Straw-Man fallacy and SDN

[listener23]

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This is a commonly unchecked occurrence on SDN. If I say something like Hispanic American patients respond better to Hispanic American doctors vs Asian doctors, the responders than calls you racist for discriminating against asians. This completely ignores your original statement and confuses the readers of your true intention. I have saw the straw man used plenty of times on this site to derail Pro-URM arguments.

 

[darkjedi]

you are starting to embarrass yourself

 

[listener23]

you are starting to embarrass yourself

please elaborate

 

[mexdoc91]

People are just upset that an URM has a better chance of getting into an MD school over them. Race matters in the admissions game and people need to get over it.

 

[slightlygifted]

Think of all times where a white person does something like say they don't want a black waiter or something. This is considered pretty ignorant and racist. Usually the restaurant would kick that patron out as opposed to firing all the black waiters and hiring only white waiters. I know that for the Hispanic patient situation many would say it is different because of power dynamics and privilege, but it sure doesn't sound any different.

 

[listener23]

People are just upset that an URM has a better chance of getting into an MD school over them. Race matters in the admissions game and people need to get over it.

Exactly, the fact that I can't win with this logical argument shows the lack of diversity in medicine. It tells me there are not enough minority premeds to defend the needs of there community.

 

[Nexith]

Is the united states of american 45% asian. Than the physician population doesn't need to be… As an African american male I can attest the difference in quality of care and level of confront I receive from black physicians vs asian physician who can barely speak english.

Nah dude, people are calling you racist because you made a racist/generalizing comment, not to "derail Pro-URM discussions". Don't think your edit can erase what you originally said.

 

[listener23]

Nah dude, people are calling you racist because you made a racist/generalizing comment. Don't think your edit can erase what you originally said.

If you read the the whole thread you will see I was reporting on a specific instance where there was a language barrier between me and my Asian primary care physician….

 

[Mt Kilimanjaro]

Exactly, the fact that I can't win with this logical argument shows the lack of diversity in medicine. It tells me there are not enough minority premeds to defend the needs of there community.

Homonym Bandit strikes again.

 

[listener23]

Homonym Bandit strikes again.

Sorry grammar police, I typed that on a cell phone….. And once again you found a way to take attention away from the original issue

 

[Nexith]

If you read the the whole thread you will see I was reporting on a specific instance where there was a langue barrier between me and my Asian primary care physician….

Oh, no worries, I did read the whole thread.

So, what you're saying is that all Asian physicians will struggle with English then, based on this one instance?

That's a shame, I suppose I should really go work on my English to make sure this won't be an issue I have with my future patients.

 

[deleted407021]

I'll just leave this here.

 

[listener23]

Oh, no worries, I did read the whole thread.

So, what you're saying is that all Asian physicians will struggle with English then, based on this one instance?

That's a shame, I suppose I should really go work on my English to make sure this won't be an issue I have with my future patients.

Once again I apologize for my offensive way of getting my point across.


Im sure you have perfect english but certain social-ques that African American patients have will be completely foreign to you… Unless you grew up in one of these undeserved area the level of care and commnicatoin you can provide cannot compete with another black physician

 

[QuinnTheEskimo]

once again I apologize for my offense way of getting my point across.


I sure you have perfect english but certain social-ques that African American patients have will be completely foreign in to you… Unless you grew up in one of these undeserved area the level of care and commnicatoin you can provide cannot compete with another black physician

This has to be a troll. There is no other explanation.

 

[listener23]

This has to be a troll. There is no other explanation.

If your not going to engage in the conversation then simply don't reply.

 

[NontradCA]

Once again I apologize for my offensesive way of getting my point across.


Im sure you have perfect english but certain social-ques that African American patients have will be completely foreign in to you… Unless you grew up in one of these undeserved area the level of care and commnicatoin you can provide cannot compete with another black physician

Any race of physician can be culturally competent with another group. It's kind of ridiculous to say that we should only treat members of our own races. That's the opposite of progression.

 

[sourdoughllama]

Once again I apologize for my offensesive way of getting my point across.


