surgeons are rich right?

[Vvandenn]

Brilliant? You just fueled the ego.

I'm not disputing he/she writes well, but the demeanor and attitude behind his/her words is very irritating and abrasive. The sad thing is, I don't think Law2Doc is trying to be that way, it just comes naturally. See any number of Law2Doc's 5000+ posts if you have any doubt about this.

I fully agree. While many of his/her posts may be helpful, they always seem to exhibit a slight aire of arrogance. Know-it-alls get on my nerves like no other.

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[NonTradMed]

Such hatred for Law2Doc. He offers good advice and doesn't flame anyone. If you think he comes off as a know-it-all, counteroffer with better advice.

 

[DenmarkDoctor]

Such hatred for Law2Doc. He offers good advice and doesn't flame anyone. If you think he comes off as a know-it-all, counteroffer with better advice.

when "other" people have to defend that person, it shows that whatever was being said previously is "correct".

 

[RSAgator]

A few comments:
-it takes a hefty amount of money to have a secure retirement. Many docs are poorly educated about planning for retirement and have to work longer than they probably needed to if they had better financial savvy.

I would say this is only half true. I see no reason for doctors to be any less educated about planning for retirement than another professional (save obviously business-related ones). It's more the fact that a doctor usually doesn't have enough money to pump into retirement until at the very LEAST (though a very improbable situation) their residency, but more practically when they actually begin practicing. This completely negates many of the benefits of the compound interest they would have earned for those 8 odd years.

To use the numbers, assuming someone graduates at 22 and begins putting 4k a year into a retirement fund that earns 10% a year. Now say at 30 the doctor is finally making decent bones and he starts putting in 4k a year while the other guy stops contributing completely. By 55 the doctor will have $436727 in his retirement while the other guy will have about $588518. Spending the extra 8 or so years going into debt/earning zilch really goes against you when it comes to retirement, so it's not so much that doctors aren't as good at retirement planning, it's just a lot easier for everyone else.

 

[honker]

I would say this is only half true. I see no reason for doctors to be any less educated about planning for retirement than another professional (save obviously business-related ones). It's more the fact that a doctor usually doesn't have enough money to pump into retirement until at the very LEAST (though a very improbable situation) their residency, but more practically when they actually begin practicing. This completely negates many of the benefits of the compound interest they would have earned for those 8 odd years.

To use the numbers, assuming someone graduates at 22 and begins putting 4k a year into a retirement fund that earns 10% a year. Now say at 30 the doctor is finally making decent bones and he starts putting in 4k a year while the other guy stops contributing completely. By 55 the doctor will have $436727 in his retirement while the other guy will have about $588518. Spending the extra 8 or so years going into debt/earning zilch really goes against you when it comes to retirement, so it's not so much that doctors aren't as good at retirement planning, it's just a lot easier for everyone else.

I agree that docs start out behind, but their income potential is much higher than most professions, which would negate your example, since they should be able to save much higher amounts of money towards retirement. My financial planner works only with physicians, and he is replete with stories of free spending docs with expensive tastes who are earning 300k+ per year, but have very little to show for their efforts due to lack of vision towards saving for retirement. They end up coming to him at age 55 with very little saved up for their retirement years. It's a sad story which is played way too often.

 

[honker]

Elaborate a bit, if you dont mind.

Many docs suffer from delayed gratification syndrome. They go through years of financial deprivation knowing that someday, they will get their just rewards from being a physician. Once the money starts to come in, they try to make up for the lost years, often at a breakneck pace. They buy lots of things quickly, and don't put enough away for retirement during that time. Believe it or not, a lot of well-paid docs live paycheck to paycheck despite earning north of 300k per year.
A surgeon in the building in which I have an office bought two Porsches and a BMW within 2 years of starting practice. I doubt that he paid cash for the vehicles, which would retail for at least $225,000. It makes no sense, but it happens.

 

[NonTradMed]

when "other" people have to defend that person, it shows that whatever was being said previously is "correct".

Or I merely felt the complaint is unwarranted. If I felt the opinion expressed on this forum about Law2Doc was correct, I'd hardly feel the need to 'correct' anyone.

 

[Jiminy Cricket]

I was looking at profiles of neurosurgeons at some random hospital on the
internet and I noticed that some doctors have been in practice since early 1970's.

ok so if they have been making around $300,000 a year since 1970's,
they should have made way over $10 million by now.

why are they still in practice with that much money?
shouldn't they have retired already or started their own "non-medical
business" and made much more money?

just wondering what y'all think
as a surgeon making a lot of money, would you retire as early as possible or
stay in practice until you can't possible work anymore?

depends on the number of divorces they've had....one = 5 mill...two = 2.5....lol....oh wait, even less...didnt add in legal fees and health problems...lol.

lets just say that surgeons arent going to be the one's buying luxury yachts in the mediteranean.

but its an awesome service and your patients will be grateful

 

[CTSballer11]

Your run of the mill plastic surgeon in Beverly Hills is probably making 200K pre-tax if I had to guess (since it's a highly saturated market and you have to have an excellent rep in an area like that to be bringin in the really big bucks.)

