Stressed/overwhelmed pre-med thoughts on ND schools and post grad

[Opticalfuture]

Hello, I am a junior in college and I'm interested in becoming a holistic/naturopathic doctor. My gpa isn't the best right its just 3.3 but I'm going to take at least a year off to take a break and work on my resume. Any advice for this program there's only 6 in the states right now and I need a few other extra classes to take after i graduate. I feel so overwhelmed though like the classes never end, since I just came back from a summer research internship, I didn't really had a break. I'm taking 17 hours.

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[deleted1100659]

Typically naturopathic medicine isnt encouraged on here because the majority of it is highly controversial. I have no idea about ND schools but I would recommend considering traditional medicine MD/DO, and if you're interested in holistic side of things, incorporating diet/exercise/etc interventions in your treatment plans.

 

[Opticalfuture]

Typically naturopathic medicine isnt encouraged on here because the majority of it is highly controversial. I have no idea about ND schools but I would recommend considering traditional medicine MD/DO, and if you're interested in holistic side of things, incorporating diet/exercise/etc interventions in your treatment plans.

I looked into ND programs and did the research and I like the holistic/natural medicine side of the program overview. Also, I don't want to take the mcat or go through residency, traditional medical school wouldn't be fit my timeline/work-balance(lifestyle I want to have). A lot of NDs work as primary care- they are board certified.

 

[deleted1100659]

I looked into ND programs and did the research and I like the holistic/natural medicine side of the program overview. Also, I don't want to take the mcat or go through residency, traditional medical school wouldn't be fit my timeline/work-balance(lifestyle I want to have). A lot of NDs work as primary care- they are board certified.

Residency is something that teaches people to become a medical professional, and is actually a perk rather than a detriment. Regardless, you seem to have made up your mind and I won't argue with you, just wanted to warn you that there is quite a big difference, and being a board certified ND is vastly different than a board certified MD/DO.

Still, good luck with your career, just suggesting you really think about your decision is all.

 

[Opticalfuture]

Residency is something that teaches people to become a medical professional, and is actually a perk rather than a detriment. Regardless, you seem to have made up your mind and I won't argue with you, just wanted to warn you that there is quite a big difference, and being a board certified ND is vastly different than a board certified MD/DO.

Still, good luck with your career, just suggesting you really think about your decision is all.

yes, I am aware of the differences and there's specific reasons why I want to do ND, and thanks!

 

[Moko]

I looked into ND programs and did the research and I like the holistic/natural medicine side of the program overview. Also, I don't want to take the mcat or go through residency, traditional medical school wouldn't be fit my timeline/work-balance(lifestyle I want to have). A lot of NDs work as primary care- they are board certified.

I would strongly advise against buying into the propaganda that naturopaths constantly peddle. Most of their interventions are not evidence-based, with many having been disproven. At best, the unique aspects of their "practice" are based on pseudoscience (read: sham/ineffective), and at worst, frank malpractice. Board certification means nothing when most of their field lacks rigor and/or proven efficacy. Who do you think oversees these ND "board certifications"? Their recognition as "providers" in some states is due to their intense lobbying efforts and not because of their qualifications and community impact. The fact that homeopathic "cures" are available at Whole Foods and other major suppliers is due to consumer demand (read: profit) rather than actual efficacy.

If your goal is to holistically care for patients, you can do that as a MD or DO: all of us can lend a therapeutic ear and recommend common sense prevention like eating more greens, exercising more, avoiding obesity, etc. As a real physician, you will also have the rigorous training to actually provide effective evidence-based medical care for patients. Medical training is not for everyone as the process is time-consuming, grueling, and expensive. It's good that you recognize that this path is not for you, there's nothing wrong with this realization. However, you can still be an integral part of a patient's care team by being a physician assistant, nutritionist, psychologist/therapist, PT/OT/SLP, case manager, social work, nurse, etc. Each of these roles can have a meaningful impact on a patient's (and their family's) life and allow you to holistically care for a patient at their most vulnerable moments. ND's have deluded themselves into thinking they are providing the same services, when the unique aspects of their "practice" merely exploit others' fears and vulnerabilities for their own personal gain.

