-= SUNY Downstate Class of 2012 =-

[Soggun]

Hi, just wondering what the orientation events are like for this year.

Well, I don't want to give away too much (better to have you guys be surprised). Suffice to say that I personally, along with every other member of my class I've spoken to, had an amazing orientation last year and we (myself and the other 2 orientation coordinators) are looking to carry over many of those ideas into your orientation. We have plenty of things in the works, ranging a huge span of content from more formal orientations to the academics of medical school and financial aid, etc. to social programs including trips to various places around Brooklyn and NYC and other events located right on campus.

In any case, get excited - I personally promise you will have a great orientation week here

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[ssisterdoc]

Well, I don't want to give away too much (better to have you guys be surprised). Suffice to say that I personally, along with every other member of my class I've spoken to, had an amazing orientation last year and we (myself and the other 2 orientation coordinators) are looking to carry over many of those ideas into your orientation. We have plenty of things in the works, ranging a huge span of content from more formal orientations to the academics of medical school and financial aid, etc. to social programs including trips to various places around Brooklyn and NYC and other events located right on campus.

In any case, get excited - I personally promise you will have a great orientation week here

Thanks! Looking forward to it!

 

[blondeoctor]

hey again!

did anyone get a housing assignment yet?
(i haven't)

thanks!

 

[pokimee]

hey again!

did anyone get a housing assignment yet?
(i haven't)

thanks!

i called housing again last thurs and they said they have decided to wait until june 1st to send it out.

 

[Leesheen]

Incoming Downstate 1st year here, hello! I've been debating on-campus vs. off, and really swayed (thanks, Kfier!) to choose "on" primarily for the unbeatable location (avoid subway rides after midnite anatomy) and the social aspect. However, I'm on the fence b/c of the high cost (a studio single=Fall: $5207/Spr: $6445) and that I've been living in regular NYC apts for awhile and am a little hesitant about going back to dorms. CraigsList shows a few apts (like nice 2br hardwood floors=$1400; $700/person! or new 3br=$1500) just 1-4 blocks from Downstate---can any current students give advice on whether it's safe to live in these apts a 5 min walk away, if you're going to be walking home from the carrols at 3am every night?

If verdict is that this is a good option... then, any incoming 1st years interested in teaming to look for a walking-distance cheap & nice 2 or 3br with me for move-in this August? Ahhhhh! gotta figure this all out, on-campus deposit refund deadline is 6/1. See yall soon!

 

[Soggun]

Incoming Downstate 1st year here, hello! I've been debating on-campus vs. off, and really swayed (thanks, Kfier!) to choose "on" primarily for the unbeatable location (avoid subway rides after midnite anatomy) and the social aspect. However, I'm on the fence b/c of the high cost (a studio single=Fall: $5207/Spr: $6445) and that I've been living in regular NYC apts for awhile and am a little hesitant about going back to dorms. CraigsList shows a few apts (like nice 2br hardwood floors=$1400; $700/person! or new 3br=$1500) just 1-4 blocks from Downstate---can any current students give advice on whether it's safe to live in these apts a 5 min walk away, if you're going to be walking home from the carrols at 3am every night?

If verdict is that this is a good option... then, any incoming 1st years interested in teaming to look for a walking-distance cheap & nice 2 or 3br with me for move-in this August? Ahhhhh! gotta figure this all out, on-campus deposit refund deadline is 6/1. See yall soon!

There are a few people in my class who live just a few blocks away, but not many - primarily due to the safety concerns. Long story short, as far as the area goes, if you keep your wits about you and walk with a purpose for the most part you should be fine. That being said, walking anywhere at 3 AM is very, very unadvisable (unless you're with a large group coming back from the subway - and sometimes even then). The good news is that the campus police run a shuttle service, so any time you call they'd be willing to drive you home if you live nearby, and that is absolutely what you should use if you're here at 3 AM studying.

I understand the concern about going back to dorm living, but if you have a single, it really does feel like an apartment. In my room, I share a kitchen and bathroom with 1 other guy and have my own (quite large) bedroom, so that's really not very different from any apartment I'd find. It can get a little expensive and, being completely honest, there are occasionally some inconveniences with heat or hot water or TV/internet service, but those things are usually corrected fairly quickly so it's not a huge deal. In any case, good luck with your decision, I don't think you can go too wrong either way, but I think most of those who lived in the dorms this year are happy they did it because of not only the convenience but also the social aspect.

