Surgical Schools?

[Hawkeye]

Another question, what school has a good surgical program? Mainly orthopedic or cardiothoracic. Thanks again!!

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[prefontaine]

This is a very important question that you should be sure to ask at your osteopathic school interview.

 

[OldManDave]

Hawk;

Do yourself a favor and do a bit of research BEFORE you open your mouth in an interview. Surgery is NOT something you learn as a med student...it is a long and arduous program taken as a post-grad.

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'Old Man Dave'
KCOM, Class of '03

 

[Hawkeye]

Thanks OLD MAN DAVE!! Do you have anymore wonderful advice to offer??? You seem like a real expert on the interview process.

 

[Hawkeye]

Thanks OLD MAN DAVE!! Do you have anymore wonderful advice to offer??? You seem like a real expert on the interview process.

 

[Paul's Boutique]

Why aren't you going allopathic?

 

[Moon]

Hawkeye, make sure you can convince the interviewer that you really want to study ostepathic medicine. Both MD and DO program provide general medical education to make some diagnosis and treatment. However, I believe most of the training is from residency. If you wanna become a surgeon, focus in it while do your rotations then get a residency in that field. I learned that there are several selective rotations beside the mandatory ones. The bottom line is get in first then decide what field you want to study. Also be aware that it's very competive and selective get into surgery residency. The school are very choosy!!

 

[Hawkeye]

Thanks Moon, you are absolutely right. I need to focus on getting in first and the worry about specialty later.

 

[Hawkeye]

Paul's I am considering going allopathic. Possibly the University of Iowa. I guess I have a little bit of time before I have to make a major decision.

 

[Gregory Gulick]

I'm with Dave on this one. If I were you, Hawk, I wouldn't mention surgery at your osteopathic interviews. The interviewers would have a field day with you. I know if I were on the panel I would ask, "Why would you want to put in all of the extra effort to study osteopathic manipulation if you know this early that you want to practice in a field where it is rarely utilized?" Of course there is no good answer to this so you'd be squashed and thrown in the rejection pile.

In my honest opinion, Hawk, if you are gung-ho on surgery, why choose osteopathic medicine? Sure, D.O.s can become great surgeons and plenty do, but the profession is so geared toward primary care (the reason I like it) that you will probably not feel the same level of faculty support for your career choice as you would likely feel at an M.D. school. So for your own happiness, choose osteopathic medicine IF and ONLY IF you have a sincere desire to be an osteopathic physician over an M.D. Otherwise, put all of your energy on the M.D. route and don't look back.

 

[DOPhD student]

My opinion differs from Gregory's and Old Man Dave's, and here's why. If you want to become a DO, then go for it, no matter what you may aspire to be: a scientist, a surgeon, or an FP. Don't hide your future ambition from the admission committee. Truth is best. For example, when I was interviewed, I was asked on the spot what I want to do with my life, and I said unequivocably that I want to be a physician scientist. I don't think the interviewer was surprised since I applied to the dual degree program but he did ask me if I had known much about the osteopathic philosophy and why I had chosen to go into the field. Get this, I told him that no, I did not know much but I did some research prior to applying and I didn't see much difference in the DO education as compared to an MD education and that's exactly why I don't care whether I attend a DO school or an MD school. Then it all came down to cost. Had I decided to go to an MD school out of state, my debt would have been about twice as big and I would not have had the guaranteed opportunity to get into the dual degree track. All for what? The advantage of wider visibility as an MD does not justify my abandonment of research and the higher cost. Therefore, I chose the best available option for me at the time. I gave them the truth, and they apparently appreciated it. You should too. And uh no, it's not much harder to get into esoteric residencies as a DO. It's just that most DO students, as they matriculate, already made up their mind to go into more general medicine than subspecialties. As a case and point, I know some brilliant people who graduated last year who did fantastic on the boards as well as in school - top 10% of the class and USMLE step I in the 220-230 range who opted to go into FP after graduation and so they went. As you can see, it's not a lack of opportunity that you should be worrying about. It's a lack of interest in specialties that steers DO students into general practice.

[This message has been edited by DOPhD student (edited October 06, 1999).]

 

[mina]

I second the latter's response. I am a DO general surgeon. Pursue your bliss. I did mine, and have no regrets for it.

 

[Pepper]

Hawkeye,

hey, Old Man Dave is just trying to help you out. You asked a question/advice and he is nice enough to help you. I think he does have a lot of experience interviewing and in the medical field. Reading his posts have really benefited me. I agree with Dave and Gregory. At an interview...saying you're interested in research is very different than saying you're interested in surgery. D.O. programs are all about primary care training first and foremost. Some of the D.O. schools undergoing site review have received recommendations to improve their research components. I think they'd be more accepting of this choice. Osteopathic and also allopathic programs these days are still encouraging primary care specialties. However, I think there is a difference in the number of available AOA apporoved surgical residencies. If you check the lists of internship and residency programs on the AOA website you'd see that there are far fewer spots for D.O. surgery residencies and plenty of primary care spots to go around. Maybe I interpreted this site wrong (??). Please correct me on this point if this is not the case.

