Study drugs, seriously how common are they?

[Raryn]

seems like pot is legal in even for recreational uses in many states now, not sure if that would still count as strictly illegal.

Lets ask the various medical boards.

It's still a federal crime. I personally don't think it's something that should lose someone their license or job, but I'm certainly not risking it.

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[Angus Avagadro]

Would you be ok with physicians doing cocaine if it made patients safer? Just trying to figure out how these things are decided on....I don't know what the right answer is.

I am unaware of studies suggesting cocaine does what you suggest so I will not choose to respond to a hypothetical. However, adderall and similar stimulants have been reported to improve attention and concentration. If they indeed do this, why do these students require extra time? My question. Patients deserve competent care, not someone requiring extra time to treat them. Just like football is not for everyone, medicine us not for everyone.

 

[libertyyne]

Lets ask the various medical boards.

It's still a federal crime. I personally don't think it's something that should lose someone their license or job, but I'm certainly not risking it.

I recognize that it is a federal crime, but even if it wasnt its not like employers would stop screening for it. I wonder what medical boards had to say about etoh during prohibition.
That being said, i dont care for pot, but employers and boards have too much power IMO.

 

[Blanky]

I recently spoke to an upperclassman who claims that "half his class" is taking either adderall or ritalin. He also claims to know people who got an ADHD diagnosis just for USMLE studying and testing accommodations (extra time?!?).

Is this BS? I've never taken them or known anyone personally who took them.

For people w/o ADHD who take them, isn't it basically like an athlete taking anabolic steroids? idk idk

Nice MCAT! But why no 315 on bench? Three plates or quit and grab a dozen krispy kremes...

 

[LebronManning]

How do we feel about Modafinil/Adrafinil (provigil)?

 

[operaman]

I recognize that it is a federal crime, but even if it wasnt its not like employers would stop screening for it. I wonder what medical boards had to say about etoh during prohibition.
That being said, i dont care for pot, but employers and boards have too much power IMO.

Yeah it will be interesting to see how this plays out. There are definitely employers that test for nicotine as a condition of employment (Cleveland clinic springs to mind) so it isn’t unthinkable that THC would also find its way on their list.

I’ll have to look and see if this has faced any legal challenges. To my knowledge it’s been challenged but the courts have consistently allowed employers a great deal of latitude on this point.

Nicotine is hard to challenge. I could see an interesting challenge to legal pot screenings by employers if they deny employment to someone who uses MJ for a medical reason. One could see an ADA claim there. Otherwise so long as substance screens are applied equally across federally protected classes it’s going to be tough to beat.

 

[Raryn]

Yeah it will be interesting to see how this plays out. There are definitely employers that test for nicotine as a condition of employment (Cleveland clinic springs to mind) so it isn’t unthinkable that THC would also find its way on their list.

I’ll have to look and see if this has faced any legal challenges. To my knowledge it’s been challenged but the courts have consistently allowed employers a great deal of latitude on this point.

Nicotine is hard to challenge. I could see an interesting challenge to legal pot screenings by employers if they deny employment to someone who uses MJ for a medical reason. One could see an ADA claim there. Otherwise so long as substance screens are applied equally across federally protected classes it’s going to be tough to beat.

There's actually a good number of states that make discriminating against tobacco smokers illegal. Cleveland Clinic refuses to hire smokers because Ohio isn't one of them - but that wouldn't fly in the majority of the country (29 states and DC).

 

[NicMouse64]

There's actually a good number of states that make discriminating against tobacco smokers illegal. Cleveland Clinic refuses to hire smokers because Ohio isn't one of them - but that wouldn't fly in the majority of the country (29 states and DC).

Sometimes I hear certain things and I just imagine this country's aristocratic farming past.....this is one of them....

 

[Raryn]

Sometimes I hear certain things and I just imagine this country's aristocratic farming past.....this is one of them....

I believe the reasoning is that these states feel what *legal* thing you do while outside of work should be irrelevant.

Marijuana is still not legal anywhere in the US (on a federal level). I would anticipate when it becomes legal, similar nondiscrimination laws might be passed.

The biggest problem is that there's no good test for marijuana intoxication, so some employers (say, those who employ people driving heavy machinery) may still want to ban it wholesale.

