Surgeon professional fee for various procedures

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Brahnold Bloodaxe

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I was skimming through a book called The Cost of Cutting written by a general surgeon and was surprised by some of the low ball reimbursement he cited. Apparently there are some payors that only give the surgeon 300 bucks for operations under full anesthesia and the 90(?) day follow up period.

Is this true? When you go to the dentist to get a filling, a procedure so minor as to be completely trivial, you pay at least $130-150 even in saturated large cities. For a root canal, a general dentist gets $600-800 while an endodontist makes away with a cool $1300.

To my mind, any procedure that involves general anesthesia and cutting open the body cavity or inserting tools into the same and cutting stuff up inside is an order of magnitude higher on the “serious business” scale than anything that happens under local anesthetic in a dental office. The surgeon assumes far more risk, the odds of death are quite real, and I think any reasonable person would agree that performing bona fide surgery should be reimbursed at a higher rate than mucking about in a tooth. If it's accepted as reasonable that dentists make $1000 per root canal I can't see how anyone could say it's unreasonable that a surgeon makes that much or more for much more serious procedures and their follow up care.

Anyway, this led me to wonder what the per procedure take home pay is for surgeons. The author was quoting really low figures, but obviously anyone wanting to make a point would be biased towards cherry picking data points. This will obviously vary enormously based on area of the country and the specific payor, but could anyone shed some light on what the ballpark numbers are on some of the most common procedures like bowel resections, etc?

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Of course. My question isn't a proxy to figure out how much surgeons make, I have a copy of the latest MGMA figures. I'm simply curious to see what value is currently assigned to the task of conducting a major surgery. I know how much a dentist makes to do a root canal, a mechanic charges to fix a car, and a barber to cut hair. I want to compare that to how much a surgeon makes to [insert common procedure here].
 
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I was skimming through a book called The Cost of Cutting written by a general surgeon and was surprised by some of the low ball reimbursement he cited. Apparently there are some payors that only give the surgeon 300 bucks for operations under full anesthesia and the 90(?) day follow up period.

Is this true? When you go to the dentist to get a filling, a procedure so minor as to be completely trivial, you pay at least $130-150 even in saturated large cities. For a root canal, a general dentist gets $600-800 while an endodontist makes away with a cool $1300.

To clarify what SS said using your examples, while the surgeon may only be 'making' $300 from that surgery, the dentist is not 'making' $600-800 for that root canal. The difference is net versus gross. In the examples you cite, the dentist's pay is gross from you; the surgeon's pay is net to him/her.
 
Right, I understand the point both of you are making. The dentist isn't netting $600 from a $600 root canal, but the surgeon also isn't netting $300 from a $300 operation. They both have offices they have to rent and staff they have to pay that must come out of those fees. Yes, overhead is going to differ between dentists and surgeons, but again, I'm not asking this to find out how much money surgeons earn, as that data is readily available via MGMA. I'm just curious what payors deem to be the "appropriate" payment for a bread and butter surgical procedure, and I only brought up dentists as a comparison to explain why I thought $300 cited in the book was surprisingly low.

http://www.covidien.com/imageServer.aspx/doc336873.pdf?contentID=76479&contenttype=application/pdf
Anyway, I found this interesting resource. If this is accurate, then things aren't as bleak as the book was painting them to be. Of course, I don't profess to be able to judge whether an Adrenalectomy should pay more or less than $1080 since I don't know either the time the procedure takes, the risk, or any of the other countless variables, but at least it's not as obviously unjust as $300.

The real interesting thing about this fee schedule is the Facility Fee. That seems to be where all the money is. Only select procedures in the document seem to qualify for reimbursement if done in an ASC, but those that do seem pretty lucrative compared to doing them in a hospital and only collecting the physician fee. Of course there is separate overhead for the ASC so the net pay from the Facility Fee will be nowhere close to the quoted payments, but unless Anesthesia has to be paid from the Facility Fee there should still be plenty of profit if there is enough volume. And I think Anesthesia gets reimbursed separately. This leads me to wonder, why aren't more general surgeons investing in ASCs like the Orthos do?
 
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Yeah, I never had the idea that surgery was "cheap," only that most of the money went to the hospital and only a pittance to the surgeon. And I didn't think the fact that the hospital CEO's bonus gets bigger after every operation by more than what the surgeon earns for that operation would be a comfort to most surgeons :)
 
The author is correct. The patient pays a hefty amount, but most goes to the hospital, the remainder goes to the anesthesiologist. The surgeons maybe gets whatever pennies might have been left on the ground.
 
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The real interesting thing about this fee schedule is the Facility Fee. That seems to be where all the money is.

Bingo.
Anyway, the surgeon fee is low, no doubt but cant just look at that.
The payment structure is screwed all over mostly for political reasons.
Fear not, negotiate well. Get part of that facility fee. Hospitals know what you bring in. You'll get more than your surgeons fee.
 
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OP is right. Reimbursements are shockingly low. You can do a google search - I believe you can obtain the Medicare fees through the AMA website.
 
Are surgeons paid a flat fee for call and also bill for any procedures performed during call, or just one or the other? Having to waste a weekend for a measly 2 or 3k would suck, but if you also get to bill the full professional fee for every procedure you end up doing during that call then it could quickly become a 10k gain for 2 days part time work. Which isn't bad..
 
Are surgeons paid a flat fee for call and also bill for any procedures performed during call, or just one or the other? Having to waste a weekend for a measly 2 or 3k would suck, but if you also get to bill the full professional fee for every procedure you end up doing during that call then it could quickly become a 10k gain for 2 days part time work. Which isn't bad..

