turtle1966

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I would like to suggest that Program Directors make available a list of residents leaving their programs with types of job(s) obtained. The list should include the last 5 years as well. The list does not have to include the names, however, should be specific enough to be verified in this Board.

This should give a true picture of job market for the newly minted pathologists.
 

yaah

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As I said in the other thread, PDs know where everyone went post residency, but if that was to fellowship they are not going to have much more beyond that unless they have a personal connection or the resident went out of their way to inform the program of their status (which is even less likely than the PD making the effort). This is a good question to ask on residency and (especially) fellowship interviews, as fellowship directors are more likely in my experience to know about their graduates, but this is unlikely to be something that shows up on the forums here.

May I also suggest that nothing like this suggestion is really going to give a "true picture of the job market"? People are going to see what they want to see, essentially, and cherry pick or interpret anecdotes that fit their view. The job market, for whatever it is worth, is quite a bit individual. One person's experience really can be quite different from another, even from within programs and from year to year. If you collect a number of anecdotes that can be informative but not that instructive for individuals.

I think part of the problem is that you are asking for data that have not been collected and therefore don't really exist (as far as I know). IMHO the best representation would be what graduates are doing about 5 years after residency (or board cert), because that would include time spent in fellowship and looking for jobs and even accounting for the miserable first job that some people take and discard after a year. But this is extremely difficult logistically to obtain. The boards would be in the best position to collect it since they have everyone's contact info, but I doubt you are going to be able to convince them of the need for such a study, particularly one that they would make public. And they aren't going to do such a thing for the benefit of anonymous internet complainers, to be honest. To have any success with that you would have to convince the board, and you are going to have to do that, because ranting and hoping someone else will do it is unlikely to be productive.

Even if they did do it, it wouldn't tell the whole story. What percentage of US residency grads, for example, actually take the boards? Do some leave the country and not bother? Do some just do research? Do they count in your data? What % of people fail to pass the boards after the allowed # of attempts, and what do they do? How many graduates are not working voluntarily (could find and fill a job but don't), for health or personal reasons?

I know you are looking for simple responses and data but that is not going to really give you what you really want, I am sorry to say.
 
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No way you will ever see this information. PD's stand to gain nothing from disclosing it. Besides, the PD can only track the first job placement and after that the training program is out of the loop (unless a pathologist's second job calls back to the program for references, which is unlikely since the job candidate hasn't been there in several years).
 

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No way you will ever see this information. PD's stand to gain nothing from disclosing it. Besides, the PD can only track the first job placement and after that the training program is out of the loop (unless a pathologist's second job calls back to the program for references, which is unlikely since the job candidate hasn't been there in several years).
Not only that, at least one current PDs that I know about is just a malicious incompetent senile jerk who couldn't make a diagnosis if it hit him on the face, not to mention the former PD (that autopsy guy, not the heme guy) at this same program. Adolfo Firpo-Betancourt, former dean at PR medical school who was then swiftly given the boot following two federal lawsuits against him among other major issues is currently Program Director of Mount sinai hospital's pathology residency program. When he arrived as who knows what, he didn't have his credentials and two, he was out to pasture for about 11+ years following the scandal in PR. Do you really think that he is able to keep track of anything? The ACGME has a rule on not allowing non-practicing doctors from being PDs but apparently that's neither here nor there, as this is the normal politics of the useless organization that is ACGME (replace with a federal organization since all the funding for residency programs are from medicare monies).
 
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LADoc00

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007, this new guy is a DIFFERENT guy that you hate isnt it??

Is it perhaps that Mount Sinai is really the problem? Just sayin.

I will second that there is no reason whatsoever for PDs to do anything to advantage potential applicants in making their decision. So what would be the point?
 

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During interview last year Mayo clinic residency did provide such list. The list had residents from last 5 years whom the program followed for 3 years post graduation with the names of fellowships and type of job obtained. I liked this list a lot. And that was part of the reason I ranked them #1.
 
