Study drugs, seriously how common are they?

[787593]

I recently spoke to an upperclassman who claims that "half his class" is taking either adderall or ritalin. He also claims to know people who got an ADHD diagnosis just for USMLE studying and testing accommodations (extra time?!?).

Is this BS? I've never taken them or known anyone personally who took them.

For people w/o ADHD who take them, isn't it basically like an athlete taking anabolic steroids? idk idk

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[Gurby]

This is one of my favorite dead horses to beat. Fingers crossed for a nice long argument before the mods lock the thread.

 

[WedgeDawg]

I can also just lock it now but I'm willing to give it a chance (does this make me naive?)

Please report anything that gets out of hand and best of luck...

 

[Gurby]

I can also just lock it now but I'm willing to give it a chance (does this make me naive?)

Please report anything that gets out of hand and best of luck...

I feel there is always some interesting ethical debate that comes with this topic and it's usually thought-provoking for me at least. So far nobody is taking the bait though, womp.

 

[Dagrimsta1]

A Lot of people take em. It's very simple...

Some are open and tell you straight up that they're on it. Others keep it on the DL.

At the end of the day, don't let it bother you because you will all be studying your ass off regardless of pills.
Adderall doesn't magically pump information into your head, you still need to put in the work.

I guess it's sorta comparable to test in the sense that you still need to pump iron to get big, it doesn't work unless you do.

 

[BluegrassBuckeye]

How do people get away with doing this? I'm not taking an ethical right or wrong stance, just logically it seems way too risky. I've been drug tested before 3 of my 7 rotations I've been on without any more than a day's notice. Do people at other schools not get drug screened as routinely as I have or do they just figure out a way around it?

 

[afib123]

I think if you have an official diagnosis of adhd, it's not a big deal. But I've heard (heard needs to be underlined because I only know one person personally) that lot of people in my class either get it without prescription or got it in medical school to get higher grades. How much of it is rumors, I am not sure.
But, I personally believe anyone without an official diagnosis should not be using it and is equivalent to cheating if they do.

 

[afib123]

How do people get away with doing this? I'm not taking an ethical right or wrong stance, just logically it seems way too risky. I've been drug tested before 3 of my 7 rotations I've been on without any more than a day's notice. Do people at other schools not get drug screened as routinely as I have or do they just figure out a way around it?

Drug screened just before clinical rotations. Possibly again before away rotations, not sure.

 

[787593]

I suppo

A Lot of people take em. It's very simple...

Some are open and tell you straight up that they're on it. Others keep it on the DL.

At the end of the day, don't let it bother you because you will all be studying your ass off regardless of pills.
Adderall doesn't magically pump information into your head, you still need to put in the work.

I guess it's sorta comparable to test in the sense that you still need to pump iron to get big, it doesn't work unless you do.

That's a good mindset to have, thanks!

 

[NicMouse64]

I know it's not half. Maybe 25% is closer. I choose copious amounts of caffeine through black coffee and green tea instead.....then every break I go cold turkey....rinse and repeat

 

[operaman]

Lots of people take them. Very very few get usmle accommodations. Not only is it very hard to get but your transcript would also report it which many people would rather avoid.

The edge they give is probably overstated but there are probably a select few who do get some outsized benefit from it. For most it isn’t much more than decent sleep and a little caffeine could also provide.

I think the anabolic steroids comparison is a good one. For elite athletes they can definitely provide an edge, but they won’t turn a regular person into a Olympian. It doesn’t negate the hard work and discipline needed to compete. Adderall won’t make you smarter but it may help you stay awake longer to study. If you’re already maximally disciplined then maybe it could buy you some additional time and give you an edge, but most people are poorly disciplined anyhow.

 

[21Rush12]

I must be under a rock because I don’t know anyone who uses these things.

 

[Ho0v-man]

Most of my circulatory system is coffee at the point so I ain’t gonna judge...

