Strength of gen surg program? How to compare with others?

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surg4me

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:rolleyes:
I am applying to general surgery and would like any help in trying to figure out how to categorize programs into thirds...top, middle, lower third.

When I applied, I asked my gen surg advisor and dean to make sure that I get a good range of programs. But I'd like to ask all of you what your opinions were.

I know that there's obviously a subjective component to this such as location, whether or not I mesh with the personalities, etc. but are there any objective way of helping to sort things out? (btw...I'm making notes of various things as I interview to help sort things out later)...

Where can I find the resources? Any websites or replies to this post would be helpful...even if you could create your own list of thirds based on places you've applied to or interviewed at (or will interview at)...

For example, some of the places where I have interview include UT Southwestern, URochester, UMass, MSU, St. Luke Roosevelt (NY), etc...where would you place them?
:)
Thanks for the help.

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Well, here is the thing when it comes to "tiering" programs. Understand the criteria by which most programs are tiered. When most people talk about first-tier programs, they're first-tier (in my thought) generally due to big-name recognition -- which is generally due to (again, in my thought) research.

First Tier: Here you've got your Mass Generals, your Johns Hopkins', and your U. Penns. They're first tier in the public laypeople's minds because many are Ivy League or easily recognized names (like a Stanford). They're first tier in the medical community because all those algorithms and recommendations you're following emanate from the rear end of these programs. Do you get better training here? Arguably, but probably in dealing with more cutting-edge or rare cases, on account of those are the places those cases get sent to via referral. You're not going to learn how to do a lap chole "better" than another residency program. Probably the best reason to go to first-tier programs are because a) name recognition helps get you fellowships and/or nice practices, b) you like to do buttloads of research, or c) you like to see your name under the words "Mass General" when you hang your diploma up in your living room, office, car, and bathroom (you make several copies).

Second-tier programs are generally at large institutions, either university-based non-first-tier centers or at well-established community programs. You learn to do bread-and-butter cases well and have decent to good research opportunities. These are your Temples, your SUNYs, your University of Nebraskas, etc. You go to these because a) you don't like research that much or b) you wanted to get into a first-tier program but didn't.

Third-tier programs are generally at smaller community institutions that are very poorly known, that have few ancillary resources, generally in rural areas, and (sorry) identified by their high concentration of FMGs and losers like me. They have little to no research available, they are in isolated regions, they are easily identified because nobody knows what the hell you're talking about (you mention where you matched and you see the rictus smile of courtesy on fellow medical students -- sweet!). You go here because you need to. I'm not actually sure of an example of one, but I'm sure someone can throw one out.

All of the programs you mentioned (I think) are solidly second-tier programs.
 
Something tells me you all hate me.
 
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thanks for the input
 
On the other hand, some of us choose rural, community programs because we want broad exposure and don't want to have fellows getting all the good cases.

Others I guess just have it thrust upon them.

I am the Great Saphenous!
 
Not all rural programs are third-tier, but they're definitely never going to be better than middle-second-tier. Also, what you say about not having to compete for cases with fellows is absolutely true, but at a rural hospital that tends to refer and not be referred to, you focus mainly on bread and butter cases. However, when it comes to bread and butter, my understanding is that some community hospitals train people better than some first-tier places just because they see so many of them.
 
True enough. My attraction to such programs lies in the opportunity to gain exposure in ENT, GYN, and ortho. The only university program I know of that offers that is OHSU.

I believe it was Yale a couple of years back that reported and average of 600 cases per resident. I know that some programs can overdo it, but that is just too few. When it is my turn to have my thyoid removed, its not going to be a surgeon's research into Ubiquitin that's going to put me at ease.
 
Better learn how to spell "thyoid," too ...KIDDING! :D
 
I'd eally like to but my hoible compute lacks the lette ___

Seiously!


:laugh:
 
so what's a good number of cases done during residency to look for?
 
avgjoe said:
so what's a good number of cases done during residency to look for?

To be an acrediteed program, residents at said program must do at least 500 and usually less than 1500. After that, it depends on what you want. If you are going into private practice, the more cases you do during residency, the better. However, if you are going to do a fellowship or some sort of advanced training, you can sacrifice a little bit. It's all about balance; if you spend too much time in the OR, something else will be missing. That said, I'm looking for a program that averages between 900-1200.
 
Look at the teaching cases and inquire carefully about the role of PA/NP. My program is one with a reptutation for being pretty good but it flat out sucks. The residents have no autonomy (and therefore log only 20 teaching cases). Many of the services are being completely turned over to PA's, with resident input being minimal and the residents being completely ignored by anciallary staff.

Good luck and enjoy the interview process.
 
You're just going to leave us hanging, aren't you?
 
kinetic said:
You're just going to leave us hanging, aren't you?
Dude, I think he is... :laugh:
 
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