Im sure you have perfect english but certain social-ques that African American patients have will be completely foreign in to you… Unless you grew up in one of these undeserved area the level of care and commnicatoin you can provide cannot compete with another black physician

A middle class or upper class african american physician will be as clueless as a middle class or upper class asian, white, hispanic, native american, gay, and lesbian doctor with regards to the social standards of an underserved area. People from those areas regardless of race will be savvy. Don't lump all URMs with ghetto neighborhoods. You disrespect all the work those who are successful URMs have done

 

[QuinnTheEskimo]

If your not going to engage in the conversation then simply don't reply.

You are posting offensive statements and writing like a third grader.

:troll:

 

[listener23]

"Never waste your time explaining yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - dream hampton

 

[listener23]

.

 

[Doctor Strange]

Oh, put it back in the deck...

 

[NontradCA]

A middle class or upper class african american physician will be as clueless as a middle class or upper class asian, white, hispanic, native american, gay, and lesbian doctor with regards to the social standards of an underserved area. People from those areas regardless of race will be savvy. Don't lump all URMs with ghetto neighborhoods. You disrespect all the work those who are successful URMs have done

I'm going to disagree with you in the fact that no matter what your "class" is in America you will still be tied to your race. That's just the type of society we live in. The fact is that regardless of income URMs are more likely to serve underrepresented and underserved populations.

 

[QuinnTheEskimo]

I'm going to disagree with you in the fact that no matter what your "class" is in America you will still be tied to your race. That's just the type of society we live in. The fact is that regardless of income URMs are more likely to serve underrepresented and underserved populations.

Link to this?

 

[Espadaleader]

@listener23 we have worked very hard to support URMs on this forum. Please don't mess things up.

1.) Yes, it is important to have diverse physicians in race and class.
2.) Yes, I would agree that there is an advantage to having physicians of your background but to say an Asian or a White person cannot take care of Black ppl is ludicrous.

 

[Espadaleader]

I just score a 33 on my last AAMC practice exam…. see you guys in med-schools

This is unacceptable. You cannot do this.

 

[sourdoughllama]

I'm going to disagree with you in the fact that no matter what your "class" is in America you will still be tied to your race. That's just the type of society we live in. The fact is that regardless of income URMs are more likely to serve underrepresented and underserved populations.

Agreed. However, you cannot expect Uncle Phil from Fresh Prince to be more well versed in underserved communities than Jesse from Breaking Bad. It's way too simplistic to say that black people will be better at interacting with underserved communities because they're black.

 

[listener23]

@listener23 we have worked very hard to support URMs on this forum. Please don't mess things up.

1.) Yes, it is important to have diverse physicians in race and class.
2.) Yes, I would agree that there is an advantage to having physicians of your background but to say an Asian or a White person cannot take care of Black ppl is ludicrous.

Im not saying they cannot, I'm saying that a black of similar back ground can do it more efficiently.

This is unacceptable. You cannot do this.

what?

 

[knv2u]

This is a commonly unchecked occurrence on SDN. If I say something like Hispanic American patients respond better to Hispanic American doctors vs Asian doctors, the responders than calls you racist for discriminating against asians. This completely ignores your original statement and confuses the readers of your true intention. I seen the straw man used plenty of times on this site to derail Pro-URM arguments.

There are plenty of straw man arguments on both sides. Unfortunately, logic and basic reasoning courses are not required of premedical students as any number of posts on any given day will clearly show. There are a good number here that seem willing to make knee jerk, emotional reactions/comments rather than being opening minded and having an intellectual discourse. It is truly sad that our next generation of physicians is so close minded.

 

[LuciusVorenus]

 

[Espadaleader]

Link to this?

http://www.amsa.org/AMSA/Homepage/about/priorities/diversity.aspx

 

[NontradCA]

Link to this?

You can google and pubmed.

 

[Espadaleader]

@listener23 - You can't just be like "oh I got a 33" and rub it in peoples faces. I go back and forth with @sourdoughllama almost everyday but I would never personally attack @sourdoughllama. You're distracting from the argument.

 

[Espadaleader]

You can google and pubmed.

I posted the link. I don't like when people say stuff without posting the data. I have this bookmarked lol.

 

[sourdoughllama]

@listener23 - You can't just be like "oh I got a 33" and rub it in peoples faces. I go back and forth with @sourdoughllama almost everyday but I would never personally attack @sourdoughllama. You're distracting from the argument.

