Strong match list

[hopefulhandy]

Hello all,

I was just wondering what exactly I should be looking for when comparing match lists at prospective schools I may want to attend. I was told by a few people that a good match list would be a good indicator on how well the school prepares its students for when that time comes. What exactly should I be looking for when looking at different match lists? What makes it strong or a successful?

Thank you guys!

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[ridethecliche]

If you see people matching ortho, derm, etc then it's strong.

Look at charts for avg board scores by specialty to get a better idea. Also higher average step scores indicate the class was better prepared as a whole.

 

[GomersGoToGround]

Too many variables that are not shown in a match list include, but are not limited to:

• Student interests
• Actual primary and secondary choices of the student
• Strength of programs: Just because you know the name, doesn't mean it's a good residency program. Many medical schools sound outstanding, but are really only known for their undergrad. Additionally, a hospital may be considered a powerhouse, but is that because the fellows/attendings take all the cases, while not really letting residents play and learn? Better to go somewhere where you personally are allowed hands-on experience with more cases.
• Reasons that students actually chose a specific residency (family, location, etc.)

Also keep in mind that where you match is much more based upon you as an individual (application) than where you attend school. If you go through enough match lists, you'll see plenty of students match into the same programs as those at big-names schools.

Plus, is the match list due to the outstanding school, or the fact that the school attracts outstanding applicants?
If you are considered an outstanding applicant, and work as an outstanding student with the resources you have, then you'll likely have a good time.

 

[WingedOx]

DONT!

Seriously. It's not hyperbole to say a match list tells a pre-med NOTHING.

Honestly, it tells me NOTHING unless I'm looking at my specific specialty.

 

[tima]

DONT!

Seriously. It's not hyperbole to say a match list tells a pre-med NOTHING.

Honestly, it tells me NOTHING unless I'm looking at my specific specialty.

+1

Match lists vary from year to year. I would pay more attention to the academics of the school than a match list.

 

[AspiringERMD]

This is very interesting, and I'm glad I'm reading this thread. This is why I love SDN; people take my misconceptions and squash them.

I was under the impression that the match list is one of the most important criteria to look into when selecting a medical school, but now that you mention it... you're right; what do I know about the quality of a particular institution's residency? I'm not even an M1 yet.

Hmmmm. I need pondering time...

 

[deuist]

The match list can indeed be useful, but only if you know what you're looking for. Let's say that you want to go into ophthalmology and you notice a particular school is sending 12 people a year into the field, then that school might be worth applying to. Also, if a graduating class of 150 students has 40 people going into internal medicine, 30 going to pediatrics, and 4 going into family medicine, then you know what specialties the curriculum emphasizes. The problem is if you don't know what you want to go into, looking at specialty choices can be pretty difficult.

 

[Visible Ghost]

boards are the next mcats

 

[AspiringERMD]

The match list can indeed be useful, but only if you know what you're looking for. Let's say that you want to go into ophthalmology and you notice a particular school is sending 12 people a year into the field, then that school might be worth applying to. Also, if a graduating class of 150 students has 40 people going into internal medicine, 30 going to pediatrics, and 4 going into family medicine, then you know what specialties the curriculum emphasizes. The problem is if you don't know what you want to go into, looking at specialty choices can be pretty difficult.

Thanks, that's helpful. I'm definitely interested in learning how to interpret match lists as best I can for now, and that's staightforward and makes sense.

 

[WingedOx]

The match list can indeed be useful, but only if you know what you're looking for. Let's say that you want to go into ophthalmology and you notice a particular school is sending 12 people a year into the field, then that school might be worth applying to. Also, if a graduating class of 150 students has 40 people going into internal medicine, 30 going to pediatrics, and 4 going into family medicine, then you know what specialties the curriculum emphasizes. The problem is if you don't know what you want to go into, looking at specialty choices can be pretty difficult.

Problem with that is you'd really need to see multiple year match lists to see if such a thing for one individual class or a pattern throughout the school. And even then, I'm not sure if said data is particularly useful for picking a school. a higher skew of residents to one specialty or another may indicate that experiences in the clinical or preclinical years is swaying undecideds toward certain specialties rather than "this school will open more doors for people that want this specialty".

