Studying medicine mainly for the lifestyle/salary is still worth it.

[JOHNBROCHILL]

What OP is posting is the mere baseline for anyone going into Medicine. Everybody wants to make a good salary, be respected and be the Big Cheese. We're just trying to point out that with all of the sacrifices involved, if there aren't extra reasons, like being willing to serve others, that one will be a miserable doctor. Just look at the recent post by @JustPlainBill about having to deal with "Dr Google", or any of our EM residents who have to deal with drug seekers...especially lowlife drug seekers.

By the logic of everybody wants to make a good salary and be the big cheese I think everybody wants to help others and make a difference in someones life as well. I've never met someone who did not want to help anyone. There are far superior ways to help larger numbers of people than being a doctor. My point is if it is such a dominating force for so many people they would likely be happier in other careers. Then what comes next is the "oh but my love for science and problem solving.." and that's when I begin to get nauseous.

You don't need to love helping people so much to move past the drug seekers and keep your martyrdom alive. A nice fat check can do that just as easily.

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[MDProspect]

By the logic of everybody wants to make a good salary and be the big cheese I think everybody wants to help others and make a difference in someones life as well. I've never met someone who did not want to help anyone. There are far superior ways to help larger numbers of people than being a doctor. My point is if it is such a dominating force for so many people they would likely be happier in other careers. Then what comes next is the "oh but my love for science and problem solving.." and that's when I begin to get nauseous.

You don't need to love helping people so much to move past the drug seekers and keep your martyrdom alive. A nice fat check can do that just as easily.

This reminds me of the interview question that I was recently asked. The question was along the lines of most premeds stating that they want to become doctors in order to help people or because of their passions for science; however, would you still want to become a physician if your salary was cut down to about a 1/4 of what physicians are making now in order to lower the cost of medicine.

 

[vendtex]

This reminds me of the interview question that I was recently asked. The question was along the lines of most premeds stating that they want to become doctors in order to help people or because of their passions for science; however, would you still want to become a physician if your salary was cut down to about a 1/4 of what physicians are making now in order to lower the cost of medicine.

I think that is a false dichotomy.

 

[Dynam0]

CRNAs start out with great six-figure salaries and working conditions. All the ones who went through the program attached to the hospital I worked at had jobs lined up well before graduation. They were averaging ~$200k, but they did have call.

The question one need ask themselves is how stable is this? Before the petroleum engineering bust, anecdotes were abound of some 21 year old kid making in excess of 130K on rigs. Now that the field became saturated and big oil collapsed, do you hear these anecdotes anymore?

What is stopping people from enrolling into a CRNA program by the boatloads so that the field saturates and supply significantly outweighs demand? Do CRNAs have the requisite skills to actually justify their salaries in a pure free-market system without a highly powerful political lobbying group on their side? Is the CRNA program like medicine wherein once you are in and perform adequately, you are at least guaranteed a cushy job and lifestyle even if other aspects of the job are not ideal? Or, like most other fields, there are no guarantees even after you are in and perform exceptionally well and could still end up unemployed?

These are all questions one must ask themselves about this field. The answers to these questions would, in fact, you will find will align a lot more with what I am saying and things could change quite drastically in a rather quick manner.

 

[Dynam0]

It's another case of anecdotal evidence, but I am friends with severa PhDs, and none of them are without work. My friend is a PhD in the private sector because he had no interest in teaching. He actually doesn't like his job, but it has to do with the nature of being a private sector scientist, not how difficult it was to find work.

I also know a few academics. None of them had trouble finding professor jobs after finishing their PhDs. They were just flexible (we are in Cali, and one of them had to move to Boston).

My sister-in-law is finishing her PhD in England and already has a job lined up (will admit that hers is in the humanities though).

The only one who doesn't have a job is my younger sister, but she just passed quals last year, so she had plenty of time.

I don't deny what you are saying, but you need to be cognizant of the fact that you are friends with rather exceptional people and likely not the average or even above-average PhD graduate. I am sure a circle composed of UC Berkeley and MIT PhDs will have people over-represented in academia, industry, consulting, on wall street, etc. vs say a circle composed of Georgia Tech and Florida State PhDs who will have much more limited opportunities available to them.

