surgery and being female and "too nice"

[nightowl]

I've decided that I really want to do general surgery, but I'm told all the time that I'm "too nice" to do surgery. people always peg me as pediatrics and I'm worried that I'm going to get overlooked and get mediocre recs bc I smile a lot and don't fit the personality of the typical general surgeon. Any advice on this? I'm wondering if I should quit smiling so much/ develop more sarcasm for the sake of appearances...

anyone else deal with this? how do you overcome it? thanks!

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[Winged Scapula]

I was told the same thing over and over and still am. Most people hold the stereotypical attitude that all surgeons are *******s; I know I did before I went to medical school and found that *******s are in every field, every department.

Do not change who you are simply to satisfy someone else's idea of what a surgeon should or shouldn't be.

Turns out I'm not as nice as most people think. Not sure if I've always been that way or if residency did it to me.

 

[elee20]

I've decided that I really want to do general surgery, but I'm told all the time that I'm "too nice" to do surgery. people always peg me as pediatrics and I'm worried that I'm going to get overlooked and get mediocre recs bc I smile a lot and don't fit the personality of the typical general surgeon. Any advice on this? I'm wondering if I should quit smiling so much/ develop more sarcasm for the sake of appearances...

anyone else deal with this? how do you overcome it? thanks!

I'm male and I have also been told this by several attendings. "I'm too nice" and "I communicate to well with my patients and attendings to be a surgeon". One of the attendings did add that if I brought the same attitude to surgery that I'd be a dam good one, so thats what I plan on doing. Like winged scapula said don't change your personality to fit the sterotype. It's who you are.
Although I am nice, I can also be aggressive and an ******e when I need to be.

 

[SocialistMD]

... I'm told all the time that I'm "too nice" to do surgery.

Who tells you this? People in surgery? I've never heard another surgeon say, "that person is too nice for surgery," and that is the only population's opinion on the matter you should consider other than your own.

 

[mules05]

I've decided that I really want to do general surgery, but I'm told all the time that I'm "too nice" to do surgery. people always peg me as pediatrics and I'm worried that I'm going to get overlooked and get mediocre recs bc I smile a lot and don't fit the personality of the typical general surgeon. Any advice on this? I'm wondering if I should quit smiling so much/ develop more sarcasm for the sake of appearances...

anyone else deal with this? how do you overcome it? thanks!

I was told this as well...people who don't know me well seem surprised to find out I'm going into surgery. I was told, more specifically, that since I tend to come off as very sweet and soft-spoken I may have trouble commanding attention in the OR or a trauma bay. I've found, however, that in these situations, if I raise my voice slightly and give direction clearly, people listen- perhaps more so than they listen to people who talk this way all the time, since when my voice is raised, they know something is up. I think what it comes down to is that other people's impressions of you shouldn't make a career decision. What should matter, though, is whether you feel you'll be able to handle things and enjoy yourself in a given field.

 

[Danbo1957]

Turns out I'm not as nice as most people think. Not sure if I've always been that way or if residency did it to me.

I'm going to say... residency.

 

[sponch]

don't worry. intern year will strip away all that "niceness".

 

[Winged Scapula]

I'm going to say... residency.

Heh...you're probably right, although "attending-hood" isn't making it any better.

Who tells you this? People in surgery? I've never heard another surgeon say, "that person is too nice for surgery," and that is the only population's opinion on the matter you should consider other than your own.

Good point.

I've never had another surgeon tell me I was too nice. Probably because they recognize the wide variety of personalities and behavioral patterns in the field. Its those with a warped stereotype or some unfortunate experiences who always assume that nice people can't be surgeons.

I have to say that during some tough times in my life my surgeon friends came through much more quickly and sensitively than even my psychiatry and FM friends.

 

[tussy]

I used to get told this all the time as well. Ignore them!

When i was a fellow I used to take junior resident call to make some extra cash. One day some Emerg doc says to me "you're too nice to be a general surgery resident; i guess you must be new and they haven't had a chance to turn you into a bitch yet". The "bitch" came out after that comment!!!

It really sucks that people think that "nice people" can't do surgery. If I get cancer I would hope that my surgeon is "nice".

 

[nightowl]

I used to get told this all the time as well. Ignore them!

