neuroticchica

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For the med students out there who know the residents and the residents, what percentage of women are single in surgery during residency compared to the men? Also, are the women single by choice or does a girl with a knife scare you all? :)
 

doc05

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men in medicine marry at a significantly higher rate than women. for a demanding field like surgery, probably a similar situation. some of the women are single by choice; of course, being a physician also intimidates many potential partners, and being a surgeon probably magnifies this factor.
 

tom_jones

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neuroticchica said:
For the med students out there who know the residents and the residents, what percentage of women are single in surgery during residency compared to the men? Also, are the women single by choice or does a girl with a knife scare you all? :)

Nothing turns me on more than a a hot woman with a knife.
 

geekgirl

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valid question. i have similar concerns myself. is there time to date? and time to meet new people? and are surgeon chicks scary?
 

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I just don't understand all this BS about women surgeons. I don't feel that we are any different from the guys in surgery or the women going into other fields. Of course you will have time to meet people and have a life, at least as much as anyone in surgery will.
 

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Gator Fan said:
I don't feel that we are any different from the women going into other fields.
Speaking as a man, and speaking for most men, I suspect, I _defintely_ see myself as different from the men going into other specialties. People will argue whether that difference is good, bad or indifferent, but I cannot see denying it. Your statement implies that a woman surgeon is defined much more by her sex than her profession. (i.e. female surgeons are no different than female pediatricians or rheumatologists) Is that what you meant?
 

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Women that are in surgery have a good of chance as landing a man as omoraosa manigault stallworth has at being richer than donald trump. I can say this, of course, as a female medical student who wnats to to surgery! I know the odds honey, and let me tell you, it isnt pretty! Most women in surgery programs are MALIGNANT, and we all know what happens to malignant things, right? They either spread, or they get cut, and men are good with gamma knives in relationships!
 

dry dre

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Le_Donald said:
Most women in surgery programs are MALIGNANT
Glad someone had the balls, err, reciprocal gonads to say this.

(Okay Steinems and Friedans of the world, I'm only kidding)
 

tega

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most chics who go into surgery are ugly....thats why they are single...has very little to do with being a surgeon..they are just unattractive. And as someone mentioned ...they are also the feminazi malignant types.....actually Ob/gyn chics take the prize on feminazism.
 

geekgirl

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lads. ladies.
simmer down.
these stereotypes and all this ranting is just getting silly.
there are loads of hot girls who are cool in the or.
and there are loads of nasty b*tches out there.
same as there are a*sholes with issues, and there are also great fellas.
but all these tirades are just getting out of control.
 

Foxxy Cleopatra

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Yes, as a woman surgery resident, you can still get dates. But compared to your male colleagues, it's not the same. Think about it; the majority of nursing staff/nutritionists/ PT/OT's, etc are female; much more lucrative for a male surgery resident looking to play the field :smuggrin:

In my program, about 50% of the women are single compared to ~30% of the guys.

Also, think about the "stereotypical" girl guys go for- sweet, demure, submissive; well, by nature of the field, even if you were once those things, you have to have some element of toughness/ bluntness to survive in a surgical residency. This does not mean that all female surgeons are malignant monsters- at my program, most are actually pretty reasonable people. In other words, you have to (or will become) bold and direct and there are some men that will be completely put off by this, regardless of your physical look.

However, it's not too hard to find a date (especially outside of the hospital) if you are interested. Sometimes I go on dates if I find someone that is interesting and fun; other times when I am particularly busy, I find it easier to be single. If you land yourself in a large city, you'll be able to get dates if you are interested.
 

Le_Donald

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Foxxy

Girl, I like that name. But lets level. You can get alot of dates? If what, you put out? This whole "I'm tough, I'm a woman" thing is NOT a winner with real men! Real men love non-malignant, sweet, intelligent women. Not women with ah chip on their shoulder! Girl, you need to look hard in the mirror and perhaps change some things: don't continue the stereotype! I know, it was hard for me too: but I made the changes necessary to land my nubian prince.
 

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tega said:
most chics who go into surgery are ugly....thats why they are single...has very little to do with being a surgeon..they are just unattractive. And as someone mentioned ...they are also the feminazi malignant types.....actually Ob/gyn chics take the prize on feminazism.
So you are saying that because I am a woman going into surgery, I must therefore be:

A. Ugly
and
B. a monster

That is just so stereotypical and ignorant I cannot respond.
 

kitten

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Women that are in surgery have a good of chance as landing a man as omoraosa manigault stallworth has at being richer than donald trump. I can say this, of course, as a female medical student who wnats to to surgery! I know the odds honey, and let me tell you, it isnt pretty! Most women in surgery programs are MALIGNANT, and we all know what happens to malignant things, right? They either spread, or they get cut, and men are good with gamma knives in relationships!
Real men love non-malignant, sweet, intelligent women. Not women with ah chip on their shoulder! Girl, you need to look hard in the mirror and perhaps change some things: don't continue the stereotype! I know, it was hard for me too: but I made the changes necessary to land my nubian prince.

Le Donald
:rolleyes: As a medical student you are clueless. The above is jibberish. I think you are a prince.
 