 

[frogboyy]

All very valid points, and it's really not SO bad living in the dorms again... After living in apts in manhattan, I never thought I'd ever get used to living in the dorms, but they're not bad, and most importantly, I live in a doorman, elevator building, right across the street from the school, with 24-hour security, all utilities included, and laundry in the building. Put that way, it'd be a lot harder to find those things in the immediate surrounding area, and I'd NEVER go to class if I lived off campus (esp since all the lectures are transcribed)

That being said, if you lived off campus, very close by, as Soggun said, you can get security to come and pick you up and take you back, since you REALLY don't want to be walking around the neighbourhood at 3 am in the morning here.

 

[Leesheen]

Thanks for all your responses regarding on-campus/off-campus housing around SUNY campus, they are very helpful.

On a different note: I see that we need to provide proof of completion of required CPR course "the American Heart Association's Basic Life Support for Healthcare Providers course". Can anyone give tips for what's the cheapest and easiest way they found to get this certification?

I looked around on the Americanheart.org website and saw some classes for $90, and also saw things online like this AED/CPR certification for $20 it seems: http://www.icpri.com/courses.php ("This course meets or exceeds the 2005 American Heart Association Guidelines for Cardiopulmonary Resuscitation and Emergency Cardiovascular Care"... not sure if it really meets SUNY's requirement).

I appreciate it!
-Abe

 

[brsboarder]

Abe, make sure you take a class that is American Heart Association, BLS (Basic Life Support) I think my class was around 65, but don't remember.

 

[Jess8000]

Hi guys,

How safe would you say the area around Lenox Rd and New York Ave is?

Relatively safe? Not safe, avoid?

I'll be living off campus and looking to buy a place. Thanks!

 

[Soggun]

Hi guys,

How safe would you say the area around Lenox Rd and New York Ave is?

Relatively safe? Not safe, avoid?

I'll be living off campus and looking to buy a place. Thanks!

Lenox and New York is exactly where the res halls are (res halls on one corner, entrance to the school across the street, and just houses and not much else on the other 2 corners).

So, it's pretty much the same as everything we've said in terms of safety - alright during the day, not so much at night. I feel totally secure in the res halls, but we also have 24hr security, so I really don't know how I'd feel if I didn't have that... My guess is that you'd probably be fine and if you're looking to live near the school, that's as close as you can get.

 

[Jess8000]

Lenox and New York is exactly where the res halls are (res halls on one corner, entrance to the school across the street, and just houses and not much else on the other 2 corners).

So, it's pretty much the same as everything we've said in terms of safety - alright during the day, not so much at night. I feel totally secure in the res halls, but we also have 24hr security, so I really don't know how I'd feel if I didn't have that... My guess is that you'd probably be fine and if you're looking to live near the school, that's as close as you can get.

Thanks Soggun. The building I'm looking at is surrounded by a fence and has is manned 24hr/day at the entry booth.

 

[psych]

AAHHHHH Ok so I live in CA & I'm trying to find an apt from here (it is just waaaayyy too expensive to fly back & look at places @ the moment). Anyway, I'm having a really tough time. I'm looking in Bay Ridge, Sunset Park, Bensonhurst... Is any1 else oos & trying to find an apt? I'm married, have two dogs, and I'm afraid we're going to be homeless in August

 

[hcrunner82]

Hey all, question for any current Suny-Downstate students. Do any of you know anything about the "Flatbush gardens apartments"? My little sis is starting at Suny Downstate and considering living there since she says it is really cheap and close to the campus.

Being the overprotective older brother I would just like to know what some current students think about the place. I interviewd at Downstate when I was applying to med school and remember the area being pretty dangerous but I've heard it has improved greatly in the past few years. Any info is greatly appreciated.

 

[jappeach]

Hi everyone-- Question-- I am already BLS certified but I got it last year so it expires in 1 year. Do you know if I would have to renew it for admissions or would they be okay with mine?

 

[TedtotheD]

Anyone have experience living in Brookyln Heights? Particularly near the 2,3, the commute looks easy.

 

[Soggun]

First off, I just wanted to let you all know that PRIME (which will have the primary forum used to communicate between incoming student and us [the orientation coordinators], as well as information regarding what forms you've sent in, etc.) will apparently be up and running within the next 2 weeks or so. When it is set up, you will be sent e-mail regarding how to access it.

