surprisingly easy/hard matches this year?

[phillyfornia]

i don't know the nationwide stats, but from what i've heard (from friends and classmates), this years match had some specialties that were unusually easy and unusually difficult.

for example, anesthesiology seemed to be on the easy side this year. i know many slightly above avg candidates that matched at kickass programs (yale, ucsf, columbia, hopkins, duke). i even know of some DOs that were able to land good positions. there were also some big name programs with slots that people were able to scramble into (mgh, cornell, dartmouth, etc.)

on the other hand, it seemed like medicine and gen surg were surprisingly difficult to land this year. i know a lot of my buddies applying to medicine dropped down lower on their list than they expected. a lot of my gen surg friends also dropped really low and some of them didn't even match (good candidates too!).

this is all based on my personal experience of course. have you guys noticed similar things with your schools match?

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[Winged Scapula]

I'm not sure any of the above was "suprising", given that the patterns of matching in the specialties you've listed have been evident for a couple of years.

Every specialty, with the possible exception of things like Derm and Ortho which are perenially difficult, goes through cycles. It gets difficult to match, so the less than stellar candidates don't apply, then the popularity wanes and it becomes easier...and so on, usually every 5-7 years or so.

Trouble comes when faculty "advisors" with little to no knowledge of what the real dynamics of a field are like, tell applicants things based on the field years ago. The idea that general surgery is non-competitive is still out there, based on knowledge from years ago, despite the fact that applications and the number of unmatched AMGs, has significantly increased over the last 3 years.

And as always applicants will overestimate their ability to match - whether its by not ranking enough programs, not applying widely enough or at enough less competitive programs. It happens every year to "good candidates".

 

[Arch Guillotti]

i even know of some DOs that were able to land good positions

imagine that

 

[Winged Scapula]

imagine that

Good catch! I hadn't noticed that.

You DOs are a pretty smart crowd!

 

[badgas]

imagine that

Are you SERIOUS??? Even DOs matched!?!?! That MUST mean that anesth. is super easy to match into! It shocks me to see how well such "smart" people actually understand the match. Do you realize that because OB had like 6 unfilled doesn't mean it was more competitive than other specialties? It means that they are more efficient in making their rank lists. Anesth. apparently will never figure this out as each year there is at least one big name program that doesn't fill.

 

[sophiejane]

i even know of some DOs that were able to land good positions.

Impossible. EVERYONE knows that DOs only get the spots leftover after all the super smart MDs have taken their pick. I'm sure my classmates who matched radiology, EM, surgery, OB, anes, and IM at very respectable ACGME programs just got in because for some reason, nobody wanted those spots this year.

 

[bellalou]

Are you SERIOUS??? Even DOs matched!?!?! That MUST mean that anesth. is super easy to match into! It shocks me to see how well such "smart" people actually understand the match. Do you realize that because OB had like 6 unfilled doesn't mean it was more competitive than other specialties? It means that they are more efficient in making their rank lists. Anesth. apparently will never figure this out as each year there is at least one big name program that doesn't fill.

Actually, OB/GYN was more competitive this year. The word was that it was a 40% increase in applications. I know at least 4 people that did not match in OB/GYN from a top 20 med school. The decrease in unfilled spots may mean that they were better at making the rank lists this year partially, but I think it was explained by an increase in competitiveness as well.

 

[Samoa]

There was talk on the anesthesia board about how some of the top programs were shortening their rank lists in the hope of getting unmatched people from more competitive specialties in the scramble. I don't know how much truth there is to that, though.

 

[DO_2007]

i even know of some DOs that were able to land good positions.

The program I've matched with, asked every MD in the world to accept that position, before giving it to me. haha

 

[calgon]

Well doesn't Gas like to pilfer prime candidates who didn't match into other fields? I thought that's why the keep spots open.

 

[O Face]

For all the talk there is from DO's concerning their equality with MDs, DO's sure do get defensive when there is the slightest suggestion of their inferiority. It sounds almost...what's the word...insecure?

 

[sophiejane]

For all the talk there is from DO's concerning their equality with MDs, DO's sure do get defensive when there is the slightest suggestion of their inferiority. It sounds almost...what's the word...insecure?