Highly variable. By the way sometimes you'll have to cover a hospital in BFE that your group is trying to get more referrals from for some god awful reason and you'll spend your time posting on SDN instead of being able to do elective cases while waiting for another disaster to roll in while being paid gobs of money.
 
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Highly variable.

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I get paid to be on call plus i bill for what i do. I get anywhere between 285 to 500 routinely for an appy amd between 3 something (don't remember exactly) and 700 for a chole. Plus i bill a consult with the decision for surgery modifier and get paid for it (80 to 250 depending on the insurance) most of the time. There are some things i do (like abscesses) that i get like 70 buck for but other stuff i get thousands for. Sometimes it makes sense because of time and complexity, sometimes not. But my overhead is just 25% of what i collect (plus insurance costs) so it isn't like i lose money on anything (unless i could be doing something else for the more money at that moment)
 
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Heck i even accept 80% of medicare for some stuff (hospital pays me that for things done on call to uninsured patients). I guess i am one of those women who don't negotiate that makes the pay gap happen (and i work part time, :oops:)
If you don't negotiate, they aren't going to offer you competitive rates.

A percentage above CMS rates still sucks but not as much as 80% (and yes, some of our ACCCHS plans [essentially Medicaid] want to offer that; I just refuse to accept those).
 
If you don't negotiate, they aren't going to offer you competitive rates.

A percentage above CMS rates still sucks but not as much as 80% (and yes, some of our ACCCHS plans [essentially Medicaid] want to offer that; I just refuse to accept those).
My private insurers are all above medicare rates at least. But yeah, i even accept straight medicaid. I consider it sort of like non deductible charitable giving. I make way more money than i need to live well and retire early if i want so it doesn't bother me too much.
 
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I was skimming through a book called The Cost of Cutting written by a general surgeon and was surprised by some of the low ball reimbursement he cited. Apparently there are some payors that only give the surgeon 300 bucks for operations under full anesthesia and the 90(?) day follow up period.

Is this true? When you go to the dentist to get a filling, a procedure so minor as to be completely trivial, you pay at least $130-150 even in saturated large cities. For a root canal, a general dentist gets $600-800 while an endodontist makes away with a cool $1300.

To my mind, any procedure that involves general anesthesia and cutting open the body cavity or inserting tools into the same and cutting stuff up inside is an order of magnitude higher on the “serious business” scale than anything that happens under local anesthetic in a dental office. The surgeon assumes far more risk, the odds of death are quite real, and I think any reasonable person would agree that performing bona fide surgery should be reimbursed at a higher rate than mucking about in a tooth. If it's accepted as reasonable that dentists make $1000 per root canal I can't see how anyone could say it's unreasonable that a surgeon makes that much or more for much more serious procedures and their follow up care.

Anyway, this led me to wonder what the per procedure take home pay is for surgeons. The author was quoting really low figures, but obviously anyone wanting to make a point would be biased towards cherry picking data points. This will obviously vary enormously based on area of the country and the specific payor, but could anyone shed some light on what the ballpark numbers are on some of the most common procedures like bowel resections, etc?
IF surgeons didnt think it was fair they would not accept it.
 
IF surgeons didnt think it was fair they would not accept it.
That's a myth if I ever heard one. We have little leverage and negotiate what we can, but we often have our hands tied and have to take it because it's better than the alternative of operating on stuffed animals
 
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Kind of a related question: what is the trend these days with private practice vs hospital employment? Do you guys predict that hospital employment will become the norm for general surgery and its sub-specialties by the time today's med students finish a surgical residency?
 
Kind of a related question: what is the trend these days with private practice vs hospital employment? Do you guys predict that hospital employment will become the norm for general surgery and its sub-specialties by the time today's med students finish a surgical residency?
It's already the norm if you believe the data from the American College of surgeons. The rate of private practice surgeons has fallen from greater than 50% to a minority in the last few years.


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Depends on location. Here in Austin, ~75% of surgeons (all specialties, including trauma) are in private practice. Employed surgeons work for groups owned by just the two hospital systems and U. of Texas-Dell Medical School.
 
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Depends on location. Here in Austin, ~75% of surgeons (all specialties, including trauma) are in private practice. Employed surgeons work for groups owned by just the two hospital systems and U. of Texas-Dell Medical School.
Of course.

PHX is a heavily private practice town as well but again, nationwide, at least according to ACS, most are employed.
 
I would suggest the that the majority of Austin area (and Texas) surgeons come from Texas residency programs that have historically emphasized and supported private practice. I would expect more future surgeons, though, to seek employment given the realities of healthcare changes, and the attitudes and needs of Millennials.
 
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I would suggest the that the majority of Austin area (and Texas) surgeons come from Texas residency programs that have historically emphasized and supported private practice. I would expect more future surgeons, though, to seek employment given the realities of healthcare changes, and the attitudes and needs of Millennials.

What is this obsession with older folk and "millennials"
 
I was skimming through a book called The Cost of Cutting written by a general surgeon and was surprised by some of the low ball reimbursement he cited. Apparently there are some payors that only give the surgeon 300 bucks for operations under full anesthesia and the 90(?) day follow up period.

Is this true? When you go to the dentist to get a filling, a procedure so minor as to be completely trivial, you pay at least $130-150 even in saturated large cities. For a root canal, a general dentist gets $600-800 while an endodontist makes away with a cool $1300.

To my mind, any procedure that involves general anesthesia and cutting open the body cavity or inserting tools into the same and cutting stuff up inside is an order of magnitude higher on the “serious business” scale than anything that happens under local anesthetic in a dental office. The surgeon assumes far more risk, the odds of death are quite real, and I think any reasonable person would agree that performing bona fide surgery should be reimbursed at a higher rate than mucking about in a tooth. If it's accepted as reasonable that dentists make $1000 per root canal I can't see how anyone could say it's unreasonable that a surgeon makes that much or more for much more serious procedures and their follow up care.