As far as specific responses go:

TedtotheD: Several of my classmates who are moving off campus for this coming year are living in Prospect Heights, so I think you're right about the commute being relatively easy. I'm very, very far from bein an expert on these issues, but from what I hear, Prospect Heights is a nice middle-ground for those who don't want to pay quite as much to live in Park Slope.

jappeach: I'd imagine this would be fine (though you will have to recertify next summer once it expires), but just to be on the safe side I'd call the admissions office and ask Ilana Levine.

hcrunner82: I wish I could give you better feedback, but I honeslty have never heard of those apartments. If it's close to campus though, she would have the shuttle available any time, day or night to take her door-to-door though. It's a very simple process to call them (run by the campus police) and they are extremely helpful.

 

[WoodyInvincible]

What's your people's opinion on living in Kensington just a couple blocks south of Prospect Park? Do any students live there and how nice is the area?

 

[Ali B]

hcrunner82: The Flatbush Garden Apartments have a lot of reviews on apartmentratings.com... people on there seem to say mixed things

 

[Dr Roboto]

Thanks to all the upperclassmen for the awesome info. Looking forward to orientation!

I have a question but I don't want to ask the admissions office because it's really just a case of curiosity. What's "MS1 MSQ" on the long checklist of admissions requirements?

 

[Soggun]

Thanks to all the upperclassmen for the awesome info. Looking forward to orientation!

I have a question but I don't want to ask the admissions office because it's really just a case of curiosity. What's "MS1 MSQ" on the long checklist of admissions requirements?

The MSQ is the Matriculating Student Questionnaire put out by the AAMC. It's basically just an online survey that everyone matriculating into participating med school has to fill out about the application process, their eventual decision, etc. You should get used to filling stuff like this out - at DS we have to fill out an anonymous online questionnaire after each block to get our grades (the feedback allows them to make changes for future classes - and they really do listen quite a bit, so it works out nicely).

 

[Dr Roboto]

The MSQ is the Matriculating Student Questionnaire put out by the AAMC. It's basically just an online survey that everyone matriculating into participating med school has to fill out about the application process, their eventual decision, etc. You should get used to filling stuff like this out - at DS we have to fill out an anonymous online questionnaire after each block to get our grades (the feedback allows them to make changes for future classes - and they really do listen quite a bit, so it works out nicely).

Thanks for the answer! Do we fill it out during orientation? I want to make sure I don't miss any deadlines because I haven't received any info on it.

But then again, maybe I should chill out.

 

[Soggun]

Thanks for the answer! Do we fill it out during orientation? I want to make sure I don't miss any deadlines because I haven't received any info on it.

But then again, maybe I should chill out.

Haha... Yeah I mean if there's one thing I think DS is great about it's telling you about what you need to know about when you need to know about it. It's tough though for all us type-As who want to know things ages in advance... In any case, the info on the MSQ is here: http://www.aamc.org/data/msq/start.htm According to that, it will be available to be filled out starting on Tuesday (July 1st).

 

[neuro2011]

Hi everyone,

I will be starting next week as a Neurology resident at Downstate. I just rented a house with a Pediatrics resident who is also starting, and we are looking for a roommate.

The place is a 3-bedroom house that is available starting the first week of August. It is located in a very quiet residential area in Brooklyn between Bergen Beach and Mill Basin, about a 15 minute drive from Downstate. You would have your choice of bedrooms, either the medium-sized ($935/mo) or the small bedroom ($900/mo). Laundry is included, along with parking (there is a garage, driveway, and plenty of street parking). Water is included; we are responsible for gas and electric. Appliances are brand new. There is also a balcony and backyard.

I've posted pictures at http://www.flickr.com/photos/28177499@N08/
If you are interested, please e-mail me at shimadzu03 at hotmail dot com.
Thanks!

-Claude

 

[Dr Roboto]

I'm hearing tons of people getting stethoscopes for med school. Is it really necessary this early? I have the most bootleg and primitive stethoscope from being an EMT. Will it suffice for med school, until rotations start at least.

On the same note, what about PDAs or smartphones? Do I have to get one for Downstate? Seems like everyone on SDN is getting one and loading it with Epocrates and Netter's flash cards. No one told me I would need a sugar momma for med school.