It's not about insecurity, my friend. Every DO I know is very secure in their skills and credentials. It's about debunking the stereotype that really seems to flourish on SDN, but is largely absent in the real world, interestingly.

 

[SLUser11]

It's not about insecurity, my friend. Every DO I know is very secure in their skills and credentials. It's about debunking the stereotype that really seems to flourish on SDN, but is largely absent in the real world, interestingly.

That's an overstatement.

 

[tiredmom]

Actually, OB/GYN was more competitive this year. The word was that it was a 40% increase in applications. I know at least 4 people that did not match in OB/GYN from a top 20 med school. The decrease in unfilled spots may mean that they were better at making the rank lists this year partially, but I think it was explained by an increase in competitiveness as well.

I'll second this. We also had 4 people not match ob this year. Several programs I interviewed at said they had 30-50% more apps this year than last year. It's trending back up. It's sad that some advisors didn't keep up with the trends - we were told by one of the main advisors in the department that "you'll only not match ob if you're an ax-murderer"... obviously not this year. We had more people not match ob than not match ENT, Anesthesia, or Ortho.

 

[badgas]

I'll second this. We also had 4 people not match ob this year. Several programs I interviewed at said they had 30-50% more apps this year than last year. It's trending back up. It's sad that some advisors didn't keep up with the trends - we were told by one of the main advisors in the department that "you'll only not match ob if you're an ax-murderer"... obviously not this year. We had more people not match ob than not match ENT, Anesthesia, or Ortho.

Please don't even compare OB to ENT or Ortho in terms of level of competition. Yeah, of course I already realize that the field that EVERYONE matched into is the most competitive in their own minds and people like to pat themselves on the back a bit. But the average ENT/Ortho applicant tests AOA positive, top 10% with USMLE of 240+. Just because more people didn't match at your school in OB says nothing about how competitive the field is... Of course I'll admit that it was MORE competitive this year since some applicants that would have snuck through in the past did not do so this year. But comparing to those fields is obsurd. You would be much more accurate to compare to anesthesia... which STILL is more competitive. Actually, I may be a little biased, but I think that anesthesia is more competitive than rad onc, plastics and derm. Damn I am the **** for matching in it! (Please realize that the last 2 sentences were a joke)

 

[loveumms]

For all the talk there is from DO's concerning their equality with MDs, DO's sure do get defensive when there is the slightest suggestion of their inferiority. It sounds almost...what's the word...insecure?

With all the type A personalities on this board (MDs and DOs alike) it's not suprising that people get upset over a stupid comment that probably wasn't even intended to mean the way it sounded (although I admit it was messed up).

If the DOs starting putting the smack down on the MDs we would all be getting upset too. In the end, we are equals - even though our educations might be slightly different we both end up being doctors. Instead of having pissing contests about who is superior why don't we just teach each other and work together? I know the DOs at my school are incredible about teaching us MDs some of the stuff we didn't learn in med school.

Why can't we all just get along?

 

[IrishKel]

Please don't even compare OB to ENT or Ortho in terms of level of competition. Yeah, of course I already realize that the field that EVERYONE matched into is the most competitive in their own minds and people like to pat themselves on the back a bit. But the average ENT/Ortho applicant tests AOA positive, top 10% with USMLE of 240+. Just because more people didn't match at your school in OB says nothing about how competitive the field is... Of course I'll admit that it was MORE competitive this year since some applicants that would have snuck through in the past did not do so this year. But comparing to those fields is obsurd. You would be much more accurate to compare to anesthesia... which STILL is more competitive. Actually, I may be a little biased, but I think that anesthesia is more competitive than rad onc, plastics and derm. Damn I am the **** for matching in it! (Please realize that the last 2 sentences were a joke)

All I think people are trying to say is that OB was more competitive this year than in the recent past. Not trying to compare it with other fields. Who cares which fields are the most competitive? Just because you fit the AOA, 240+ profile doesn't mean you should pick Ortho, Derm, ENT, etc... because you can. You should pick whatever you enjoy and can see yourself happy in for the next 30 years.

 

[goooooober]

With all the type A personalities on this board (MDs and DOs alike) it's not suprising that people get upset over a stupid comment that probably wasn't even intended to mean the way it sounded (although I admit it was messed up).

