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Student loan debt now greater than credit card debt
- Thread starter Hope1974
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In my opinion, this switch has a number of causes:
- People go back to school to wait out a recession / retrain when they can't find a job. College enrollments are up quite a bit in the last 3 years.
- With the unemployment rate high for less trained workers, everyone is taking to heart the mantra that education will get you everywhere. There seems to be more appetite among consumers for student debt in the last couple years.
- In a poor economy, more people write credit cards off in bankruptcy or default (along with the house). I believe collections accounts for former credit cards now in default do not count towards the total "credit card debt" figure being cited by this source - they are categorized separately.
- The savings rate has increased quite a bit in the last couple years. The first thing smart savers do is pay down / off credit cards, because that has the highest ROI.
- While tuition costs have increased a lot in the last decade due to lower funding of public colleges & less available as grants, I feel student loans overtaking credit card charges is a symptom with a more acute cause. The underlying disease (higher tuition) does play a role, and student loans overtaking credit cards may have been inevitable, but the acute causes above greatly sped up this process in my opinion.
- Credit card companies have been forced to educate their consumers & cease/limit predatory lending practices (like lending large amounts to income-less students). This is not the case with student loans, especially private loans. Students often don't understand the reality of paying back the loan in the workforce, or to what level they should limit their debt.
- People go back to school to wait out a recession / retrain when they can't find a job. College enrollments are up quite a bit in the last 3 years.
- With the unemployment rate high for less trained workers, everyone is taking to heart the mantra that education will get you everywhere. There seems to be more appetite among consumers for student debt in the last couple years.
- In a poor economy, more people write credit cards off in bankruptcy or default (along with the house). I believe collections accounts for former credit cards now in default do not count towards the total "credit card debt" figure being cited by this source - they are categorized separately.
- The savings rate has increased quite a bit in the last couple years. The first thing smart savers do is pay down / off credit cards, because that has the highest ROI.
- While tuition costs have increased a lot in the last decade due to lower funding of public colleges & less available as grants, I feel student loans overtaking credit card charges is a symptom with a more acute cause. The underlying disease (higher tuition) does play a role, and student loans overtaking credit cards may have been inevitable, but the acute causes above greatly sped up this process in my opinion.
- Credit card companies have been forced to educate their consumers & cease/limit predatory lending practices (like lending large amounts to income-less students). This is not the case with student loans, especially private loans. Students often don't understand the reality of paying back the loan in the workforce, or to what level they should limit their debt.
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owlegrad
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Interesting article. I agree with the main gist of the article.
Favorite quote:
It just shows how skewed our priorities are that this is considered a waste of money.
I can't quite bring myself to believe that it is a waste, but the high drop pout rate is worth investigating. I bet those numbers are inaccurate though - many people who go to a CC are not in it for a degree, some just take particular classes for specific reasons (for example my mom took a Quickbook class at a CC, she should hardly be considered a drop out just because she didn't get a degree). I wonder if they are considered in the drop our rate.- Joined
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Interesting article. I agree with the main gist of the article.
Favorite quote:
It just shows how skewed our priorities are that this is considered a waste of money.
When i went to cc, to take a few classes, the admissions person strongly pressured me into declaring that i was a degree seeking student. Not sure why, as i'm sure I contributed to the dropout rate. I got some kind of better deal on the courses, and I'm wondering now, maybe the college gets some kind of additional govt money from such students.
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Student loan debt is depressing.
Everyday, I conjure up schemes to pay off my student loans. I think to myself, "Should I get rid of these loans or those loans, should I worry about the interest rate or the number of accounts that I have open?, if I default, should I have consolidated?, how much can I afford to pay each month, $4,000, $5,000?"
It's nerve-racking!
Everyday, I conjure up schemes to pay off my student loans. I think to myself, "Should I get rid of these loans or those loans, should I worry about the interest rate or the number of accounts that I have open?, if I default, should I have consolidated?, how much can I afford to pay each month, $4,000, $5,000?"