Here's an article I would recommend you read as far as the academic job market is concerned when it comes to PhDs. It's surprisingly resembles the law job market more than anything else:

The Academy's dirty secret

While the opposition of nervous professors and delusional grad students can rightfully argue the unemployment rate of PhDs is quite low, there is no data on the types of positions these graduates occupy and, more likely than not, they are doing work that does not require a PhD at all or, worst yet, any post-secondary education. What would be a more eye-opening experience is asking the professors at your typical state-school what there PhD graduates who have left academia are doing or where they have ended up. You will find a surprising number of them will be clueless or ignorant about their graduate's current employment situation. Moreover, it isn't really even a justified argument anymore seeing as recent data shows
unemployment for PhDs continues to surge:

STEM Ph.D. workforce, unemployment surges.

 

[vendtex]

The question one need ask themselves is how stable is this? Before the petroleum engineering bust, anecdotes were abound of some 21 year old kid making in excess of 130K on rigs. Now that the field became saturated and big oil collapsed, do you hear these anecdotes anymore?

What is stopping people from enrolling into a CRNA program by the boatloads so that the field saturates and supply significantly outweighs demand? Do CRNAs have the requisite skills to actually justify their salaries in a pure free-market system without a highly powerful political lobbying group on their side? Is the CRNA program like medicine wherein once you are in and perform adequately, you are at least guaranteed a cushy job and lifestyle even if other aspects of the job are not ideal? Or, like most other fields, there are no guarantees even after you are in and perform exceptionally well and could still end up unemployed?

These are all questions one must ask themselves about this field. The answers to these questions would, in fact, you will find will align a lot more with what I am saying and things could change quite drastically in a rather quick manner.

Actually, I think in the mid 90s some people even from top anesthesia programs were only getting offers in the $70s because there was a glut of them. Things have changed a lot since, but...

 

[Dynam0]

Go back re-read what I wrote, especially about the part of my job hunting friend.

Good reading skills are require for success on MCAT. Remember that when you sit down for the CARS section. I'm not so far way from the pulse of the PhD job market that I'm unaware, as I stated above, that most PhDs are, like thoroughbreds, trained for one thing and one thing only: to get a research lab and a tenure track position. This mindset persists despite the fact that more people have been going into industry than Academia for the past 15-20 years.

Be that as it may, there are jobs out there, outside of endless post-doc positions, IF one is willing to veer off the racetrack. My wife got burnt out on teaching Chemistry early on, got a well paying lab tech/mgr job for awhile, then went into Tech Support, and she's making more money that I am....and I have a nice salary!

Gravy train indeed. I'm a teacher first, then a researcher.

Your job hunting friend sounds like an anomaly, indeed. Especially when there are no shortages of PhDs with a hunger for research, quality heavily cited publications in nature, and who worked under PIs that are considered foremost experts in their field, and even they can't seem to get interviews at small liberal-arts schools with a very limited science department.

I presented to you facts and hard data, and you made this a personal attack and added in a useless anecdote for good measure. Definitely sounds like the MO of a quality scientist who beat out all of the other highly qualified candidates for a tenure position. Or not. But if this is how you make convincing arguments to your colleagues when presented with data that challenges your worldview or school of thought on a particular scientific matter, then you only further help to prove my point about medicine and the 1:1 transformation. And since you made this personal, go and check my previous thread from years ago and stats. The MCAT was a relative joke compared to the GRE and if I decided to drop everything tomorrow and become a medical student I could easily given my stats. It is too bad your snarky assumptions about me are rather baseless, isn't it?

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I don't deny what you are saying, but you need to be cognizant of the fact that you are friends with rather exceptional people and likely not the average or even above-average PhD graduate. I am sure a circle composed of UC Berkeley and MIT PhDs will have people over-represented in academia, industry, consulting, on wall street, etc. vs say a circle composed of Georgia Tech and Florida State PhDs who will have much more limited opportunities available to them.

