I'm well aware a deposit isn't insurance. But it could act as insurance for people in my position. And I agree w/ you about pulling back a deposit.
Stop payment on a deposit check
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I'm well aware a deposit isn't insurance. But it could act as insurance for people in my position. And I agree w/ you about pulling back a deposit.
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But no one cares...the people doing this aren't reapplying next year, and they aren't the ones on the waitlists. Stopping checks and canceling debit cards won't affect them in the least.
Maybe the schools that get their deposits pulled/ canceled need to start reporting the actions to someone like PHARMCAS, who can pass the news along to the school that the person -does- attend. I think a lot of committees would like to know the character of some of the people they admitted to their schools. Their "perfect applicant" might be lacking in the morals department, and not be so perfect at all.
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I doubt the enforcement of that under the current rules, and if you were a school and a student prefers you over a different school and effectively screws the other school, why would you punish your own bottom line by punishing the student?
Also, given established protocols for punishing students, the most a school could do is note it privately in a student's file. Anything else would need to go through official channels (access to an ombudsman, judicial review, etc...)
Other problems: PharmCAS won't want to "pass along a message" for no additional cost, someone will have to pay. Are "officially attended" schools reported back to PharmCAS anyway? Not all schools are on pharmCAS.
Summary/cliff notes: logistically possible, but difficult...even if they DID get the information that a student pulled a deposit, actual actions by the "winning" school are limited, and there's no incentive whatsoever to punish.
Besides, these are exceedingly rare situations, schools just need to require certified checks for deposit or charge credit cards in a timely fashion. Problem solved.
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My school is likely to require certified checks for deposits next year.
The actions of a few lead to inconvenience for the masses. So is life...
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I've been told that my previous posts sound like lectures, so I want to be sure that you all understand what the PharmCAS schools can do to enforce this. I'm not lecturing, I just want you to be aware of what consequences you may incur because of your actions, so that you do not make poor decisions.
PharmCAS schools can report you as violating the applicant code of conduct for the actions discussed in this thread. If they do, then your application is placed on hold and the other school who may have accepted you will not be able to take further action on the status of your application. The schools report your status all the way through MATRICULATION (when you show up on the first day of class). So, essentially if you are reported as violating the applicant code of conduct, it doesn't matter where you are in the application process you will not be allowed to proceed. If you are reported after already being enrolled in a program (in your P1 year), the same steps happen and you are not allowed to submit another application in subsequent cycles.
It is also important to note, that non-PharmCAS schools are also notified that you have violated the code of conduct and the steps that are taken by PharmCAS. Most of the non-PharmCAS schools follow the same policy.
I can't say that every school will follow the policies, but they have the option of doing so and is it really worth the risk of not being allowed to enter the pharmacy profession?
Summary: Don't do it. It's not worth the risk.
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You can always just say you just lost your credit card like SHC did. Can pharmCAS prove that you didn't lose it? No... I'm sure these things are frowned upon, but will it prevent your career as a pharmacist, I think not.
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A leapord does not change its spots. If you can justify unethical behavior before you are placed in a position where you can directly effect the heath of a patient, then what could happen in the future?
If you do something illegal or unethical and you are not caught, does this make the act any less illegal or unethical? Non-detection of an illegal or unethical act emboldens you to continue this path. Then you can easily justify this incorrect postion by rationalizing that everyone else is doing it, so I can do it.
Integrity involves doing the right thing when no-one is watching, as well as when people are watching.
Please do not treat this as a trivial matter.
In case anyone is thinking I am talking out both sides of my mouth... I will be attending School #2, even if I receive an invite to School choice #1, (there will be no reconsideration).
Logic ruled as well as the ethical dilemma of holding a spot at that school while awaiting a decision from my first choice school.
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It's not about PharmCAS proving anything. It's about the school receiving the actual payment for the deposit and what they decide to do if they don't and they have options to make sure that there are consequences if they don't.
This is an example of a message that has been sent by an admissions officer at a pharmacy school related to this topic.