 

[Redpancreas]

Probably 25%. I do have a slight problem with the stigma behind them, but I also have reservations regarding side effects and think there can be bad reactions. A good friend I still talk to with kind of apparent autism took Adderall and it wasn't because he was applying to be a Dermatologist or Orthopedic Surgeon. He just wanted to pass and he was interested in Pathology and was legitimately failing courses in second year so he went to the school counselor and got referred to a psychiatrist. He started using the medicine and it actually seemed to help him a lot, but it came with a cost. About 2 months in lab, there was a minor incident but he talked back to a lab instructor using arguably racist logic and didn't even seem to care. He was sent to the dean and like from there I do not know much but I was told he could have apologized and dropped the whole thing, but he chose not to and things escalated and he was basically kicked out of medical school for that. I could be reaching, but I think the Adderall gave him that unchecked boldness and he was way more talkative while on it and would like say complete bull**** and not even bat an eye.

 

[NicMouse64]

Probably 25%. I do have a slight problem with the stigma behind them, but I also have reservations regarding side effects and think there can be bad reactions. A good friend I still talk to with kind of apparent autism took Adderall and it wasn't because he was applying to be a Dermatologist or Orthopedic Surgeon. He just wanted to pass and he was interested in Pathology and was legitimately failing courses in second year so he went to the school counselor and got referred to a psychiatrist. He started using the medicine and it actually seemed to help him a lot, but it came with a cost. About 2 months in lab, there was a minor incident but he talked back to a lab instructor using arguably racist logic and didn't even seem to care. He was sent to the dean and like from there I do not know much but I was told he could have apologized and dropped the whole thing, but he chose not to and things escalated and he was basically kicked out of medical school for that. I could be reaching, but I think the Adderall gave him that unchecked boldness and he was way more talkative while on it and would like say complete bull**** and not even bat an eye.

Lol that was a cool story but I like how this thread devolved into using adderall may bring out your closet racism and verbal impulsiveness lol.

 

[libertyyne]

Life is not fair. People get all sort of genetic benefits, or benefits through ses where their parents are neurosurgicaldermaorthoentolgists and call in a favor during match time. I don't take the stuff but it doesn't really impact me one bit. I am competing against myself in medical school.

 

[bananafish94]

I actually don't know think I know of anyone who uses them. I did know some people who did in college. That being said, my social circle is largely not made up of the people who get keyed up about medical school to the extent that they would do that, so maybe my sample size isn't the best. Ethics aside, my view on it is that it is a poor decision from a risk-benefit analysis. The penalty is life-ruining and the benefit is marginal at best. So I would steer clear.

 

[Quantal Reasoning]

Very common, but not like professional athletics where PEDs are a requirement.

 

[Giovanotto]

How do people get away with doing this? I'm not taking an ethical right or wrong stance, just logically it seems way too risky. I've been drug tested before 3 of my 7 rotations I've been on without any more than a day's notice. Do people at other schools not get drug screened as routinely as I have or do they just figure out a way around it?

You gotta be kidding me...

 

[ciestar]

How do people get away with doing this? I'm not taking an ethical right or wrong stance, just logically it seems way too risky. I've been drug tested before 3 of my 7 rotations I've been on without any more than a day's notice. Do people at other schools not get drug screened as routinely as I have or do they just figure out a way around it?

I havent been drug tested a single time.

 

[BluegrassBuckeye]

You gotta be kidding me...

Not kidding. And I didn't realize that was unusual until now haha.

 

[Raryn]

I havent been drug tested a single time.

I got drug tested for my M3 January FM rotation at an outside clinic. They let me know with 1 day notice, right as I came back from winter break. No big deal for me - but I know a bunch of classmates that would have run into trouble with it given **** they got up to when they went home for break.

 

[NicMouse64]

I got drug tested for my M3 January FM rotation at an outside clinic. They let me know with 1 day notice, right as I came back from winter break. No big deal for me - but I know a bunch of classmates that would have run into trouble with it given **** they got up to when they went home for break.

Good. The profession needs to self-police. If people are abusing substances and show up to clinic, they should be called out and required to undergo some sort of remediation or substance abuse treatment if not kicked out.

 

[evilbooyaa]

This is one of my favorite dead horses to beat. Fingers crossed for a nice long argument before the mods lock the thread.

I can also just lock it now but I'm willing to give it a chance (does this make me naive?)

Please report anything that gets out of hand and best of luck...

On topic: Idk what percentage of my class used stuff

 

[787593]

Thanks everyone, I appreciate the insight/examples.

