Survey: Re-testing Failed Exams/Courses in Med School

[siednarb]

Hello everyone - Last year my medical school abolished its retest policy completely for remedial activity due to the abuse of students constantly failing on purpose due to time constraints and then just studying for the retake. The new policy was grandfathered in, however, and the current MS II's still have the option to retake any class they fail. Unfortunately, my class (2004) have seen some of our classmates fail with no option at all except the summer or retaking the course next year.
As a result, I have drafted a new policy for my school, one that would limit the amount of retakes a student could take in a given year to two, and further the retake could only be used in courses in which one exam determines the grade for the course.

Next week, this policy will be brought by myself in front of the deans and faculty.

This is where I need YOUR help - if you could please briefly explain to me whether or not your school has a remedial/retake policy and further, briefly describe what it entails. This would help me tremendously.

Thanks a lot!

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[ckent]

Our classes are graded (A,B,C, fail). Anybody that gets 60-70% (a "D"), gets what is called a remedial pass. This person has to take a test from the USMLE people on that subject matter and pass the test in order to pass the class. The highest grade this person can receive in the class is a C, regardless of how well he or she does in on the test from the USMLE. (the people that make the USMLE make tests for in different subject matters specifically for the purpose of "retesting" med students). The problem at your school sounds easily fixed by not allowing people who re-take the tests a higher grade then a C or whatever your lowest grade is. If your school is pass/fail, then I would limit the number of tests they could retake. Even our school has limits, I have a classmate who has gotten 2 conditional D's and has to take these tests over the summertime but if she gets one more D, then my school will not let her pass the year.

 

[siednarb]

Thanks a lot CK - could you just give me the name of your medical school? By the way - my school is HP/P/F which is why my proposal does limit the amounts of retakes one could take.

Also - to anyone else posting to this reply - please mention the medical school you attend.

Thanks for all your help!

-David

 

[riverweb]

Here's the deal at Downstate:

A student can fail up to 2 blocks and retake during the summer. This retake includes all aspects for the block, including gross anatomy (yep, they dissect again.) If they pass the summer retakes, they're promoted to MS2. If they fail even one retake, then they will repeat MS1. I don't know what the deal is for MS2.

Needless to say, there's a lot of motivation for MS1s to pass each block.

 

[ckent]

I go to the University of Maryland school of medicine.

 

[Snoopy]

Here's how it works at CWRU (we are a pass/fail school):

First year:

1. If you fail a block (they don't call it failing, they call it "getting identified" since you are known to the grading system only as a number) you "remediate." Remediation (as far as I know--I've never had to remediate) involves meeting with faculty members or tutors to work on your areas of weakness. Sometimes you have to retake the exam, sometimes not.

2. In first year, if you fail more than two blocks before Christmas break you are asked to take a leave of absence.

3. If you fail a total of three blocks over the course of the whole year, promotion to second year depends on whether or not you pass the comprehensive final at the end of the year. If you pass you go on to second year (I believe conditionally/on probation). If you fail you must repeat first year.

4. If you fail two blocks and fail the comprehensive exam you must repeat first year.

5. If you have not failed anything or failed only once and you fail the comprehensive exam you are usually promoted conditionally to second year.

6. In second year you must pass all exams to be promoted to third year, however, if you fail an exam you are allowed to retake the exam or take a new exam (at the discretion of the faculty). This was a new policy this year so I'm not entirely sure how it works. Presumably if you keep failing you keep taking the exam until you pass. I do not know if there is a limit to the number of the times you can fail but I would guess there is. There is no comprehensive final for second year since we take Boards and must pass to continue into third year.

As you can see, the system is somewhat complex and there is some flexibility. To those of us who've never experienced this part of Case it all seems pretty shrouded in secrecy. Of course, there is no incentive to fail an exam here (i.e., to fail it so you can retake it for honors), and having to remediate, especially in second year, is a big pain in the neck.

Hope that helps.

 

[Ferris]

Medical schools should institute policies that remove the lower 10% of each class following each year. This would remove the necessity for a retake and ensure that only those competent to practice medicine make it to graduation. There are far too many people that have been allowed into medical schools for the wrong reasons. As such, it is no surprise that 30% of hospital deaths are due to ineptitude.

 

[DrWBD]

Samuel,of course you must have some sort of objective research demonstrating that the bottom 10% of every medical school class is actually responsible for those deaths, right?

 

[monte]

Originally posted by samuel:
[QB]Medical schools should institute policies that remove the lower 10% of each class following each year.

Wow! That is a pretty bold statement. I will sit back and wait for the responses. By the way, did you consider that a student in the 10th percentile at one school may be in the 30th or higher percentile if he/she were at another school? The lower 10% may have a cumalitive average at or above 80%. It wouldn't be fair to cut a B student, would it?