Dear Applicant X,
I'm glad you have found a school of pharmacy that fits your needs and wish you the best as far as that is concerned. However, there seems to be a slight misunderstanding about your $500 deposit. You signed the XXX PharmD Program Acceptance Form which clearly states that the $500 deposit will be forfeited if you choose to renege on the admission offer; the offer letter you received also very clearly states that the $500 deposit is non-refundable. While I understand that $500 is a significant amount of money, we expect applicants to adhere to the PharmCAS Applicant Code of Conduct, which states that as an applicant you will act with honesty and integrity throughout the admission process. Canceling your deposit check because you chose to attend another school of pharmacy is not appropriate and if done intentionally is not professional behavior or acting with integrity and is unfair to other applicants.
I truly hope the decision to cancel your deposit check was a misunderstanding on your part. To resolve this matter, I recommend that you reverse the cancellation of your check (reissue a check) in the near future. If not, the XXX College of Pharmacy will need to turn the matter over to PharmCAS/AACP as a violation of the applicant code of conduct which could have an adverse impact on your admission to any school of pharmacy.
Thanks for your attention to this matter.
This school was nice enough to allow the applicant to resolve the situation. They did not have to be that nice and were within their legal bounds to report the student as violating the applicant code of conduct.
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This is a very trivial matter. If I stole a cookie from the cookie jar, is that equated with stealing drugs from a pharmacy? I think not. And if you think putting down a deposit on your 2nd choice school when your still waiting on your first choice is some kind of huge ethical dilemma, your clearly delusional.
Amen
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I need someone on these forums to say they got a message like this and post it. I don't believe this is from a random admissions department. I would need to hear from real applicants.
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As the Director of PharmCAS I will verify that it is from a real admissions department. You can choose to think whatever you would like, but the reason I use my real name on this site is so that you know that the information I provide is credible.
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Reminds me of Principal Lamar Bone from the Nickelodeon show, Doug. "Rules are not meant to be broken, if we didn't have any rules, everything would be all higilly pigilly." Oh to be back when everyone thought we had a "permanent record ."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYm139vTpJw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYm139vTpJw
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I was not attempting to say that choosing school B over school A was some huge ethical dilemma. Ethics did play a part of it, I certainly didn't sweat it. I came to the conclusion while on a 2.5 hour drive home after a long day in another city. You just have some time to think when it is just you and a recording of an Immunology lecture as company for your drive home.
Speaking from 15 yrs in manufacturing between starting as supervisor and working my way up to department management. It takes very little to destroy credibility, it takes a long time to rebuild it.
Or if you prefer another way of looking at it... Review the definition of Ethics.
eth·ics [eth-iks] –plural noun
1. ( used with a singular or plural verb
) a system of moral principles: the ethics of a culture.
2. the rules of conduct recognized in respect to a particular class of human actions or a particular group, culture, etc.: medical ethics; Christian ethics.
3. moral principles, as of an individual: His ethics forbade betrayal of a confidence.
4. ( usually used with a singular verb
) that branch of philosophy dealing with values relating to human conduct, with respect to the rightness and wrongness of certain actions and to the goodness and badness of the motives and ends of such actions.
From Caddy Shack
Smails: Good, good. You know, despite what happened, I'm still convinced that you have many fine qualities. I think you can still become a gentleman someday if you understand and abide by the rules of decent society. There's a lot of...well, badness in the world today. I see it in court every day. I've sentenced boys younger than you to the gas chamber. I didn't want to do it- I felt I owed it to them. The most important decision you can make right now is what you stand for- goodness...or badness.
Danny: I've made some mistakes in the past. I'm willing to make up for that. I want to be good!
Speaking from 15 yrs in manufacturing between starting as supervisor and working my way up to department management. It takes very little to destroy credibility, it takes a long time to rebuild it.
Or if you prefer another way of looking at it... Review the definition of Ethics.
eth·ics [eth-iks] –plural noun
1. ( used with a singular or plural verb
2. the rules of conduct recognized in respect to a particular class of human actions or a particular group, culture, etc.: medical ethics; Christian ethics.