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So you are saying that because I am a woman going into surgery, I must therefore be:

A. Ugly
and
B. a monster
Well, I think you hit the nail on the head! I don't want to get on a rant here, but let's be realistic...nearly every female surgeon out there is a (pardon my language) bitch! Think about all those female attendings who try to act like one of the boys...it's just unbecoming of a lady. Now, the flip side is that most male surgeons are not as personable as your average male pediatrician or "MURSE." :idea:

Anyway, having worked with surgical residents of both sexes, the men are usually a lot easier to handle and don't act like they have something to prove...

That's just my opinion, I could be wrong... :luck:
 

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Ms. Cox: I am just stating the truth as I see it. Please, feel free to engage in a conversation regarding it, but please don't demean me. I get this enough as it is, being a minority female.

Kitten: I see you registered JUST to call me a liar! Please refrain from this.


I am trying to do the women of surgery a favor by laying out the facts, and telling them how *I* changed. Please take it to heart ladies, because the world is a cruel place, and doesn't need any more cruel looking or acting women to make it worst for all of us women who are good.

Thank you, Sisters.
 

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jshaw said:
Well, I think you hit the nail on the head! I don't want to get on a rant here, but let's be realistic...nearly every female surgeon out there is a (pardon my language) bitch! Think about all those female attendings who try to act like one of the boys...it's just unbecoming of a lady. Now, the flip side is that most male surgeons are not as personable as your average male pediatrician or "MURSE." :idea:

Anyway, having worked with surgical residents of both sexes, the men are usually a lot easier to handle and don't act like they have something to prove...

That's just my opinion, I could be wrong... :luck:
Jshaw, I thank you for your comments. Yes, I pardon your french, but C'est la vie, right? LOL. I crack myself up. We women should act like women, not like the way we think men would act if they were women.

Thank you, and I like your luck icon :) :luck:
 

Celiac Plexus

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Le_Donald said:
Jshaw, I thank you for your comments. Yes, I pardon your french, but C'est la vie, right? LOL. I crack myself up. We women should act like women, not like the way we think men would act if they were women.

Thank you, and I like your luck icon :) :luck:
Soo.... how do women in surgery "act like women"? lol.

Your narrow view of the world is the same kind of view that contributes to the formation of stereotypes, and ingrained biases. As long as there are dogmatic people like you promulgating archaic sexual identity standards, there will be chauvinists, and (gasp) racists.

How would you like it if someone said, "minority women should quit trying to be smart surgeons, and just act like minority women"?

Try treating everyone as an individual, and accord them the respect, and understanding that he/she deserves. Try to avoid stereotyping people, and judging them based on their gender/race/hair color/etc....
 

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As usual Celiac is right on and so wise.
LeDonald - fyi you are so full of yourself. Instead of trying to enlighten the "women of surgery" please stay focused on your "goodness" and refrain from sterotyping others.
 

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All this relativism is giving me a headache. I've already said how women should be acting, as compared to how they usually do.

Kitty, signing up to cheerlead celiac and call me a liar is real mature. You go girl.

Celiac Plexus said:
Soo.... how do women in surgery "act like women"? lol.

Your narrow view of the world is the same kind of view that contributes to the formation of stereotypes, and ingrained biases. As long as there are dogmatic people like you promulgating archaic sexual identity standards, there will be chauvinists, and (gasp) racists.

How would you like it if someone said, "minority women should quit trying to be smart surgeons, and just act like minority women"?

Try treating everyone as an individual, and accord them the respect, and understanding that he/she deserves. Try to avoid stereotyping people, and judging them based on their gender/race/hair color/etc....
 

dynx

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Gator Fan said:
So you are saying that because I am a woman going into surgery, I must therefore be:

A. Ugly
and
B. a monster

That is just so stereotypical and ignorant I cannot respond.
you forgot:

C. a lesbian
 

Winged Scapula

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Le_Donald said:
Ms. Cox: I am just stating the truth as I see it. Please, feel free to engage in a conversation regarding it, but please don't demean me. I get this enough as it is, being a minority female.
I apologize if you felt I demeaned you; that was not my intent. However, your threads have insulted an entire group of fellow "sisters" (as you refer to them) which appears to be far more demeaning to me than my reference to you and your threads as a troll.

FYI: a BB poster who consistently posts threads which are insulting or ridiculous is commonly referred to as a troll. This has nothing to do with you being a minority or female.

Furthermore, as an attractive female who is currently a senior surgery resident I DO find your comments that it is impossible to either land a man (which I did several years ago and have managed "somehow" to keep him and keep him happy) without changing my personality (I have done no such thing. Then again, I am often told I have the personality of a family practitioner.) and other's references to the "fact" that all female surgeons are abrasive and unpleasant as insulting and stereotypical. Sure there are female surgeons who are physically unattractive and abrasive. These people exist in every field of medicine, amongst both sexes and all races. I've known some very unpleasant and unattractive females in other fields (even the more "gentle" specialties) and I've seen and worked with some very physically and intellectually attractive (to men and women) female surgeons. You just can't stereotype people this way.

Surely as a minority female you understand the concept of stereotypes. Therefore, to claim such a stereotype exists amongst female surgeons and surgery residents would seem to be hypocritical. Why you would insist on promulgating them against another group of people is beyond me.

Frankly, your posts are bordering on violating the SDN TOS which states that as a user you will not engage in insulting, demeaning, threatening or engage in any other inappropriate behavior toward another member or groups of members. You must know that by posting statements such as women cannot get a man and keep them unless they change, and other such archaic statements, you are inflaming the masses.