If your goal is to actually help others and/or to first do no harm, pursue a real profession (inside or outside the field of healthcare). ND's are modern day snake oil salesmen. Just my thoughts.

 

[Opticalfuture]

I would strongly advise against buying into the propaganda that naturopaths constantly peddle. Most of their interventions are not evidence-based, with many having been disproven. At best, the unique aspects of their "practice" are based on pseudoscience (read: sham/ineffective), and at worst, frank malpractice. Board certification means nothing when most of their field lacks rigor and/or proven efficacy. Who do you think oversees these ND "board certifications"? Their recognition as "providers" in some states is due to their intense lobbying efforts and not because of their qualifications and community impact. The fact that homeopathic "cures" are available at Whole Foods and other major suppliers is due to consumer demand (read: profit) rather than actual efficacy.

If your goal is to holistically care for patients, you can do that as a MD or DO: all of us can lend a therapeutic ear and recommend common sense prevention like eating more greens, exercising more, avoiding obesity, etc. As a real physician, you will also have the rigorous training to actually provide effective evidence-based medical care for patients. Medical training is not for everyone as the process is time-consuming, grueling, and expensive. It's good that you recognize that this path is not for you, there's nothing wrong with this realization. However, you can still be an integral part of a patient's care team by being a physician assistant, nutritionist, psychologist/therapist, PT/OT/SLP, case manager, social work, nurse, etc. Each of these roles can have a meaningful impact on a patient's (and their family's) life and allow you to holistically care for a patient at their most vulnerable moments. ND's have deluded themselves into thinking they are providing the same services, when the unique aspects of their "practice" merely exploit others' fears and vulnerabilities for their own personal gain.

If your goal is to actually help others and/or to first do no harm, pursue a real profession (inside or outside the field of healthcare). ND's are modern day snake oil salesmen. Just my thoughts.

hi thanks for your opinions but I have done my own research and NDs are real doctors. You do go through 4 years of training and actually there is a growing number of them in the field. Its only going to expand more as people lean towards natural health. You can practice in many states not all.
Every career has its cons and Md is not for me I wouldn't want to be in school for 10 years when I can do the same in 4, even 2 years for PA or NP but you all still shame and mock those professions as they are not real doctors, but they do the real job though as one. To be honest most patients don't even care of their title we all do similar works and wear a white coat. My main goal is to treat people with no harm it doesn't matter if its not "traditional". I hope to open my own practice as an ND one day, a lot of NPs have med spas/ clinics. Anything is possible.

 

[chzsux]

NDs are not real doctors.

The 4 years of "training" are mostly pseudoscience or even just blatantly false information.

Let's get it straight, you want to be able to call yourself a "doctor" without putting in the actual time and effort. And we don't shame PAs/NPs - we only shame when things like NP diploma mills are churning out NPs that are lobbying for independent practice.

Furthermore, if a patient doesn't care about your title, it's most likely because they're uninformed, not because they don't care. What you'd be doing as a "doctor" would be blatantly deceitful if not harmful.

 

[Opticalfuture]

NDs are not real doctors.

The 4 years of "training" are mostly pseudoscience or even just blatantly false information.

Let's get it straight, you want to be able to call yourself a "doctor" without putting in the actual time and effort. And we don't shame PAs/NPs - we only shame when things like NP diploma mills are churning out NPs that are lobbying for independent practice.

Furthermore, if a patient doesn't care about your title, it's most likely because they're uninformed, not because they don't care. What you'd be doing as a "doctor" would be blatantly deceitful if not harmful.

you're just feeding in to what he's saying it's not true. Podiatrist are foot "doctors" right its that same thing even though they are not MDs! I've done plenty of research and even called the school about their program insight. You're degree is earned by the work sand not the school you attend. Just because its an ND program doesn't make it any lesser/easier. Neither know much about the field or actually been in it to explain your thoughts truthfully. This program makes you a well rounded doctor and that's what I want plus the natural medicine is not fake it actually does work. I have family members get treated from herbs without needing pharmacy drugs! It's a real science I think you should look into it more. This has so many natural plants that actually has healing elements its amazing.