When i was a fellow I used to take junior resident call to make some extra cash. One day some Emerg doc says to me "you're too nice to be a general surgery resident; i guess you must be new and they haven't had a chance to turn you into a bitch yet". The "bitch" came out after that comment!!!

It really sucks that people think that "nice people" can't do surgery. If I get cancer I would hope that my surgeon is "nice".

I know, right? It seems to me that if you are dealing with patients with cancer, critically ill patients and their families, and the train-wreck situations you experience in surgery, it really helps to be sensitive and a "nice" person to deal with those situations. I've watched many doctors deliver bad news, and surgery is one field where you have to be comfortable with those highly emotional situations. I hope I don't get so beat down that I forget how important that is...

And that is true that I've never heard this from surgery people- only from people choosing other specialties, and it often follows comments about having no life, etc.

 

[Pir8DeacDoc]

While I'm not a female, I agree with everyone else. You can certainly be nice and be a surgeon, you just can't let people run you over. I'm pleasant almost all the time, but I take BS from no one (except my attendings, of course).


If you are nice most all of the time, people stand up and listen when you cause a stink and get loud/short with them. I can tell you that if I tell the nursing staff that something is completely unacceptable, they take me seriously.

Good luck, don't let someone talk you out of you field of choice based on some silly stereotype they are perpetuating.

 

[SpineKing]

There is one other thing that no one has mentioned yet and that is if you are a jerk by nature the O.R. staff will never be as cooperative with you as they will be with someone who is basically a decent person. That means waiting longer to replace the suture that was dropped, etc. General attitude toward life has nothing to do with ability, but it has every thing to do with how you respect yourself and others as humans. A quiet, unharried demeanor often bespeaks an underlying strength. The best surgeons I have ever known never yell, they just get things done. If you say you need something now and this is something you rarely, if ever say, the staff will understand that this means stat.

 

[funshi baba]

i have been told i don't fit the profile of what a surgeon should look like.


You just wait six more yrs, i'll show you!

 

[Kiroro]

I've decided that I really want to do general surgery, but I'm told all the time that I'm "too nice" to do surgery. people always peg me as pediatrics and I'm worried that I'm going to get overlooked and get mediocre recs bc I smile a lot and don't fit the personality of the typical general surgeon. Any advice on this? I'm wondering if I should quit smiling so much/ develop more sarcasm for the sake of appearances...

anyone else deal with this? how do you overcome it? thanks!

I was told the exact same thing as you did.
It seems like many current general surgery or surgical subspeciality female residents do try to act tough partly b/c that's the better way to get things done in OR or on the floor and also partly b/c they need to fit into the "boy's club" thing.
However, I also noticed that when you act tough or in other words not nice in a way that people expect female doctors to be "nice", they also get picked on by the fellow male residents by being called as "a bitch".

It's probably better to just be yourself. Try to be more assertive during the sub-I or externships, so that they know you are reliable when it comes to completing the job but also remember to give them a new sensation of how delightful it is to have a sweet female coleague.

 

[Black Surgeon]

Yep, The American machismo mantra pervades the field of surgery. Such is inevitable and sad.

 

[njbmd]

It isn't so much that I am "nice" or not "nice". I simply demand 100% when it comes to the care of my patients. If something happens to my patients that is the result of sloppiness or laziness, then I generally will step in with what might be termed not "nice". Certainly, I don't expect anything less that what I put out there myself which is my very best.

I also don't "keep score" or compared penis size with my colleagues. It's pretty useless because I can buy any sized Johnson that I want and they are stuck with what nature gave them. In some circles, that's perceived as a weakness or being "nice". In short, being unprofessional, bragging, screaming, yelling and acting like a jerk are not part of my personality or a means to an end for me. If that makes me a bitch or a non-bitch the so be it.

I work with four partners who are all men and who are all pretty even tempered folks. Sure, the frustration level rises at times but unprofessional behavior is just not part of their make up either. My guess is that the days of surgery "gods" acting like jerks is over. Either you do your job or you are a joke.

 

[johnny_blaze]

I've decided that I really want to do general surgery, but I'm told all the time that I'm "too nice" to do surgery. people always peg me as pediatrics and I'm worried that I'm going to get overlooked and get mediocre recs bc I smile a lot and don't fit the personality of the typical general surgeon. Any advice on this? I'm wondering if I should quit smiling so much/ develop more sarcasm for the sake of appearances...

anyone else deal with this? how do you overcome it? thanks!