 

[NicMouse64]

I believe the reasoning is that these states feel what *legal* thing you do while outside of work should be irrelevant.

Marijuana is still not legal anywhere in the US (on a federal level). I would anticipate when it becomes legal, similar nondiscrimination laws might be passed.

The biggest problem is that there's no good test for marijuana intoxication, so some employers (say, those who employ people driving heavy machinery) may still want to ban it wholesale.

Yeah I agree with the statement, but I was more pointing out the fact that tobacco is *legal*. Anti-discrimination laws against that but not other things. I say legalize and tax it all.

 

[WalSlave]

Yeah I agree with the statement, but I was more pointing out the fact that tobacco is *legal*. Anti-discrimination laws against that but not other things. I say legalize and tax it all.

The hospital I just signed a contract with has a very strict no tobacco policy and it is included within the pre-employment drug test. Still not sure how I feel about it.

 

[Giovanotto]

The hospital I just signed a contract with has a very strict no tobacco policy and it is included within the pre-employment drug test. Still not sure how I feel about it.

Pretty much the same as a very strict no morbid obesity policy. It blows my mind this is legal.

 

[Espressso]

How do we feel about Modafinil/Adrafinil (provigil)?

I've heard amazing things.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Pretty much the same as a very strict no morbid obesity policy. It blows my mind this is legal.

Umm, what?

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Major hospital system and largest employer in our area has no tobacco policy, at work and at home. Will offer smoking cessation. Employees are treated as any other that violate company HR policies.

 

[787593]

Nice MCAT! But why no 315 on bench? Three plates or quit and grab a dozen krispy kremes...

Bruh I'm trying...

 

[787593]

Pretty much the same as a very strict no morbid obesity policy. It blows my mind this is legal.

How morbid we talking?

 

[shemer77]

Major hospital system and largest employer in our area has no tobacco policy, at work and at home. Will offer smoking cessation. Employees are treated as any other that violate company HR policies.

Is that even legal? I understand at work but at home?

 

[Espressso]

Is that even legal? I understand at work but at home?

I think so, it's just a work policy. Is it that different than having a policy that students at your medical school can't do x drug on campus or off campus.

 

[shemer77]

I think so, it's just a work policy. Is it that different than having a policy that students at your medical school can't do x drug on campus or off campus.

If X drug is illegal then yes, but I dont think medical schools can tell you you can't smoke tobacco at home?

 

[Raryn]

Is that even legal? I understand at work but at home?

Depends on the state. 21 states allow discrimination against smokers. Some workplaces even go as far as testing for nicotine metabolites.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Depends on the state. 21 states allow discrimination against smokers. Some workplaces even go as far as testing for nicotine metabolites.

And even in states with legal protections, you often can charge more for health insurance or similar.

 

[Espressso]

And even in states with legal protections, you often can charge more for health insurance or similar.

Unpopular opinion: I'm all for increased health insurance premiums for tobacco use.

 

[Raryn]

And even in states with legal protections, you often can charge more for health insurance or similar.

Yeah, that's actually the only health-related carveout in the ACA.

Your premiums are dependant only on your age, zip code, and smoking status. No other preexisting conditions or issues can be taken into account, not even gender.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Unpopular opinion: I'm all for increased health insurance premiums for tobacco use.

Pretty sure that's not an unpopular opinion

 

[787593]

Unpopular opinion: I'm all for increased health insurance premiums for tobacco use.

Agreed. Actions have consequences.

 

[TheIllusionist]

A Lot of people take em. It's very simple...

Some are open and tell you straight up that they're on it. Others keep it on the DL.

At the end of the day, don't let it bother you because you will all be studying your ass off regardless of pills.
Adderall doesn't magically pump information into your head, you still need to put in the work.

I guess it's sorta comparable to test in the sense that you still need to pump iron to get big, it doesn't work unless you do.

wrong. roidz is a second round of puberty. max benefit with pumping iron but men put on 10 to 15lbs lean body mass without doing anything. the roids alone group put on more muscle in a month than the exercise alone group but less than the exercise+roids group.

these brain drugs do bot even work 10% as well as anabolics

 

[787593]

wrong. roidz is a second round of puberty. max benefit with pumping iron but men put on 10 to 15lbs lean body mass without doing anything. the roids alone group put on more muscle in a month than the exercise alone group but less than the exercise+roids group.

these brain drugs do bot even work 10% as well as anabolics

So what I really need to do is hop on the juice...