The sole neurosurgeon serving Bumfcuk Memorial Hospital and the surrounding 12 counties is probably pulling in a million a year (pre-tax, pre-malpractice insurance...which will come out to maybe 500K after all is said and done.)

But where the REALLY big money is...orthodontists.

That's right. Dental School.

I know of one who shares office space with three pediatricians. The four docs throw all these parties for the kids and the pediatricians send all the kids to this orthodontist when the time is right.

Her grand total? 3 million a year. No joke.

So true.

My mother works for a general dentist that does cosmetics and he brings home 1mil a year.

 

[Pinkertinkle]

He offers good advice and doesn't flame anyone. If you think he comes off as a know-it-all, counteroffer with better advice.

Argue with a lawyer? That's like mud wrestling with a pig.

 

[Orthodoc40]

Yeah, well-reasoned posts piss me off too.

Are any of you over 30?
What's your definition of "I'm not young"?

 

[DrJen]

Ok, so now I'm dying to know. Law2Doc, are you a he or a she???

also, i knew u didnt wanna get a benz... i could tell that ur much more into BMWs

I'd feel pretty stupid driving around in a BMW while some of my patients struggle to pay their co-pays. I'm not going to feel guilty for having money, but I don't want to go rubbing it in either.

 

[BeatrixKiddo]

I wanna be a cowboy, baby.

 

[CTSballer11]

Ok, so now I'm dying to know. Law2Doc, are you a he or a she???



I'd feel pretty stupid driving around in a BMW while some of my patients struggle to pay their co-pays. I'm not going to feel guilty for having money, but I don't want to go rubbing it in either.

I know what you mean. That is why I plan on driving around in a 911 porsche.

 

[Ross434]

I know what you mean. That is why I plan on driving around in a 911 porsche.

Hell yeah, screenname's not baller for nothing

 

[dron000]

i think law2doc is cool. but he is probably wrong on many things.

 

[45408]

I'd feel pretty stupid driving around in a BMW while some of my patients struggle to pay their co-pays. I'm not going to feel guilty for having money, but I don't want to go rubbing it in either.

I'll just park my Lambo in the back to avoid rubbing it in. I will have worked hard to get where I'm going, and I won't hide the rewards of what I've got (but no, I won't flaunt it, that would be stupid).

 

[DenmarkDoctor]

I know what you mean. That is why I plan on driving around in a 911 porsche.

OH yeah! The turbo.

 

[DoctorPardi]

I'll just park my Lambo in the back to avoid rubbing it in. I will have worked hard to get where I'm going, and I won't hide the rewards of what I've got (but no, I won't flaunt it, that would be stupid).

I plan on getting a parking space right in the front of the building with a big sign that says "DOCTOR PARDI PARKING ONLY" and it is going to have a helicopter and two pilots waiting to fly me home.

Actually, I'll probably go the route which has the nicest car with the best gas mileage. I looked at a mercedes bens mpg the other day and it was like 18miles/gallon. I mean I could afford that as a surgeon, but that is bad for the environment and just wasteful. I could probably get one of those small hummers with comparable gas mileage. My main concern isn't the cost of the gas, because as I said, I could afford it, but rather that I shouldn't pollute any more than I have too.

 

[khjb007]

　
http://youtube.com/watch?v=f-y-tgeqibq

 

[MarzMD]

I thought Law2Doc was a male and already in medical school. Anyway, Im not sure why people are flaming him. Like many others have stated, he/she gives good advice. You people should listen to him.

 

[DenmarkDoctor]

I thought Law2Doc was a male and already in medical school. Anyway, Im not sure why people are flaming him. Like many others have stated, he/she gives good advice. You people should listen to him.

Law is a girl and already in med school. Hope this helps.

 

[Law2Doc]

Law is a girl and already in med school. Hope this helps.

Dude, several folks (alwaysangel, reck1ess) on here pegged you as a reincarnation of one of the repeat trolls back on 10/13 in your initial posts in other threads, based partially on the fact that, like your prior persona, you like to call guys gals and vice versa. Give it a rest already. - and take my name out of your banner.