Blah blah blah…. “surgeons are c*nts” yada yada yada

Stereotypes are ridiculous.
I’ve met just as many physicians with ego problems.

A surgeon who can’t communicate well shouldn’t be doing the job in the first place and I really don’t believe any surgeon would say to a trainee “you’re too nice to do this job”. you can still be anal about things but if you communicate well you wont come out looking like ****.

Ignore what people say… the nicer the surgeon, the better.

 

[Wardens]

I'm not sure I get these stereotypes either. I disappointed fellow med students who thought I was 'too nice' for surgery as well. Attendings never quite said this though. Interestingly, the attendings were concerned that I was 'too intellectual' as a former philosophy major to be a surgeon. It didn't hold me back, but four interviewers this year didn't understand why a 'philosophy major' would ever want to be a surgeon. I guess all that thought will make me technically poor? I don't get it.

 

[Winged Scapula]

I'm not sure I get these stereotypes either. I disappointed fellow med students who thought I was 'too nice' for surgery as well. Attendings never quite said this though. Interestingly, the attendings were concerned that I was 'too intellectual' as a former philosophy major to be a surgeon. It didn't hold me back, but four interviewers this year didn't understand why a 'philosophy major' would ever want to be a surgeon. I guess all that thought will make me technically poor? I don't get it.

There is something in the stereotype that surgeons act, while internists think.

Obviously our actions involve some thinking but I'll bet your interviewers are concerned that you would think "too much/too long" in situations where quick action is demanded.

We had a resident once...nice guy, very sensitive and thoughtful. Trouble is he was TOO thoughtful and could not make a decision in the Trauma Bay which can be dangerous. He never made it past 3rd year with us.

 

[Wardens]

There is something in the stereotype that surgeons act, while internists think.

Obviously our actions involve some thinking but I'll bet your interviewers are concerned that you would think "too much/too long" in situations where quick action is demanded.

We had a resident once...nice guy, very sensitive and thoughtful. Trouble is he was TOO thoughtful and could not make a decision in the Trauma Bay which can be dangerous. He never made it past 3rd year with us.

Fair enough, but I think it was a mistake on their part to assume that because someone studies philosophy, they can't reason quickly. My experience suggests the opposite, perhaps why most philosophy majors go to law school. Engineering or chemistry wouldn't prepare you any better to be a surgeon. Honestly, its likely just a remnant of the arbitrary selection process whereby interviewers are looking for reasons to abandon an applicant and so stick with their biases to help them through the process.

 

[Dimoak]

Fair enough, but I think it was a mistake on their part to assume that because someone studies philosophy, they can't reason quickly. My experience suggests the opposite, perhaps why most philosophy majors go to law school. Engineering or chemistry wouldn't prepare you any better to be a surgeon. Honestly, its likely just a remnant of the arbitrary selection process whereby interviewers are looking for reasons to abandon an applicant and so stick with their biases to help them through the process.

Well, perhaps they weren't actually making that assumption, and instead just trying to throw out provocative questions or taunts to see how you'd respond?

If you are nice most all of the time, people stand up and listen when you cause a stink and get loud/short with them. I can tell you that if I tell the nursing staff that something is completely unacceptable, they take me seriously.

FWIW, I totally agree with this statement. Generally, individuals who are known to be fussy and short tempered will often just be tuned out in the "here he or she goes again" manner. But when you have someone who's known to generally be cordial, calm, and polite getting upset about something, that's when the hair on people's necks starts to stand up.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Fair enough, but I think it was a mistake on their part to assume that because someone studies philosophy, they can't reason quickly. My experience suggests the opposite, perhaps why most philosophy majors go to law school. Engineering or chemistry wouldn't prepare you any better to be a surgeon. Honestly, its likely just a remnant of the arbitrary selection process whereby interviewers are looking for reasons to abandon an applicant and so stick with their biases to help them through the process.

But my point wasn't whether or not this is a valid reason for questioning you.

You seemed confused as to why it would even be brought up and I provided you with some insight into the surgical mind which often does worry that "thinkers" do not make good surgeons.

I never said I agreed with that or that it was fair, just that I know that belief exists. You are expecting surgical or any medical faculty to be "professional" interviewers without biases; they are not. And of course residency interviews can be arbitrary...if they don't like you, you aren't getting ranked. Its as simple as that, regardless of your qualifications.