It's nerve-racking!
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I heard it's getting harder to get a loan now... with this high interest rate it's even worst for the students.
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Well. A pharmacist cannot afford a $5000/month student loan bill. So I hope you aren't banking on that.
A reasonable student loan payment is ~$1000/month over 10 years. A reasonable total indebtedness is ~$100,000/total.
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A pharmacist working full time + a PRN position who lives very cheaply could (and as I recall that's what she's doing). That sort of plan isn't for everyone, but I can certainly see the appeal.
Define lives very cheaply.
My wife and I are doing that right now (she's a high school teacher). Making about $160k together, living on ~$30-35k, and paying $5000/mo on student loans. Will be done in ~2 years more if we can keep it up (had about $170k total debt to start). If not, we're still on an accelerated pace anyhow.
So, I guess a pharmacist alone it might be harder, but mind you my wife does not get paid a ton as a teacher and we're feeding/housing/clothing two people/cars versus one. Then again, we haven't even figured out what she would make when/if she gets a second job during the summer, so we could be paying down even faster. Plus there's always extra hours being tossed around with people going on vacations and such in the retail world.
In short, yes it is do-able, but you have to commit and live reasonably (and it depends where you live obviously).
So, I guess a pharmacist alone it might be harder, but mind you my wife does not get paid a ton as a teacher and we're feeding/housing/clothing two people/cars versus one. Then again, we haven't even figured out what she would make when/if she gets a second job during the summer, so we could be paying down even faster. Plus there's always extra hours being tossed around with people going on vacations and such in the retail world.
In short, yes it is do-able, but you have to commit and live reasonably (and it depends where you live obviously).
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Sure, I'll play along. Median pharmacist salary is 111K (according to BLS), and if you pick up 2 shifts of 8 hours apiece via a PRN position assuming a similar rate of pay, you can hit 150K. Taxes are obviously going to be variable depending on where you live, but to make things simple we'll take 1/3 off the top for taxes, leaving 100K. 5K X 12 = 60K/year in student loan payments, leaving 40K to live off of. I wouldn't consider having to live off of 40K after taxes even living cheaply, much less "very cheaply"
(And yes, I realize there are plenty of factors that weren't taken into account. Please don't take this too seriously.)
What part of that 160k is your wife's salary?
I pay $5000 a month. Every once in awhile, I even pay $6000. I live comfortably. I have my own place. If I want something, I get it, but I am not wasteful. I've been on a few vacations already this year. How do I do it? Almost everything I make from my main job goes to loans. I work a few days a month at my prn job and with that job, I make about 30k a year. That is more than enough for me to live on.
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Look. My monthly net of a 111K gross is $5750. This is after 10% into 403b and health insurance premiums. Saving for retirement and getting health/dental insurance is more important than the precious loans.
You can't sit here and tell me I (or any other single pharmacist) could put $5000 toward loans each month.
Yes, if you are lucky enough to be married to another pharmacist (professional) then yes, we can talk. Don't sit here and attempt to tell future pre-pharms and students that someone can live in the real world on $750/month and pay for rent, food, gas, electric, water and misc. expenses without live-in roommates and such.
If you want to work PRN or OT then more power to you. I won't. But to each their own. It's not worth it to burn yourself out in your 20's. You have the next 40 years to work.
A great piece of advice still rings true, don't burden yourself with cars and houses, save 10% and enjoy yourself.
You can't sit here and tell me I (or any other single pharmacist) could put $5000 toward loans each month.
Yes, if you are lucky enough to be married to another pharmacist (professional) then yes, we can talk. Don't sit here and attempt to tell future pre-pharms and students that someone can live in the real world on $750/month and pay for rent, food, gas, electric, water and misc. expenses without live-in roommates and such.
If you want to work PRN or OT then more power to you. I won't. But to each their own. It's not worth it to burn yourself out in your 20's. You have the next 40 years to work.
A great piece of advice still rings true, don't burden yourself with cars and houses, save 10% and enjoy yourself.