Here's an article I would recommend you read as far as the academic job market is concerned when it comes to PhDs. It's surprisingly resembles the law job market more than anything else:

The Academy's dirty secret

While the opposition of nervous professors and delusional grad students can rightfully argue the unemployment rate of PhDs is quite low, there is no data on the types of positions these graduates occupy and, more likely than not, they are doing work that does not require a PhD at all or, worst yet, any post-secondary education. What would be a more eye-opening experience is asking the professors at your typical state-school what there PhD graduates who have left academia are doing or where they have ended up. You will find a surprising number of them will be clueless or ignorant about their graduate's current employment situation. Moreover, it isn't really even a justified argument anymore seeing as recent data shows
unemployment for PhDs continues to surge:

STEM Ph.D. workforce, unemployment surges.

None of my friends went to Berkley or MIT. I have heard it's hard out there, but all of my friends seem fine. They went to respectable programs, but not the top ones. They have all said if you are willing to relocate or take a job with maybe not quite the job title you were looking for, you should be fine.

 

[Dynam0]

100% true. Even if I hated my job I would still do it because the lifestyle is baller. Luckily I don't hate my job so that's good.

I honestly think that all pre-meds should have to do several months of construction or manual labor so that when they become physicians they will know how good they have it, and they won't be such whiny brats when they get presented with more work day after day. Work is work is work is work. Suck it up and get it done.

Good post. Or not even manual labor. Try any other career outside of healthcare for a few years before coming back into medicine to actually appreciate these aspects of medicine. I always laugh hysterically when lurking and reading the typical frustrated medical student or resident saying they wish they could go back to undergrad and study to become a hedgefund manager or investment banker. Who really is deluded enough to believe the average socially awkward med student that typically comes from a working class immigrant or middle class family would have the social acumen, familial connections, and what have you to make it to the absolute top of those fields? More likely they will just be decent, "good", or just above-average which is nowhere near as good enough to earn what they would as a physician in those fields or even have a job to begin with.

 

[Goro]

Ditto this, as I have been fruitlessly trying to point out. In this business nowadays, for ph.ds one has to be willing to reinvent myself. If you can do that there's a decent life waiting for you.

None of my friends went to Berkley or MIT. I have heard it's hard out there, but all of my friends seem fine. They went to respectable programs, but not the top ones. They have all said if you are willing to relocate or take a job with maybe not quite the job title you were looking for, you should be fine.

 

[Dynam0]

I don't think anybody shows up to residency expecting to leave promptly. It's more like medical students show up to rotation and don't want to call outside hospitals to get records or make photocopies or other 'scut' non learning work that is important for the team and patient care. MS3/4 is more about job training than academic learning.

Anyways, OP writes a very true statement that the idealists on this board will vehemently deny. Personally, I will gladly bust my butt for prestige, respect, money, status with women, and social status in life. Medicine is a near certain way of achieving all of those goals with something I've always been good at...school. It was always the obvious choice for me. I could have done other routes to try and obtain these things, but they are less certain. I know I test well on multiple choice exams. Medicine is safe and checks my boxes. Why would I do anything else..?

Exactly. If one can tolerate the other aspects of the field, enjoys science, and has a high pain threshold, how does this not make sense as a good career choice?

Let's perfectly be honest with ourselves. If the US were to become like the European countries where physician salaries tanked, but the debt-load is proportionally just as small and is largely absorbed by the government, how many premeds and even medical students would be on this site claiming they studied medicine because of a "higher calling"? Let's say the average debt for medical school was 15-20K, PCP paid on average 60K, specialties paid on average 80K, and only the surgical and certain specialties broke the 100K barrier. To make things more interesting and fair, let's say there was legislation in place that largely made it as difficult to prosecute physicians as in many of these other countries compared to how it is now in the US. So debt and liability is proportionally lower. Is anyone under the delusion that these forums would be anywhere near as popular as they are now and enrollment needs to actively be capped by the AMA as is currently the case?


The truth is, a lot of people study medicine as a guaranteed ticket into a comfortable lifestyle, or as a ticket out of poverty and I am merely saying there is nothing wrong with that so long as they can also tolerate the other aspects of the profession and enjoy the scientific/medical aspects as well. But, if you say that to the hippies that sit on the admission committees it is a surefire way to get rejected at the interview.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Exactly. If one can tolerate the other aspects of the field, enjoys science, and has a high pain threshold, how does this not make sense as a good career choice?