If the DOs starting putting the smack down on the MDs we would all be getting upset too. In the end, we are equals - even though our educations might be slightly different we both end up being doctors. Instead of having pissing contests about who is superior why don't we just teach each other and work together? I know the DOs at my school are incredible about teaching us MDs some of the stuff we didn't learn in med school.

Why can't we all just get along?

Couldn't have said it better. Great post.

 

[sophiejane]

With all the type A personalities on this board (MDs and DOs alike) it's not suprising that people get upset over a stupid comment that probably wasn't even intended to mean the way it sounded (although I admit it was messed up).

You are so right. You'd think I'd have learned after posting here for 4 years not to get into these traps...it's a no win situation.

As I've said before, all that really matters to me is my situation, and what I know to be true, which is what I speak about. There may exist bias and prejudice, but all I can say (and maybe I'm just fortunate) is that I've never experienced it.

Anyway...let's release this thread from it's hijacked state!!!

Carry on!

 

[tiredmom]

Please don't even compare OB to ENT or Ortho in terms of level of competition. Yeah, of course I already realize that the field that EVERYONE matched into is the most competitive in their own minds and people like to pat themselves on the back a bit. But the average ENT/Ortho applicant tests AOA positive, top 10% with USMLE of 240+. Just because more people didn't match at your school in OB says nothing about how competitive the field is... Of course I'll admit that it was MORE competitive this year since some applicants that would have snuck through in the past did not do so this year. But comparing to those fields is obsurd. You would be much more accurate to compare to anesthesia... which STILL is more competitive. Actually, I may be a little biased, but I think that anesthesia is more competitive than rad onc, plastics and derm. Damn I am the **** for matching in it! (Please realize that the last 2 sentences were a joke)

Chill dude - I didn't compare it to ENT or Ortho. I was talking about the fact that in the past gagillion years at my school - everybody who wanted ob got it. Get off your laughing gas and read my post! There are a lot of really qualified people (read that as having all those characteristics you say the ENT/Ortho people have) going into OB that could be doing ENT/Ortho or any of the other "competitive" specialties... WE CHOOSE to do ob because we like it. I don't understand why you have to trash other specialties to make yourself feel better? This thread is about what was different this year than expected. Ob was different than expected... not MORE competitive related to other specialties, but much more competitive than Ob has been in the last several years. That's what I'm saying, not trying to ruin your ego for getting into Anesthesia... but if you need to pick on another specialty to feel better about yourself, I feel sorry for you.

 

[c.bear]

EM had only 6 spots in the scramble this year too making it significantly more competitive than previous years.

 

[goooooober]

You are so right. You'd think I'd have learned after posting here for 4 years not to get into these traps...it's a no win situation.

As I've said before, all that really matters to me is my situation, and what I know to be true, which is what I speak about. There may exist bias and prejudice, but all I can say (and maybe I'm just fortunate) is that I've never experienced it.

Anyway...let's release this thread from it's hijacked state!!!

Carry on!

I gotta give you your props though, you always stand up for DOs. That's a good thing. Peace out.

 

[Apollyon]

The off-the-cuff remark by the OP regarding DO's seems to have rankled many people, and does faintly have the essence of insecurity. Regardless of what DO students and residents think, there is still, today, an institutional bias at many places against DO's (less) and USFMG's (more). To not see this is myopic. For example, at Duke, if you are a DO, you are NOT welcome. That comes from the top. There are a few there, but they are the exceptions. Not one in general IM. Not one. None in surgery. There are Irish and Australian USFMG's in IM at Duke, but no Caribbeans (with the only difference being the school) - although there is a significant number of non-US grads of the American University of Beirut at Duke. The Irish, Aus, and AUB are all in IM, Peds, Neurology, and Cards fellows, or Duke-res trained, springboarded into fellowships at other academic centers.

People with the knee-jerk response of "even some DO's matched at good places" being interpreted like "lesser candidates" or "special ed-types" is just as tired as the people who make the primary statement.

I see DO's matching at good places as a testament to equality in the face of bias against them - "to be the man, you have to beat the man". Both in residency and now in practice, I have USMD, USDO, and FMG colleagues - most of which I didn't know were of that until it came up in conversation or I saw it written down, and there is no correlation to clinical quality - everyone I work with, bar none, I would send a family member to.