As a user you are free to post statements about what you believe as long as they do not violation the SDN TOS. The trouble as I see it is your "advice" to other women and insinuating the reasons why female surgeons are single has to do with their presumed unpleasant, assertive/aggresssive or independent behavior. Insisting that to find a man, female surgeons must be "non-malignant, sweet, intelligent" is confusing. Certainly I agree with being non-malignant and sweet - but this is true for everyone, MALE AND FEMALE. Why you would include intelligence confuses me - it would seem to me that everyone in medicine has some modicum of intelligence.

If you found that you needed to change what perhaps was an unpleasant personality to land your "nubian prince" then fine...that decision was yours. However, most women and evolved men prefer that their partner be true to themselves and honest. Most people find the concepts that a) women in surgery are defined as being unattractive and unpleasant/malignant and b) that to land a man we need to change repugnant. This is where you cross the line and offend peolpe. ANY unpleasant person probably does need to work on being a nicer person if they wish to work and live well with others. Female surgeons do not have to do this any more than any other group of females in medicine.

And that finishes my discussion on this matter and why I and others find your posts objectionable.
 

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kitten said:
As usual Celiac is right on and so wise.
LeDonald - fyi you are so full of yourself. Instead of trying to enlighten the "women of surgery" please stay focused on your "goodness" and refrain from sterotyping others.
And please stop saying that you are Black. Your behavior is starting to really get strange...Actually, I think we should ALL ignore LeDonald. I think it's a guy in high school doing this for kicks.
 

Denial

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Le_Donald said:
All this relativism is giving me a headache. I've already said how women should be acting, as compared to how they usually do.

Kitty, signing up to cheerlead celiac and call me a liar is real mature. You go girl.
Since you are so relentlessless stupid I believe the headache you have is because of a concussion ( grade 3)
Studies have shown that your gynophobic crap will get you beat up atleast
80 % or 99% of the time . THe number 80% is only based on the fact that the people beating you up with get exhuasted and will not be able to beat you continuously. SO I wouldnt really count on it.
And brilliant conclusion ! ******!
Wimmen in surgery are ugly and so wimmen not in surgery are pretty by default.
 

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Kimberli Cox said:
I apologize if you felt I demeaned you; that was not my intent. However, your threads have insulted an entire group of fellow "sisters" (as you refer to them) which appears to be far more demeaning to me than my reference to you and your threads as a troll.

FYI: a BB poster who consistently posts threads which are insulting or ridiculous is commonly referred to as a troll. This has nothing to do with you being a minority or female.

Furthermore, as an attractive female who is currently a senior surgery resident I DO find your comments that it is impossible to either land a man (which I did several years ago and have managed "somehow" to keep him and keep him happy) without changing my personality (I have done no such thing. Then again, I am often told I have the personality of a family practitioner.) and other's references to the "fact" that all female surgeons are abrasive and unpleasant as insulting and stereotypical. Sure there are female surgeons who are physically unattractive and abrasive. These people exist in every field of medicine, amongst both sexes and all races. I've known some very unpleasant and unattractive females in other fields (even the more "gentle" specialties) and I've seen and worked with some very physically and intellectually attractive (to men and women) female surgeons. You just can't stereotype people this way.

Surely as a minority female you understand the concept of stereotypes. Therefore, to claim such a stereotype exists amongst female surgeons and surgery residents would seem to be hypocritical. Why you would insist on promulgating them against another group of people is beyond me.

Frankly, your posts are bordering on violating the SDN TOS which states that as a user you will not engage in insulting, demeaning, threatening or engage in any other inappropriate behavior toward another member or groups of members. You must know that by posting statements such as women cannot get a man and keep them unless they change, and other such archaic statements, you are inflaming the masses.

As a user you are free to post statements about what you believe as long as they do not violation the SDN TOS. The trouble as I see it is your "advice" to other women and insinuating the reasons why female surgeons are single has to do with their presumed unpleasant, assertive/aggresssive or independent behavior. Insisting that to find a man, female surgeons must be "non-malignant, sweet, intelligent" is confusing. Certainly I agree with being non-malignant and sweet - but this is true for everyone, MALE AND FEMALE. Why you would include intelligence confuses me - it would seem to me that everyone in medicine has some modicum of intelligence.

If you found that you needed to change what perhaps was an unpleasant personality to land your "nubian prince" then fine...that decision was yours. However, most women and evolved men prefer that their partner be true to themselves and honest. Most people find the concepts that a) women in surgery are defined as being unattractive and unpleasant/malignant and b) that to land a man we need to change repugnant. This is where you cross the line and offend peolpe. ANY unpleasant person probably does need to work on being a nicer person if they wish to work and live well with others. Female surgeons do not have to do this any more than any other group of females in medicine.

And that finishes my discussion on this matter and why I and others find your posts objectionable.
:thumbup: :thumbup: Well said. Great post, Kimberli!
 

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A big difference is that for men, surgery is a career that will help you get more women; while for women, surgery is a career that will discourage male attention. It has nothing to do with intimidation (that's just your own ego- building justification). Beautiful women may be intimidating, but smart successful women are not. Seeking a good breadwinner is just not in men's programming. Finding someone with time and ability to deal with other aspects of keeping a family together is what attracts men. In surveys of desirable mates by career, doctors were near the top of the list for women while falling dead last among men (who preferred teachers). It's fair to assume that among the already undesirable medical profession, surgery falls to the extreme negative side.