Different resources for different schools can also be double-edged swords. Let's say you go to a school like Jefferson and have Wills Eye next door. It's good because you have a massive famous institution to learn from and have your CV attached to, but at the same time you have to fight like crazy to get noticed at a place like that at a medical student considering that students from all over the country/world are competing to get letters out of such a place... something that wouldn't be as much of a problem in a smaller more intimate ophtho program. ...and all this is WAY beyond what you're going to see from the match list.

 

[Sust]

Does anyone else think that there's an effect in non-random sampling of an ultra-distilled group of highly intelligent, motivated, and resourceful men and women that might also affect school match lists too?

IMO, outsiders interpreting match lists is impossible, and even med school insiders have trouble interpreting them too because only residency/fellowship directors know the inside scoop on each specialties' programs. I do agree with another poster who said that some(e.g. state) schools clearly select for people interested in primary care which will be reflected in each year's match list.

I recommend ignoring match lists until clinical years or at least going to talk to physicians in your areas of interest.
Go with med school where you think you will be happiest and most supported outside of school.

 

[dacas]

.

 

[ridethecliche]

DONT!

Seriously. Tis not hyperbole to say a match list tells a pre-med NOTHING.

Honestly, it tells me NOTHING unless I'm looking at my specific specialty.

What if you are looking at specific specialties?

I'm entering school with an interest in surgery, if I have multiple acceptances, I'm going to pick based on:
a) Where I'll have the best shot of getting into a surgical residency. If a school has had no one match ortho for 5 years, then I'm probably not going to go there.
b) Board scores. Away rotations can make up for 'weaker' rotations at med school sites, but high board scores indicate that a school is good at preparing its students for step 1, which is important. I can probably get help from current mentors to get away rotations so that's good.
c) Looking at match lists is a good way to evaluate where kids go and what the school 'pushes' so to speak.

I have a feeling C is the least important because I kinda just made it up. BOOYAH!

 

[Australopithekus]

What if you are looking at specific specialties?

I'm entering school with an interest in surgery, if I have multiple acceptances, I'm going to pick based on:
a) Where I'll have the best shot of getting into a surgical residency. If a school has had no one match ortho for 5 years, then I'm probably not going to go there.
b) Board scores. Away rotations can make up for 'weaker' rotations at med school sites, but high board scores indicate that a school is good at preparing its students for step 1, which is important. I can probably get help from current mentors to get away rotations so that's good.
c) Looking at match lists is a good way to evaluate where kids go and what the school 'pushes' so to speak.

I have a feeling C is the least important because I kinda just made it up. BOOYAH!

It's not that simple. let's pick these apart:
a) I doubt any non-mission focused US MD school has this problem. Show me if I'm wrong.
b) Board scores are probably influenced by the curriculum, but medical school curricula aren't that different. A much larger factor is the caliber of student at each school. I'm sure WashU's Step 1 average is significantly higher than, say, Drexel's. But so its it's MCAT average; each school is simply starting with a different set of students. If you took WashU students and Drexel students and switched their schools, would their scores change? I'm not convinced they would.
c) It's a good way to evaluate where students go, sure. But that's not the same as where they can go. A school with 90% OOS matriculants is probably going to match to a much spread across the country than a school with 90% IS matriculants. Remember that many students will target residency programs close to home.

 

[CliveStaples]

What if you are looking at specific specialties?

I'm entering school with an interest in surgery, if I have multiple acceptances, I'm going to pick based on:
a) Where I'll have the best shot of getting into a surgical residency. If a school has had no one match ortho for 5 years, then I'm probably not going to go there.
b) Board scores. Away rotations can make up for 'weaker' rotations at med school sites, but high board scores indicate that a school is good at preparing its students for step 1, which is important. I can probably get help from current mentors to get away rotations so that's good.
c) Looking at match lists is a good way to evaluate where kids go and what the school 'pushes' so to speak.

I have a feeling C is the least important because I kinda just made it up. BOOYAH!

A) While a 5 year history helps to eliminate some of the sample size bias, you're still at risk of having numbers that "look" poor for whatever surgical subset you're interested in, when really you're just looking at a few years where graduates simply weren't interested in that surgical subset. More useful is determining if the school actually has a residency in that program. If they have a program, you've got a good shot of matching there, or at least in getting networked into that specialty.