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Sure, I'll play along. Median pharmacist salary is 111K (according to BLS), and if you pick up 2 shifts of 8 hours apiece via a PRN position assuming a similar rate of pay, you can hit 150K. Taxes are obviously going to be variable depending on where you live, but to make things simple we'll take 1/3 off the top for taxes, leaving 100K. 5K X 12 = 60K/year in student loan payments, leaving 40K to live off of. I wouldn't consider having to live off of 40K after taxes even living cheaply, much less "very cheaply"
(And yes, I realize there are plenty of factors that weren't taken into account. Please don't take this too seriously.)
LoL. I can tell you are still a student. You just assumed a pharmacist can pick up a 16 hours/week, every week, and not be 1. burned out, 2. hurt a patient, 3. can find the hours.
I can tell that many of you have never worked 60 hours/week in your life. And your precious studying and interning doesn't count. Typing it out and counting the money seems so simple. Delaying all of life's gratifications seems so easy when you have not yet earned the money and can just type type type away with your little keyboard.
You are preaching to the choir here about saving, thriftyness, etc, but let me tell you, it's not as easy as you seem to make it out to be.
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Actually, yeah you could put 5000 a month towards loans. The only thing is is that you would have to pay rent for an apt less than 650/mo, have no car payment or credit card bills, and only have the normal cell phone, car insurance, cable, and electricity as expenses. Also, if you drive a car where you can get away with putting gas in it once every 2.5-3 weeks and don't eat much with groceries... it's very very possible. It's all about where you live and how you budget.
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Nope, I just said that it's possible. I also mentioned that it's not for everyone. You might not be able to do it, and I'm not planning on doing it, but there are some who do.
Before I returned to school, I worked 2 consecutive years of no less than 6 days a week, and plenty of those broke the 60 hour mark. Don't make assumptions.
No one said it's easy. Just possible.
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I didn't mean to single you out R2D2 
And yes, it's possible.
And yes, it's possible.
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Since there is a skeptic in the room... I will give away my secrets! ...but only because I love y'all and wish you the best with those pesky student loans.
My starter house is ~$600/month (which is actually more expensive than before due to a new flood policy), I'm on a family cellphone plan and pay my mom $60/month, internet is $35/month with Suddenlink, liability car insurance for 2 cars is $90/month, and electricity/gas is $150/month. I live around the corner from where I work, so I get gas maybe twice a month (12 gallons at $3.25 per gallon = $78/month). No cable, no credit card debt, no car note.
So...
600
60
35
90
150
+ 78
$1013
If take home is ~$7,100/month with a full-time job and a set schedule at a prn job, without the "extra" shifts, then how is that not possible? What the heck are you going to spend the remaining $6087 a month on?
Right. If the cost of living is low, housing is indexed at 62 here, then it's doable.
My starter house is ~$600/month (which is actually more expensive than before due to a new flood policy), I'm on a family cellphone plan and pay my mom $60/month, internet is $35/month with Suddenlink, liability car insurance for 2 cars is $90/month, and electricity/gas is $150/month. I live around the corner from where I work, so I get gas maybe twice a month (12 gallons at $3.25 per gallon = $78/month). No cable, no credit card debt, no car note.
So...
600
60
35
90
150
+ 78
$1013
If take home is ~$7,100/month with a full-time job and a set schedule at a prn job, without the "extra" shifts, then how is that not possible? What the heck are you going to spend the remaining $6087 a month on?
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Since there is a skeptic in the room... I will give away my secrets! ...but only because I love y'all and wish you the best with those pesky student loans.
Right. If the cost of living is low, housing is indexed at 62 here, then it's doable.
My starter house is ~$600/month (which is actually more expensive than before due to a new flood policy), I'm on a family cellphone plan and pay my mom $60/month, internet is $35/month with Suddenlink, liability car insurance for 2 cars is $90/month, and electricity/gas is $150/month. I live around the corner from where I work, so I get gas maybe twice a month (12 gallons at $3.25 per gallon = $78/month). No cable, no credit card debt, no car note.