Let's perfectly be honest with ourselves. If the US were to become like the European countries where physician salaries tanked, but the debt-load is proportionally just as small and is largely absorbed by the government, how many premeds and even medical students would be on this site claiming they studied medicine because of a "higher calling"? Let's say the average debt for medical school was 15-20K, PCP paid on average 60K, specialties paid on average 80K, and only the surgical and certain specialties broke the 100K barrier. To make things more interesting and fair, let's say there was legislation in place that largely made it as difficult to prosecute physicians as in many of these other countries compared to how it is now in the US. So debt and liability is proportionally lower. Is anyone under the delusion that these forums would be anywhere near as popular as they are now and enrollment needs to actively be capped by the AMA as is currently the case?


The truth is, a lot of people study medicine as a guaranteed ticket into a comfortable lifestyle, or as a ticket out of poverty and I am merely saying there is nothing wrong with that so long as they can also tolerate the other aspects of the profession and enjoy the scientific/medical aspects as well. But, if you say that to the hippies that sit on the admission committees it is a surefire way to get rejected at the interview.

Sounds similar to military medicine. My med school debt will be zero, but I'll still have some undergrad debt and my salary will be just over six figures. But as long as I can feed, clothe, and shelter my family, the money isn't important to me.

 

[Dynam0]

None of my friends went to Berkley or MIT. I have heard it's hard out there, but all of my friends seem fine. They went to respectable programs, but not the top ones. They have all said if you are willing to relocate or take a job with maybe not quite the job title you were looking for, you should be fine.

What was their field, if you don't mind me asking? Or did they all come from different fields? Do they all work jobs that explicitly require PhDs or at, the very least, compensate them significantly for their PhD over someone with an MS and equivalent number of years in industry experience?

Some PhDs admittedly do well, but it depends on their specialization for sure, and the number of X topics one can specialize in that will make them marketable is vastly, vastly overshadowed by the number of Y topics that only qualify you for a job being a postdoc serf. For example, there are certain math PhDs who can find work in software or finance because of their chosen topic, Physics and chemistry PhDs that can find work in highly classified defense labs essentially continuing what they did during their PhD, but for every PhD you have in those roles you have 10 others who are languishing in the academic rat race because of a lack of other options or work some unrelated job that had nothing to do with 7-10+ years of education they underwent.

 

[Kurk]

I really agree with the manual labor thing. So many of my classmates suffer from being extremely book-smart and having no life-skills. They don't know how to interact with elders and those of higher social status (e.g judges) outside of school, couldn't write a check or change their car's tire/oil to save their life, and probably would go through withdrawal if their iphone was taken away for a day. It's pathetically sad and depressing to be around them quite honestly. I'm glad to be detailing cars as a side-job currently and plan to do some mechanical work in the future as well. I think it's great to be able to learn the value of physical work while also doing something that comes as being therapeutic.

OP you made some great points and I wholeheartedly agree with you.

 

[DetectiveAlonzo]

I don't know your entire work history, but as your name suggests, you went from one white collar job to another. Until you have tried manual labor, then you don't know what it is like. Not every construction worker will only live for their weekends nor only invest what is required of them. A lot of people that I worked with were doing construction jobs in order to save money and start their own businesses. The type of construction worker that you are describing are usually immigrants who have limited employment opportunities due to their limited language abilities, or someone who is complacent with their lifestyle and does not want to work harder to change their situation. Personally, I am thankful that my parents forced me to find employment at the age of 15. Not only did I learn the value of money, but every time I want to slack off, I start thinking about the time when I had to pull wires through fiberglass in sweltering heat. Yes, premeds have vast job opportunities, but how many of them actually put any effort into seizing those opportunities? Many, if not most of my classmates in undergrad coasted of their parents or only worked in clean, office jobs for pocket money.

AINT THAT THE ****ING TRUTH?!

I realized working at my family friend's liquor store mopping floors and selling packs of Marlboro 1-hunnids wasn't the life for me.