 

[bellalou]

Please don't even compare OB to ENT or Ortho in terms of level of competition.

Actually, I may be a little biased, but I think that anesthesia is more competitive than rad onc, plastics and derm. Damn I am the **** for matching in it! (Please realize that the last 2 sentences were a joke)

I agree with tiredmom (but I always do - ). The original intention of this thread was to talk about surprises this year. For our school, OB/GYN was a huge surprise in it's level of competitiveness. That is all I am saying. I am not trying to compare to the holy ENT, Ortho, or....Anesthesia (?).

From my understanding, the match rate is the lowest for Rad Onc, Plastics, and Derm. I thought it was much higher for Anesthesia. Please correct me if I am wrong.

 

[deleted109597]

The couple's match was worse this year than any year since 1996.

 

[badgas]

I agree with tiredmom (but I always do - ). The original intention of this thread was to talk about surprises this year. For our school, OB/GYN was a huge surprise in it's level of competitiveness. That is all I am saying. I am not trying to compare to the holy ENT, Ortho, or....Anesthesia (?).

From my understanding, the match rate is the lowest for Rad Onc, Plastics, and Derm. I thought it was much higher for Anesthesia. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Good god. Yes, I will correct you... please re read the last sentence of my post. "the last 2 sentences are a joke." My post was light-hearted and I apologize if it came off as anything else. Lighten up people!

 

[vegetables]

The couple's match was worse this year than any year since 1996.

Just curious how you heard that? Stats can't be out already....or are they? Thanks!

 

[alzheimers]

I totally agree with the post made by the first person, people at my school matched at great anesthesia places (columbia, usc) while others in medicine and neuro got their lower choices on the rank lists...

 

[filter07]

The couple's match was worse this year than any year since 1996.

Marriage has always been fairly prestigious and difficult to get into.

 

[carrigallen]

I think essentially everyone wants their matched specialty to be 'more competitive' than in years past. SDN has always been like that.
I don't think things changed too much this year, except that ER residency became a bit more competitive (i am going into IM).
I think the biggest change was the 2005 season, because of the 80-hr work week rule Gen Surg started getting more applicants (This did not necessarily make it more competitive though). Since then, the trends are essentially the same.
It is also good to base observations on the US Senior data, not the combined data, since some fields such as OB-Gyn have a fair number of IMG/FMG/DO applicants.

 

[deleted109597]

Just curious how you heard that? Stats can't be out already....or are they? Thanks!

The stats are already listed on their website, and were so at 1pm on match day.
http://www.nrmp.org/advancedata2007.pdf
http://www.nrmp.org/2007pressrelease.pdf

 

[eastcoastyall]

General surgery was darn hard this year.

 

[Faebinder]

General surgery was darn hard this year.

Just like last year... and even close to how hard it was the year before.... General Surgery is hard but people are not seeing this yet because everyone doesnt want the prelims... but end up dying to get them once they dont get catagorical.

 

[Lamborghini1315]

For all the talk there is from DO's concerning their equality with MDs, DO's sure do get defensive when there is the slightest suggestion of their inferiority. It sounds almost...what's the word...insecure?

Imagine someone made a post saying MD's get into all the easy residencies out there, iam sure that will make all the future MD's a lil ticked off dont you think? So its instinctive on anyone's part to defend in what they believe in and by the way DO's are equal to MD'S period.

 

[danielmd06]

I haven't seen the average USMLE scores yet for all the specialties, and I suppose that would factor into my interpretation of "competitive" more than the matching percentages.

Of the matching percentages I have read about, Emergency Medicine was a bit of an eye opener for me. I knew it was popular, but it still came as a surprise.

Props to EM!

 

[drwatson]

Marriage has always been fairly prestigious and difficult to get into.

True, and you definitely don't want to scramble into it.

 

[Tired]

Imagine someone made a post saying MD's get into all the easy residencies out there, iam sure that will make all the future MD's a lil ticked off dont you think?

Unlikely, since that would just be a silly thing to say.

 

[obbyjobby]

So its instinctive on anyone's part to defend in what they believe in and by the way DO's are equal to MD'S period.