 

[frogboyy]

I'm hearing tons of people getting stethoscopes for med school. Is it really necessary this early? I have the most bootleg and primitive stethoscope from being an EMT. Will it suffice for med school, until rotations start at least.

On the same note, what about PDAs or smartphones? Do I have to get one for Downstate? Seems like everyone on SDN is getting one and loading it with Epocrates and Netter's flash cards. No one told me I would need a sugar momma for med school.

They have a stethoscope fair, during orientation/soon after school starts but if you already have a decent one, then you probably don't have to bother with it since they're kind of expensive. Also, we only used them once officially first year, although I occasionally draped mine around my neck to make me look more official when i went to my PCP (primary care preceptorship)

Once you know the brands they offer at the stethoscope fair, it might actually be worthwhile to purchase from amazon.com since the prices are probably going to be cheaper there.

With regards to PDAs, I thought I would need one too so I bought one...and hardly ever used it. programs like Epocrates etc are probably only really useful for rotations, and Netter's paper flashcards will do you just as well when reviewing on the subway, and are more likely to be sold second-hand el cheapo by us incoming second years (and you won't cry as much if it's jacked from you on the subway...unless it's the day before an anatomy midterm j/k )

I have to say, the one thing I DID like was having mobile powerpoint along, which made it easier to scroll through the lecturer's powerpoints in transit, but again...I didn't do that very often anyway, so I guess it's a question of personal preference. It's by no means essential (perhaps for 3rd and 4th year, but I haven't even thought about crossing that bridge yet!)

 

[Jess8000]

hey gang,

I'm going to be coming to DS with very little on me to begin with...

Pens, paper, laptop, money for tuition, housing and healthcare. Maybe a cell phone-- the cheapest available.

Is there really much more I should look into getting between now and Orientation?

Any opinions are appreciated Thanks very much!

 

[lobita]

Hi there,
I am moving to the Downstate area with boyfriend and child in tow.
The daycare at the Medical Center has a waitlist and is kind of dreary (in the basement) anyhow.
Anyone else looking for daycare in the area? I have looked at about six places, none particularly satisfactory. I know there are better options for the 2+ crowd, but for under two it is slim. I don't really want to look in Park Slope...

 

[Soggun]

Hi there,
I am moving to the Downstate area with boyfriend and child in tow.
The daycare at the Medical Center has a waitlist and is kind of dreary (in the basement) anyhow.
Anyone else looking for daycare in the area? I have looked at about six places, none particularly satisfactory. I know there are better options for the 2+ crowd, but for under two it is slim. I don't really want to look in Park Slope...

Hey, so I don't know of anywhere personally, but during an orientation meeting the other day I overheard one of the girls who works at the student center talking about how she had found a great place near where she lives (though I'm not sure where that is). In any case, a good person to contact would be the asst. vice president of student life, Meg O'Sullivan. I know that she knows a great many people who have had young children here over the past few years and can probably point you in the right direction.

Assuming you're an accepted student you should have already gotten mailings from us (the orientation coordinators) which I believe has Meg's contact information on it... If not just call or e-mail one of us and we can point you Meg's way.

 

[dinosims]

Is there a way to get access to PRIME without having an id yet? I just got accepted off of the waitlist, and have a week to decide between DS and Penn State, and I just wanted to see what everyone was talking about over there.

 

[Dr Roboto]

They have a stethoscope fair, during orientation/soon after school starts but if you already have a decent one, then you probably don't have to bother with it since they're kind of expensive. Also, we only used them once officially first year, although I occasionally draped mine around my neck to make me look more official when i went to my PCP (primary care preceptorship)

Once you know the brands they offer at the stethoscope fair, it might actually be worthwhile to purchase from amazon.com since the prices are probably going to be cheaper there.

With regards to PDAs, I thought I would need one too so I bought one...and hardly ever used it. programs like Epocrates etc are probably only really useful for rotations, and Netter's paper flashcards will do you just as well when reviewing on the subway, and are more likely to be sold second-hand el cheapo by us incoming second years (and you won't cry as much if it's jacked from you on the subway...unless it's the day before an anatomy midterm j/k )

I have to say, the one thing I DID like was having mobile powerpoint along, which made it easier to scroll through the lecturer's powerpoints in transit, but again...I didn't do that very often anyway, so I guess it's a question of personal preference. It's by no means essential (perhaps for 3rd and 4th year, but I haven't even thought about crossing that bridge yet!)

