enter, at worst many internationals will be asked to leave when they complete their studies, only a few years ago, all internationals were expected to leave Australia upon finishing medicine.

Getting into a postgraduate training program in Australia right now is hard, and it will only get harder. Even so, if you start in a program there is no guarantee that you will finish it. Some programs are known to be extremely rigorous, Surgery is one of them.
 

JPR22

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how many international students will be affeccted by this? Most of the US students could just go back to the US and at least get a primary care residency. Those from asian countries usually are so well off, they'll be ok no matter what. I only see this being a problem for Canadians. Im not sure of the makeup of the international student population though.
 

shan564

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At least 60-70% of the international students are Canadian. Most of them plan on going to the US if they can't get into Canada.

This year, there were ~700-800 internships (plus or minus a few) handed out in NSW. In 2012, there will be about 1000-1100 graduates. They may not be able to accommodate every person, but a lot of the internationals will also go back home, so we might be able to get something.

There's a lot going on with regard to the issue on campus. Student advocacy, etc, etc... so even if they don't address the problem completely, I'm expecting something to happen. Still, I'm preparing for the USMLE to be on the safe side.
 

JanikeyDoc

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Well the US is not going to be an option for IMGs for much longer. Many hospitals are cutting residency training programs, especially primary care programs combined with the fact that US schools both MD and DO are increasing student seats by a large margin. Asian students from Singapore and Malaysia have no problems obtaining registration in their countries, Singapore gives a lot of preferential treatment to graduates from certain medical schools. I think they only recognize MDs from a handful of top US schools.

I was seriously looking into Australia as my top choice but now its only going to be an alternative if I don't make it into a US program.