summers in med school: 4 yr grad entry vs. 5 yr undergrad entry

[jaketheory]

hi, i am expecting to get a permanent resident visa approval in 2009. given the timing of when i could activate it, i may not be able to make the deadline for grad entry medicine, so am considering 5 yr undergrad entry programs. given i would have to delay a 4yr program a year, and not the 5yr prgram, i would finish the 5yr program at the same time as i were to finish the 4yr program.

obvious reasons for me to wait a year to go for the 4 yr grad entry is one less year of tuition, and one less year of studying. however, i have been told that the 5 yr programs give you all summers off, unlike the 4 yr programs. if the aus 4 yr programs are like those in the US, you'd get ~3 months off after first year and ~1 month after 2nd year, and not much else. however, if the 5 yr programs give you 3 months every summer, actually study time is only about 4 months more than the 4 yr programs. thus i could work a total of 12 months full-time during summers. does this seem accurate?

if the only substantial additional cost in doing the 5 yr over the 4yr is the additional year of tuition, which is 8.5kAUD for commonwealth supported places, that is not that bad (still under 50k total, which compared to US tuition rates is still great).

my visa will be sponsored by the state of NSW, so i have to stay in NSW the first 2 years. thus my only options are, for 4 yr grad entry: USyd, Wollongong, and Notre Dame Sydney; and for 5 yr undergrad entry: Western Sydney and Newcastle. I'm very interested in Notre Dame as they require a CV, reference letters, a personal statement, and may consider my postbac grades which could overshadow my mediocre bachelor's gpa: i maintained 4.0/4 for 2 years full-time during postbac, have worked in a lab at the harvard school of public health for the last 3 years, and the lab's head, which is both professor of medicine and professor of cardiovascular disease prevention, will write me a strong letter.

but if cost less than 10k more to start med school immediately, i can graduate by the same time i would a 4yr program, and can work a total of 12 months during summers, it may not be a bad option. i also may have a better chance of getting in a 5 yr program. i would guess with the increasing number of grad entry places, fewer gradautes would be competing for undergrad entry schools. and if i fail to get into a 4 yr program my first time, id have to wait at minimum an additional yet another year to finish.

all comments welcome.

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[JoeNamaMD]

So you did not apply as an international? Have you taken the GAMSAT or MCAT?

 

[jaketheory]

So you did not apply as an international? Have you taken the GAMSAT or MCAT?

i did not apply as an international. haven't taken the gamsat or mcat. dont plan on taking the mcat since i'll be going to aus. i'll also need to take the umat for the 5 yr schools.

 

[JoeNamaMD]

It will make a lot more sense to apply to a grad entry program, although the five year programs in NSW are also fine options. ACER only considers the grades from a latest completed Bachelor's degree. I did a year of Medical Science at UQ and they did not care.

 

[jaketheory]

It will make a lot more sense to apply to a grad entry program, although the five year programs in NSW are also fine options. ACER only considers the grades from a latest completed Bachelor's degree. I did a year of Medical Science at UQ and they did not care.

did you consider undergrad entry? because obviously doing a year of med science and then grad entry medicine is a total of 5 years, the same as some undergrad entry med programs.

i'm thinking now there is a good chance ill have my visa in time to apply for grad entry programs. from web forums it is looking like processing times are 7-9 months which is cutting it close.

i am still considering undergrad entry though. if i dont get in to a grad entry program i could probably finish a 2nd degree in biochemistry within one year given i have 2 years of post-bac coursework, and that would increase my gpa from 3.05/4.0 (2.90 unweighted for USyd) to nearly perfect if i can keep up high marks in that last year (my gpa over postbac work is ~4.0). but rather than doing one year for a second bachelors plus 4 years of med school, i could just do a 5 year undergrad medicine, which would give me considerably more summer months off.

if i cant get in grad medicine, is there any reasons i would want to do one year plus 4 year grad medicine over 5 year undergrad medicine?

all perspectives and opinions welcomed.

 

[JoeNamaMD]

It would not have mattered if I did undergrad entry, the medsci classes would not have transferred, only Bond and JCU are the only undergrad med schools in Queensland.

If you are looking for financial aid, undergrad entry might lower the amount you would get, I am not 100 percent sure of this though. Grad Entry programs like UQ, Sydney, Melbourne, and Flinders qualify for Stafford and Gradplus loans. Gradplus has made it a lot easier for people with borderline credit to get student loans.