B) Where are you getting board exam scores from? These are often difficult to find, or they come from secondhand sources with little credibility. Averages fluctuate between years, and the greatest indicator of performance is based on individual skill and preparation, not the preclinical curriculum. I would be more interested in my school's hospital's reputation in surgical subspecialties than I would be interested in what the previous years's board scores.

C) Looking at match lists is a curiosity at best. You look at the match list and see somebody matched at Yale for Orthopedic Surgery and that might be impressive to you; but if you asked that applicant, maybe it was his/her 9th choice on his/her list and is really unsatisfied.


Ultimately, my advice to undergraduate students on choosing a medical school is simple.

1) Choose the place where you feel that you will be happiest and most successful. Maybe this is because it is close to home or because it was an environment that you enjoyed when you visited. Your mental status, contentment, and happiness will determine your success more than anything.

2) When schools seem to be equally good options to you (or they are at least close), go with the less expensive school. Every time. The pressures of money can and will influence your choice of specialty. They can and will influence your choice of practice after residency. They can and will make huge influences on your options for your quality of life for the foreseeable future. Don't underestimate how much money 20k or 10k a years difference is by choosing a cheaper school.

 

[Psai]

Look at how good your school's reputation is, if you feel comfortable there and how much money you will be spending to go there. Don't think about things like match lists, it won't help you in the slightest

 

[WingedOx]

What if you are looking at specific specialties?

I'm entering school with an interest in surgery, if I have multiple acceptances, I'm going to pick based on:
a) Where I'll have the best shot of getting into a surgical residency. If a school has had no one match ortho for 5 years, then I'm probably not going to go there.
b) Board scores. Away rotations can make up for 'weaker' rotations at med school sites, but high board scores indicate that a school is good at preparing its students for step 1, which is important. I can probably get help from current mentors to get away rotations so that's good.
c) Looking at match lists is a good way to evaluate where kids go and what the school 'pushes' so to speak.

I have a feeling C is the least important because I kinda just made it up. BOOYAH!

Regarding C: you honestly have no idea what is or isn't a good program. There are times when you'll see a really impressive name on a list, but they may have a sh-tty residency for various reasons.

 

[ridethecliche]

Regarding C: you honestly have no idea what is or isn't a good program. There are times when you'll see a really impressive name on a list, but they may have a sh-tty residency for various reasons.

I wasn't going by name of the institution matched at just the specialty. Figured it evened out.

 

[MEN2C]

I wasn't going by name of the institution matched at just the specialty. Figured it evened out.

That's weird. There is three times as many optho and twice as many derm this year from my school compared to last year. The caliber of the student didn't change - only their interests. People who are AOA also choose FM. It's much more individual than you're realizing.

 

[ridethecliche]

Which is why aggregate data over like 5 years is what I am after.

 

[DrOMG]

Is there one place where you can see schools average board scores or do you just have to find it on their website/interview day? I was hoping it was listed on MSAR.

 

[deuist]

There is no aggregated list of board scores. You will just have to ask around.

 

[areserine]

USNWR has scores from step 1 and 2. Are those inaccurate for some reason?

 

[breakintheroof]

It's also self-reported, with no transparency about how the institutional average was derived (i.e. was it one year?; if so what year?; is it a running average?)

I think it is a one-year mean. UVA posts a report they receive from the NBME on their Step 1 examinees each year. What US News reports for UVA matches the number of first-time examinees, pass rate, and mean from the year 2012. These numbers also match for Step 2 CK. (Though US News says this is based on 2013 data. UVA's examinees did a bit better on Step 1 that year and bit worse on Step 2 CK.)

You do have to buy the Compass subscription to access this information.

 

[Goro]

Yup. One thing I've learned from my clinical colleagues is that with such variability, I'm better off asking our SDN residents their opinion. After all, they're the ones deep in the trenches in this particular fight.

DONT!

Seriously. It's not hyperbole to say a match list tells a pre-med NOTHING.

Honestly, it tells me NOTHING unless I'm looking at my specific specialty.

 

[WingedOx]

Yup. One thing I've learned from my clinical colleagues is that with such variability, I'm better off asking our SDN residents their opinion. After all, they're the ones deep in the trenches in this particular fight.

and even then it's hard to keep up. I'll hear stories about how Program A lost a bunch of faculty and is now in the tank within the last 3 years or program B that was previously pretty so "meh" that they didn't like hiring their own residents, but have now acquired a bunch of new faculty from program A and increasing its class size and starting new fellowships.