Or as Dimoak notes, it may very well be an example of the "stress" interview where they want to see how you respond when challenged.

 

[Wardens]

So where does this idea of a 'surgical mind' come from that says nice, thoughtful people shouldn't be surgeons? I'm curious because patients don't see it this way. Is there evidence that says it's so? or is it the culture? i.e. like you mentioned, WS, that surgical residency beats out the kindness and thoughtfulness.

WS, you mentioned that a 'thoughful, sensitive, nice' person didn't 'make it'. Were they not tough enough or maybe they didn't like the culture? Thoughtful medical residents have to run codes just as surgical residents do in the trauma bay. Both require quick decisions. I'm not intending to be argumentative, but your comment seems to propogate this idea that nice folks who are sensitive and thoughtful just can't cut it in surgery. I think it's this myth that forces these people away from surgery, concentrating folks who think they're tougher than other specialists and further alienating those who are kind, sensitive and thoughtful because there's so few like them in the field. I may revise my position next year after a year of surgery, but it seems from medical school and most other aspects of life that culture is a more powerful force than evidence.

 

[homealone3]

So where does this idea of a 'surgical mind' come from that says nice, thoughtful people shouldn't be surgeons?

As WS is trying to point out to you, this stereotype is more than an idea, it's a reality. Nobody is asserting that you can't become a great surgeon with the qualities you describe; just be prepared for the inertia of the status quo.

 

[Samoa]

You can't really use a code situation to judge someone's decisiveness. It's a fairly controlled, algorithmically-driven situation that even the most noodly doctors can muster the decisiveness to run.

Here's a gross oversimplification: when confronted with an unknown problem, surgeons want to know what it is in order to do something about it, or determine that there's nothing to be done. Non-surgeons want to know what it is, period; whether there's anything to be done about is an entirely separate concern.

It's not so much your personality as it is what you see and pay attention to with respect to patient care.

Also, people frequently confuse a pleasant personality with an inability to direct the work of others effectively. The two are not at all the same. I can be extremely nice on a personal level, and still have it known that I mean what I say and know what I'm doing with respect to patient care.

Some may find a nice surgeon a contradiction in terms, but that's their own prejudice talking, and not a reflection on me or my capacity to be an effective surgeon.

 

[Winged Scapula]

You're confusing the two concepts. Clearly one can be a nice person and be a great surgeon. But nice doesn't equal thoughtful or action oriented.

In the situation I described the particular resident was very nice, very bright and very thoughtful and introspective. However he was also unable to make decisions in situations where they needed to be made rapidly, was unable to take charge and command the room. These are required in surgery.

WS, you mentioned that a 'thoughful, sensitive, nice' person didn't 'make it'. Were they not tough enough or maybe they didn't like the culture?

The resident did not leave of his own accord. He attending medical school there and knew the "culture" well. The fact was that he was not decisive, confident and authoritative enough to make it as a senior resident. As Samoa notes, you can be nice but that doesn't mean that others will respect you and follow your command. The trouble is that sometimes others ASSUME that the nice resident is one to walk all over.

I cannot begin to tell you the "favors" allied staff think they will get from the nice residents. It is however, absolutely amazing to me as an attending to find that pretty much whatever I want I get. But off topic...

Thoughtful medical residents have to run codes just as surgical residents do in the trauma bay. Both require quick decisions.

Algorithmic code situations are not the same as trauma (which can also be cookbook but often has multiple issues going on as opposed to the typical medicine code). There isn't much thinking involved in running a code (except when to stop), IMHO.

I'm not intending to be argumentative, but your comment seems to propogate this idea that nice folks who are sensitive and thoughtful just can't cut it in surgery.

The comment wasn't meant to reflect my thoughts on the subject. Nor did I ever say that sensitive and thoughtful people can't cut it in surgery. All you have to do is read my comments earlier in the thread or elsewhere here to see that I don't think that way.

But it would be a farce to argue that surgeons aren't more action oriented than the more "thoughtful" or introspective internist.

I think it's this myth that forces these people away from surgery, concentrating folks who think they're tougher than other specialists and further alienating those who are kind, sensitive and thoughtful because there's so few like them in the field. I may revise my position next year after a year of surgery, but it seems from medical school and most other aspects of life that culture is a more powerful force than evidence.