 

[doomer_md]

Yep homeopathy works. Just ask Steve Jobs.

 

[Opticalfuture]

NDs are not real doctors.

The 4 years of "training" are mostly pseudoscience or even just blatantly false information.

Let's get it straight, you want to be able to call yourself a "doctor" without putting in the actual time and effort. And we don't shame PAs/NPs - we only shame when things like NP diploma mills are churning out NPs that are lobbying for independent practice.

Furthermore, if a patient doesn't care about your title, it's most likely because they're uninformed, not because they don't care. What you'd be doing as a "doctor" would be blatantly deceitful if not harmful.

what's harmful about it?? If anything you get more patient care time, there's nothing I see.

 

[deleted1100659]

what's harmful about it?? If anything you get more patient care time, there's nothing I see.

It takes a substantial amount of time to be a good doctor; the four years of medical school (MD/DO) are incredibly rigorous; and even then not enough training. You don't really start to acquire the skills to be an effective doctor until residency. Ultimately its the residency aspect that makes doctors.

 

[chzsux]

exactly!! my mom got healed from drinking some herbs she made when she contracted covid! It's real I believe there is some things you don't need medication for

You do realize that what they said about homeopathy and Steve Jobs was them being sarcastic right?

It's well known that when Jobs was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer (the most treatable kind of pancreatic cancer), instead of listening to his medical doctors, he underwent alternative therapies like switching to an all-fruit diet, undergoing "bowel cleansings", and herbal remedies. He eventually came around and got surgery and before his death called his choice to seek alternative naturopathic "treatment" one of his greatest regrets.

 

[Moko]

hi thanks for your opinions but I have done my own research and NDs are real doctors. You do go through 4 years of training and actually there is a growing number of them in the field. Its only going to expand more as people lean towards natural health. You can practice in many states not all.
Every career has its cons and Md is not for me I wouldn't want to be in school for 10 years when I can do the same in 4, even 2 years for PA or NP but you all still shame and mock those professions as they are not real doctors, but they do the real job though as one. To be honest most patients don't even care of their title we all do similar works and wear a white coat. My main goal is to treat people with no harm it doesn't matter if its not "traditional". I hope to open my own practice as an ND one day, a lot of NPs have med spas/ clinics. Anything is possible.

1) Let's clear up some terms. PA's and NP's are not doctors but they are medical providers. They do not have doctorate degrees such as MDs, DOs, PhDs and DNPs, etc. Most of us do not shame and/or mock PAs and NPs. I work with both regularly and my colleagues and I appreciate the role that we all play in a patient's care. Certainly, every hospital has their own culture, and I do not doubt that there are many physicians who look down upon other medical providers.
2) Even a clown can put on a white coat, but it doesn't give them any more legitimacy as a medical provider. A medical provider is not defined by what they wear, but by the training they have. Those peddling pseudoscience are in the wrong regardless of whether they have actual medical training (MDs and DOs included). That some people engage in shady practices does not justify morally ambiguous acts on your part or mine.
3) NDs are simply incomparable to actual medical providers (MDs/DOs, PAs, NPs). If you do not want to harm or take advantage of patients and their ignorance, fears and vulnerabilities, do not become a ND. It's that simple. However, you've clearly drunk their Kool-Aid and are more interested in convincing others that the work you plan to do has legitimacy. It does not. However, there is little that I or anyone else can do to treat intentional ignorance. Hopefully you will come around before you join the circus that is naturopathic "medicine". Best of luck.

 

[Opticalfuture]

You do realize that what they said about homeopathy and Steve Jobs was them being sarcastic right?