3. moral principles, as of an individual: His ethics forbade betrayal of a confidence.
4. ( usually used with a singular verb
From Caddy Shack
Smails: Good, good. You know, despite what happened, I'm still convinced that you have many fine qualities. I think you can still become a gentleman someday if you understand and abide by the rules of decent society. There's a lot of...well, badness in the world today. I see it in court every day. I've sentenced boys younger than you to the gas chamber. I didn't want to do it- I felt I owed it to them. The most important decision you can make right now is what you stand for- goodness...or badness.
Danny: I've made some mistakes in the past. I'm willing to make up for that. I want to be good!
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Just because something is possible doesn't mean it's likely. Again, where is the incentive for the "winning" school to cut off potentially $120,000+ of revenue at a stage in the process when getting a replacement would be difficult?
Violating code of conduct within a system that is outside the purview of the university (pharmcas) would hardly be a top priority in reducing your own revenues. Again, I said this before, schools cannot unilaterally kick you out once you've matriculated, there are processes and procedures they must go through in order to do that. That's time, and therefore money...
...so a school is going to waste its time and resources to strip itself of revenue because you liked them so much you lied to a competing school of pharmacy?
doesn't make much sense to me.
EDIT: not advocating people submit faithless deposits, just sayin'... i believe schools put on a "song and dance" about ethics and integrity (ie that scare letter you posted) but in the end they DO have to worry about the bottom line, making budgets, and satisfying the bean counters. what i post is my opinion on what goes on behind closed doors (or at least in the minds of those making decisions), just FYI.
kind of like the CIA agent in pakistan and the $2.5M bribe by the US...we weren't paying for his release, we were providing restitution to the victims (suuuure)
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confettiflyer, the only problem with your logic is that there are more than 8 applicants per seat collectively at the pharmacy schools. This means no loss of tuition revenue when there is someone else eagerly waiting to fill the seat. Getting a qualified replacement is not difficult.
As someone who knows what goes on behind closed doors, I can tell you that there is no "song and dance about ethics and integrity".
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I'll concede your point about the filling of the next seat (i would think it's program and/or time dependent. I'd be curious how long it would take for the whole process to take. If a school isn't promptly cashing deposit checks (like the next day), who's to say they won't hold it for a longer period of time?
For example, say student A sends in $500 (via CC) to school A on march 1 then gets into his 1st choice school B on march 31. He cancels his card on 4/1, but school A won't know this until they run the charge at some obscenely late time like 7/15. Figure it'll take 2 weeks (guesstimate) to figure out what happened, attempt to contact the student, report to pharmcas, then report to school B.
Extreme example, but it mimics SHC's post below. This was the scenario I was thinking of.
As for my line about the "song and dance" about ethics, a school cannot waver in its pursuit of the highest ethical and moral standards. That said, for some degree of financial preservation, a school would have to look the other way. An example is that sample letter you posted addressed to the fictional student who pulled back the deposit. It gave the school a way to take the moral high ground, but allow them to also keep a revenue generating student in the process.
I'll break down that letter here:
I recommend that you reverse the cancellation of your check (reissue a check) in the near future. If not, the XXX College of Pharmacy will need to turn the matter over to PharmCAS/AACP as a violation of the applicant code of conduct which could have an adverse impact on your admission to any school of pharmacy.
Basically, the school that sent this admits to the applicant that the school that got shafted needs to initiate the process in turning the matter over (though I'm confused...didn't that already happen seeing as the "winning" school got wind of this?).
Anyway, i'm off track here...sometimes we have to get creative to meld the need for moral high ground with maintaining financial integrity.
But eh, certified checks or prompt charging of cards would render this mental exercise moot. I wonder how many people actually spike their deposits?
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OH i know what I was getting at, sometimes there are no ethical or nonethical choices, there are only contracts and clauses.
It's like not paying for your mortgage. It's not some ethical dilemma, either you exercise clause A that says you pay and keep the house, or you don't and lose the house and get your credit trashed.