Again, I'm not sure where you are getting the idea that I said the inquiries into your undergraduate degree had anything to do with fears that philosophy majors are kind and sensitive.

Would you not agree that philosophy majors:

- enjoy reading
- enjoy lengthy discussions
- are reflective?

You find these sorts of students in every field, but with those beliefs how you can blame a surgical faculty for wondering if you would be action oriented enough. The point is that when one hears that you were a philosophy major they tend to assume you embody some of the stereotypes: namely that you like to think and discuss things at length. There is of course room for that in surgical residency (and no, residency doesn't beat it out of you). But the concern is that a philosophy major may be MORE of a thinker or take too long to act.

I provided the example to show that you can be nice, bright, have good skills and ABSITE scores but if you hesitate or fail to act it may mean the end of your career.This is not about being nice but dividing the world into thinkers and doers.

So my point is not that:
nice guys can't be surgeons
thoughtful people can't be surgeons
philosophy majors can't be surgeons


I don't think I'm suggesting that everyone will react this way but I have heard this criticism aimed at students and residents more than once. Surgical residency is more than the trauma bay but your actions there and else where can color how others evaluate you.

 

[Black Surgeon]

You find these sorts of students in every field, but with those beliefs how you can blame a surgical faculty for wondering if you would be action oriented enough. The point is that when one hears that you were a philosophy major they tend to assume you embody some of the stereotypes: namely that you like to think and discuss things at length. There is of course room for that in surgical residency (and no, residency doesn't beat it out of you). But the concern is that a philosophy major may be MORE of a thinker or take too long to act.

Winged Scapula, I think the problem lies in the fact that your writing on the subject has a homogeneous and essentialist tone. Your opinion is respected, but it is just that, YOUR SUBJECTIVE OPINION. Although your individualistic thought process and judgment on factors which may be instrumental in judging an individual's ability to "act" as a surgeon may be representative of the program in which you trained, you cannot act as if it is representative of a hegemonic school of thought in surgery.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Winged Scapula, I think the problem lies in the fact that your writing on the subject has a homogeneous and essentialist tone. Your opinion is respected, but it is just that, YOUR SUBJECTIVE OPINION. Although your individualistic thought process and judgment on factors which may be instrumental in judging an individual's ability to "act" as a surgeon may be representative of the program in which you trained, you cannot act as if it is representative of a hegemonic school of thought in surgery.

You are absolutely right. We are all posting our subjective thoughts on the subject. There is no one here who has trained at every program in the country.

But I have never claimed that my experience was that of every program nor does it represent the thought of every surgeon. We are a disparate group. The OP simply inquired as to why some faculty might be interested (or worried) about his undergraduate major. I provided my insight into why that may be so.

However, my subjective experience is no less valid than yours and it is true that at least some surgeons believe and act in the manner I described. If I'm going to be respected for my position, I should also be respected for my experiences which are much broader than those posting here. They are just as real as your experiences.

 

[homealone3]

Winged Scapula, I think the problem lies in the fact that your writing on the subject has a homogeneous and essentialist tone. Your opinion is respected, but it is just that, YOUR SUBJECTIVE OPINION. Although your individualistic thought process and judgment on factors which may be instrumental in judging an individual's ability to "act" as a surgeon may be representative of the program in which you trained, you cannot act as if it is representative of a hegemonic school of thought in surgery.

I think it's fair to assume that Winged Scapula's view, having trained at a state university and now practicing, is adequately representative of the field. Although, as we all know, there are exceptions to every rule. I think that only a philosophy major (or maybe English too) would continue to stubbornly argue and harangue about generally accepted aspects/stereotypes of the field of surgery. Perhaps, this contributes to the concern about someone of that nature entering surgical training.

 

[maxheadroom]

I'll simply give my second to Winged Scapula's comments. As with most of her posts, she is quite correct. I have seen a couple of unsuccessful surgical residents (read "got fired") throughout my training and the common problem for all of them was an inability to quickly assess a patient and make a decision or perform a therapeutic intervention under stress and with limited information.

That's not to say that people with a background in the humanities can't make good surgeons -- my undergraduate degree is in English (and I was close to a second degree in Philosophy, also). You just have to demonstrate that while you like thinking and books, you can also make decisions and act when it counts.