Thanks for the insight!

Is there a way to get access to PRIME without having an id yet? I just got accepted off of the waitlist, and have a week to decide between DS and Penn State, and I just wanted to see what everyone was talking about over there.

The ID is just [firstname].[lastname] with your AMCAS ID as your password. Last I check the board was quiet.

 

[the champ]

The ID is just [firstname].[lastname] with your AMCAS ID as your password. Last I check the board was quiet.

So, this hasn't worked for me. Am I the only one for whom this doesn't work?

 

[Soggun]

So, this hasn't worked for me. Am I the only one for whom this doesn't work?

The information Dr Roboto provided about how to login is correct. The only reason it wouldn't work is if you were not yet accepted (i.e. on the waitlist) or if you simply haven't been added to the system yet for whatever reason. If it's the first, your lack of access is intentional and you should probably just wait, but if its the second, I would contact the admissions office and ask about it.

 

[the champ]

Haha, I have indeed been accepted... The admissions office directed me to someone's voicemail, so perhaps I'll try them again soon.

 

[Jess8000]

hey gang,

I'm going to be coming to DS with very little on me to begin with...

Pens, paper, laptop, money for tuition, housing and healthcare. Maybe a cell phone-- the cheapest available.

Is there really much more I should look into getting between now and Orientation?

Any opinions are appreciated Thanks very much!

Anything ?

 

[Soggun]

Anything ?

I'm sure there are more but I have a few suggestions:

1) a fan (if you are living the res halls)... there is no AC and it can get HOT
2) binders... you will be getting hundreds of pages of 3 hole punched notes at the beginning of every block and having binds is a good way to organize things
3) TV... some folks are ok without it and see it as a distraction, but it's definitely something I need to relax
4) something else to occupy your time (i.e. instruments, sports equipment, books, etc.)... you definitely need to do things outside of schoolwork to maintain your sanity and keep you a well-balanced individual. don't give up your hobbies just because you're starting med school.

 

[Jess8000]

I'm sure there are more but I have a few suggestions:

1) a fan (if you are living the res halls)... there is no AC and it can get HOT
2) binders... you will be getting hundreds of pages of 3 hole punched notes at the beginning of every block and having binds is a good way to organize things
3) TV... some folks are ok without it and see it as a distraction, but it's definitely something I need to relax
4) something else to occupy your time (i.e. instruments, sports equipment, books, etc.)... you definitely need to do things outside of schoolwork to maintain your sanity and keep you a well-balanced individual. don't give up your hobbies just because you're starting med school.

Thanks Soggun. Few other quickies...

Do the res halls have microwaves?

Does every room have a TV?

Is there a ultimate screen anywhere in the Student Centre where students can congregate and watch a movie or something? You know, 52-in Plasma with HDMI input and a Blu-Ray player. Last time I looked, there was a pretty nice one mounted on a wall in one of the rooms...

Thanks again for sharing your thoughts.

 

[Soggun]

Thanks Soggun. Few other quickies...

Do the res halls have microwaves?

Does every room have a TV?

Is there a ultimate screen anywhere in the Student Centre where students can congregate and watch a movie or something? You know, 52-in Plasma with HDMI input and a Blu-Ray player. Last time I looked, there was a pretty nice one mounted on a wall in one of the rooms...

Thanks again for sharing your thoughts.

The res halls do have microwaves - in your room if you have a kitchen or down the hall if you don't, but no rooms have TVs, you'd have to bring those. TV service is included though (along with all other utilities).

They do, however, have communal TVs (large screen) in the lobbies of each of the res halls, as well as one or two in the student center. I'm not sure what capabilities there are for blu-ray, etc., but I do know that the student center has movie nights once or twice a month, so there's got to be some way to do it.

 

[Jess8000]

Thanks Soggun. I'm glad that microwaves are included (sort of).

I was kind of joking about the Blu-Ray capability and stuff, although it would be pretty neat . Thanks for commenting!

The res halls do have microwaves - in your room if you have a kitchen or down the hall if you don't, but no rooms have TVs, you'd have to bring those. TV service is included though (along with all other utilities).