NOOOOO sir.

Bunch of these whiny ass pre meds are sheltered and they don't even know it,

****ing brats.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

What was their field, if you don't mind me asking? Or did they all come from different fields? Do they all work jobs that explicitly require PhDs or at, the very least, compensate them significantly for their PhD over someone with an MS and equivalent number of years in industry experience?

Some PhDs admittedly do well, but it depends on their specialization for sure, and the number of X topics one can specialize in that will make them marketable is vastly, vastly overshadowed by the number of Y topics that only qualify you for a job being a postdoc serf. For example, there are certain math PhDs who can find work in software or finance because of their chosen topic, Physics and chemistry PhDs that can find work in highly classified defense labs essentially continuing what they did during their PhD, but for every PhD you have in those roles you have 10 others who are languishing in the academic rat race because of a lack of other options or work some unrelated job that had nothing to do with 7-10+ years of education they underwent.

One is in economics, one is in chemistry, one in clinical psych, one in art history, one in mathematics. I don't know if the art history PhD is required because I don't know anything about art conservation, which is what she we will be doing. The rest either are or will be doing jobs that require a PhD. The only one who won't is the clinical psych PhD (who is my sister), but that is just because she had like 3 years left and hasn't even started looking for a job yet.

 

[JustAPhD]

The MCAT was a relative joke compared to the GRE

That's a new one.

 

[ZPakEffect]

That's a new one.

Seems like dispositive evidence of a troll to me.

 

[Dynam0]

One is in economics, one is in chemistry, one in clinical psych, one in art history, one in mathematics. I don't know if the art history PhD is required because I don't know anything about art conservation, which is what she we will be doing. The rest either are or will be doing jobs that require a PhD. The only one who won't is the clinical psych PhD (who is my sister), but that is just because she had like 3 years left and hasn't even started looking for a job yet.

The bolded makes sense. Econ and certain finance PhD programs have good options in industry. Certain engineering specialties also. I believe I have addressed the underlined and why certain topics can be quite desirable to employers and thus make them employable. The rest are either as expected (clincal psych) or anomalies in the case of art history. IMO, I am more inclined to believe you know an exceptional of people or the exceptions to the rules of their respective programs. I would certainly be interested in knowing how their colleagues who specialized in other topics or had different advisers are fairing.

 

[Dynam0]

That's a new one.

Maybe the biology GRE is a big joke and comparable to the BS part of the MCAT in difficulty, I don't know. But if you think the simple motion along an inclined plane problems or the trivial reaction problems compare to any of the countless advanced problems in the physics, engineering, or chemistry GREs, then I would recommend you go take it and prove us simple minded plebs wrong.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

The bolded makes sense. Econ and certain finance PhD programs have good options in industry. Certain engineering specialties also. I believe I have addressed the underlined and why certain topics can be quite desirable to employers and thus make them employable. The rest are either as expected (clincal psych) or anomalies in the case of art history. IMO, I am more inclined to believe you know an exceptional of people or the exceptions to the rules of their respective programs. I would certainly be interested in knowing how their colleagues who specialized in other topics or had different advisers are fairing.

Couldn't tell you. My n=5 experience is pretty limited. I can ask them how their colleagues fared. The math PhD encouraged me to consider getting a PhD if med school doesn't work out. For what it's worth, the chem PhD told me to run away from it--he hates his job (he's a PI at a pharm company).

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Maybe the biology GRE is a big joke and comparable to the BS part of the MCAT in difficulty, I don't you. But if you think the simple motion along an inclined plane problems or the trivial reaction problems compare to any of the countless advanced problems in the physics, engineering, or chemistry GREs, then I would recommend you go take it and prove us simple minded plebs wrong.

I haven't taken the MCAT yet, but the general GRE was not difficult. I haven't taken the math GRE, but I bet with some prep time, I could do pretty well. My assumption, which could be wrong, is that the MCAT is much more broad.

 

[Dynam0]

I haven't taken the MCAT yet, but the general GRE was not difficult. I haven't taken the math GRE, but I bet with some prep time, I could do pretty well. My assumption, which could be wrong, is that the MCAT is much more broad.