Anyway, this led me to wonder what the per procedure take home pay is for surgeons. The author was quoting really low figures, but obviously anyone wanting to make a point would be biased towards cherry picking data points. This will obviously vary enormously based on area of the country and the specific payor, but could anyone shed some light on what the ballpark numbers are on some of the most common procedures like bowel resections, etc?

The average endodontist makes more than the average general surgeon. I know this from multiple colleagues/family members who are in both of those fields. You'll learn that what you make doesn't necessarily equate how hard you work. If you want the best bang for your effort try to get into derm.
 

This is an important topic, so I’ll throw my two cents in. Warning, it’s a long post. The monetary amounts listed below may or may not be completely made up.


A good place to start is with the CMS 1500 form (https://www.cms.gov/Medicare/CMS-Forms/CMS-Forms/Downloads/CMS1500.pdf). This is your “bill”. All major payer’s (Medicare, Medicaid, Blue Cross, Aetna, etc) use this for for filing claims. You provide the same information whether filing electronically or by paper. There’s a lot of identifying information but the key parts with respect to your bill are the ICD 10 diagnosis codes, CPT codes and place of service. Your CPT code and place of service are what determine how much you are paid by the payer. Google is great for looking up ICD 10 codes and CPT codes.


Before we get to that we need to define fees better. When you provide a service you need to figure out what your fee for that service will be. To make it a little more complicated you will typically have a different fee depending on whether you are performing that service in the office or another facility like a hospital. This is so you can include the overhead of your office as a higher fee for services performed there. When you consider the list of all services that you provide you end up with a fee schedule which is just a simple map of CPT codes and fees that you’ve established for those codes. To simplify the process of creating a fee schedule many people, including various payers (insurance companies) will scale fees and allowables based on Medicare rates. You might scale your fees at 250% of Medicare. Allowables are the contracted, aka “in network”, reimbursement rates for various CPT codes. If you have signed a contract with a payer then regardless of what your fee is you are only allowed to collect the allowable amount. You cannot balance bill or bill the patient for difference between your fee and the allowable.


Here is an interesting fact that not many people know. Let’s create a scenario that is not too far fetched. Assume you’ve recently graduated from residency. You’re brave and have decided you want to start a private practice. You’re licensed by the state and on your way to board eligibility. Furthermore you’ve decided that you want to make a living off of ER call while you build a cash based practice like a vein clinic or bariatrics. As such you do not need to sign any contracts with third party payers including Medicare/Medicaid. You’ve been granted privileges at a few hospitals and you are placed on the call schedule. You may or may not get paid for call. You’ve set your fee schedule at 250% of Medicare. Since you are getting all your patients through the ER you basically see three types of patients with respect to finances: no insurance, private insurance and Medicare/Medicaid. Because you have signed no contracts with any payer including Medicare you might think you can bill whatever you want but surprisingly this is not true for Medicare/Medicaid patients. For patients with no insurance and private insurance you can bill whatever you want. Whatever insurance does not pay you can balance bill the patient; however, Medicare is different. Despite the fact that you have signed no agreement with CMS you can only charge a maximum of 115% of 95% of the Medicare allowable (https://www.medicare.gov/your-medicare-costs/part-a-costs/assignment/costs-and-assignment.html). This doesn’t seem like it should be legal but apparently it is. I am not advocating for gouging Medicare and Medicaid patients but on principle this rule isn’t right and I would love to see a challenge to it. Now let me get off my soapbox and get back to fees.



Let’s use an example to see how all this might work. Assume a patient is seen elsewhere, diagnosed with chronic cholecystitis and shows up at your office with workup in hand. I typically bill the CPT code 99203 (new outpatient visit, low complexity) and place of service 11 (office). I am in network with their insurance. My fee is 269.55. The Medicare allowable in my area is 107.82. BCBS is 111.44. United is 117.8. Cigna is 120.84. I then take them to surgery and perform an uncomplicated laparoscopic cholecystectomy (CPT code 47562, POS 22 outpatient hospital). My fee is 1650.58. Allowables are Medicare (660.23), BCBS (816.75), United (855.28) and Cigna (901.27). This brings my total fee for this patient to 1920.13 but the allowables would be 768.05, 928.19, 973.08 and 1022.11, respectively. Once insurance has paid I collect from the patient the difference between the allowable and how much has already been paid. My fee is irrelevant. My fee would only be relevant for non Medicare out of network patients and no insurance patients. The fee/allowable for surgery includes all routine postoperative clinic visits for a period of 90 days after major procedures, 10 days after minor procedures and 0 days for some other procedures. Medicare/Medicaid carries this further and drops the word routine. Some third party payers will allow you to bill for postop visits to manage complications (e.g wound infection). Medicare will not.


It’s important to understand how the fee for service model works because it is what underlies your compensation as an attending. There is talk about value based payment models but this will probably apply more to internists than proceduralists. Endodontists, dermatologists, whatever are all subject to the laws of supply and demand. If you are in a saturated market or have a terrible reputation you will not bring in enough revenue. Your specialty will not matter. You are not going to make these high incomes that everybody keeps bringing up. Well, maybe someone will be willing to take a loss and pay you these high salaries initially on the hopes that you will get busy enough or feed their other revenue streams so they can profit from you in the future but there will be a limit to how much they are willing to lose.