It's well known that when Jobs was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer (the most treatable kind of pancreatic cancer), instead of listening to his medical doctors, he underwent alternative therapies like switching to an all-fruit diet, undergoing "bowel cleansings", and herbal remedies. He eventually came around and got surgery and before his death called his choice to seek alternative naturopathic "treatment" one of his greatest regrets.

well that was him, every person experience is different it depends. Usually Nds are like the last resort when MDs can't solve their problems.

 

[IlDestriero]

You either want to be a physician or you don’t.
Don’t believe that a Naturopathic degree is equivalent to a medical degree or that it will make you a physician or even a competent primary care practitioner. And you might be board certified in some Naturopathic thing, but it ain’t medicine. So that’s a false equivalence there as well.
Knowing that, if you still want to be a naturopath, go for it.
Good luck.
As an aside, similar to Steve Jobs, my old administrative assistant chose traditional Asian medicine for her breast cancer. Like Steve, and that guy in the Indiana Jones movie, she chose poorly. Do these practitioners really believe cupping, herbs and some acupuncture can cure cancer? Do they care? I don’t know.

 

[Opticalfuture]

1) Let's clear up some terms. PA's and NP's are not doctors but they are medical providers. They do not have doctorate degrees such as MDs, DOs, PhDs and DNPs, etc. Most of us do not shame and/or mock PAs and NPs. I work with both regularly and my colleagues and I appreciate the role that we all play in a patient's care. Certainly, every hospital has their own culture, and I do not doubt that there are many physicians who look down upon other medical providers.
2) Even a clown can put on a white coat, but it doesn't give them any more legitimacy as a medical provider. A medical provider is not defined by what they wear, but by the training they have. Those peddling pseudoscience are in the wrong regardless of whether they have actual medical training (MDs and DOs included). That some people engage in shady practices does not justify morally ambiguous acts on your part or mine.
3) NDs are simply incomparable to actual medical providers (MDs/DOs, PAs, NPs). If you do not want to harm or take advantage of patients and their ignorance, fears and vulnerabilities, do not become a ND. It's that simple. However, you've clearly drunk their Kool-Aid and are more interested in convincing others that the work you plan to do has legitimacy. It does not. However, there is little that I or anyone else can do to treat intentional ignorance. Hopefully you will come around before you join the circus that is naturopathic "medicine". Best of luck.

I'm good, nice effort though for trying!

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

well that was him, every person experience is different it depends. Usually Nds are like the last resort when MDs can't solve their problems.

Desperate people often make bad decisions

 

[Opticalfuture]

Desperate people often make bad decisions

the MDs didn't give their best evaluation, so that's the fault. I've heard many positive stories of NDs diagnosis.

 

[chzsux]

the MDs didn't give their best evaluation, so that's the fault. I've heard many positive stories of NDs diagnosis.

And I’ve heard stories of NDs giving “vitamins” to people with cancer and telling them to quit their chemotherapy treatments

 

[IlDestriero]

the MDs didn't give their best evaluation, so that's the fault. I've heard many positive stories of NDs diagnosis.

We save our good evaluations for the patients with the good insurance.
The fault is desperate gravely ill patients being taken in my con artists in white coats. And probably some magical thinking.

 

[DoctorFate]

I love this thread. My parents are so into homeopathy and naturopathic medicine while I can clearly see it is all BS. Believers in this field are never convinced by facts and evidence so arguing is usually pointless haha. Honestly, people who seek naturopathic care are usually even more willfully ignorant than people promoting it, and if they're willing to make terrible decisions then let them receive terrible treatment.

The only thing I'll say is my financial argument. Each year of ND school costs about 40k, with about 25k of living costs. So your total cost for ND school is 260k not including interest. The median ND income is about 100k, from what I can see online, which substantial variance (70k to 140k). The cost of the degree doesn't seem worth it to me, personally. If you're willing to take on that debt, then go for it OP! Can't wait to see more Steve Jobs-type people walking out of your office.

As an aside, if this is an attempt to troll, OP literally chose the best possible public forum to do it.