In terms of pharmcas, either you follow the rules or you don't and exercise the clause that you might get your admission pulled because of it. Spiking your deposit is your exercising of "clause B" and shows ones willingness to take on the risks/benefits of going down that path (risk: booted from pharm school, benefit: you save $500)
Obviously, some decisions are more cost-effective than others (ie upside down mortgage by $250,000 = most people who understand the system would live with bad credit for 3-4 years).
There we go, that's my argument, there are no ethics in contract law, and pharmcas is really one big contract, there are only decisions and consequences.
It's like not paying for your mortgage. It's not some ethical dilemma, either you exercise clause A that says you pay and keep the house, or you don't and lose the house and get your credit trashed.
In terms of pharmcas, either you follow the rules or you don't and exercise the clause that you might get your admission pulled because of it. Spiking your deposit is your exercising of "clause B" and shows ones willingness to take on the risks/benefits of going down that path (risk: booted from pharm school, benefit: you save $500)
Obviously, some decisions are more cost-effective than others (ie upside down mortgage by $250,000 = most people who understand the system would live with bad credit for 3-4 years).
There we go, that's my argument, there are no ethics in contract law, and pharmcas is really one big contract, there are only decisions and consequences.
There seems to be a lot of misconceptions around here as to what can actually happen if you make a stop payment.
I've managed at a bank before and dealt with this issue numerous times. First, most banks require you to fill out an affidavit when you report a stolen/lost check or card and want to place a hold or stop payment on your account. The affidavit usually consists of your explanation for the stop payment on the account. This affidavit is held as to be truthful under law. If you give false or misleading information you can be held liable for the cost.
All the institution who you wrote the check to/gave your card number to has to do is prove why the fees were being collected. By you submitting your application to the school, you are agreeing to pay all the fees.
So what happens if you stop your payment? The bank will notify the institution that the funds can no longer be rendered since the account holder placed a stop on the account. It is then up to the institution as to whether or not they want to pursue the matter. If the institution does, then all they have to do is notify the bank, the bank gives them the processing fees involved, and the account holder is billed for the costs. If you chose to ignore the bill you can and will be sent to collections and more fees will incur.
To make it short, I wouldn't just assume you can put a stop payment and everything is okay. You can be up ****s_creek without a paddle.
I've managed at a bank before and dealt with this issue numerous times. First, most banks require you to fill out an affidavit when you report a stolen/lost check or card and want to place a hold or stop payment on your account. The affidavit usually consists of your explanation for the stop payment on the account. This affidavit is held as to be truthful under law. If you give false or misleading information you can be held liable for the cost.
All the institution who you wrote the check to/gave your card number to has to do is prove why the fees were being collected. By you submitting your application to the school, you are agreeing to pay all the fees.
So what happens if you stop your payment? The bank will notify the institution that the funds can no longer be rendered since the account holder placed a stop on the account. It is then up to the institution as to whether or not they want to pursue the matter. If the institution does, then all they have to do is notify the bank, the bank gives them the processing fees involved, and the account holder is billed for the costs. If you chose to ignore the bill you can and will be sent to collections and more fees will incur.
To make it short, I wouldn't just assume you can put a stop payment and everything is okay. You can be up ****s_creek without a paddle.
I'm sorry, but you are wrong. Jen Athay at PharmCAS is trying to help and the information she is sharing is credible. I have actually witnessed legal action taken against a student for this and it affected her credit report, I have also seen someone reported for violating the student code of conduct and both PharmCAS and non-PharmCAS schools were notified causing the student essentially to be blacklisted from entering the profession. Evidence has shown that people who are unethical about "little things" will also be unethical about the big things as well (would be happy to share the citations - but you can find it yourself by searching for "ethical behavior" in your library). Furthermore, a school doesn't want to take that chance - the profession can't afford admitting future pharmacists with questionable ethics.