A good rule of thumb, around here at least, for general surgery is to estimate that you will bring in $1000 per case. This includes all the nonoperative patients you may have billed in between operative patients. So the critical question to ask is how much volume do I need to provide a certain income. Here are some reasonable numbers:

  • 325k/yr income and benefits (27k/mo)

  • 7k/mo for two medical assistants, includes paycheck and benefits

  • 500/mo for EMR

  • 500/mo for medical waste removal

  • 6k/mo for rent

  • 300/mo for telephone and internet
This brings you to about 41.3k/mo total. You would need to a little over 41 cases per month to break even. Most of the surveys I’ve seen have general surgeons doing about 33 cases per month. As you can see it can be tough to make an MGMA median salary. As per procedure reimbursement rates fail to keep up with overhead inflation the situation will only get worse. This is the main reason why people are looking for employed positions, even people who have been in private practice for years. An employer has access to revenue sources other than your professional fees: facility fees, ancillary services, in network referrals, etc. They can allow you to operate at a loss if you only looked at the professional fees that you brought in because you are making them money through these other revenue streams. Many of these employers will pay you a salary plus production based on work RVU or a straight dollar per work RVU. Each CPT code has a work RVU associated with it. The example I used above, clinic visit followed by laparoscopic cholecystectomy, has a total work RVU of 11.89. Dollar per work RVU will vary and needs to be negotiated. I have seen $40 to $50 per work RVU. This is typically your take home pay. The employer covers overhead. There are all sorts of ways to complicate this arrangement. Multiprovider groups with shared overhead is one such way.


Private practice will go extinct.


PS Someone said that allowables are set where they are because surgeons are happy with that. Nothing could be further from the truth. The average provider starting a practice has no negotiating power in setting the allowables. If you want any sort of elective practice that provides real healthcare for the population you have no choice but to accept the allowables.
 
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This is an important topic, so I’ll throw my two cents in. Warning, it’s a long post. The monetary amounts listed below may or may not be completely made up.

Great post! Thank you for your perspective.

For young students out there, though, I need to point out that the sky is not falling. You will certainly never starve as a surgeon unless you make bad decisions (clinical and business).
 
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Great post! Thank you for your perspective.

For young students out there, though, I need to point out that the sky is not falling. You will certainly never starve as a surgeon unless you make bad decisions (clinical and business).
The biggest reason I see for struggle is divorce (especially more than one)
 
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dpmd said:
The biggest reason I see for struggle is divorce (especially more than one)

Winged Scapula said:
Agreed - the surgeons I still see working at age 70 and up are those whom have been married multiple times and paid for it dearly.

Gents, don't listen to these gals. Any self-respecting Heavy is on at least his 3rd divorce and delinquent on alimony for each of them. But they're right about the part of you working past age 70, fueled by regret and resentment that half the time you're in the O.R. or on call is going to your exes. You will feed off that hate to make you a better surgeon, and only then will you understand why almost every middle age male surgeon has that thousand yard stare.
 
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Private practice will go extinct.

PS Someone said that allowables are set where they are because surgeons are happy with that. Nothing could be further from the truth. The average provider starting a practice has no negotiating power in setting the allowables. If you want any sort of elective practice that provides real healthcare for the population you have no choice but to accept the allowables.

Thanks for your very informative post. With regards to the part that I left in the quote here, what dictates these allowables? If surgeons have no negotiating power, what exactly determines that the "average" per procedure allowable is $1000 rather than $100? What is stopping the third party payers, whether they be the government or the insurance companies, from saying you will take the hundred bucks and like it?

In other words, when would we reach a point where surgeons as a collective whole said screw it, we're not taking your measly "reimbursement" and anyone who wants surgery is gonna have to pay cash for it. Surely such a point would eventually arise. If Medicare went insane tomorrow and set a flat fee of $1 for every operation and the insurance companies followed suit with "120%" of medicare the third party payer system would end overnight. Obviously that's a ludicrous example, but the point is that there is only so low rates can go before the system ends. That point is obviously higher than $1, probably higher than $100 or even $300. So I guess the question is, are we at that point already, and is that why insurance and the gov. have not cut rates even further? If so, then that is a comforting thought, since it implies that compensation can't fall much more. If not, then I would be very curious to hear from you guys whether you think that point is close to, or much lower than, where we are today?
 
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Thanks for your very informative post. With regards to the part that I left in the quote here, what dictates these allowables? If surgeons have no negotiating power, what exactly determines that the "average" per procedure allowable is $1000 rather than $100? What is stopping the third party payers, whether they be the government or the insurance companies, from saying you will take the hundred bucks and like it?

In other words, when would we reach a point where surgeons as a collective whole said screw it, we're not taking your measly "reimbursement" and anyone who wants surgery is gonna have to pay cash for it. Surely such a point would eventually arise. If Medicare went insane tomorrow and set a flat fee of $1 for every operation and the insurance companies followed suit with "120%" of medicare the third party payer system would end overnight. Obviously that's a ludicrous example, but the point is that there is only so low rates can go before the system ends. That point is obviously higher than $1, probably higher than $100 or even $300. So I guess the question is, are we at that point already, and is that why insurance and the gov. have not cut rates even further? If so, then that is a comforting thought, since it implies that compensation can't fall much more. If not, then I would be very curious to hear from you guys whether you think that point is close to, or much lower than, where we are today?

we are already at that point. that's why private practice isn't viable, at least in certain parts of the country.
 
Thanks for your very informative post. With regards to the part that I left in the quote here, what dictates these allowables? If surgeons have no negotiating power, what exactly determines that the "average" per procedure allowable is $1000 rather than $100? What is stopping the third party payers, whether they be the government or the insurance companies, from saying you will take the hundred bucks and like it?