Ok. I think comments like "even some DOs got in" aren't meant to offend ya'll, they're mostly just because those of us at allopathic schools are totally ignorant about osteopathic education. I've never worked with a single DO through my entire medical training nor did I look into osteopathic schools so I honestly have no idea what it's about. I know the curriculum is different but I don't know how or why. I trained with MDs and am going to be an MD so that's pretty much the system I know. [Also, I had a friend going into derm who was kind of pissed that DOs can apply for allopathic residency positions (I guess IM?) but MDs can't apply for osteopathic positions -- usually plenty of spots to go around and not really a big deal except for those hypercompetitive specialties like derm, I guess.]

 

[goooooober]

Ok. I think comments like "even some DOs got in" aren't meant to offend ya'll, they're mostly just because those of us at allopathic schools are totally ignorant about osteopathic education. I've never worked with a single DO through my entire medical training nor did I look into osteopathic schools so I honestly have no idea what it's about. I know the curriculum is different but I don't know how or why. I trained with MDs and am going to be an MD so that's pretty much the system I know. [Also, I had a friend going into derm who was kind of pissed that DOs can apply for allopathic residency positions (I guess IM?) but MDs can't apply for osteopathic positions -- usually plenty of spots to go around and not really a big deal except for those hypercompetitive specialties like derm, I guess.]

Well obbyjobby, let me educate you. Our curriculum is NOT different than ones at allopathic schools. We have to go through the same exact courses that you guys go through. The only difference is that in addition to all biochem, phys, and etc., we have to also go through 3-6 hrs per week of training in OMM which is specific to osteopaths and involves learning holistic techniques to address musculoskeletal problems. Most DOs don't end up using OMM techniques, but have to learn it to graduate. Those that do, typically end up in FM, sports medicine or Pain management and typically require additional training after med school. As far as your "friend", last year over 95% of DO students in the country voted to combine the DO and MD match so MDs would have equal access to DO residencies. However, the powers that be refused to combine the match anyways fearing loss of their own power and positions. But, if you are not going to work with any DOs, then I guess you don't have to worry about all this. Good luck and Peace out.

 

[deleted109597]

As far as your "friend", last year over 95% of DO students in the country voted to combine the DO and MD match so MDs would have equal access to DO residencies. However, the powers that be refused to combine the match anyways fearing loss of their own power and positions.

Well, once they are combined, I think some of the FUD will stop. Until then, DOs have access to more residency spots than MD students by absolute numbers. And since many MD program directors don't have the stigma towards DOs, it is effectively limiting the number of spots they can get in certain specialties, which breeds resentment. I'm sure that if they combine the residencies, there will still be some "elitism", just like there is towards Carib schools.
There are always two ways to go against a stigma, one is to work hard and prove it is not true, and the other is to whine about it. Guess which ones most people don't like?

 

[obbyjobby]

Well thanks for "educating" me! And in such a lovely and polite tone, no less! Just for the record, are you attempting to blame me for the fact that I've never worked with a DO, or are you more upset that I dared to admit that I know nothing about osteopathic medicine, despite the fact that I've never once passed judgment about osteopaths and fully admit I know nothing about it? Awesome way to represent, in any case

 

[goooooober]

Well thanks for "educating" me! And in such a lovely and polite tone, no less! Just for the record, are you attempting to blame me for the fact that I've never worked with a DO, or are you more upset that I dared to admit that I know nothing about osteopathic medicine, despite the fact that I've never once passed judgment about osteopaths and fully admit I know nothing about it? Awesome way to represent, in any case

Wow, I don't know what gave you the idea that I was upset or my tone was bad, but chill. I realize that not everyone has worked with DOs and I was just taking the opportunity to provide some info about our training. I think its great that you admit to not knowing enough about it and I was just trying to lend a helping hand. I am not blaming, judging, hating, upseting, or misrepresenting. Just realize that when you admit to not knowing something, regardless of the topic, someone may want to help you out, so be receptive to information and don't be so sensitive. Peace out or should I say chill out.

 

[goooooober]

Well, once they are combined, I think some of the FUD will stop. Until then, DOs have access to more residency spots than MD students by absolute numbers. And since many MD program directors don't have the stigma towards DOs, it is effectively limiting the number of spots they can get in certain specialties, which breeds resentment. I'm sure that if they combine the residencies, there will still be some "elitism", just like there is towards Carib schools.
There are always two ways to go against a stigma, one is to work hard and prove it is not true, and the other is to whine about it. Guess which ones most people don't like?