What you are all forgetting here is that there is a purpose for the deposit. The reason we are stuck on a waitlist is because people hold a seat they never intend to honor. Then they drop out, which causes a hole and the school has to pull someone off the waitlist, who then in turn left a hole at the school they were holding a seat at....and so on and so forth. This is why we could spend time on a waitlist until AUGUST because of the trickle down affect of double (and in some cases triple depositing). You think you are hurting the school, but the school is only trying to secure their class as quickly as possible with people who truly are interested in attending the program. The people you are really hurting is the rest of us who don't want to sit on a waitlist forever.
confettiflyer, I am aware that the small amount of money that schools collect from deposits of unmatriculated students goes right back to the student body in the form of scholarships or student programming. It is NOT a revenue maker and it is very easy to fill a seat in a pharmacy school as there are way more applicants than there are available seats. Also, it is not as difficult as you think to dismiss a student once he has matriculated and it is identified that the applicant code of conduct has been violated. Schools include statements in their application process that indicate that acceptance is contingent upon the accuracy of the information provided with statements also indicating that acceptances can and will be revoked in the event that information is discovered otherwise. Public schools are regulated by the constitution and therefore due process is indeed encouraged, private schools are regulated by contract law as you already indicated. In both scenarios, there are cases in which courts have supported schools who have revoked admission (again, a search of Westlaw can easily reveal these citations) based on this principle because essentially, the individual was never truly a student if the conduct provided within the application process was found to be unethical; especially if ethical behavior is a technical standard required for the study of the profession as pharmacy does. Private schools can easily kick a student out unilaterally for violating the "contract". Public schools only need to provide the minimum level of due process required by law and there are many cases in which the courts have supported public schools for these exact cases.
The fact that this thread has gone on as long as it has, quite frankly is sad; especially for aspiring PROFESSIONALS. The delusional part is the large number of people that are actually arguing about what is a very clear unethical infraction.
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This thread was dormant for two months before you decided to resurrect it.
Just saying...
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i read this line and didn't bother reading anymore of your post. bouncing/canceling a check has NOTHING TO DO WITH YOUR credit report/score. NONE. ZERO.
The only possible way for this is if they school goes to court, wins a judgment, and it becomes public record. and guess what...
schools aren't going to send $250/hr+ lawyers after you to collect a $1000 deposit, it doesn't make sense.
no **** that public figure jen athay is going to say "no no no, you must do right." do you really think the CEO of a bank will tell you to exercise the default clause on a loan (like other businesses do on a regular basis). NO!
Ms. Athay essentially has a fiduciary duty to the schools she works with. Now, if she had an alter ego, I'm pretty sure she'd share the same logic as me (that schools will NOT expend thousands of dollars in court/attorney fees to pursue students...across state lines sometimes!)
Jesus. Some of you need to use your heads. Stupid stupid stupid.
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I was intrigued so I read on. Are you talking about misrepresentation on an application? That's a huge step from someone canceling a check from someone else's matriculation agreement. You'd be hard pressed to find anything in Westlaw about cases actually going TO TRIAL upholding a university's right to kicking someone out for behavior that isn't explicitly illegal (withholding payment/canceling a check is NOT criminal in itself, it's a primarily a violation of a contract with an unrelated entity, which is a civil matter that has nothing to do with the student's winning school).
If anything, these cases are settled out of court and out of sight. Check fraud comes to mind, but chances are cases that are referred to the DA (if it gets that far) aren't going to get any type of priority for prosecution. So my advice stands, if you find yourself in this specific situation and a school hasn't cashed your check, by all means cancel it and deal with the benign consequences later. The worst that will likely happen is the school will ask you for the money vs. sending armies of lawyers after you and sullying your reputation with other schools. If that seems to be the case, then just pay.
It's all dollars and cents. Be your own fiduciary.
owlegrad
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I find your point of view interesting. Do you think people have no responsibility to pay their debts? Morally I mean. Agreeing to pay a deposit, then canceling the check strikes me as dishonest, even fraudulent.
I like your no-nonsense approach. I especially appreciate your commitment to actually posting the facts rather than making ridiculous claims to support your argument.
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So you revived this thread after it had been dead for a year. (this was the first necro bump)
You then revive it after it's been dead for 2 months. (this time)
What exactly is your motive?