So...
600
60
35
90
150
+ 78
$1013
If take home is ~$7,100/month with a full-time job and a set schedule at a prn job, without the "extra" shifts, then how is that not possible? What the heck are you going to spend the remaining $6087 a month on?
Impressive. I'd get cable though. You've earned it. Are you saving in a 401k or just killing those loans first? (Not that killing those loans first is wrong). You did forget groceries though. Boom.
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Just company matching at 2%.Impressive. I'd get cable though. You've earned it. Are you saving in a 401k or just killing those loans first? (Not that killing those loans first is wrong). You did forget groceries though. Boom.
I used to have cable, but I would watch murder mystery marathons.
Sure. Groceries are an expense. But honestly, I don't know how much I spend on groceries, so it has to come out of the $6,087 a month, along with other crap like hand soap and toilet paper.
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Chicks and Guns and Fire Trucks and Hookers and Drugs and Booze!
80's references aside, seriously a $600 house payment? Wow. If you're not splitting the total with someone, that is cheap...
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Possible, but unlikely given the current jobs market. I'm seeing a lot of new grads only getting 32 hrs/week if they're lucky enough to score a job at all in retail. So better to prepare for a scenario in which you're only making about $90k.
Still, I took a look at my own budget and I think a $3,000 student loan payment is reasonable. That will take you around 5 years to knock off $150,000. Then you can start living the high life
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For those of you who are saying that it is impossible to save $5000/mo, what you really mean is that you are unwilling to do what it takes to save $5,000/mo. You can see how PharmDstudent does it and I do it quite similarly.
I am fortunate enough to have a job that pays approx 59/hr and I have the opportunity to work as much as I can handle. That does not mean I work 60 hrs per week, I average closer to 50. This year I will gross 160,000 and before I see any of that money, 30% goes into my 401k + company stock program, 25% goes into taxes and another 0.5% goes into insurance. That leaves me with 73,000, if 60,000 is used for savings (5,000*12) I have 13,000 left to pay my 700/mo mortgage and the rest of my bills. I pay approx 250/mo for utils as I have no cable and only use a prepaid cellphone, 150 on food, 120 on car insurance + gas and maybe 50 on entertainment. I have no car payment, credit cards and I am very efficient at spending so thus living on 13,000/yr is not much of a problem.
Edited to add: some of you may know that I own real estate, I did not put those numbers into my analysis due to the fact that I reinvest 100% of the money and thus is not a factor in the above calculation.
I am not saying this is how everyone can or should live, but it is also not impossible like many in society would like us to believe. There is always a choice and I believe every decision should be made knowing as much information as possible.
This is great advice if you want to follow the herd and be a wage slave until you are 65. If you are ok with working for 40 years, then indeed that advice will certainly get you there, but not everyone wants to work for so long. Remember, during that time you truly are owned by your employer, you don't really have the financial security to leave your job and your masters know it. You will be burdened with evermore programs and initiatives to increase company profits and steal your soul, and you will be powerless to deny them.
If we really want a better profession, we need to show the companies that we are not wage slaves and we have the freedom to find other employment if we feel their actions are putting our patients in danger. No amount of protesting or lobbying will make our work better until we give ourselves back the power that we gave to the corporations.
I am fortunate enough to have a job that pays approx 59/hr and I have the opportunity to work as much as I can handle. That does not mean I work 60 hrs per week, I average closer to 50. This year I will gross 160,000 and before I see any of that money, 30% goes into my 401k + company stock program, 25% goes into taxes and another 0.5% goes into insurance. That leaves me with 73,000, if 60,000 is used for savings (5,000*12) I have 13,000 left to pay my 700/mo mortgage and the rest of my bills. I pay approx 250/mo for utils as I have no cable and only use a prepaid cellphone, 150 on food, 120 on car insurance + gas and maybe 50 on entertainment. I have no car payment, credit cards and I am very efficient at spending so thus living on 13,000/yr is not much of a problem.