 

[OldManDave]

Hey Hawk,

After re-reading my own post to you, I definitely could have phrased it better. It was not intended to come across as rude...unfortunately, it did.

However, the gist of it remains the same. It is good to profess some knowledge in the direction(s) you wish to pursue; but if you appear too certain, it can be detrimental. I was grilled for being as certain as I am about where I want to go despite the fact I have 10 years working specifically in those disciplines.

Plus, I would be hesitant to base my med school choices on the residencies they may or may not have. Most grads do their residencies in places other than where they went to school. I quizzed all of the Docs I worked with prior to entering school and most of them felt you got a better, more diversified education if you do your school, residency and fellowship in different programs. This provides broader exposure to a variety of opinions and techniques vs. a singular, more unified view if all of your education and training were under the auspices of a single program. Again, this is just an opinion...

Lastly, in no way would I dissuay you from going DO. Nor would I attempt to convince you to go MD...this is a very personal and profound decision and only you know the correct answer.

Let me ask you a rhetorical question, would you buy an ill-fitting suit and hope that you "grew" into it? No, you would purchase the suit that fits you...same thing applies to med school. If DO fits who you are, then by all means join us. If not, go MD; and I will be proud to call you my colleague.

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'Old Man Dave'
KCOM, Class of '03




[This message has been edited by OldManDave (edited October 10, 1999).]

 

[Hawkeye]

Old Man Dave:

Thanks for clearing it up for me. I understand what you are saying now. I was a little unsure what you were driving at on your last comment. I did in fact think you were coming across rude, but since that was not your intent, NO HARD FEELINGS. I am going to visit COMS in Des Moines on Friday. I hope to get a better feel if DO is right for me.

Hawkeye

 

[mt]

oldmandave,

I am happy to see your reply to HAWKEYE. I was a litle concerned over the origional wording of your first post. I am always eager to read your replies on this list and our oldpremed email. Good luck with your exams. HAWKEYE, good luck with your decision on your medical education.

MT
DO applicant

 

[mig2k]

Hawkeye: In a way I am asking the same question you are, where should I go if I plan to do surgery? For me, the most important thing is the clinical rotation to a hospital that I plan to do my residency at. I agree with OldMan that one should do school, residency, and fellowship at different sites, but for something like surgery, I feel that its beneficial to network with the affiliate hospitals that you plan to do your residencies at.

I am particularly interested in Orthopedic Surgery (osteopathy and orthopedic-anything was made for each other!

)and plan to do an osteopathic residency instead of an allopathic residency. And after some research, I found that the hospitals at Michigan have OUTSTANDING residency programs in o-surgery. So to answer you question, MSUCOM would be the ideal school for surgery (especially for osteopathic residencies) I also found that many UHS (and other schools around the area I'm sure) students rotate through MI hospitals. Although MI is friggin' cold, I will probabably attend UHS. Education-wise I think all the schools are pretty much the same. Good luck.

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Ryan
Western U/COMP Class of 2004
thedigitaldoctor.com

 

[Hawkeye]

Ryan

Thanks for the advice. I go to the University of Iowa, so I know what you are saying about the cold. I think I am going to attend COMS in Des Moines as opposed to the U of I. The one thing that the U of I had to offer was that it was easier to specialize in surgery. I will be definately looking into MI as a possible site. Do you currently go there?

Thanks
Hawkeye

 

[mig2k]

Hawkeye: I'm currently not attending anything. I've been accepted to UHS and WesternU so I plan to go to one of those schools (I cancelled all my other interviews after UHS). I'm currently doing research about UHS and their hospital affiliates etc. From what I've seen I will probably send in my deposit next week.

Even though I'm really interested in surgery, a lot can change in 4 years so I'm going to keep an open mind.

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Ryan
Western U/COMP Class of 2004
thedigitaldoctor.com

 

[Pepper]

I'm kind of surprised that several people posted that MSUCOM has a strong "program for surgical training". I'm not arguing it, just curious. I always thought that MSUCOM was heavy primary care. After all, something like 85% of their graduates enter primary care residencies which helps them achieve their high primary care rank in USNews. The state of MI does have a long tradition of established osteopathic physicians in all areas and all hospitals. However, there's always a catch. Malpractice insurance for all docs in MI is one of the highest in the nation.

 

[mig2k]

Pepper: MSUCOM doesnt have a "strong" surgical program, no stronger than any other DO school. What it does have is A LOT of BIG DO friendly hospitals. By looking at the AOA Opportunities page on AOA residencies, there are A LOT of surgical residencies in MI. So the only advantage I see with MSUCOM is that they have strong affiliations with big-fat DO hospitals, a definite PLUS if you plan to do an osteopathic surgical residency (although its friggin COLD in MI!!).

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Ryan
Western U/COMP Class of 2004
thedigitaldoctor.com

 

[Pepper]

Miglo,

gothcha. I see what you mean. Michigan is cold I agree with that too. However, the falls there are really beautiful.

Pepper