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Ah something worth discussing (owlegrad, you ask the right questions, i like your style). My time in the business world has me jaded regarding any type of contract, I'll be talking a lot about mortgages in my post because it's a) the best example of a morality double standard, b) involves a contract with a large sum of money, c) has lots of emotions attached to it, and d) serves the most basic need according to Maslow.
In short, I think people have a responsibility for themselves, because no one else will assume that responsibility. When someone describes a contract as a promise to pay (even if it literally says "buyer promises to pay") it really is not a promise to pay, it's a set of choices & consequences that both parties agree to and is simply a series of if/then statements. Even IF those consequences aren't laid out explicitly in the contract, they may be implied or are explicitly stated elsewhere (ie check fraud laws of your jurisdiction).
There is no morality involved in any type of commercial agreement, you are not morally obligated to pay a debt. Your only obligation is to yourself and your position given the set of choices & consequences you face. Conversely, the school/bank/institution on the other side of the contract's obligation is to itself and only itself. It is an innate quality of a corporation to act on its own best interests, to not do so is a breach of fiduciary duty.
You may be compelled to pay a debt because the consequences of defaulting so are great (eviction, repossession, foreclosure, arrest, civil litigation), and in that case, paying may be in your best interest.
I push morality out of contracts like this because I believe the actor on the other side of the contract is physically incapable of morality (it's a corporation, or other non-human entity) and morality is inherently a human trait.
Further, most mortgages look something like this (in a nutshell):
Choice A: PAY: you keep the house
Choice B: NOT PAY: we take it back and ding your credit score (and depending on the law, we'll come after you for the difference if it's recourse).
It's like a "choose your own adventure" novel except with a lot of money. I don't see anywhere in the document where you have a "moral obligation" to pick choice A over choice B. The bank agreed to those consequences and evaluated the market conditions of your transaction, and priced its product accordingly. You are simply picking one workflow over another, nothing more, nothing less.
My extreme (admittedly not a real) example is a single man with a small family and little money applying to pharmacy school. He puts a deposit down but gets into a school closer to home, but suddenly loses his job. Faced with the choice of letting school A cash his check or canceling it and feeding his kids for a week, he cancels it without hesitation.
Was he right in doing so? I would argue the man in the example had a moral duty to protect himself and his family. Further, faced with a <1% chance (made this one up) of getting arrested and hauled off to jail, tried, convicted, and sentenced for check fraud or a 100% chance him/his kids won't eat for a week, the consequences compelled his decision making.
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Were you a philosophy major in a previous life? This is way too deep for SDN!!
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lol i wear many hats
plus i wanted some discussion, you could argue with a lot of stuff i posted
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well technicially he could just let the school cash the check and pay for his family's food on a credit card. You can always use credit card for emergenices etc.
I personally would cancel a check if it has not been cashed and I NO LONGER need to attend that school b/c it is the smartest and most logical move. I mean I NO LONGER NEED TO ATTEND THE SCHOOL. If I NO LONGER NEED IT, why on earth will I pay for it? That doesn't make any sense.
It's like if I broke up with a guy and I NO LONGER WANT HIM, does that mean I still need to call him every night b/c I use to do it before? Hell no! LOL...I am the type that I will do anything if it is something I NEED to do. But if it is something I no longer need to do or NEED to have then I just stop period.
Now, if it is something I DO NEED, but I refuse to pay for it then that is when there is a problem. If I need something from a store, but I didn't want to pay for it so I steal it! THATS A PROBLEM. If I need a house but I don't want to pay for it then thats a problem. When you NEED something, that's when you HAVE TO pay for it! If you don't you will have a problem! But if you don't need the item or thing or whatever, then I think it is only logical to NOT pay for it. I hope that makes more sense.