This is not to say that you can't find someone to date or marry (and women surgeons can easily get la-d I'm sure), but MOST men wouldn't be interested in anything long term. Combine that with the fact that you'll all be pretty old by the time you finish your training, and it's not encouraging. Why go for the 35 year old surgeon who works 80hrs/week and is tired all the time when there are plenty of 25 year old teachers with more time and energy available?

Women surgeons are less likely to be married and more likely to be divorced than their male counterparts. It makes perfect since since many of the things men are looking for in a relationship are relatively lacking in women surgeons. I think, if your kids are going to be raised by the nanny, why not just marry her?
 

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The stereotyping on this thread is almost beyond comprehension. Do ANYBODY have ANYTHING resembling FACTS to back up their personal views on the world, genders and medical specialities?

Yes, certain TYPES of women, including surgeons, turn off certain TYPES of men, and vice versa. I find little evidence that ALL men are "not programmed to seeking good breadwinners", much less that female surgeons cannot find partners due to their profession.

I can only hope that most of the posters on this thread are still in school. Because that might instill some glimmer of hope that they might grow up to have a more nuanced view on colleagues, patients and people in general.

PS: Why not, while you're at it, try to switch out MAN/WOMAN with Jew/Catholic, Black/White or Gay/Straight. Then the enormity of your stereotyping might become more obvious.
 

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PathOne said:
PS: Why not, while you're at it, try to switch out MAN/WOMAN with Jew/Catholic, Black/White or Gay/Straight. Then the enormity of your stereotyping might become more obvious.
Why not ask some guys if they are looking for a woman who makes a lot of money? They may exist, but I've never met one.

Ok, I'll substitute. Gay's are not programmed to seek out straights. How's that?
 

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hippanonymous said:
A big difference is that for men, surgery is a career that will help you get more women; while for women, surgery is a career that will discourage male attention. It has nothing to do with intimidation (that's just your own ego- building justification). Beautiful women may be intimidating, but smart successful women are not. Seeking a good breadwinner is just not in men's programming. Finding someone with time and ability to deal with other aspects of keeping a family together is what attracts men. In surveys of desirable mates by career, doctors were near the top of the list for women while falling dead last among men (who preferred teachers). It's fair to assume that among the already undesirable medical profession, surgery falls to the extreme negative side.

This is not to say that you can't find someone to date or marry (and women surgeons can easily get la-d I'm sure), but MOST men wouldn't be interested in anything long term. Combine that with the fact that you'll all be pretty old by the time you finish your training, and it's not encouraging. Why go for the 35 year old surgeon who works 80hrs/week and is tired all the time when there are plenty of 25 year old teachers with more time and energy available?

Women surgeons are less likely to be married and more likely to be divorced than their male counterparts. It makes perfect since since many of the things men are looking for in a relationship are relatively lacking in women surgeons. I think, if your kids are going to be raised by the nanny, why not just marry her?
haha, that's funny man.


that teacher thing is NO JOKE! Now when someone mentions their wife, my default question is "is she a teacher?" and you won't guess how many times the answer has been "yes."

but...i've met one or two good surgeon women (yes, they would be considered the pediatrician/family practice type). they happened to be married. the rest were evil. one got married at around the age of 40--and she was truly evil. the other was closing in on 40 and she had the personality of a piece of cardboard.

met many evil surgeon men and they happened to be all married. yes, there is a double standard.
 

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This thread has become so insulting that I almost found it entertaining. *Almost.* It still amazes me what people will say about one another when protected by the anonymity of the internet...

1. Kimberli, couldn't have said it better myself. I think the SDN surgery residents alone show that female surgeons can be diplomatic, intelligent, reasonable, and (heaven forbid) nice and fun people. I'd guess those are the reasons you landed your "nubian prince." ;)

2. Denial, congratulations on matching

3. Celiac, thanks for the resident perspective.

4. No, I don't "put out" to have some nice, fun company.

Okay, I'm on call so I'm going to stop feeding this thread now and go back to being an "evil surgeon." :laugh:
 

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As someone who has enjoyed reading posts and occasionally posting on SDN for many years, I have to say that I have never been more surprised by the completely backwards perspective of what are supposed to be intelligent people.
I commend Kimberly, Foxxy, and Celiac for their posts.

I think the posts on this thread are symbolic of a great feat. It shows that some intellectually gifted members of our community (physicians/physicians in training) have done something amazing - they have somehow have been completely oblivious to the last 100 years in the history of the world, yet think that they are correct.

wake up. You people are the ones who are supposed to be intelligent, and it is dangerous when you all are acting like such idiots.
 

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gatorAKM said:
As someone who has enjoyed reading posts and occasionally posting on SDN for many years, I have to say that I have never been more surprised by the completely backwards perspective of what are supposed to be intelligent people.
I commend Kimberly, Foxxy, and Celiac for their posts.

I think the posts on this thread are symbolic of a great feat. It shows that some intellectually gifted members of our community (physicians/physicians in training) have done something amazing - they have somehow have been completely oblivious to the last 100 years in the history of the world, yet think that they are correct.

wake up. You people are the ones who are supposed to be intelligent, and it is dangerous when you all are acting like such idiots.
100 years ago women stayed home and looked after their families. Today women can get any job and have to choose where there priorities lie. I'm all for them deciding to do whatever they want, but you also can't deny what some decisions mean. When a women decides to become a surgeon, it is obvious that family is low on her list (since she won't really have time for one and will be more of an aunt than a mother to her own kids). For men who want a family with a mother, this makes a woman surgeon an unappealing mate. You can pretend that this isn't the case, but you're in denial. Some men don't want a family anyway and don't need to spend too much time with their significant others, so they'd be happy to marry a surgeon. I think this is relatively uncommon though. You can't just dismiss other people's ideas because they aren't convenient. You could try to make a reasoned argument against them, but that's more difficult.
 