Take care.

 

[Ferris]

The 10% number was an arbitrary number. It is the concept that I support. As far as comparing grades from one school with another, I don't think the distributions change that much. In spite of the reputation of some schools, I think the caliber of students is the same for nearly all schools- the differences are probably minor.

 

[ned]

Originally posted by samuel:
•The 10% number was an arbitrary number. It is the concept that I support. As far as comparing grades from one school with another, I don't think the distributions change that much. In spite of the reputation of some schools, I think the caliber of students is the same for nearly all schools- the differences are probably minor.•

It is painfully obvious that you are not a medical student. Perhaps you are a premed, perhaps not. One thing is for certain: you are completely clueless.

 

[DrWBD]

Originally posted by samuel:

•The 10% number was an arbitrary number...

I don't think the distributions change that much...

I think the caliber of students is the same for nearly all schools- the differences are probably minor.•

So I guess you don't have that objective evidence. Hopefully if you enter medical school you will acquire a clue.

 

[Ferris]

I would not be addressing this issue if I did not attend medical school. The truth of the matter is medical school is vastly different than the public perception of medical school. Mainly, it is not the "back-breaking" experience that is often foretold. So to relate back to my original comment...the medical community is not the omnipotent (in some circles, divine) community that it often portrays. And, as in any career, you are only as strong as your weakest link.

 

[siednarb]

While I think the conversation that has ensued since I posted my request has been...interesting, i would like to keep the focus of this to what other medical schools have as a re-test policy - it seems to me that most medical schools do have some form of a remedial policy before forcing a student to retake the year.

The idea that each year medical schools should cut out the bottom 10% of the class seems a little incredulous - I am sure there are plenty of world-reknown and wonderful doctors who were at the bottom of their class during medical school - it leads to the old addage that even the person who graduates last in their class is still called "doctor" - the true test of medical school are of course the 3rd and 4th years when you are in the hospital - the best student the first two years could be the ***** during rotations.

Anyways - while I appreciate the discussion, i would love to hear about other medical school remedial policies.

Best,

-david

 

[ned]

Sorry about that.

We're in the middle of finals right now and I thought it would make me feel better to flame someone that doesn't think some of my classmates should pass the year.

But I was wrong. I don't feel any better. I'm going to delete the post.

I just took an elective on "Medical Mistakes" -- and it's uninformed attitudes like samuel's that poison the debate. I will open another thread on medical mistakes to talk about such issues soon. But I will do so *after finals.*

To answer the original poster: my school (michigan) allows one exam retake if the student's average leading up to the exam is respectable. After that, the class must be repeated. Two or three repeats, and you must repeat the year.

 

[DocToBe]

Originally posted by samuel:
•The 10% number was an arbitrary number. It is the concept that I support. As far as comparing grades from one school with another, I don't think the distributions change that much. In spite of the reputation of some schools, I think the caliber of students is the same for nearly all schools- the differences are probably minor.•

If you were in medical school you would realize that even those in the lowest percentiles at any school in the USA are working extremely hard to pass. Why don't you get a clue?

 

[Ferris]

Working hard should not be a medical litmus test.

 

[Mango]

Dude, I don't know what you guys are so pissed about. You take a test here, and that's IT. There's no "Oh, you can just take it again" crap! You failed? tough. You either retake the course in the summer, or if you slack off enough to fail 2 courses, you retake the entire year. Many of those people don't return. So I guess that is a sort of "weeding out" of the weaker students. But it may only be a couple each year that drop out.

 

[ckent]

Believe it or not, first and second year performance on multiple choice tests are no indication on how well you will do third or fourth year or how well you will perform as a doctor. I just finished first year, I did fine, but I will readily admit that some people in my class that did poorer than me will probably do better third and fourth year as they have excellent people skills. I don't have to justify my argument as residency directors everywhere almost universally put much more emphasis on performance third and fourth year than first and second and I would argue that residency directors want to train the best physician's possible. Patient's don't present as multiple choice tests...

 

[Mango]

What if you get great grades, AND have excellent people skills!!!

It's hard being so multi-talented! (JOKE!!)

 

[Mango]

In all seriousness, I completely agree with you CK. I know many people in my class with straight honors who will fall on their faces when their people skills are judged. That's a product of the fact that these people have spent their entire lives studying, and forgot to go out and develop a personality. Granted some are just shy, I'll give them that. But is clinical medicine really suited for people with extreme social anxiety???

In any case, grades in year 1 and 2 are so completely inconsequential that it kills me when people get so uptight about them. That being said, I still try and do my best. And if my final grade in Gross isn't what I want, I will hurt somebody!