In other words, when would we reach a point where surgeons as a collective whole said screw it, we're not taking your measly "reimbursement" and anyone who wants surgery is gonna have to pay cash for it. Surely such a point would eventually arise. If Medicare went insane tomorrow and set a flat fee of $1 for every operation and the insurance companies followed suit with "120%" of medicare the third party payer system would end overnight. Obviously that's a ludicrous example, but the point is that there is only so low rates can go before the system ends. That point is obviously higher than $1, probably higher than $100 or even $300. So I guess the question is, are we at that point already, and is that why insurance and the gov. have not cut rates even further? If so, then that is a comforting thought, since it implies that compensation can't fall much more. If not, then I would be very curious to hear from you guys whether you think that point is close to, or much lower than, where we are today?

I have been out of training for a little under 3 years. My elective practice is a little over a year old. I am still learning. It goes without saying that teaching students and residents about the business (and politics) of medicine is not a priority in med school or residency. I do not know all the mechanics of establishing allowables. There does appear to be some political will to at least consider the ability of physicians to keep their practices open in the face of declining reimbursements. Congress acted multiple times to hold the SGR cut at bay and finally passed an SGR "fix". However, this fix locks in a growth rate in reimbursements that is less than inflation (effectively a pay cut over time) and withholds a portion from physicians who do not satisfy regulatory initiatives like Meaningful Use and Physician Quality Reporting System. If you would like to see what happens when there is political will to put doctors in their place check out what is going on in the UK right now. Junior doctors have been striking over some new policies.

When I was talking about surgeons not having negotiating power I was specifically talking about a surgeon opening a new practice. You have to negotiate from a position of strength. A new surgeon without a referral base has no power. All you can threaten them with is a high out of network fee for ER patients but there is a limit to how far you can go with this. Most people find being on ER call everyday unpleasant and you will be sabotaging your effort to build a reputation in the community if you are angering patients with excessive fees to make up for low case volume. Also, you will see 0 referrals from PCP’s while you are out of network. One way to get started is to join an Independent Physician Association. This entity allows you to effectively benefit from collective bargaining without running afoul of antitrust laws. Private practice physicians cannot collude. I joined an IPA. You pay a monthly fee and they help you get contracted with the payers in your area with supposedly a better set of allowables than you would get if you did so on your own. They can also sometimes help with building referral bases but mine has been unhelpful in this regard.

As an aside, with the rise of physician employment I think it is only a matter of time before we see a physician union.

Established surgeons have the ability to negotiate, especially if they are busy enough to legitimately threaten to terminate a contract. I do not know anybody who has negotiated with payers for higher allowables. I have a plan to do so around the 2017 timeframe which is when my hospital is tentatively planning to start a level 3 trauma center. My argument will be give me better allowables or my partners who will be sharing call with me and do not have elective practices are going bill you high out of network fees. Give us what we want and they will bill you under my tax ID with in network contracts. My ER patient population is 10% unfunded, 30% Medicare/Medicaid and 60% private insurance.

Lest you think I am a private practice surgeon, I am technically employed by a large trauma surgery group but since I have an elective practice centered at my main hospital on top of taking trauma call at 2 other hospitals I am left alone and operate for the most part as a single provider private practice with my own office and staff. I can call on my trauma partners to cover for me when I want to leave town. It’s a nice setup and I am paid much higher than the MGMA median...for now. I suppose I could stand back on my heals and not worry about being profitable or busy but I know that is unsustainable and most importantly boring. I work hard: I have been on ER call everyday for 2 months--by choice. I do not use midlevels or hospitalists. Fortunately, I enjoy what I do and seem to be succeeding at building a practice with a rural feel in a major metropolitan area.

PS Check out the Surgery Center of Oklahoma. They run a purely self pay general surgery practice. Last time I checked they had some really cheap prices on routine procedures. I don't know where they fall with respect to quality and profitability. Must be nice though not to have to worry about CMS regulations.
 
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The following timely post is from Dr. Byers Shaw from the FACS forum. I am including it here with his permission. He includes his father's fee schedule from 1985.

I grew up in a farm town in south-central Ohio. I worked many summers on local farms. I came to know farmers as mostly honest, mostly hard working, and mostly frustrated men. They lived at the bottom of the chain within a huge industry. Everyone between them and the consumer was making far more money without nearly the risk, without a fraction of the hard physical labor, and with a great deal more greed. Sometimes they'd strike, usually when some dude from the National Farmers Organization came around. But strikes never worked. Almost no farmer is going to leave his field untended, his grain rotten in bins, his unsold hogs eating him out of house and home. Inevitably, a grain elevator operator would offer one guy a damn good deal, he'd take it, and suddenly everyone else scrambled not to be the last to jump ship.

It reminds me of us, at least in the way that we are so totally dedicated to caring for people who need our help that we are unlikely, as a group, to take the drastic step of striking, even if we are, like the farmer, the most vulnerable players in what is otherwise a HUGELY profitable industry. I'm not practicing anymore, but I'm watching the way the various administrations take greater and greater advantage of my colleagues, while denigrating them in very public ways when they deign to protest. It's bad enough they are complicit with every other part of the industry in making physician fees the target of cost cutting, that they ask physicians to compromise their care, and their conscience by doing things primarily intended to increase margins, but they also force them to do what amounts to clerical drudgery using software that no professional in any other industry would agree to use.

With that rant as introduction, I have attached a document showing my father's surgery fees in 1985. Compare the absolute dollar amounts with the fees you collect today for the same procedures, keeping in mind that he pretty much got paid 100% of these fees back then. For reference, use this http://www.in2013dollars.com/1985-in-2016-dollars?amount=100 (there are other sites, as well) to calculate the equivalent dollars and you'll see that $100 in 1985 = about $225 in 2016. (I don't think my dad's fees went up much from 1980 to 1985, and the 2016 equivalent of $100 in 1980 is $308.) The CPI rose 130% from 1985 to 2015. The electrician I hired yesterday got $60 for 15 minutes work, which I think is maybe more than 130% rise.