In the past, in the Australian health system some people were biased in favor of undergraduate MBBS over graduate MBBS students, a lot of people felt that when 5 and 6 year course were shrunk to four years that a lot of material was removed, and grad entry students had weaker basic science aptitudes, this has changed though.

I knew one guy with a Phd from a big American university who is Australian and got rejected by Grad Entry programs twice, he decided to apply to undergraduate entry programs and got into one.

 

[jaketheory]

It would not have mattered if I did undergrad entry, the medsci classes would not have transferred, only Bond and JCU are the only undergrad med schools in Queensland.

If you are looking for financial aid, undergrad entry might lower the amount you would get, I am not 100 percent sure of this though. Grad Entry programs like UQ, Sydney, Melbourne, and Flinders qualify for Stafford and Gradplus loans. Gradplus has made it a lot easier for people with borderline credit to get student loans.

In the past, in the Australian health system some people were biased in favor of undergraduate MBBS over graduate MBBS students, a lot of people felt that when 5 and 6 year course were shrunk to four years that a lot of material was removed, and grad entry students had weaker basic science aptitudes, this has changed though.

I knew one guy with a Phd from a big American university who is Australian and got rejected by Grad Entry programs twice, he decided to apply to undergraduate entry programs and got into one.

Yeah, i know the year of med sci would not transfer to the undergrad courses (genereally). I mean instead of doing a year of med sci and then grad entry, you could have just done undergrad entry which would have taken the same amount of time as the med sci+grad entry. did you not consider it when you were going through the process?

Are you an American with aussie PR?

Yeah, i did not consider that i could get more stafford loans with grad entry. Furthermore, on one forum, i think it was paging dr. or medstudentonline, someone posted that going undergrad entry you cannot get Austudy through centrelink. Now, i know as a new PR i cant get this for 2 years anyway, but it would sure be nice to have after that. You know anything about not being able to get Austudy. I think its because it is doing another bachelor (as i am a graduate) which does not require a previous degree, whilst grad entry programs qualify since they require a previous bachelor.

if it is true i cant get austsudy in addition to getting less stafford through undergrad entry, i might just keep reapplying grad until i get in. even if it means spending a year to complete a 2nd bachelors to improve my gpa.

 

[jaketheory]

It would not have mattered if I did undergrad entry, the medsci classes would not have transferred, only Bond and JCU are the only undergrad med schools in Queensland.

If you are looking for financial aid, undergrad entry might lower the amount you would get, I am not 100 percent sure of this though. Grad Entry programs like UQ, Sydney, Melbourne, and Flinders qualify for Stafford and Gradplus loans. Gradplus has made it a lot easier for people with borderline credit to get student loans.

In the past, in the Australian health system some people were biased in favor of undergraduate MBBS over graduate MBBS students, a lot of people felt that when 5 and 6 year course were shrunk to four years that a lot of material was removed, and grad entry students had weaker basic science aptitudes, this has changed though.

I knew one guy with a Phd from a big American university who is Australian and got rejected by Grad Entry programs twice, he decided to apply to undergraduate entry programs and got into one.

so i looked up some things from the above discussion. cite a king's college site, an mbbs student can receive the graduate stafford loan limit despite the degree being a bachelor degree because professional students also get the graduate limit. as the undergrad entry programs are obviously also professional, this suggests i could still get the graduate loan limit in an undergrad entry program.

as far as aubstudy goes, i had to do some searching to find anything that address the situation of having a bachelors and going into an undergrad entry bachelor program. centrelink puts grad entry and undergrad entry at different levels, so the situation is not so easy as the stafford loan one. however, http://www.facs.gov.au/guides_acts/ssg/ssguide-3/ssguide-3.3/ssguide-3.3.4/ssguide-3.3.4.80.html states "The following periods of study can be disregarded in assessing whether a customer has exceeded the allowable time for tertiary study at a particular level. Time spent studying in a: . . . course at a foreign institution". As my degree is from the US, it should affect my eligibility for Aubstudy.

then again i did a semester in australia, and that one semester may count against it. but its only one semester, and i was a study abroad student, so not only was i an international student, but my home uni was in another country. i'd guess they wouldnt consider it.

if anyone knows this is not true, i would love to know.