 

[Opticalfuture]

We save our good evaluations for the patients with the good insurance.
The fault is desperate gravely ill patients being taken in my con artists in white coats. And probably some magical thinking.

that's the problem with our health care people only care about the money, NDs are compassionate and actually spend more than 10 minutes with their patient and listen to their problems.

 

[IlDestriero]

that's the problem with our health care people only care about the money, NDs are compassionate and actually spend more than 10 minutes with their patient and listen to their problems.

It’s a shame they can’t fix them.

 

[Opticalfuture]

I love this thread. My parents are so into homeopathy and naturopathic medicine while I can clearly see it is all BS. Believers in this field are never convinced by facts and evidence so arguing is usually pointless haha. Honestly, people who seek naturopathic care are usually even more willfully ignorant than people promoting it, and if they're willing to make terrible decisions then let them receive terrible treatment.

The only thing I'll say is my financial argument. Each year of ND school costs about 40k, with about 25k of living costs. So your total cost for ND school is 260k not including interest. The median ND income is about 100k, from what I can see online, which substantial variance (70k to 140k). The cost of the degree doesn't seem worth it to me, personally. If you're willing to take on that debt, then go for it OP! Can't wait to see more Steve Jobs-type people walking out of your office.

As an aside, if this is an attempt to troll, OP literally chose the best possible public forum to do it.

you're literally focused on the negative when there is good in this field! such a shame all of you shame other who don't want to go to medical school ,its not for everyone but you can still be a good healthcare provider in something else. Pharmacy- they are not real doctors too I hear, optometrist, audiologist, a bunch that's not considered "real" but they all worked for their degrees and trained it was deserved!

 

[Opticalfuture]

And I’ve heard stories of NDs giving “vitamins” to people with cancer and telling them to quit their chemotherapy treatments

you know every doctor has their own way of treating right? It's not all like that

 

[DoctorFate]

you're literally focused on the negative when there is good in this field! such a shame all of you shame other who don't want to go to medical school ,its not for everyone but you can still be a good healthcare provider in something else. Pharmacy- they are not real doctors too I hear, optometrist, audiologist, a bunch that's not considered "real" but they all worked for their degrees and trained it was deserved!

No one here said any of that. We all respect their roles in medicine. You're just projecting our disdain for ND's on every other field.

 

[treeclimbingmonkey]

Hello, I am a junior in college and I'm interested in becoming a holistic/naturopathic doctor. My gpa isn't the best right its just 3.3 but I'm going to take at least a year off to take a break and work on my resume. Any advice for this program there's only 6 in the states right now and I need a few other extra classes to take after i graduate. I feel so overwhelmed though like the classes never end, since I just came back from a summer research internship, I didn't really had a break. I'm taking 17 hours.

I don't understand why OP posted this question in a pre-medical (MD) forum in the first place. @Opticalfuture You are obviously going to get a lot of pushback about this profession, especially in a forum for those pursuing careers in traditional allopathic medicine...

 

[Opticalfuture]

And I’ve heard stories of NDs giving “vitamins” to people with cancer and telling them to quit their chemotherapy treatments

you know every doctor has their own way of treating right? It's not all like that

No one here said any of that. We all respect their roles in medicine. You're just projecting our disdain for ND's on every other field.

no I've seen that in other forums about these professions

 

[Opticalfuture]

I don't understand why OP posted this question in a pre-medical (MD) forum in the first place. @Opticalfuture You are obviously going to get a lot of pushback about this profession, especially in a forum for those pursuing careers in traditional allopathic medicine...

where was I suppose to post this

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

you know every doctor has their own way of treating right? It's not all like that

Real doctors have some variations, true. But, not usually hugely different.

 

[treeclimbingmonkey]

where was I suppose to post this

There are other forums out there-- you can post in premed 101. I just don't think this is a good place to post it. You are going to get a lot of pushback, negativity, and generally dislike from the audience.

You might want to check out this article by an ND:
ND Confession, Part 1: Clinical training inside and out

Also this blog:
Naturopathic Diaries

 

[gyngyn]

It does not appear that OP is actually here for advice.
Closing.