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Well said Kimberli and Foxy.

For those out there that don't know me (i've not posted much in the past few months) i am a senior, female gen surg resident, and yes, i am single. I am not ugly (i've actually been described as attractive). I am 5'5", 125 lbs, long hair, pretty face. And, yes, once again, i am single. I am not a bitch either. My coworkers, nurses, students, etc. all think i'm nice. I've worked very very hard to have a good working relationship with these people. Yes, many female residents can be bitches (no wonder considering how we're treated, you have to react somehow). So, why am I, and others like me single??

Well there are several reasons:

1. I work 120 hours/week (i am in Canada -- no 80 hr work rule here). IN addition to call, i am often paged at odd times when something is wrong with a patient i operated on and i am expected to respond and will actually go see my patient if they are unwell. This is my responsibilty and part of the job. This does not go over well, if on a date. But, more importantly, it limits the ability to actually get out and meet someone.

2. There are many women out there that want to be a "happy homemaker" have lots of money and not work, and pop out babies, and spend their time making their husband happy. These woman are very attracted to a male surgeon. There does not seem to be a male equivalent to this, and therefore more male surgeons are married than female.

3. Many men out there still want to be the breadwinner. They are intimidated by strong, independent women. They see these kind of women as collegues, but not as potential mates.

4. I am very independent and motivated. I know what i want in a potential partner and am not willing to settle for less. I am sure i could find some loser out there to date me but i'm not willing to settle.

These are some of the theories that are thrown around by me and the other single surgical women in my program. There are some that have a solid relationship and they seem to make it work. I have hope that i will eventually get married and have a family; but i know i'll have a much more difficult time than the average women.
 

hippanonymous

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Am I the only one who wants to go out with tussy? I don't think she'd have me though. She see's the real world (good and bad) and makes what sounds like reasoned decisions. Sounds cute too. 120 hours a week is a lot though...

There's probably a happy medium somewhere between homemaker and 120hrs/week. I guess it's derm.

I wonder (and I'm not trying to be an a_$) what you all think your children will think about your priorities. I'm not trying to discourage especially since you're residents already, but you have to admit that your kids will want to see you more than the average surgeon's schedule allows. Isn't that a concern? It really seems like a bigger question than the husband issue since your husbands enter into it with eyes open while your kids are born expecting a mother.
 

delchrys

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tussy said:
Well said Kimberli and Foxy.

For those out there that don't know me (i've not posted much in the past few months) i am a senior, female gen surg resident, and yes, i am single. I am not ugly (i've actually been described as attractive). I am 5'5", 125 lbs, long hair, pretty face. And, yes, once again, i am single. I am not a bitch either. My coworkers, nurses, students, etc. all think i'm nice. I've worked very very hard to have a good working relationship with these people. Yes, many female residents can be bitches (no wonder considering how we're treated, you have to react somehow). So, why am I, and others like me single??

Well there are several reasons:

1. I work 120 hours/week (i am in Canada -- no 80 hr work rule here). IN addition to call, i am often paged at odd times when something is wrong with a patient i operated on and i am expected to respond and will actually go see my patient if they are unwell. This is my responsibilty and part of the job. This does not go over well, if on a date. But, more importantly, it limits the ability to actually get out and meet someone.

2. There are many women out there that want to be a "happy homemaker" have lots of money and not work, and pop out babies, and spend their time making their husband happy. These woman are very attracted to a male surgeon. There does not seem to be a male equivalent to this, and therefore more male surgeons are married than female.

3. Many men out there still want to be the breadwinner. They are intimidated by strong, independent women. They see these kind of women as collegues, but not as potential mates.

4. I am very independent and motivated. I know what i want in a potential partner and am not willing to settle for less. I am sure i could find some loser out there to date me but i'm not willing to settle.

These are some of the theories that are thrown around by me and the other single surgical women in my program. There are some that have a solid relationship and they seem to make it work. I have hope that i will eventually get married and have a family; but i know i'll have a much more difficult time than the average women.
i liked your post a lot, tussy. the thing that sticks out most to me, the male partner of an american med student who will begin her surg residency in july, is this: the description of all of your reasons amount to one thing that can be perhaps best paraphrased as "i live a life that centers around my career and leaves little to no room for putting a relationship as my first priority" (and i am not placing any value judgment on this). if anyone wishes to argue against my paraphrasing, please realize that i'm an unmarried male, age 31, pretty decent looking and cool, with a law degree coming up shortly, and to me that lifestyle in a partner is not just a turn-off but a full-out turn-AWAY. why would anyone want to spend their time in a "relationship" with someone who is married already to their job? 120 hours a week, PLUS getting called in outside of that time?