What other highly educated professional is being compensated today less than half what doing the same thing 25 years ago would have earned? Is anyone getting paid 2.3 times as much in absolute dollars today as my father got paid for the same thing in 1985?
 

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It seems to me that as much as any group in medicine, the surgeons could wield considerable power if they ever had the brass to just say no to continuous cutbacks in compensation. The "doc fix" game that until recently was played annually was a hollow threat because it was a line in the sand which, if crossed, had significant and dire implications. Why not adjust the line a bit so that compensation goes up and not down? It's not like Verizon going on strike where supervisors can fill in. Most physicians are a precious resource in short supply and they, not a hospital corporation or the government, should dictate terms.
 
What other highly educated professional is being compensated today less than half what doing the same thing 25 years ago would have earned? Is anyone getting paid 2.3 times as much in absolute dollars today as my father got paid for the same thing in 1985?

One of my greatest flaws is a streak of objectivity.

It is interesting to note the price for a patient visits. If you compare those numbers with today, it is about a 3x increase. So obviously you are focusing on the reimbursement for the surgical procedures. However, the question to ask is, how much of a time commitment was involved for the procedure 30 years ago as opposed to today? For example, take the cholecystectomy: How long did the procedure itself take 30 years ago vs today? How much post-hospital care was involved? (Even if not bundled, it still would be a relatively small reimbursement compared with the procedures.) So there are other factors involved which make it more difficult to make a straight comparison.
 
One of my greatest flaws is a streak of objectivity.

It is interesting to note the price for a patient visits. If you compare those numbers with today, it is about a 3x increase. So obviously you are focusing on the reimbursement for the surgical procedures. However, the question to ask is, how much of a time commitment was involved for the procedure 30 years ago as opposed to today? For example, take the cholecystectomy: How long did the procedure itself take 30 years ago vs today? How much post-hospital care was involved? (Even if not bundled, it still would be a relatively small reimbursement compared with the procedures.) So there are other factors involved which make it more difficult to make a straight comparison.

I don't understand the point you are trying to make. If it is that a surgeon spends less time today performing a procedure and taking care of patients postoperatively and therefore a smaller reimbursement is justified then I disagree. Acute appendicitis, acute cholecystitis and abdominal wall hernias are now outpatient procedures in my practice. That is the result of surgeon technique and technological improvements that in my opinion save the system money not to mention contribute to higher patient satisfaction. Surgeons should be compensated for a portion of those savings. It makes no sense to me that an open cholecystectomy or open hernia repair should be reimbursed higher that the laparoscopic equivalent but they are, especially when you consider MIS techniques are often more difficult and time consuming for the surgeon. If the payer wants to account for the higher cost of technology (lap, robot, mesh, etc) then take it out of the facility fees not the surgeon fees.

The following graph is frequently circulated and sheds light on where healthcare dollars are really going.
https://fee-misc.s3.amazonaws.com/files/imglib/20150429_growthinadministratorsopt.jpg
 
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This is an important topic, so I’ll throw my two cents in. Warning, it’s a long post. The monetary amounts listed below may or may not be completely made up.


A good place to start is with the CMS 1500 form (https://www.cms.gov/Medicare/CMS-Forms/CMS-Forms/Downloads/CMS1500.pdf). This is your “bill”. All major payer’s (Medicare, Medicaid, Blue Cross, Aetna, etc) use this for for filing claims. You provide the same information whether filing electronically or by paper. There’s a lot of identifying information but the key parts with respect to your bill are the ICD 10 diagnosis codes, CPT codes and place of service. Your CPT code and place of service are what determine how much you are paid by the payer. Google is great for looking up ICD 10 codes and CPT codes.


Before we get to that we need to define fees better. When you provide a service you need to figure out what your fee for that service will be. To make it a little more complicated you will typically have a different fee depending on whether you are performing that service in the office or another facility like a hospital. This is so you can include the overhead of your office as a higher fee for services performed there. When you consider the list of all services that you provide you end up with a fee schedule which is just a simple map of CPT codes and fees that you’ve established for those codes. To simplify the process of creating a fee schedule many people, including various payers (insurance companies) will scale fees and allowables based on Medicare rates. You might scale your fees at 250% of Medicare. Allowables are the contracted, aka “in network”, reimbursement rates for various CPT codes. If you have signed a contract with a payer then regardless of what your fee is you are only allowed to collect the allowable amount. You cannot balance bill or bill the patient for difference between your fee and the allowable.


Here is an interesting fact that not many people know. Let’s create a scenario that is not too far fetched. Assume you’ve recently graduated from residency. You’re brave and have decided you want to start a private practice. You’re licensed by the state and on your way to board eligibility. Furthermore you’ve decided that you want to make a living off of ER call while you build a cash based practice like a vein clinic or bariatrics. As such you do not need to sign any contracts with third party payers including Medicare/Medicaid. You’ve been granted privileges at a few hospitals and you are placed on the call schedule. You may or may not get paid for call. You’ve set your fee schedule at 250% of Medicare. Since you are getting all your patients through the ER you basically see three types of patients with respect to finances: no insurance, private insurance and Medicare/Medicaid. Because you have signed no contracts with any payer including Medicare you might think you can bill whatever you want but surprisingly this is not true for Medicare/Medicaid patients. For patients with no insurance and private insurance you can bill whatever you want. Whatever insurance does not pay you can balance bill the patient; however, Medicare is different. Despite the fact that you have signed no agreement with CMS you can only charge a maximum of 115% of 95% of the Medicare allowable (Lower costs with assignment | Medicare.gov). This doesn’t seem like it should be legal but apparently it is. I am not advocating for gouging Medicare and Medicaid patients but on principle this rule isn’t right and I would love to see a challenge to it. Now let me get off my soapbox and get back to fees.