They do, however, have communal TVs (large screen) in the lobbies of each of the res halls, as well as one or two in the student center. I'm not sure what capabilities there are for blu-ray, etc., but I do know that the student center has movie nights once or twice a month, so there's got to be some way to do it.

 

[Robin007]

Hey, does anyone need a microscope for histology? I am a DS alum (currently a resident) and I have one that I'd like to get rid of. Please let me know if you are interested.

As far as dorming goes, that is what I did (but I am a NYer so I didn't have the in/out state tuition issue). It can get kind of depressing, but it is definitely convenient not to have to walk to and from the train station in the awful neighborhood in which DS is located. Crime and safety are definitely issues to deal with at DS.

In my opinion, if you drive and plan on having a car, then it is probably best to live off campus.

 

[Soggun]

Hey, does anyone need a microscope for histology? I am a DS alum (currently a resident) and I have one that I'd like to get rid of. Please let me know if you are interested.

As far as dorming goes, that is what I did (but I am a NYer so I didn't have the in/out state tuition issue). It can get kind of depressing, but it is definitely convenient not to have to walk to and from the train station in the awful neighborhood in which DS is located. Crime and safety are definitely issues to deal with at DS.

In my opinion, if you drive and plan on having a car, then it is probably best to live off campus.

I just want everyone to be clear about this (as I assume this is what is meant by the above post)... Crime and safety are issues to deal with in the area around DS (though the use of the 24/7 shuttle service is something that a lot of people don't take advantage of), but those things really are not concerns in the res hall facility (which includes the student center) or on the block the hospital is on.

It's worth noting that I was very concerned about the area before coming here and during this year I've adapted and now feel fine pretty much all the time around here... I only really notice it when I have friends visiting from out of town when they comment.

 

[OZman]

when does class start guys?

 

[Soggun]

when does class start guys?

Move-in is Sunday Aug 10th, Orientation runs from Monday Aug 11th to Thurs Aug 14th, and actual classes begin Monday Aug 18th.

 

[marylandMD]

Hi. I was accepted at Downstate off the waitlist few days ago.
I have a few questions. I don't have access to PRIME yet, so this is my place to ask I guess.
I found a place to live off campus, but my move-in date is Aug 15th.
So I need to go for moving right after Thursday's orientation.
Does anyone know how long the white coat ceremony takes or when it ends?

Also, what internet service providers do you guys use for off campus?
I tried comcast and verizon, and they both said they don't provide service for my area???
Please help.

 

[frogboyy]

Hi. I was accepted at Downstate off the waitlist few days ago.
I have a few questions. I don't have access to PRIME yet, so this is my place to ask I guess.
I found a place to live off campus, but my move-in date is Aug 15th.
So I need to go for moving right after Thursday's orientation.
Does anyone know how long the white coat ceremony takes or when it ends?

Also, what internet service providers do you guys use for off campus?
I tried comcast and verizon, and they both said they don't provide service for my area???
Please help.

Congrats! If I remember correctly the ceremony was an hour and a half, or something like that (I have the DVD lying around somewhere, I'll double check on that).


Also for off campus ISPs, try time warner road runner or RCN....you might have better luck with them, although I don't know what areas they specifically service.

 

[Dr Roboto]

Also, what internet service providers do you guys use for off campus?
I tried comcast and verizon, and they both said they don't provide service for my area???
Please help.

I recommend Optimum. Check them out also.

 

[marylandMD]

Wow! Thank you so much, frogboyy and Dr Roboto.
I'll try those.

 

[dinosims]

For most of Brooklyn, the cable provider is Time Warner, but in some areas it's Cablevision. Just go to their websites and give your address and they'll let you know which is available.

 

[Jess8000]

I'll be living in the residence and had a question for upper-year students....

Is it ever a problem having your stuff that you buy online delivered to you?

ie) You buy something from fleabay/newegg/tigerdirect/whoever.... Do you ever have complications getting the items delivered?

I shop online a bit so this would be important. Please share whatever thoughts and experiences you can. Thanks!

[Oh, I am not a shopaholic, but there's always better deals online than brick and mortar.]

 

[Ali B]

So my Dad went to Downstate about a million years ago, and he is under the impression that people are going to get dressed up for class. He said they used to wear ties to class, and thinks I will not be able to wear jeans. Is this true? Please say no!