It is true MCAT is broad, but it proportionally lacks the depth. At least the old one I took before the changes, can't commend on the new one so I concede I could be radically wrong about how things are now. Your competition is different, as well. You are competing with a large swathe of premeds where a large percentage don't even have the grades to get in in the first place. In say the math GRE, you are competing against people who largely know what they are doing and otherwise have a good shot at getting into graduate school (have the grades, the research experience, LORs, etc.)

 

[vendtex]

Maybe the biology GRE is a big joke and comparable to the BS part of the MCAT in difficulty, I don't know. But if you think the simple motion along an inclined plane problems or the trivial reaction problems compare to any of the countless advanced problems in the physics, engineering, or chemistry GREs, then I would recommend you go take it and prove us simple minded plebs wrong.

Agreed but part of the difficulty of the MCAT is the fact that it's several subjects not just one even though the depth is less.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[JustAPhD]

Maybe the biology GRE is a big joke and comparable to the BS part of the MCAT in difficulty, I don't know. But if you think the simple motion along an inclined plane problems or the trivial reaction problems compare to any of the countless advanced problems in the physics, engineering, or chemistry GREs, then I would recommend you go take it and prove us simple minded plebs wrong.

The MCAT covers a much broader subject matter field than any subject GRE test ever would. If you're taking a subject GRE test then yes it should be in greater detail because it's solely on that topic...but you usually know your stuff about that particular subject anyway and it's much easier to prep for one subject than it is the host of subjects the MCAT tests for at once. Thus, I really find it hard to label any GRE harder than the MCAT.

 

[eteshoe]

Maybe the biology GRE is a big joke and comparable to the BS part of the MCAT in difficulty, I don't know. But if you think the simple motion along an inclined plane problems or the trivial reaction problems compare to any of the countless advanced problems in the physics, engineering, or chemistry GREs, then I would recommend you go take it and prove us simple minded plebs wrong.

So I've taken the MCAT, general GRE and Biochem GRE (since I applied to MD/PhD and PhD programs), and Fundamentals of Engineering (FE) exams. While the FE covered a lot of advanced materials, it was actually the easiest in the sense that it didn't require that high of a mark to pass (I think I scored in the 70-75% range). The MCAT and GRE (which I took just after the major format change) were both pretty tough in the sense that I needed to score in the 90th+ percentile for both and preparing for both was quite exhausting (since the goal of the two exams are quite different). The Biochem GRE just sucked - it was just way more material than I'd anticipated but turned out not to be necessary when I did well on the MCAT and general GRE.

 

[vendtex]

Psych GRE much easier than MCAT


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[prettyNURSEtoMD]

Didn't even read what you wrote.

If you wanna do it for the money, go the RN ---> CRNA route.

make $250,000+ and work only 40 hours a week. No call. No liability.

You're right about that! 125-150 starting as a new grad!



Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[DetectiveAlonzo]

You're right about that! 125-150 starting as a new grad!



Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

Yupp. That's as a NEW grad too.

Jeez... look at you!

Change your name to pretty AND smart nursetomd!

 

[Kurk]

I just had a businessman come in to speak to my school today. He mentioned medicine and how his spouse is a physician. The words coming out of his mouth were "that's a whole lot of work for not that much money....if you like business don't go into medicine; the government is taking control of that".

 

[Sardinia]

I wonder if the OP is still trapped within a Stephen King/Ayn Rand novel.

... 21 year old kid making in excess of 130K on rigs...

... pure free-market system without a highly powerful political lobbying group... on their side? Is the CRNA program like medicine wherein once you are in and perform adequately, you are at least guaranteed a cushy job and lifestyle even if other aspects of the job are not ideal? Or, like most other fields, there are no guarantees even after you are in and perform exceptionally well and could still end up unemployed...

These are all questions one must ask themselves about this field. The answers to these questions would, in fact, you will find will align a lot more with what I am saying and things could change quite drastically in a rather quick manner.