 

[Giovanotto]

Good. The profession needs to self-police. If people are abusing substances and show up to clinic, they should be called out and required to undergo some sort of remediation or substance abuse treatment if not kicked out.

It's a post like this that makes me wish SDN had a dislike button.

 

[GreysPhysiology]

It's common enough that people with (legitimate) ADHD have to go through hell sometimes to get the same medicine.

My psychiatrist refuses to prescribe stimulants because of the potential for abuse. And it's the same with a lot of psychs in my area. I've been told point-blank that because I received my diagnosis at age 20 and I'm a college student, there's extra suspicion about me asking for stimulants.


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[allantois]

Eh, Idk lets just say that people who took ADHD meds in undergrad weren't exactly your best students

 

[Slueman33]

I am a pre-dental student that never thought I would be cut out for a doctorate's degree because of my ADHD. Seriously, since I was a kid I would get calls home from elementary/middle school/even a few high school teachers that would claim that I seem like a bright kid, yet my head was elsewhere.

I started taking adderall regularly in freshman year of college because I didn't want to live out my fate of not achieving academic success. It started out well but went downhill fast. You can abuse the drug easily whether you have ADHD or not. Often times I have experienced unmotivated students take it and become more distracted than if they were not on it. Yes, euphoria and dopamine are key components to Adderall on the come up, but someone who is taking it seriously as prescribed, will understand that the euphoria QUICKLY goes away once you actually start your 5-6 hour study blocks.

Either way, I take a normal healthy dose daily, keep up with healthy eating/sleeping/water intake/ and exercise to compensate for the poor side effects Adderall can cause after initial onset and through the whole come down process.

I would not recommend someone who has never truly experienced ADHD to visit their local psychiatrist who will give it out like candy. You will have to get used the side effects, come down depression, extremely mild psychosis at some point, and a host of other undesirable effects.

"What comes up, must come down"

TL;DR My personal experiences have shown that this is not a magic pill that will get you a doctorate's degree.

 

[Treebeard]

AFAIK, studies have found that use of these drugs doesn't end up boosting grades.

 

[DOFOSHO]

I take a normal healthy dose daily, keep up with healthy eating/sleeping/water intake/ and exercise to compensate for the poor side effects Adderall can cause after initial onset and through the whole come down process.

what is a normal healthy dose of adderall precisely? lol

 

[NicMouse64]

It's a post like this that makes me wish SDN had a dislike button.

Are you saying that people shouldn't be drug tested before a rotation?

 

[Slueman33]

what is a normal healthy dose of adderall precisely? lol

Lol 30mg XR once daily, is a standard dose prescribed to most ADHD patients. Crackheads get the 30mg XR twice a day.

However since I’ve started working at a pharmacy, I’ve realized MANY people have a low dose 10mg IR prescription on file. I suspect these are people looking for an edge but it probably has little effect.


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[TheRealCookieMonster]

Good. The profession needs to self-police. If people are abusing substances and show up to clinic, they should be called out and required to undergo some sort of remediation or substance abuse treatment if not kicked out.

 

[NicMouse64]

I worked in drug abuse before medical school. I'm not putting down people who do drugs. They still affect your judgement and are not good for your body or mind....tell me again where what I'm saying is wrong?

 

[Gurby]

I worked in drug abuse before medical school. I'm not putting down people who do drugs. They still affect your judgement and are not good for your body or mind....tell me again where what I'm saying is wrong?

Are we talking about showing up to work intoxicated, or are we talking about policing how people spend their weekend off?

 

[TheRealCookieMonster]

I worked in drug abuse before medical school. I'm not putting down people who do drugs. They still affect your judgement and are not good for your body or mind....tell me again where what I'm saying is wrong?

Before we usher in the moderators, I'm going to have to read your response to Gurbs.

 

[NicMouse64]

Are we talking about showing up to work intoxicated, or are we talking about policing how people spend their weekend off?

The fact of the matter is there aren't many drugs that don't have deleterious effects on your brain long term--they affect decision making, impulsivity, etc. I'm not sure how I feel about weekends off--can you be a smoker on the weekend and function fine? Maybe. We really don't know. Being involved in a profession though where we are making decisions based on science, how about we police more strict rather than more loose until the evidence is in?