Wat that was directed at me?? Lol I guess I'll take my lowly 26 MCAT and go in the corner haha

 

[ninjaman22]

 

[Espadaleader]

Having a diverse physician workforce is a critical component in making health care available to those who need it most. The lack of diversity of medical students, coupled with ineffective cultural competency education, continues to produce training and treatment environments that are biased, intolerant and contributory to health disparities.

1. Racial and ethnic minorities comprise 26% of the total population of the United States, yet only roughly 6% of practicing physicians are Latino, African American and Native American.*
2. Under-represented minority (URM) faculty account for only about 4% of U.S. medical school faculty members, and approximately 20% of URM faculty is located at six schools-Howard University, Meharry Medical College, Morehouse School of Medicine, and the three Puerto Rican medical schools.*
3. Black physicians were found to practice in areas where the proportion of Black residents was nearly five times as high as where other physicians practice. Likewise, Hispanic physicians worked in communities with twice the proportion of Hispanic residents when compared to their non-Hispanic colleagues.*
4. Nearly half of patients seen by African American physicians and one-third of patients seen by Asian and Pacific Islander and Hispanic physicians are Medicaid or uninsured patients.*
5. URM physicians are also more likely than their non-minority counterparts to conduct research to help reduce racial disparities in health care.

http://www.amsa.org/AMSA/Homepage/about/priorities/diversity.aspx

Bottom line URMs are most likely to work with underserved people. BUT it is foolish and disrespectful to say Asians are not treating underserved people too.

 

[Espadaleader]

@sourdoughllama you're like my number one rival on here lol. I have much respect though even though we disagree sharply on most issues because you keep things civil. Alright, I'm out. Happy hour time.

 

[NontradCA]

Agreed. However, you cannot expect Uncle Phil from Fresh Prince to be more well versed in underserved communities than Jesse from Breaking Bad. It's way too simplistic to say that black people will be better at interacting with underserved communities because they're black.

Yea because they don't live with someone from an underserved community... right?

 

[LVE]

Having a diverse physician workforce is a critical component in making health care available to those who need it most. The lack of diversity of medical students, coupled with ineffective cultural competency education, continues to produce training and treatment environments that are biased, intolerant and contributory to health disparities.

1. Racial and ethnic minorities comprise 26% of the total population of the United States, yet only roughly 6% of practicing physicians are Latino, African American and Native American.*
2. Under-represented minority (URM) faculty account for only about 4% of U.S. medical school faculty members, and approximately 20% of URM faculty is located at six schools-Howard University, Meharry Medical College, Morehouse School of Medicine, and the three Puerto Rican medical schools.*
3. Black physicians were found to practice in areas where the proportion of Black residents was nearly five times as high as where other physicians practice. Likewise, Hispanic physicians worked in communities with twice the proportion of Hispanic residents when compared to their non-Hispanic colleagues.*
4. Nearly half of patients seen by African American physicians and one-third of patients seen by Asian and Pacific Islander and Hispanic physicians are Medicaid or uninsured patients.*
5. URM physicians are also more likely than their non-minority counterparts to conduct research to help reduce racial disparities in health care.

http://www.amsa.org/AMSA/Homepage/about/priorities/diversity.aspx

Bottom line URMs are most likely to work with underserved people. BUT it is foolish and disrespectful to say Asians are not treating underserved people too.

This. A lot of users focus on the fact that giving URM an advantage in admissions isn't 'fair.' They are right, but they point of giving URM individuals an advantage isn't to even the playing field, it's because having more in medicine is beneficial to the profession and the country at large. Some people need to get over the perception of fairness and start living in the real world.

 

[QuinnTheEskimo]

This. A lot of users focus on the fact that giving URM an advantage in admissions isn't 'fair.' They are right, but they point of giving URM individuals an advantage isn't to even the playing field, it's because having more in medicine is beneficial to the profession and the country at large. Some people need to get over the perception of fairness and start living in the real world.

I'm increasingly convinced it's at least PARTLY because there would be an absolute uproar if adcoms stopped practicing affirmative action. The result would be a decrease in donations/federal funding. It all goes back to $$$$.

 

[LVE]

I'm increasingly convinced it's at least PARTLY because there would be an absolute uproar if adcoms stopped practicing affirmative action. The result would be a decrease in donations/federal funding. It all goes back to $$$$.

Sure. My main point is just that arguing from a position of 'this isn't fair' isn't going to get anywhere. The real reasons why URM get an advantage are many and complex.