 

[Raryn]

So what I really need to do is hop on the juice...

Only if you want your testicles to shrink.

 

[NicMouse64]

Only if you want your testicles to shrink.

who do you think you are an endocrinologist? It can also cause infertility....might be a positive or negative depending on who you are hahaha.

 

[Giovanotto]

Agreed. Actions have consequences.

Agreed. Higher premiums for obese people, uncontrolled diabetes, uncontrolled hyperlipidemia, uncontrolled HTN, alcoholism, opiate addiction, being a dick head, ad infinitum.

 

[Deecee2DO]

Lots of people take them. Very very few get usmle accommodations. Not only is it very hard to get but your transcript would also report it which many people would rather avoid.

The edge they give is probably overstated but there are probably a select few who do get some outsized benefit from it. For most it isn’t much more than decent sleep and a little caffeine could also provide.

I think the anabolic steroids comparison is a good one. For elite athletes they can definitely provide an edge, but they won’t turn a regular person into a Olympian. It doesn’t negate the hard work and discipline needed to compete. Adderall won’t make you smarter but it may help you stay awake longer to study. If you’re already maximally disciplined then maybe it could buy you some additional time and give you an edge, but most people are poorly disciplined anyhow.

I dont think accommodations are disclosed on your transcript. Also why would someone want to avoid that if they need the accommodations. If someone has a learning difference/disability you would get that held against you? Im confused

 

[libertyyne]

I dont think accommodations are disclosed on your transcript. Also why would someone want to avoid that if they need the accommodations. If someone has a learning difference/disability you would get that held against you? Im confused

Accommodations are disclosed on mcat results. Unsure of usmle results tho.

 

[operaman]

I dont think accommodations are disclosed on your transcript. Also why would someone want to avoid that if they need the accommodations. If someone has a learning difference/disability you would get that held against you? Im confused

I don’t think people with true disabilities would mind, but they have to make it tough or every gunner out there would be faking a disability to get an extra 30 minutes per section on step 1.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

I never liked the additional time accomodation. Stimulants are the equalizer for ADHD. I also recognize there are other learning issues that extra time might benefit. Is this really benefitting the student to prepare for an RVU/ Productivity based job? If you are unable to see enough patients to pay for your benefit package, you will be Non Renewed by your employer. If this happens, your only recourse will be to sell your home and move due to your contracts restrictive covenant. If this cycle repeats a couple of times, you will essentially unemployable down the road. As I ve said many times medicine is like football, not for everybody

 

[NicMouse64]

I never liked the additional time accomodation. Stimulants are the equalizer for ADHD. I also recognize there are other learning issues that extra time might benefit. Is this really benefitting the student to prepare for an RVU/ Productivity based job? If you are unable to see enough patients to pay for your benefit package, you will be Non Renewed by your employer. If this happens, your only recourse will be to sell your home and move due to your contracts restrictive covenant. If this cycle repeats a couple of times, you will essentially unemployable down the road. As I ve said many times medicine is like football, not for everybody

Medical Schools should give students a debt free escape plan. Until that happens those who can't handle it will stay in whether it's good for them and their patients or not.

 

[libertyyne]

Medical Schools should give students a debt free escape plan. Until that happens those who can't handle it will stay in whether it's good for them and their patients or not.

That is an interesting idea, but is bound to have some negative side effects as well. If the school has to eat the cost of students that drop out, they are more likely to push people through to graduation to avoid that cost. possibly leading to some people who should not have been allowed to graduate.

 

[PathoTurnUp1865]

Lolol.

 

[PathoTurnUp1865]

.

 

[NicMouse64]

That is an interesting idea, but is bound to have some negative side effects as well. If the school has to eat the cost of students that drop out, they are more likely to push people through to graduation to avoid that cost. possibly leading to some people who should not have been allowed to graduate.

Graduation rates are already super high because of pressure from the LCME, it would likely drive up costs for the individual student to subsidize the other students. However if NYU can give all of it's students free tuition maybe medical schools should dip into those endowment to protect our profession and future patients from students who shouldn't be going into the field due to the rigors/stresses. I can already spot students in my class who are being bogged down by the constant stress. It's only going to get worse for many of them.