 

[Gurby]

I'm not sure how I feel about weekends off--can you be a smoker on the weekend and function fine? Maybe. We really don't know.

Didn't seem to slow down Michael Phelps too much.

Should we start testing for ethanol use? It's pretty bad for you I hear.

 

[TheRealCookieMonster]

The fact of the matter is there aren't many drugs that don't have deleterious effects on your brain long term--they affect decision making, impulsivity, etc. I'm not sure how I feel about weekends off--can you be a smoker on the weekend and function fine? Maybe. We really don't know. Being involved in a profession though where we are making decisions based on science, how about we police more strict rather than more loose until the evidence is in?

I'm going to have to disagree with you here. You perspective on when to implement rules is too liberal. Excess sugar has a bad effect on brain chemistry, so does staying up too late (we even have data for these). In theory you're very correct. Ideally, we could monitor the blood sugar and sleep cycle of our cardiac surgeon he would just consider our invasion of his personal life part of the job. But this is not practical. Both in principle and in practice it's just not real. Your employer should only have control over you AT work. If you can perform duties as assigned and on par with standards the rest is up to personal preference. This is not ideal but neither is policing doctors/students after they leave the clinic.

 

[NicMouse64]

Didn't seem to slow down Michael Phelps too much.

Should we start testing for ethanol use? It's pretty bad for you I hear.

Michael phelps as a swimmer isn't the best to compare to a physician....I get that you guys are pretty pro-weed. I just think that it should be reasonable to ask physicians to not smoke weed. It's certainly not good for you or your brain. I get nothing is perfect, but making sure your medical student isn't addicted to some f***ed up drugs, it's better to find out when they are a student than when they are an attending. What drugs are okay then? Where do we draw the line? I am legitimately curious. Obviously adderall should be allowed for those with diagnosed ADHD....what illegal drugs should we not test for? what should we test for?

 

[libertyyne]

Michael phelps as a swimmer isn't the best to compare to a physician....I get that you guys are pretty pro-weed. I just think that it should be reasonable to ask physicians to not smoke weed. It's certainly not good for you or your brain. I get nothing is perfect, but making sure your medical student isn't addicted to some f***ed up drugs, it's better to find out when they are a student than when they are an attending. What drugs are okay then? Where do we draw the line? I am legitimately curious. Obviously adderall should be allowed for those with diagnosed ADHD....what illegal drugs should we not test for? what should we test for?

seems like pot is legal even for recreational uses in many states now, not sure if that would still count as strictly illegal.

 

[NicMouse64]

seems like pot is legal in even for recreational uses in many states now, not sure if that would still count as strictly illegal.

Sure, I am not demonizing pot. I am just saying that it's not something that we shouldn't be discouraging in the profession. Just like smoking, excess alcohol use, etc. We need to be good role models for the public, they demonize doctors enough as is. Don't need to add fodder to the fire.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

I dont have a problem with people with ADHD taking stimulants. I have a problem with the extra time allowed for testing. During a cardiac arrest are they going to tell the patient not to die because the Dr aleays gets extra time on exams? If you take stimulants, that is the equalizer. No extra time., it's not fair to the other students

 

[NicMouse64]

I dont have a problem with people with ADHD taking stimulants. I have a problem with the extra time allowed for testing. During a cardiac arrest are they going to tell the patient not to die because the Dr aleays gets extra time on exams? If you take stimulants, that is the equalizer. No extra time., it's not fair to the other students

If you get extra time you should be required to go into PM+R or Psych............




/s.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

If you require extra time, maybe medicine is not for you. Not / s

 

[NicMouse64]

If you require extra time, maybe medicine is not for you. Not / s

I'd agree with you but then someone might pull out the "where's the dislike button on SDN" comment out.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

I'd agree with you but then someone might pull out the "where's the dislike button on SDN" comment out.

No worries. I'm more interested in patient safety than tweaking someone's feeling. I'm all about competence rather than feelings

 

[TheRealCookieMonster]

We need to be good role models for the public

In lieu of another grandma meme...

 

[NicMouse64]

No worries. I'm more interested in patient safety than tweaking someone's feeling. I'm all about competence rather than feelings

Would you be ok with physicians doing cocaine if it made patients safer? Just trying to figure out how these things are decided on....I don't know what the right answer is.