 

[khjb007]

　

 

[Miami_med]

Surgeons are not rich as a whole. They work long hours and get payed a good (albeit declining) rate for their work. The average surgeon makes ~$250,000/year. This doesn't include the 10 years of post college training, the enormous taxes on $250,000/year or the payment on student debts.

Also, rich doesn't equal high income. I've known rich people with low income and high income people who owe more than they make. Wealth is a measure of income accumulation over time and the ability to maintain a lifestyle without additional work if desired.

 

[Mr. McDuck]

I'm getting a Jeep Liberty. I'm renting one while my car has surgery, and I friggin love it.

 

[_ian]

Surgeons are not rich as a whole. They work long hours and get payed a good (albeit declining) rate for their work. The average surgeon makes ~$250,000/year. This doesn't include the 10 years of post college training, the enormous taxes on $250,000/year or the payment on student debts.

With intelligent spending and investment habits, that is very rich, aside from select areas in the United States.

I have a feeling I'll be the only doctor with a used car in the lot. I really don't give a crap about cars, and they're an awful investment, so I'll put my money towards better things.

 

[etf]

With intelligent spending and investment habits, that is very rich, aside from select areas in the United States.

I have a feeling I'll be the only doctor with a used car in the lot. I really don't give a crap about cars, and they're an awful investment, so I'll put my money towards better things.

cars aren't an investment, in the same way your (primary) house is not an investment, and neither are the shoes you wear on your feet. the reason i'm going to have a nice car is because i like nice cars - if i didn't, i wouldn't want one, because i would rather spend money on things that i like. anyway, as for surgeons being rich - yes they are rich, in that most of them are making an income within the top 1% of all earners. but wealth is defined by how much of that you keep - if you're making $350k but spending $1M, you'll never be "wealthy." i think the best thing to do is cultivate good money habits now, so that when you finally do have it, you won't be clueless.

 

[Law2Doc]

but wealth is defined by how much of that you keep - if you're making $350k but spending $1M, you'll never be "wealthy." i think the best thing to do is cultivate good money habits now, so that when you finally do have it, you won't be clueless.

This is a good idea, but too few folks seem to have the discipline to implement this, and many on the board do not seem content to live within their means. It means you will be driving a buick when you have enough money in the bank to lease a porsche, or live in a one bedroom apartment when you probably can afford a two bedroom. And so on. Pretty soon you have a hefty mortgage, and family expenses. It balloons quite quickly. Then the unexpected things happen -- things you didn't budget for. And there you are, making a nice income and broke. And you don't even have to be living as large as MC Hammer to blow through the kind of money you earn as a doctor.

 

[anon-y-mouse]

I haven't read this thread, but stop hating on L2D! He's a med student, knows quite a lot, and tells it like it is. That being said, I know medicine is going to make me lots of money

 

[kingtz]

Surgeons are not rich as a whole. They work long hours and get payed a good (albeit declining) rate for their work. The average surgeon makes ~$250,000/year. This doesn't include the 10 years of post college training, the enormous taxes on $250,000/year or the payment on student debts.

Also, rich doesn't equal high income. I've known rich people with low income and high income people who owe more than they make. Wealth is a measure of income accumulation over time and the ability to maintain a lifestyle without additional work if desired.

While I don't necessarily agree with your first statement about surgeons being "not rich as a whole" - because to me, that is still a LOT of money - I agree with your statement about poor financial management. A person who's horrible with personal finance - regardless of whether he makes $30,000/yr or $300,000/yr - will always find himself in debt. Without continually finding effective methods of tax deduction (i.e. donations, charity, side business, etc), the $250,000+ tax bracket will pretty much rob you blind. And a nasty divorce won't help either. I honestly have half a mind to never get married. Unless I can find some way to hide/secure all of my assest before I get married...

 

[Mr. McDuck]

With intelligent spending and investment habits, that is very rich, aside from select areas in the United States.

I have a feeling I'll be the only doctor with a used car in the lot. I really don't give a crap about cars, and they're an awful investment, so I'll put my money towards better things.

You and me both, my friend. I don't plan on buying a brand-spanking-new car. A used one will suit me just fine, so long as I feel comfortable in it.

 

[khjb007]

　

 

[khjb007]

　

 

[Pinkertinkle]

Also, rich doesn't equal high income. I've known rich people with low income and high income people who owe more than they make. Wealth is a measure of income accumulation over time and the ability to maintain a lifestyle without additional work if desired.

Almost any reasonably able person can become a millionaire if they're frugal enough to buy nothing beyond bare necessities and save every penny. Would I call them rich? No. Just cheap.

 

[khjb007]

　

 

[gujuDoc]

but what if your parents pay for your everything? you would owe a lot of money to your parents but you can start paying them back as they retire!