On another note, you can't really know what medicine is like until going through medical school. Many people come and are dissapointed because it's not what they expected. Some I think could enter and realize it's not all they thought it was, and if given a debt free escape plan, would easily bail and be happy with their decision. Without that plan, many are destined to be future doctors who are fed up with the fact they had to work so hard to enter a profession that they hate but can pay off their student loans.

 

[libertyyne]

Graduation rates are already super high because of pressure from the LCME, it would likely drive up costs for the individual student to subsidize the other students. However if NYU can give all of it's students free tuition maybe medical schools should dip into those endowment to protect our profession and future patients from students who shouldn't be going into the field due to the rigors/stresses. I can already spot students in my class who are being bogged down by the constant stress. It's only going to get worse for many of them.

I think stating that schools should follow the NYU model is a bit like saying "let them eat cake" . There are a handful of schools that have endowments large enough to swing this, but they probably already have a large chunk of change in merit scholarships being awarded. there is a 5% attrition rate @ 6 years. So schools would have an incentive to either pass those folks or charge higher tuition. Either of those solutions seems bad, as even md adcoms make mistake sometimes and some of the people that left my school frankly had no business being in med school or had no idea about the actual rigor required. Medical school is stressful, it is just the nature of the beast. Most people get it together to get through at MD schools.

 

[NicMouse64]

I think stating that schools should follow the NYU model is a bit like saying "let them eat cake" . There are a handful of schools that have endowments large enough to swing this, but they probably already have a large chunk of change in merit scholarships being awarded. there is a 5% attrition rate @ 6 years. So schools would have an incentive to either pass those folks or charge higher tuition. Either of those solutions seems bad, as even md adcoms make mistake sometimes and some of the people that left my school frankly had no business being in med school or had no idea about the actual rigor required. Medical school is stressful, it is just the nature of the beast. Most people get it together to get through at MD schools.

You don't think though that given the option more people wouldn't drop out?

 

[libertyyne]

You don't think though that given the option more people wouldn't drop out?

I know people are not strictly rationale about decision making, but cost is contibuting factor, but I dont think it is as large as you would think it is. Most people that drop out of MD school drop out because they dont want to do it anymore rather than failing out. So people are already dropping out despite the cost. People go to very expensive UGs and Masters and some PHDs and drop out regardless of the sunk cost. Not sure why medical school would be much different.

 

[NicMouse64]

I know people are not strictly rationale about decision making, but cost is contibuting factor, but I dont think it is as large as you would think it is. Most people that drop out of MD school drop out because they dont want to do it anymore rather than failing out. So people are already dropping out despite the cost. People go to very expensive UGs and Masters and some PHDs and drop out regardless of the sunk cost. Not sure why medical school would be much different.

There are some people who fail out, but there are likely others who stay in despite not wanting to do it anymore because of the debt. Or do you think it's just a very small group of people (say 1-5%)?

 

[libertyyne]

There are some people who fail out, but there are likely others who stay in despite not wanting to do it anymore because of the debt. Or do you think it's just a very small group of people (say 1-5%)?

I dont know if there are any studies that have been done on this question. IMO it is probably a very small group of people who do not drop out because of loans.

 

[Deecee2DO]

I don’t think people with true disabilities would mind, but they have to make it tough or every gunner out there would be faking a disability to get an extra 30 minutes per section on step 1.

Yes i agree

 

[Deecee2DO]

I don’t think people with true disabilities would mind, but they have to make it tough or every gunner out there would be faking a disability to get an extra 30 minutes per section on step 1.

Id imagine students with a long history of standardized testing accommodations spanning years (middle school and high school onward) would be much less likely to be denied accommodations for step vs some gunner that fakes learning differences/disabilities

 

[TheRealCookieMonster]

Can we get back on topic here? Let's talk about drugs people!
We can change the entire medical education system on some other metaphysical thread.

 

[PathoTurnUp1865]

Can we get back on topic here? Let's talk about drugs people!
We can change the entire medical education system on some other metaphysical thread.

Cookie Monster is definitely on marijane plus maybe pcp?

 

[TheRealCookieMonster]

Cookie Monster is definitely on marijane plus maybe pcp?

Can I answer that with a meme or have I passed my meme limit for this thread?