NOW, why is this a comment i felt like i should make? because of the gender difference. Let me explain...some might say (i would be one of the "some") that a lot of women who marry surgeons do so for financial security, while many surgeons who marry hot wives do so for a "trophy" (hence the term "trophy wife"). this perceived need for a partner to provide financial security, which is certainly stronger in women than in men, allows a certain type of woman to subjugate her other desires (having a husband who is around more and who loves her for who she is) in favor of the prime motive of financial security. thus, male surgeons, despite their lifestyles, get wives of "good" quality (as "good" is defined in the handbook of superficiality). now, look at the woman surgeon...how many men make their primary motivation in mate-seeking "find a woman who can support me"? like, none, or very few at best. excepting those very few, most men look for different things, and those things just so happen to be ostentatiously absent from the lifestyle of a surgeon in most cases. so, with a female surgeon, you generally have a woman who has none of the most desired qualities in a woman for a hetero relationship, and some of the less-desireable qualities (again, according to the superficial standards held by many in society!).

i love my woman, and i hope to marry her. i am not looking forward to 7 years of q3 call (minus 2 years for research), sleeping alone a lot without having first done something wrong (lol), and feeling lonely a lot as a result. i AM looking forward to appreciating every moment we get together, adn to raising my kids. she seems to be an exception among surgeons, and among women in surgery, and that's fine by me. she has her priorities straight--family, while it may have to wait for a shift to end at the hospital, always comes first. i know of few people who want to date a robot or marry a person who is already married to their job, and i'm no exception there. i think women surgeons have the cards stacked against them from the outset, though that's not a guarantee of failure in finding a good partner, assuming one wants a partner.
 

double elle

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hippanonymous said:
100 years ago women stayed home and looked after their families. Today women can get any job and have to choose where there priorities lie. I'm all for them deciding to do whatever they want, but you also can't deny what some decisions mean. When a women decides to become a surgeon, it is obvious that family is low on her list (since she won't really have time for one and will be more of an aunt than a mother to her own kids). For men who want a family with a mother, this makes a woman surgeon an unappealing mate. You can pretend that this isn't the case, but you're in denial. Some men don't want a family anyway and don't need to spend too much time with their significant others, so they'd be happy to marry a surgeon. I think this is relatively uncommon though. You can't just dismiss other people's ideas because they aren't convenient. You could try to make a reasoned argument against them, but that's more difficult.
Perhaps this thread doesn't apply to me, because I am already married (whew - won't have to worry about that ol' maid thing the guys are talking about! :rolleyes: ) Personally, I turned down every suggestion to do surgery until my husband pointed out that I was happiest during those months. We took about 8 months to decide on it and finally we decided that it was the best choice for me. We also have a 2 year old daughter. No, my husband is NOT a stay-at-home dad. He actually works full time, makes a great living, and has a second "job" as an avid outdoorsman...meaning...he has a LIFE - which is something many partners lack. We work great together. He supports me and is not threatened by me in the least. His biggest fear is that others will somehow think he married me for money, even though I wasn't even dreaming of med school when we met.

The statement that I automatically put my family low on the priority list comes from someone who is really good at making generalized statements.

We all have strengths. For those of us who have actually had a life before medical school....this whole medicine thing just may not be the worst thing we've been thru. Thus, juggling family and career fits right into how we've lived for years. Time management evens out the chaos...and some of us love the chaos!

Oh, and for the teacher comment....I was a high school teacher before I got into med school.... Teaching was way more difficult that medical school and the hours were actually almost as long (if you wanted to be a good teacher, that is).

Surgeon moms/wives need support. We don't need guilt trips - moms (surgeon or not) go a great job on the guilt without anyone's help. Also, whether someone is attractive or not...wow..please be kind. Everyone wants to be loved and wants to be found attractive.


On a different note...Foxxy or Kimberly...I will be starting surgery internship in July. My biggest fear is simply NOT being bitchy enough/tough enough to handle the criticism that I know will come my way (whether I deserve it or not). I can handle it if I actually do stuff wrong, but I know there will be times when I think I am helping and I get yelled at. I need to not have such a soft heart and not take things personally. Are there any suggestions to this?
 

fourthyear

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hippanonymous said:
When a women decides to become a surgeon, it is obvious that family is low on her list (since she won't really have time for one and will be more of an aunt than a mother to her own kids).
Talk about double standards!!!!! Would you say that a man who decides to become a surgeon obviously has family low on his priority list??? Or that he will be more of an uncle than a father to his own kids??? This is a ridiculous generalization and it's not right that society has to add all this guilt to working mothers all the time. This used to be the generalization used for all working moms and now it's being used only for the most hard-working ones, but it's still not right to hold such a double standard.

Yes, I do feel sad that I am waiting to have kids. I've been happily married for years and do realize that, for me, I wouldn't feel right being a mom during surgery residency. But why is it that my male counterparts are able to enjoy fatherhood during residency without the guilt I'd feel being a monther during residency, without the shameful stares of others who think a woman is all at once not serious about her family OR her career if she chooses to have a child during residenency???

How can they be such wonderful dads being on call Q 4, but I can't be a good mom? We're still back in the 50's when we think a woman has to be the main caregiver to the children, but I admit I've still trapped in this mindset too, partly b/c it seems all of society would judge me this way and make me think I must be wrong if I think I could have a child during residency. Men are taking a much greater role in parenting accross the board, but when it comes to the man being the only one home at night with a child while the wife works...well, I guess too many people still somehow think that means the wife is being a bad mom. There are tons of single-parent families out there raising kids and the kids do just fine as long as they know they're loved - tell me how a 2 parent home with a mom who happens to work a few nights and weekend is any worse on kids than that....or any worse than when the dad works a few nights and weekends??? Now, if you're saying there aren't too many men who want this responsibility to be the primary care giver a few nights a week...well, then, I think you're just saying the men who feel that way are lazy and selfish.
 

delchrys

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fourthyear said:
Talk about double standards!!!!! Would you say that a man who decides to become a surgeon obviously has family low on his priority list??? Or that he will be more of an uncle than a father to his own kids??? This is a ridiculous generalization and it's not right that society has to add all this guilt to working mothers all the time. This used to be the generalization used for all working moms and now it's being used only for the most hard-working ones, but it's still not right to hold such a double standard.