Edited to add: some of you may know that I own real estate, I did not put those numbers into my analysis due to the fact that I reinvest 100% of the money and thus is not a factor in the above calculation.
I am not saying this is how everyone can or should live, but it is also not impossible like many in society would like us to believe. There is always a choice and I believe every decision should be made knowing as much information as possible.
This is great advice if you want to follow the herd and be a wage slave until you are 65. If you are ok with working for 40 years, then indeed that advice will certainly get you there, but not everyone wants to work for so long. Remember, during that time you truly are owned by your employer, you don't really have the financial security to leave your job and your masters know it. You will be burdened with evermore programs and initiatives to increase company profits and steal your soul, and you will be powerless to deny them.
If we really want a better profession, we need to show the companies that we are not wage slaves and we have the freedom to find other employment if we feel their actions are putting our patients in danger. No amount of protesting or lobbying will make our work better until we give ourselves back the power that we gave to the corporations.
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The maximum pretax deferral for 401k(s) is $16,500 for 2011. How can you save 30% of $160,000? I'm sure you are just dumbing it down for the rest of us but please explain. I assume you're doing Roth IRA ($5000) + 401k ($16500) + taxable investing.
I completely agree with you that it's not that it's "not impossible" it's that no one wants to make that sacrifice.
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401k plus company stock, cvs lets you put up to 15% of your salary into company stock at a significant discount. I also do a non-deductible ira into Roth of 5k as you mentioned.
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I was doing some thinking and pondered on how ironic it is that what some people call how I live my life a sacrifice when I see not doing things this way to be a much greater sacrifice. Viewing the situation thusly, I will have to work very hard for the first 10 years of my career, but after that time is up I can comfortably retire at a lifestyle much higher than what I am used to. On the other hand, the typical worker will toil for around 40 years at which point they can retire to a lifestyle at, or possibly below, that which they are accustomed.
Considering living conditions during working years, my lifestyle will have stress because of all the hard work and detachment from modern consumerism, but I will be comforted by the fact that during desperate times, I can revert to the lifestyle of masses (cc debt, no savings ect). On the contrary, when the masses hit desperate times they cannot revert to my lifestyle to make it through (sure they can cut expenses, but significant incurred debt will preclude them from building cash buffers and assets).
To be clear, I do not propose either lifestyle to be objectively correct, however, subjectively I feel that the massive gain in overall leisure time and the freedom of flexibility make my approach much less of a sacrifice. Something to also consider is that my lifestyle not only affords me a better future, but also that of future generations who will not have to sacrifice as much as I.
Speaking in the language of the Occupy Wallstreet crowd, "We are the 1%, come join us."
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I expect to be able pay about $4000 a month when my student loan payments come due in December, working a pretty good retail job + some consulting for a jail and some nursing homes on the side. I have a stay at home mom wife and 2 kids. We're pretty frugal. We have a bigger place and we bought a $9000 car, but other than that we live the same way we did before and during farm school. I don't spend anywhere near as much money on myself now that I earn six figures as I did when I was single, living with my parents, and washing dishes for $6/hour. A two-earner family should be able to manage $4000 easily, assuming sane spending habits and not living in a high-cost-of-living city. If my wife still had a job as a nurse instead of a baby, we'd probably pay $5000.
My minimum payment on the 10 year plan would be about $1750/month, and a lot of people are as bad off or worse than I am. My school wasn't the most expensive by any means, and I only owe a few thousand for undergrad.
My minimum payment on the 10 year plan would be about $1750/month, and a lot of people are as bad off or worse than I am. My school wasn't the most expensive by any means, and I only owe a few thousand for undergrad.
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I'm gonna state the obvious here...but my ass didn't go to pharmacy schools so I could live cheaply. There, I said it.
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Man I am so thankful for the GI Bill.