Let’s use an example to see how all this might work. Assume a patient is seen elsewhere, diagnosed with chronic cholecystitis and shows up at your office with workup in hand. I typically bill the CPT code 99203 (new outpatient visit, low complexity) and place of service 11 (office). I am in network with their insurance. My fee is 269.55. The Medicare allowable in my area is 107.82. BCBS is 111.44. United is 117.8. Cigna is 120.84. I then take them to surgery and perform an uncomplicated laparoscopic cholecystectomy (CPT code 47562, POS 22 outpatient hospital). My fee is 1650.58. Allowables are Medicare (660.23), BCBS (816.75), United (855.28) and Cigna (901.27). This brings my total fee for this patient to 1920.13 but the allowables would be 768.05, 928.19, 973.08 and 1022.11, respectively. Once insurance has paid I collect from the patient the difference between the allowable and how much has already been paid. My fee is irrelevant. My fee would only be relevant for non Medicare out of network patients and no insurance patients. The fee/allowable for surgery includes all routine postoperative clinic visits for a period of 90 days after major procedures, 10 days after minor procedures and 0 days for some other procedures. Medicare/Medicaid carries this further and drops the word routine. Some third party payers will allow you to bill for postop visits to manage complications (e.g wound infection). Medicare will not.


It’s important to understand how the fee for service model works because it is what underlies your compensation as an attending. There is talk about value based payment models but this will probably apply more to internists than proceduralists. Endodontists, dermatologists, whatever are all subject to the laws of supply and demand. If you are in a saturated market or have a terrible reputation you will not bring in enough revenue. Your specialty will not matter. You are not going to make these high incomes that everybody keeps bringing up. Well, maybe someone will be willing to take a loss and pay you these high salaries initially on the hopes that you will get busy enough or feed their other revenue streams so they can profit from you in the future but there will be a limit to how much they are willing to lose.


A good rule of thumb, around here at least, for general surgery is to estimate that you will bring in $1000 per case. This includes all the nonoperative patients you may have billed in between operative patients. So the critical question to ask is how much volume do I need to provide a certain income. Here are some reasonable numbers:

  • 325k/yr income and benefits (27k/mo)

  • 7k/mo for two medical assistants, includes paycheck and benefits

  • 500/mo for EMR

  • 500/mo for medical waste removal

  • 6k/mo for rent

  • 300/mo for telephone and internet
This brings you to about 41.3k/mo total. You would need to a little over 41 cases per month to break even. Most of the surveys I’ve seen have general surgeons doing about 33 cases per month. As you can see it can be tough to make an MGMA median salary. As per procedure reimbursement rates fail to keep up with overhead inflation the situation will only get worse. This is the main reason why people are looking for employed positions, even people who have been in private practice for years. An employer has access to revenue sources other than your professional fees: facility fees, ancillary services, in network referrals, etc. They can allow you to operate at a loss if you only looked at the professional fees that you brought in because you are making them money through these other revenue streams. Many of these employers will pay you a salary plus production based on work RVU or a straight dollar per work RVU. Each CPT code has a work RVU associated with it. The example I used above, clinic visit followed by laparoscopic cholecystectomy, has a total work RVU of 11.89. Dollar per work RVU will vary and needs to be negotiated. I have seen $40 to $50 per work RVU. This is typically your take home pay. The employer covers overhead. There are all sorts of ways to complicate this arrangement. Multiprovider groups with shared overhead is one such way.


Private practice will go extinct.


PS Someone said that allowables are set where they are because surgeons are happy with that. Nothing could be further from the truth. The average provider starting a practice has no negotiating power in setting the allowables. If you want any sort of elective practice that provides real healthcare for the population you have no choice but to accept the allowables.

So if you have a private practice surgical center can you not charge facility fees at your center and as a result recoup significantly more per patient?
 
So if you have a private practice surgical center can you not charge facility fees at your center and as a result recoup significantly more per patient?

Yes. You can receive distributions from a surgery center based on the amount you have invested but not on the number of cases that you do there. For more information google the following terms:
anti-kickback statute
safe harbor rules
investing in an ambulatory surgery center

For a cautionary tale about doing so, google "forest park fraud". Some of those surgeons are probably going to jail.

A surgery center investment can be a very good investment. Around here they return over 25% of your initial investment per year.
 
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Yes. You can receive distributions from a surgery center based on the amount you have invested but not on the number of cases that you do there. For more information google the following terms:
anti-kickback statute
safe harbor rules
investing in an ambulatory surgery center

For a cautionary tale about doing so, google "forest park fraud". Some of those surgeons are probably going to jail.

A surgery center investment can be a very good investment. Around here they return over 25% of your initial investment per year.

So you're saying in 4 years you would have recouped your total investment? Impressive.

Also, I'm reading about the forest park fraud, and my question is, what is the proper designation for referrals? Like if you are a PCP and you can refer your patients anywhere, what makes any institution/surgeon better than another? Obviously in this case they were wrong for paying people, but what about if they have PCP investors in their business? Or maybe not the PCPs but a close friend or relative? Seems like a deep rabbit hole to dive into.
 
So you're saying in 4 years you would have recouped your total investment? Impressive.

Also, I'm reading about the forest park fraud, and my question is, what is the proper designation for referrals? Like if you are a PCP and you can refer your patients anywhere, what makes any institution/surgeon better than another? Obviously in this case they were wrong for paying people, but what about if they have PCP investors in their business? Or maybe not the PCPs but a close friend or relative? Seems like a deep rabbit hole to dive into.

Your question regarding what makes any institution/surgeon better than another is why independent surgeons needs to market themselves and maintain relationships with the PCP's in the community.