Camry's are pretty safe if you get the proper safety measures installed like dual airbags and side air bags etc.

My family has had a camry for years I don't think it is as unsafe as you make it sound. Our measly camry's have done better then the lexuses that others have owned.

i would venture to guess that there were other reasons your mom didn't get as injured as the other person.

 

[gujuDoc]

and dumb

Or maybe they are smart enough to realize they don't need a fancy car and fancy house to be happy.

 

[Mr. McDuck]

expensive cars are directly related to safety.
(inexpensive cars are NEVER safe lol)

now I'm not talking about sports cars but still most exensive sports cars are built WAY tougher than most cheap cars in the street.

my mom was driving a 2000 model mercedes-benz S class 430 when she had
a head on collision on highway probably at speed of 50mph
(it was not her fault by the way)

she only suffered from minor neck injury but the other driver got seriously injured and he was immediately taken to a nearby hospital. he was driving a toyota camry, "not-so-safe-car."

I would definitely get an expensive and safe car once I become a doctor and start making some money. I don't want to get killed in an accident just because I was driving a ****ty car. Like etf said, cars aren't an investment but good cars can protect you and save your life in case of accident.

That's not always true. I had a '98 Saturn from like 2001 until 2005. It only cost me 6 or 7 grand, but I was parked at a house when a car crashed into the driver's side at a good 35 mph. There wasn't even a dent in the door--just a bit of white stuff and a scratch. Meanwhile, the other car had a broken headlight and some damage.

That thing was a tank.

 

[Mr. McDuck]

and dumb

Dumb is spending your money on things that don't really matter to you just to impress other people.

 

[khjb007]

　

 

[khjb007]

　

 

[Kardizzle]

Camry's are pretty safe if you get the proper safety measures installed like dual airbags and side air bags etc.

My family has had a camry for years I don't think it is as unsafe as you make it sound. Our measly camry's have done better then the lexuses that others have owned.

i would venture to guess that there were other reasons your mom didn't get as injured as the other person.

Camry is made by Toyota which also makes Lexus. The Lexus ES and the Camry are almost identical cars, if you exclude the luxury features. So it doesn't make sense that your Camry is safer than other Lexuses.

 

[Miami_med]

but what if your parents pay for your everything? you would owe a lot of money to your parents but you can start paying them back as they retire!

Why is this relavent to the income of a surgeon? If you are saying that it is easier than taking loans, that is probably true (as long as you continue to get along with your parents). However, most of us in medical school (I am an MS2) do not come from such a position as to have our parents finance our educations.

 

[khjb007]

　

 

[gostudy]

Well I know 2 orthopedic surgeons (married) who claim they are still paying off their medical.

Paying off loans well into your 40s is not such a big deal, and in many cases is very smart. There is a good chance these docs consolidated at a low interest rate and are now paying the loans off in a 30 year period. Paying off loans is just the cost of doing business. You have to spend money to make money, and in general doctors still continue to make lots of it.

 

[gujuDoc]

OH yeah! The turbo.

I don't think porsche's are all that any more. They've lost a lot of their exclusivity. I mean there was a time like with Ferrari and Lamborghinis that you hardly saw a porsche unless you were in some the wealthiest of the wealthiest areas. now a days I can't tell you how many carreras and boxters I see riding around town. Sometimes 2-3 a day. That's made it lose its appeal. Not that I would buy one but still.

 

[gujuDoc]

Why is this relavent to the income of a surgeon? If you are saying that it is easier than taking loans, that is probably true (as long as you continue to get along with your parents). However, most of us in medical school (I am an MS2) do not come from such a position as to have our parents finance our educations.

He's suggesting that he'll be debt free since it won't be him but his mummy and daddy that pay for his medical education. That's true in a lot of desi families.

 

[gujuDoc]

buying an expensive car that's a lot safer than cheap cars is not showing off
luxury cars are luxury and they are safe and they are expensive for a reason.

if you think a '98 Saturn is safe, drive it as long as you want
I hope you don't get in a high speed accident lol

Oh there is no contest between a foreign car and an american car. the foreign car wins hands down. I'd never buy an American car.

 

[Pinkertinkle]

Paying off loans well into your 40s is not such a big deal, and in many cases is very smart. There is a good chance these docs consolidated at a low interest rate and are now paying the loans off in a 30 year period. Paying off loans is just the cost of doing business. You have to spend money to make money, and in general doctors still continue to make lots of it.

Correct! If rates are consolidated below 5%, it is very easy to beat that yield, sometimes by A LOT, in a variety of investment vehicles. No point paying off your 5% interest loan when your money is in an 8% yield REIT.