 

[amazing tekkers]

Not sure if trolling in order to make AA look bad..

 

[masaraksh]

I'm increasingly convinced it's at least PARTLY because there would be an absolute uproar if adcoms stopped practicing affirmative action. The result would be a decrease in donations/federal funding. It all goes back to $$$$.

this confuses me.. I am not so sure that there would be a decrease in donations/funding to medical institutions if affirmative action was stopped. An enormous amount of money/power in this country is concentrated in a population that is predominantly old and white.

 

[QuinnTheEskimo]

this confuses me.. I am not so sure that there would be a decrease in donations/funding to medical institutions if affirmative action was stopped. An enormous amount of money/power in this country is concentrated in a population that is predominantly old and white.

They might be old and white, but most are (at least nominally) in favor of increasing diversity in the medical field. The donors would not be happy if the schools suddenly gave up on trying to attract minority applicants. It would look bad and un-pc.

 

[Mt Kilimanjaro]

Having a diverse physician workforce is a critical component in making health care available to those who need it most. The lack of diversity of medical students, coupled with ineffective cultural competency education, continues to produce training and treatment environments that are biased, intolerant and contributory to health disparities.

1. Racial and ethnic minorities comprise 26% of the total population of the United States, yet only roughly 6% of practicing physicians are Latino, African American and Native American.*
2. Under-represented minority (URM) faculty account for only about 4% of U.S. medical school faculty members, and approximately 20% of URM faculty is located at six schools-Howard University, Meharry Medical College, Morehouse School of Medicine, and the three Puerto Rican medical schools.*
3. Black physicians were found to practice in areas where the proportion of Black residents was nearly five times as high as where other physicians practice. Likewise, Hispanic physicians worked in communities with twice the proportion of Hispanic residents when compared to their non-Hispanic colleagues.*
4. Nearly half of patients seen by African American physicians and one-third of patients seen by Asian and Pacific Islander and Hispanic physicians are Medicaid or uninsured patients.*
5. URM physicians are also more likely than their non-minority counterparts to conduct research to help reduce racial disparities in health care.

http://www.amsa.org/AMSA/Homepage/about/priorities/diversity.aspx

Bottom line URMs are most likely to work with underserved people. BUT it is foolish and disrespectful to say Asians are not treating underserved people too.

it seems like these claims do not control for SES, which I would guess is the more important variable in determing whether someone practices in an underserved area. Maybe that's fleshed out more in the report.

According to #4, Asians and Hispanics see roughly equal proportions of Medicaid/uninsured, while black physicians see a slightly higher proportion. That doesn't help the case of Hispanic URMs much.

Who counts as a "racial and ethnic minority" in #1. Wouldn't that also include Asians? Chinese and Koreans are only a few percent of US population, but kick ass in higher education.

 

[supermintyfresh]

I agree with the idea that diversity is needed in the field to better treat patients, and this means pro-URM. Personally, I wouldn't mind if a physician of purple skin color treated me. However, many other individuals that I know (ie: my Asian grandmother) have a strict preference for Asian physicians. This is not only because so that there is no language barrier to overcome (she only speaks English), but also a cultural barrier (ie: there are certain things that are considered taboo in Asian culture, and she wants to be able to ask about aspects of health that only an Asian physician would know about). Replace Asian with any other ethnicity (whether it be Hispanic, Black, etc), and grandmother with any other family member or acquaintance and I'm sure the same argument applies.

 

[DermViser]

Agreed. However, you cannot expect Uncle Phil from Fresh Prince to be more well versed in underserved communities than Jesse from Breaking Bad. It's way too simplistic to say that black people will be better at interacting with underserved communities because they're black.

Simplistic arguments are all they have. They're easily edible and digested, with no requirement on the part of the organism to chew and process it. Hence why it comes straight out of one's ***.

 

[Psai]

I enjoyed the part where you made another id called breakmon to "like" your own posts.

 

[sliceofbread136]

People are just upset that an URM has a better chance of getting into an MD school over them. Race matters in the admissions game and people need to get over it.

People are just upset that a white person has a better chance of getting into the front bus seat over them. Race matters in the bus seat game and people need to get over it.

 

[MerickManual]

People are just upset that a white person has a better chance of getting into the front bus seat over them. Race matters in the bus seat game and people need to get over it.