Yes, I do feel sad that I am waiting to have kids. I've been happily married for years and do realize that, for me, I wouldn't feel right being a mom during surgery residency. But why is it that my male counterparts are able to enjoy fatherhood during residency without the guilt I'd feel being a monther during residency, without the shameful stares of others who think a woman is all at once not serious about her family OR her career if she chooses to have a child during residenency???

How can they be such wonderful dads being on call Q 4, but I can't be a good mom? We're still back in the 50's when we think a woman has to be the main caregiver to the children, but I admit I've still trapped in this mindset too, partly b/c it seems all of society would judge me this way and make me think I must be wrong if I think I could have a child during residency. Men are taking a much greater role in parenting accross the board, but when it comes to the man being the only one home at night with a child while the wife works...well, I guess too many people still somehow think that means the wife is being a bad mom. There are tons of single-parent families out there raising kids and the kids do just fine as long as they know they're loved - tell me how a 2 parent home with a mom who happens to work a few nights and weekend is any worse on kids than that....or any worse than when the dad works a few nights and weekends??? Now, if you're saying there aren't too many men who want this responsibility to be the primary care giver a few nights a week...well, then, I think you're just saying the men who feel that way are lazy and selfish.
i am one of the guys who will gratefully stay home to raise his kids.

AND i dont' judge any woman for wanting a career, period.

the one issue i do have, with people of BOTH genders, is when people think that "raising a child" means being there at night. pure and simple, that is why people shoot each other every day in this country--no parental guidance leads to deficient moral development in children. nannies and MTV are inappropriate parental substitutes; just take a look at paris hilton. "mom" doesn't need to stay home, but someone aught to, and it's time people started owning up to the fact that, when a basic standard of living can be had with only one parent working, then one parent needs to get their ass in the home and start CHILDREARING rather than working hard at being the best cog in the corporate machine that they can be so they can earn enough money to buy an extra SUV.
 

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fourthyear said:
Talk about double standards!!!!! Would you say that a man who decides to become a surgeon obviously has family low on his priority list??? Or that he will be more of an uncle than a father to his own kids??? This is a ridiculous generalization and it's not right that society has to add all this guilt to working mothers all the time. This used to be the generalization used for all working moms and now it's being used only for the most hard-working ones, but it's still not right to hold such a double standard.

Yes, I do feel sad that I am waiting to have kids. I've been happily married for years and do realize that, for me, I wouldn't feel right being a mom during surgery residency. But why is it that my male counterparts are able to enjoy fatherhood during residency without the guilt I'd feel being a monther during residency, without the shameful stares of others who think a woman is all at once not serious about her family OR her career if she chooses to have a child during residenency???

How can they be such wonderful dads being on call Q 4, but I can't be a good mom? We're still back in the 50's when we think a woman has to be the main caregiver to the children, but I admit I've still trapped in this mindset too, partly b/c it seems all of society would judge me this way and make me think I must be wrong if I think I could have a child during residency. Men are taking a much greater role in parenting accross the board, but when it comes to the man being the only one home at night with a child while the wife works...well, I guess too many people still somehow think that means the wife is being a bad mom. There are tons of single-parent families out there raising kids and the kids do just fine as long as they know they're loved - tell me how a 2 parent home with a mom who happens to work a few nights and weekend is any worse on kids than that....or any worse than when the dad works a few nights and weekends??? Now, if you're saying there aren't too many men who want this responsibility to be the primary care giver a few nights a week...well, then, I think you're just saying the men who feel that way are lazy and selfish.
You make a good point about parenting being a team effort--sometimes people lose sight of that. People do need to keep their priorities straight and take care of their families--whether male or female. Both have an important part to play in raising their children.
 

trauma_junky

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dry dre said:
Glad someone had the balls, err, reciprocal gonads to say this.

(Okay Steinems and Friedans of the world, I'm only kidding)
They have a fever! And that fever can only be cured by more cow bell!
 

SteadyEddy

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One thing that my wife and I agree on is that based on the current situation in society, Dentistry certainly appears much more suited for women that want to have children at a younger age. Take this anecdotal situation: Recent grad of NC dental school will START at 165k. No call. Less than 30k in debt. 25!
I do think that women in surgery are continuing to shape the field to tailor their needs...as they should! Women turn out to be great Surgeons...just like men. Face it, the leadership does consist of women that have made great contributions to the field. If I had the opportunity, I would do best to accomodate those that needed it too. Just wanted to give my 2 cents.
fourthyear said:
Talk about double standards!!!!! Would you say that a man who decides to become a surgeon obviously has family low on his priority list??? Or that he will be more of an uncle than a father to his own kids??? This is a ridiculous generalization and it's not right that society has to add all this guilt to working mothers all the time. This used to be the generalization used for all working moms and now it's being used only for the most hard-working ones, but it's still not right to hold such a double standard.