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lol i wear many hats
plus i wanted some discussion, you could argue with a lot of stuff i posted
I'm not compelled to argue when I agree with many of your points; I'll save the needless banter for someone else with spare time on his or her hands.
owlegrad
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Thanks!You make a good point. I remember waaaay back when I took a business law class one of the topics that came up was fraudulent checks, specifically checks that bounced due to insufficient funds. It's been too long so I don't remember all the details, but I do remember the professor telling the class that it is extremely rare for people to be criminally prosecuted in these instances. I remember their being a FL law on the matter, but he made it sound like the chances of a criminal convection from this were nil. Don't know if it is different for canceling a check vs insufficient funds, but I doubt it.
Sorry, I would love to engage you further on this topic, but at this time I am somewhat out of objections.
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Not everyone has a credit card, SHC. Are you really this sheltered?
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word!
Don't say that because if her being sheltered is the reason for her comments, then she is not completely liable for her comments.
NOTE: I reread my post and replaced "being" with "the" and completely left out "reason." I've been doing that alot lately. Partial seizures or something...
NOTE #2: Reread my "NOTE" and left out the word "alot" when I definitely said it in my head.
owlegrad
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dang it, i so did not want to kill this thread with that post, hahaha.
Also, another thing is called stale-dated checks. If a school hasn't cashed a check in six months, the bank has the right to refuse to cash it outright when it is presented. Depends on bank policy, but discretion is allowed.
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that wasn't the point of my example, hell why not have him give away his kids and move to Canada, problem solved.
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Well, sense you didn't intend to kill this thread, let me ask you this. What behaviors do you consider to be morally based vs contract based? We have touched on this before, but I think I understand your POV much better now.
For example, is a father who doesn't pay child support morally wrong or is he merely in breach of contract? Drunk drivers: endangering other lives morally wrong or just a violation of your contract with the DMV? How about a student who cheats? Morally wrong or merely a violation of the student contract? Just trying to get a sense of which behaviors are morally guided vs contract guided.
I guess what I am really getting at is this: does setting up a contract obsulve the person of moral responsibility? For example, say I offer to mow your lawn for 20 dollars. I mow your lawn, but you refuse to pay because once I have mowed your lawn it is no longer in your best interest to pay me. Morally wrong (if I mowed your lawn and didn't get paid I would certainly feel this way!) or perfectly acceptable because you are simply breaking the terms of our oral contract? Would your answer change if the contract was in writing?
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Yeah, he shouldn't have had kids he can't afford anyway.
The eye roll at the end is funny, but isn't this a true statement?
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The eye roll at the end is funny, but isn't this a true statement?
I guess I should have ended with LOL or lulz...
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Oh man, I think I'll have to sit on this for a few days for a good answer to come forward (if it comes at all). Each one will have a different answer, which to some means that I would be tailoring morals/ethics in a way that gives *me* the best outcome (vs. absolute right and wrong).
So the contract I sign with you to work on my house should contain a "no pay" clause with consequences far greater than the actual cost to me. This keeps us from falling into this issue of morality at this payment stalemate. If you come to work on my house and I refuse to pay you, technically a mechanic's lien can be put on my property and so the consequences are far greater than the $20 matter at hand.
But I see what you're saying, the difference here that I see is that a contract was signed person-to-person and not person-to-entity. It's also not a transfer of property, it's a service from one man to another, and I personally hold that to a higher standard than my agreement with Chase Bank, who has already risk priced the product it is giving me for default anyway.
In the end, you will get paid, either through me paying you $20 or from you extracting $20 + attorneys fees + filing fees from taking me to court. I can throw out my sense of right and wrong and operate as a rational actor looking at the #'s.
Other stuff -->
Laws should reflect the morals and priorities of society, so your contract with the State about drunk driving is really a regulatory embodiment of our morality as a people. To be guided by social contracts (laws) = being guided by morals.
Compare this with private contracts which represent transactions and choices, not morals, which is why I argue that morals don't have a place in contracts.
EDIT: i'm a mess today, i was going to delete this and edit later, but i figure i'll just post it anyway and let you all peck at it while i sleep
So I have a question, A friend of mines let me use his cc to make my seat deposit and the school notify me that there was a dispute with the transaction after a months time and now I dont know what to do. To the school I look like a liar but my friend potentially screwed me out and that was not the plan we originally discussed