As an aside, this past summer I managed to save up a little over $8,000 in 3 months. Granted, it involved working 7 days a week, 60-70 hours per week, but that was also on a salary about 1/4 of a pharmacist's. I'm honestly baffled by the pharmacists I work with who make minimum payments on their loans and live paycheck-to-paycheck, but that's their business I guess.
As an aside, this past summer I managed to save up a little over $8,000 in 3 months. Granted, it involved working 7 days a week, 60-70 hours per week, but that was also on a salary about 1/4 of a pharmacist's. I'm honestly baffled by the pharmacists I work with who make minimum payments on their loans and live paycheck-to-paycheck, but that's their business I guess.
I agree. I'm not going to go to pharmacy school to then move into a trailerpark and ride around in a 15 year old honda accord with no AC. I want the condo and a BMW. Also, someone to clean my place 1 day a week, how much do they cost?
owlegrad
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These are always some fun conversations. Frankly, I have no idea how someone who grosses 6 figures is "supposed" to live. Do you burn money for warmth? No one in my family even comes close, individually or household incomes. I love when people say after 401k and other deductions it is only blah amount of money. As though those wouldn't apply to anyone else. How about being thankful you can contribute such an obscene amount of money in the first place?
As usual, I agree with you. I plan to enjoy myself. I happen to live frugally and probably won't change that much after graduating, but that is my choice. If I want something I am going to get it. The peace of mind from having a strong income source is all I need, it is much more than what most people have.
I am all over the place, I am just going to stop talking.
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It's all about gettin that cheddah and makin' that s--- raaaaaain.
I'm going to have to agree with Confetti 110%.
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It's all about gettin that cheddah and makin' that s--- raaaaaain.
I'm going to have to agree with Confetti 110%.
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My parents now have >$5 million, but looking at them, you would think they are just another middle class family (maybe even lower middle class). Lives in a pretty old 2000 sq ft house. Drives a 97 Prizm and a 2004 Sub outback. They clip coupons and don't go on vacations, it's as if they still feel like grad students living in the ghetto. But they are happy.
The question is: Why all the sudden need to go from living like students to living like rock stars? People don't usually don't miss things that they never had. The reverse is true, if you had something it's hard to live without. Why not let yourself slowly grow into a 6 figure salary over several years? Enjoy a few newer/better things at a time, you will appreciate them more and the extra money saved can go towards your loans during the mean time.
You're parents should pay more taxes.
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I totally understand. I don't plan on making 5K loan payments, but I could pay half that and still live like a king compared to what I'm used to
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Hahaha.
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Y'all just wait until that student loan payment hits and takes out one of your paychecks.These are always some fun conversations. Frankly, I have no idea how someone who grosses 6 figures is "supposed" to live. Do you burn money for warmth? No one in my family even comes close, individually or household incomes. I love when people say after 401k and other deductions it is only blah amount of money. As though those wouldn't apply to anyone else. How about being thankful you can contribute such an obscene amount of money in the first place?
As usual, I agree with you. I plan to enjoy myself. I happen to live frugally and probably won't change that much after graduating, but that is my choice. If I want something I am going to get it. The peace of mind from having a strong income source is all I need, it is much more than what most people have.
I am all over the place, I am just going to stop talking.
It feels like ****. Nothing like busting it and getting paid once a month...This is exactly how I want to be if I continue on in this profession... frugal living and money in the bank.
They're feening.
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My Accord with no AC is 28 years old. All of my techs drive *much* better cars than I do. But I'm not saying everyone should live like that.
I would take the same attitude as you if I were 26 and single like most new grads, cuz you only live once and you're only young once, but I'm ten years older and married with two kids. I figure I be able should earn enough money to put the kids through school, retire, and have a funeral, in that order. Most of you can live it up a little while paying on the 10 year plan and still be ahead of us non-trads, no matter how frugal we are. There's really no reason to suffer too much now so you'll be rich when you're 55.
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I lol'd.
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Can't take it with you.
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Rich at 55 is not the goal; getting out of debt at around 30 is the goal. Rich would just be a consequence of saving and not blowing a bunch of money for the sake of it.
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