 

[sliceofbread136]

I think you missed the point of my post so I will clarify, but first I will ask you a question: have you ever been paid to do construction or other forms of heavy manual labor? I have done manual labor in my life and it did two things for me:

1) It gave me a good, strong work ethic that I see SO many of my colleagues fail to possess. "Why are you consulting me on this patient?" "What do you expect me to do?" "wah wah wah!" The never ending cycle of whining frustrates me to no end. Most physicians need stronger work ethics and less whining.
2) It made me realize how freaking awesome I have it. Like how AMAZING my life currently is. Even the worst days of the ED, I just remember the hours spent shoveling dirt and I'm like: hey this is pretty good.

I've had many, many jobs in my life but none of them stung like manual labor. It is a different beast. I currently make more in one hour than I did during a whole days work in labor and yet I worked harder in one hour as a laborer than I do in an entire ED shift currently.

You don't have to believe me, that's fine. I just wish that more physicians would have a better work ethic and realize how absolutely blessed they are to have the jobs they currently have. Maybe that would make them start helping each other instead of constantly bickering, insulting, and whining about how hard their life is. That's all.

Would pick 40hr/wk shoveling dirt over 100hr/wk surgery or ob/gyn rotations anyday.

 

[DetectiveAlonzo]

Would pick 40hr/wk shoveling dirt over 100hr/wk surgery or ob/gyn rotations anyday.

Lol then quit fool.

 

[sliceofbread136]

Lol then quit fool.

If I had to ob/gyn or surg I would quit. In fact I would probably kill myself

 

[Futurepumpkinfarmer]

That is so long as one can tolerate it. It is funny to see the common refrain of "go into finance if you want to make money, not medicine!", as if the average finance graduate will ever earn anywhere near as much over a lifetime as an MD who was at bottom of their class. The fact of the matter is, medicine and a select other few fields you can count one hand (i.e dentistry) are the only fields where one's raw academic performance translates directly to a comfortable and promising lifestyle for them and their future families.

In finance/business, to make anywhere near an MD earns you generally have to attend a very prestigious school, have a near perfect GPA along with extraordinary ECs that far exceed anything the average medical student has, have connections out the wazoo, have carefully constructed internships at major firms during your undergraduate, and all of this to only have the chance to interview at a place and possibly not even get the job. You can do everything right and be perfect on paper and even in the interview, but many things will be out of your control such as the interviewer not liking your "tie", or graduating into a terrible economy, and many other things that will force you to languish like the typical business/finance graduate in a bank teller role or an accounting position that pays $10/hr.

In the natural and biological sciences, same story to a lesser degree. You can be absolutely exceptional with a near perfect GPA, multiple research publications, have a PI who is the foremost expert in the world in his field, glowing letters of recommendations, and all-in-all an exceptional scientist but that still won't be good enough to get a professorship and thus you will languish as a post-doc slave living in poverty in many places. If you decide to go into industry and you are extremely fortunate by landing one of those extremely rare R&D positions that requires major connections and networking as well, you will be a wage slave for management and will constantly be told to be grateful you even have a job even if the secretaries are earning more than you for if you don't like it, they can easily hire some third-world PhD who will gladly work for peanuts and no benefits. Things are a little better in engineering, but the story these days is more comparable to finance where you now need to be perfect on paper and also have the right connections to get the job in most cases. There are countless examples of people who graduated with near perfect GPAs and stellar research experience and were rebuffed by employers for not being a "good corporate fit" and instead the guy who barely passed but whose father was in the same fraternity as the CEO of the company gets the job. Nepotism is rampant in this field.


To conclude, we live in a brave new world where the average person will no longer earn a decent and reasonable living. The middle class is poised to most probably die out assuming current trends continue. In light of that, medicine still remains to be one of the only fields where academic performance will almost always be rewarded with a comfortable lifestyle. I can see how things are not as gravy as they used to be 20 or 30 years ago, which is true for practically all other fields, but medicine still seems to be a field that will still reward you in proportion to your hard work and perseverance, which is unfortunately not true for most other fields where this was once the case. I know I will be attacked by disgruntled residents and medical students and told I am just a premed who doesn't know anything about the real world (I am not a premed, btw), and I certainly have no shortage of anecdotes and even hard data that can support everything I have said here. If you think you have it bad, just walk to the biology or chemistry department at your school and you will see true horror stories. People in their 30s and 40s who have been training 10+ years for their role and not earning much more than the cleaning staff and there is no light at the tunnel for them where all of their hard work eventually pays off. That will really open your eyes to just how good you have it. There are no greener pastures, just a desolate wasteland.