I completely agree. People need to realize that just because DOs can apply to allo residencies, does not mean that allo residencies are handing over spots to them. They have to compete for spots and hey, if you have worked hard and proven yourself then there is nothing to worry about, you just compete. But I do understand your point about the resentment by some.

 

[obbyjobby]

Just realize that when you admit to not knowing something, regardless of the topic, someone may want to help you out, so be receptive to information and don't be so sensitive. Peace out or should I say chill out.

Thanks for the tip. Clearly I'M the one with the chip on my shoulder

 

[goooooober]

Thanks for the tip. Clearly I'M the one with the chip on my shoulder

Nope, no chips. Just trying to help you. You are way too sensitive. Maybe next time you should just look it up.

 

[mlw03]

Just like last year... and even close to how hard it was the year before.... General Surgery is hard but people are not seeing this yet because everyone doesnt want the prelims... but end up dying to get them once they dont get catagorical.

perhaps someone here can explain the thinking that goes on in this situation to me. you go through 4 years of med school and then match into something (prelim gen surg) where you are NOT guaranteed of completing a residency?! i'm not talking about people who do a prelim year of gen surg and then onto anesthesia/radiology/urology/etc - but people who just take a prelim surg spot. what happens to these interns at the end of that year? do they re-enter the match? switch into another field? unless there's more to it that i don't understand, it just seems like this situation allows gen surg programs to have more interns to take care of the scut on the floor while the upper level categorical residents get to be in the OR.

after all we've gone through, to not have the security of completing a residency (assuming one performs appropriately) is simply mind boggling. i'd love to hear the thought process of someone who has done a prelim gen surg spot.

 

[Winged Scapula]

perhaps someone here can explain the thinking that goes on in this situation to me. you go through 4 years of med school and then match into something (prelim gen surg) where you are NOT guaranteed of completing a residency?! i'm not talking about people who do a prelim year of gen surg and then onto anesthesia/radiology/urology/etc - but people who just take a prelim surg spot. what happens to these interns at the end of that year? do they re-enter the match? switch into another field? unless there's more to it that i don't understand, it just seems like this situation allows gen surg programs to have more interns to take care of the scut on the floor while the upper level categorical residents get to be in the OR.

after all we've gone through, to not have the security of completing a residency (assuming one performs appropriately) is simply mind boggling. i'd love to hear the thought process of someone who has done a prelim gen surg spot.

Some people don't have the option of getting a categorical position so they will take a preliminary surgery position to get a foot in the door.

Some will continue on as a prelim for a couple more years before giving up and quitting medicine.

Some will continue on as a prelim for a couple more years before deciding to try another field.

Some will get offered a categorical position from 2nd year on.

Some will get offered a categorical position after a few prelim years.

Most reenter the match unless they have a signed contract from their prelim program to continue on after PGY1.

Some switch fields after PGY1.

There are as many stories as there are reasons for taking a Prelim position.

 

[mlw03]

Some will get offered a categorical position after a few prelim years.

thanks for your explanation Dr. Cox. if i'm understanding you correctly, you're saying some people will do multiple internship years?! with the hope, but no guarantee, or getting a categorical spot eventually, or at least a single-year pgy-2 contract? are people that desperate to get into surgery? why not apply to categorical gen surg positions only, and then something else as a backup? i understand the desire to do what you enjoy the most, but there's also the desire to pay off the massive debt we're in as well as get training that'll allow you to find a decent-paying job.

 

[Faebinder]

thanks for your explanation Dr. Cox. if i'm understanding you correctly, you're saying some people will do multiple internship years?! with the hope, but no guarantee, or getting a categorical spot eventually, or at least a single-year pgy-2 contract? are people that desperate to get into surgery? why not apply to categorical gen surg positions only, and then something else as a backup? i understand the desire to do what you enjoy the most, but there's also the desire to pay off the massive debt we're in as well as get training that'll allow you to find a decent-paying job.

It's really hard to give up your life dream..

 

[cali-ob]

It's really hard to give up your life dream..

you got that right!