Suboxone and TKA

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DODOCSS

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No x-waiver

1. Continue suboxone through surgery with SA opioids after, then d/c SA

Or

2. d/c suboxone 72 hrs prior to Sx, SA, then re-induce

Any experience/advice?

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I have done it both ways and it always seems easier to stay on the suboxone in part due to the amount of opioid you need to replace if you take someone off of it. Also it allows for smoother transition back to the suboxone only regimen. We tried halving the dose of suboxone prior to surgery to see if there would be a little more utility with short-acting opioids but that wasn't great either. Regardless the pain will be difficult to control. Some options might be changing the suboxone dosing to 2-3 times a day but keeping overall dose the same. If able I would try to do as much expectation setting with the patient beforehand, and also if some other team is managing post-op pain they will need to understand the patient will need more than typical due to the suboxone.
 
no change in dose- adductor canal catheter for post op pain 3-5 days then celebrex
 
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no change in dose- adductor canal catheter for post op pain 3-5 days then celebrex
Youd never leave a catheter in for that long, they are home for days by then. If a catheter at all youd pull it POD1 or 2 at max. Are you an anesthesiologist? It seems you have some opinions on anesthesia stuff but it seems like layman mindset..

Agree to keep the suboxone on and do SA opioids PRN along with it
 
Yes I would leave a catheter in that long- it is called home infusion. There are several systems that are used in this manner. For spinal cord stimulator leads, I have left them for 10 days during trialing. In the Netherlands they leave them in for 3 months. We also leave intrathecal trial catheters in for 5 days in a sealed system and have done so for decades. So clearly your experience is not the same as mine or my colleagues that have done catheter home infusions for years as long as they are nerve but not joint infusions.
 
Are u able to leave them in so long in TKA patients tho? Last I heard, most orthos want their post op patients up and moving POD #1, and have complained catheter staying in impedes such activity and OOB/ D.C. Home...


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Adductor Canal catheter placed at the level of the sartorius crossing the canal- no numbness- this is completely a sensory block. An adductor canal block using the classical approach is too inferior and misses a significant part of the knee.
 
Yes I would leave a catheter in that long- it is called home infusion. There are several systems that are used in this manner. For spinal cord stimulator leads, I have left them for 10 days during trialing. In the Netherlands they leave them in for 3 months. We also leave intrathecal trial catheters in for 5 days in a sealed system and have done so for decades. So clearly your experience is not the same as mine or my colleagues that have done catheter home infusions for years as long as they are nerve but not joint infusions.

so i guess the answer is no your not an anesthesiologist. IPM catheters are clearly different and with different goals. And thats wonderful that thats how they do things in the Netherlands. But, you were responding to a total joint thread, and your answer was incorrect. No where in the US is what you suggested even considered.
 
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I was trained as and function as an anesthesiologist and have engaged in the practice of pain medicine part time/full time/part time again. It is unclear what you mean by "attitude", but if you are referring to my vast experience of 30 years coming across as pedantic, then I take that as a complement. As for being "off base" with respect to the TKA, the catheter method is how we currently deliver post op pain control after surgery and at home afterwards. With better pain control, surgery is being performed in outpatient centers rather than in hospitals. One of the surgery centers where I render anesthesia does 12 hour C1-2 fusions, open surgery multiple level lumbar fusions, and complex knee surgeries. Adequate post op pain control is increasingly important as what were traditionally hospital based surgeries move into the surgery center arena. Again, we may have different experiences, training, and level of comfort- but your opinion in your medical venue is valid for your patients, and I wouldn't suggest otherwise. I offered to the forum a method that works for me. It may not work for everyone due to surgeon idiosyncrasies, equipment availability, time elements involved in placing such a catheter, home instructions, etc.
 
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I was trained as and function as an anesthesiologist and have engaged in the practice of pain medicine part time/full time/part time again. It is unclear what you mean by "attitude", but if you are referring to my vast experience of 30 years coming across as pedantic, then I take that as a complement. As for being "off base" with respect to the TKA, the catheter method is how we currently deliver post op pain control after surgery and at home afterwards. With better pain control, surgery is being performed in outpatient centers rather than in hospitals. One of the surgery centers where I render anesthesia does 12 hour C1-2 fusions, open surgery multiple level lumbar fusions, and complex knee surgeries. Adequate post op pain control is increasingly important as what were traditionally hospital based surgeries move into the surgery center arena. Again, we may have different experiences, training, and level of comfort- but your opinion in your medical venue is valid for your patients, and I wouldn't suggest otherwise. I offered to the forum a method that works for me. It may not work for everyone due to surgeon idiosyncrasies, equipment availability, time elements involved in placing such a catheter, home instructions, etc.

poll your peers and see how many are leaving a catheter in for 5 days, ive never heard of it before but i admit it sounds interesting. 12 hour cervical spine surgeries in an ASC? must be some good blocks :)
 
Makes me smile- reminds me of a younger me. I remind myself it will be docs like him that care enough to visit the forums and comment that will be the leaders of the future.
 
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I admit I enjoy some kid doc giving you crap having no idea who you are or what you have done for the field.

I made a audible gasp when I read the first post and my wife pulled the car over thinking I was choking.


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