You need to read up on safe harbor rules. They prevent non-proceduralists from investing in a surgery center. Plus as an investor who brings cases to the ASC you don't want another investor who is diluting shares and not bringing cases.
 
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Your question regarding what makes any institution/surgeon better than another is why independent surgeons needs to market themselves and maintain relationships with the PCP's in the community.

You need to read up on safe harbor rules. They prevent non-proceduralists from investing in a surgery center. Plus as an investor who brings cases to the ASC you don't want another investor who is diluting shares and not bringing cases.

So what is the nature of those relationships if one is an independent surgeon? Would it be advantageous to work at least part-time at an institution in order to meet other physicians who could, if you prove yourself an exemplary clinician, refer you patients?

If you move from out-of-state, how would a physician build that network? I assume if you went to school in the area, are from the area etc it would be much easier.

What I read on this website, the law only prohibits immediate family members, so cousins, in-laws, medical school classmates, etc are all fair-game it seems.

Also, based on my reading the safe harbors are based on practicing at least 1/3 in an ACS. As a result, the most financially efficient way for a physician to practice, assuming all-else equal would be to be equally invested in 3 separate ACSs and divide practice time among those 3, right? Since the passive-income stream from facilities fees charged while they are not operating would be maximized in that situation.
 
All of you be glad you live in states without CON.
I have been at my new job for a couple years. Hospital is fighting against a surgery center. So therefore all the politicians refuse to grant a CON for an ASC. And results are more and more payers refuse to let patients have surgery with me. They make patients go to surgeons that work at an ASC, even though it's an hour to the nearest one. the hospital keeps raking in huge profits with astronomical facility fees. I was somewhat aware of the situation but wish I had considered it more before moving here.
 
So what is the nature of those relationships if one is an independent surgeon? Would it be advantageous to work at least part-time at an institution in order to meet other physicians who could, if you prove yourself an exemplary clinician, refer you patients?

If you move from out-of-state, how would a physician build that network? I assume if you went to school in the area, are from the area etc it would be much easier.

What I read on this website, the law only prohibits immediate family members, so cousins, in-laws, medical school classmates, etc are all fair-game it seems.

Also, based on my reading the safe harbors are based on practicing at least 1/3 in an ACS. As a result, the most financially efficient way for a physician to practice, assuming all-else equal would be to be equally invested in 3 separate ACSs and divide practice time among those 3, right? Since the passive-income stream from facilities fees charged while they are not operating would be maximized in that situation.

You can build relationships by visiting PCPs, giving talks, office sharing (must pay fair market value to avoid kick back violation), attending mixers, etc. I can't envision a part time position at an institution being financially successful in any way.

It might seem like good financial sense to diversify and invest in more than 1 ASC but in reality it is generally best to focus your efforts on just 1 and have like minded co-investors. These make the most money for everyone involved. Also, many ASC's have non compete clauses to encourage investors to bring all of their eligible cases to just that facility.

All of you be glad you live in states without CON.
I have been at my new job for a couple years. Hospital is fighting against a surgery center. So therefore all the politicians refuse to grant a CON for an ASC. And results are more and more payers refuse to let patients have surgery with me. They make patients go to surgeons that work at an ASC, even though it's an hour to the nearest one. the hospital keeps raking in huge profits with astronomical facility fees. I was somewhat aware of the situation but wish I had considered it more before moving here.

This is a very good point and not one they teach you in residency. There may be a lot of legitimate criticisms to living in Texas but an unfriendly practice environment isn't one of them. Most of the surgeons in my community are still able to make a traditional private practice work. If you are not employed by the hospital I would start taking cases to the other hospitals in the area. This sort of tactic worked for me. If you are employed I would look closely at your contract and talk with the other surgeons and GI on staff to see what kind of pressure you can put on the hospital. A hospital affiliated ASC can work for everybody. It might also be worth visiting with your state representative.
 
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You can build relationships by visiting PCPs, giving talks, office sharing (must pay fair market value to avoid kick back violation), attending mixers, etc. I can't envision a part time position at an institution being financially successful in any way.

It might seem like good financial sense to diversify and invest in more than 1 ASC but in reality it is generally best to focus your efforts on just 1 and have like minded co-investors. These make the most money for everyone involved. Also, many ASC's have non compete clauses to encourage investors to bring all of their eligible cases to just that facility.

Ok, so it sounds like sharing an office space with a large primary care group would work the best for everyone then? Even better if one or two of them are invested in the ASC so they have an increased incentive to refer. Thats not cheating I assume?

Would you mind expanding on how a single ASC vs. multiple would make the most money for all parties? And non-competes are generally localized right? So if you do fly-aways two days a week that would allow you to skip that regulation?
 
Ok, so it sounds like sharing an office space with a large primary care group would work the best for everyone then? Even better if one or two of them are invested in the ASC so they have an increased incentive to refer. Thats not cheating I assume?

Would you mind expanding on how a single ASC vs. multiple would make the most money for all parties? And non-competes are generally localized right? So if you do fly-aways two days a week that would allow you to skip that regulation?

Read the first link when googling "safe harbor one third rule", https://www.mcguirewoods.com/news-resources/publications/health_care/safe-harbor.pdf. People who do not do enough outpatient procedures cannot invest in ASCs.

You need to sit down and do the math. Assume x number of proceduralists and a set of procedures for each of varying profitability and then distribute them among a group of ASC knowing that surgeons don't like spending all day on the road and so will tend to do most of their cases at one particular ASC, usually the one closest to their office and patient population.

Noncompetes are usually measured in radial distance. Around here they cover a 10 mile radius. I don't know what a fly away is. Leaving town and finding coverage for your practice is not trivial. While we might be talking about how to make good money as a doctor you need to understand being a good doctor is the first priority. Part of being a good doctor is being committed to and available for your patients.
 
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