Hard to tell without your GPA anf MCAT scores.

 

[LePepe]

Please restrain your ignorance of the job prospects of PhDs in academic tracks. Yes, getting a tenure track job in a research venue at an MD school or a UG major university IS hard...it takes having grant money to land a position nowadays, even at smaller med schools.

That said, there are still faculty jobs out there if one is willing to reinvent oneself, like, I did, for one, and take a job with primarily teaching responsibilities. Dental, pharmacy, PA programs, lab tech training programs all get overlooked when one is only thinking about playing the Majors. Life at AAA or AA ball isn't bad. One just has to be in the right place at the right time.

I have a friend who has been in several post-doc positions who recently has had a ton of interviews...meaning, she's getting on short lists right away. Her main drawback is that she has a rather wooden, if sweet, personality, and no fire in the belly for research, and most schools want you to so SOME type of scholarly activity.

>Claims the PhD job market is fine

>Cites a "success story" of a friend getting job offers after multiple (presumably low-paying) post-doc positions

 

[DrHart]

why on earth did you guys necro bump this thread? just reading this heaping pile is raising my blood pressure

 

[begoood95]

why on earth did you guys necro bump this thread? just reading this heaping pile is raising my blood pressure

Yeah I agree. I got a real "sentient fedora" vibe from this post.

 

[Goro]

why on earth did you guys necro bump this thread? just reading this heaping pile is raising my blood pressure

I'm getting a whiff of one of these, aren't you?

 

[DetectiveAlonzo]

Just to add more fuel to this fire and add some brutal honesty a lot of pre-meds need to think about...

If all of y'all solely wanna dedicate time to becoming a physician only to rake in $$$money$$$... you should REALLY consider going to PA, NP, or Podiatry.

Medicine is a dying field (ironic huh?)

I would never recommend the med school route for somebody with loans. I know folks with $500,000 in loans they will need to pay back when all is said and done. That's with their expensive undergrad amount totaled in.

Save your money... your headache... go to a CHEAP CC... do ur pre-reqs... go to the cheapest university you can go to to get a bachelor's degree (which you cannot do jack **** with anyway these days) and go into one of the mid-level fields.

Less headache... less time in training... and not to mention less sacrifice for sure.

BUTTTTT.... if you can ONLY see urself going into medicine (which is complete and utter nonsense because you can't say that until you truly are immersed in it...)... then by all means do it you crazy bastards!

This is a lifelong commitment for sure. It changes you in every which way you can imagine. If all you are thinking about is $$$.... you will be VERY disappointed. Mark my words.

 

[mwsapphire]

>Claims the PhD job market is fine

>Cites a "success story" of a friend getting job offers after multiple (presumably low-paying) post-doc positions

He said that friend doesn't have the necessary passion, so that's why she didn't get a job. She wasn't willing to reinvent herself, and he was, and is doing fine now.
Why would you dig through a necrobumped thread just to insult somebody?

 

[LePepe]

He said that friend doesn't have the necessary passion, so that's why she didn't get a job. She wasn't willing to reinvent herself, and he was, and is doing fine now.
Why would you dig through a necrobumped thread just to insult somebody?

Hadn't read this thread before and didn't realize it was necrobumped. Read a few of the posts in the thread. Posted my response to one of them. It wasn't meant to be an insult. I just wanted to point out the irony of the post.

Did you follow that?

 

[Aerus]

This thread contains a lot of realism that we need to consider. It's sometimes easy to jump on the bandwagon and bash any unknown person and side with the popular well-known SDNers and their opinions. But the truth is that a lot of people along the medical path are very sheltered and doing manual labor is a lot tougher than being a doctor for many, so that is a valuable perspective to take into consideration.

I do not agree with a lot of OP's opinions, but this one I do agree with.

 

[gyngyn]

This thread had long since outlived its usefulness.