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turtle1966

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During interview last year Mayo clinic residency did provide such list. The list had residents from last 5 years whom the program followed for 3 years post graduation with the names of fellowships and type of job obtained. I liked this list a lot. And that was part of the reason I ranked them #1.
I would have expected that from Mayo Clinic. Different than in academic centers, at MC, consultants (equivalent to professors) do the actual service work, teach and serve as good role models to residents, rather than pushing out research papers in order to survive. I heard from a famous academician, leaving post of MC consultant for a large academic position, that it was a nothing more than a large private practice. Yea, had other academic centers been a bit more like MC, pathology would be a better specialty.

Do you recall enough of the list to tell me the following?
1-on average, how many residents went straight to private job from a 4 year residency?
2-on average, how many years of fellowship did MC residents do before finding a job?
3-on average, what kind of job did they find?
 

yaah

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Yeah I agree it would be great if all programs had a list like Mayo supposedly has. Like I said, it takes a lot of effort on behalf of someone at the program to keep track of all these people, but it isn't THAT hard, just time consuming. It also is helpful because it provides lists of former residents to contact.
 
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turtle1966

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Yeah I agree it would be great if all programs had a list like Mayo supposedly has. Like I said, it takes a lot of effort on behalf of someone at the program to keep track of all these people, but it isn't THAT hard, just time consuming. It also is helpful because it provides lists of former residents to contact.
An honorable, ethical PD would prepare such a list. A thousand mile journey begins with first small step. This would be a self rolling and perfecting snowball of a project.

Absence of, or resistance to, such a list speaks volumes about the caliber of Academia than to the idea.
 

TGF beta1

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I would have expected that from Mayo Clinic. Different than in academic centers, at MC, consultants (equivalent to professors) do the actual service work, teach and serve as good role models to residents, rather than pushing out research papers in order to survive. I heard from a famous academician, leaving post of MC consultant for a large academic position, that it was a nothing more than a large private practice. Yea, had other academic centers been a bit more like MC, pathology would be a better specialty.

Do you recall enough of the list to tell me the following?
1-on average, how many residents went straight to private job from a 4 year residency?
2-on average, how many years of fellowship did MC residents do before finding a job?
3-on average, what kind of job did they find?
Here is a link with the little bit outdated actual list: http://www.mayo.edu/msgme/residencies-fellowships/pathology-and-laboratory-medicine/anatomic-and-clinical-pathology-residency-minnesota/residents/alumni

Only 2 residents went directly to private practice, there is 50/50 academic to private practice split. 1-2 years of fellowship before the job.
 

Pingu

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Like I said, it takes a lot of effort on behalf of someone at the program to keep track of all these people, but it isn't THAT hard, just time consuming.
With facebook and linked in and all the other social media sites, it actually wouldn't be that hard at all. Plus most hospitals have all their physicans listed on a website and state medical boards also have a physican lookup.

It may have more to do with the fact that most programs could care less once your butt (and grossing appendages) are out the door.
 
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turtle1966

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Here is a link with the little bit outdated actual list: http://www.mayo.edu/msgme/residencies-fellowships/pathology-and-laboratory-medicine/anatomic-and-clinical-pathology-residency-minnesota/residents/alumni

Only 2 residents went directly to private practice, there is 50/50 academic to private practice split. 1-2 years of fellowship before the job.

Jeremiad!! Jeremiad!! Jeremiad!!

In my city, internal medicine PAs are stampeding diseases and dermatology PAs are psoriasis specialists; this with an average intellect, 2 years of post college education, without a debt and without having to move (to find a job).

In pathology, top notch intellect, 4 years of med school plus 4 years of residency plus 2 years of fellowship plus huge debt plus the thrill of getting to live in a never heard of place, in order to be able to sign out an appendicitis!!

This is a self-inflicted and self-engendered situation!

Pathologists wake up! wake up! wake up! Drink no more of this Kool-Aid dispensed by our incompetent, obfuscating and unethical leaders!
 

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007, this new guy is a DIFFERENT guy that you hate isnt it??

Is it perhaps that Mount Sinai is really the problem? Just sayin.

I will second that there is no reason whatsoever for PDs to do anything to advantage potential applicants in making their decision. So what would be the point?

OMG, are you serious?? You do realize that the morons that I hate and the mount sinai hospital is one and the same, right? God lord, you are dumb sometimes but you are catching on dear.