Yes, I do feel sad that I am waiting to have kids. I've been happily married for years and do realize that, for me, I wouldn't feel right being a mom during surgery residency. But why is it that my male counterparts are able to enjoy fatherhood during residency without the guilt I'd feel being a monther during residency, without the shameful stares of others who think a woman is all at once not serious about her family OR her career if she chooses to have a child during residenency???

How can they be such wonderful dads being on call Q 4, but I can't be a good mom? We're still back in the 50's when we think a woman has to be the main caregiver to the children, but I admit I've still trapped in this mindset too, partly b/c it seems all of society would judge me this way and make me think I must be wrong if I think I could have a child during residency. Men are taking a much greater role in parenting accross the board, but when it comes to the man being the only one home at night with a child while the wife works...well, I guess too many people still somehow think that means the wife is being a bad mom. There are tons of single-parent families out there raising kids and the kids do just fine as long as they know they're loved - tell me how a 2 parent home with a mom who happens to work a few nights and weekend is any worse on kids than that....or any worse than when the dad works a few nights and weekends??? Now, if you're saying there aren't too many men who want this responsibility to be the primary care giver a few nights a week...well, then, I think you're just saying the men who feel that way are lazy and selfish.
 

jmattwilson

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v-tach said:
You make a good point about parenting being a team effort--sometimes people lose sight of that. People do need to keep their priorities straight and take care of their families--whether male or female. Both have an important part to play in raising their children.
Team effort, I like that, infact it is one of the best things said in this horrendous thread. While children certainly have a closer bond with their mother (force of nature) they also need a caring father.
I am a male (obvious by my handle), married, no children, and will be starting my surgical internship this year. My wife knows it is going to be tough getting adjusted after this wonderful year of Vacation ie, fourth year, but she completely understands that it is the only field in medicine I loved. I think there are men who would love a woman in surgery. My mother is a proffesor of mathematics (every bit as much a boys club as surgery), and she finished her PhD while I was <10yo and I turned out fine, succesful with a good moral character. Therefore I think it is possible for a woman to be a good surgeon and a mother as long as she truely loves the child. To say a mother doesn't love her children just because she works a lot is a falicy. While Paris Hilton is the ultimate example of corrupt american materialism we cant say her mother didnt love her. Actually why the H#@$ are we talking about that trashy ho. Back to the point all the stereotyping in this thread needs to stop.
 

Celiac Plexus

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double elle said:
I will be starting surgery internship in July. My biggest fear is simply NOT being bitchy enough/tough enough to handle the criticism that I know will come my way (whether I deserve it or not). I can handle it if I actually do stuff wrong, but I know there will be times when I think I am helping and I get yelled at. I need to not have such a soft heart and not take things personally. Are there any suggestions to this?
omfg. this is a scary statement.

first, don't be "bitchy" under any circumstances.

second, you will get some criticism (hopefully not in the form of yelling but that's a possibility) and that's a key part of the educational process.

third, i'm glad that you think you can handle criticism. frankly, it's not only important for surgical training that you can handle criticism, but for life in general... but i'm sure you already knew that.

fourth, there will be times when you think you are helping a situation, but you will not be. being able to recognize these situations may not be easy at first. it's part of the learning process, and no one expects you to be perfect on day one (or day 10,000 for that matter). hopefully people will point these situations out to you in a professional manner. but if that's not the case, getting "bitchy" about that will only make things worse. learn to bend like a reed....

finally, you appear to have the misconception that it is necessary to be "bitchy" to be a successful surgical trainee. there is nothing farther from the truth. your fellow residents, attendings, and patients will form opinions of you during all kinds of situations... hard ones and easy ones. the most respected and beloved residents/attendings are the ones that stay calm and professional under any circumstance. those that don't scream, stay calm, and respectful even when the situation is suboptimal are the ones that are the most respected. try to be like that instead of being the "bitchy", tough badass. if anything, DO have a "soft heart"... for your patients especially, and for your fellow resident trainees. do not lose that side of you since it will eventually be what is responsible for getting you, your patients, and fellow trainees through the really rough patches.
 

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Thank you for this thread.

I am seeing some interesting remarks on both sides. You all know where I stand, so I wont say much else, other than keep up the good work, and keep being good to your partner/spouse/significant other.
 

double elle

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Celiac Plexus said:
omfg. this is a scary statement.

first, don't be "bitchy" under any circumstances.

second, you will get some criticism (hopefully not in the form of yelling but that's a possibility) and that's a key part of the educational process.

third, i'm glad that you think you can handle criticism. frankly, it's not only important for surgical training that you can handle criticism, but for life in general... but i'm sure you already knew that.

fourth, there will be times when you think you are helping a situation, but you will not be. being able to recognize these situations may not be easy at first. it's part of the learning process, and no one expects you to be perfect on day one (or day 10,000 for that matter). hopefully people will point these situations out to you in a professional manner. but if that's not the case, getting "bitchy" about that will only make things worse. learn to bend like a reed....

finally, you appear to have the misconception that it is necessary to be "bitchy" to be a successful surgical trainee. there is nothing farther from the truth. your fellow residents, attendings, and patients will form opinions of you during all kinds of situations... hard ones and easy ones. the most respected and beloved residents/attendings are the ones that stay calm and professional under any circumstance. those that don't scream, stay calm, and respectful even when the situation is suboptimal are the ones that are the most respected. try to be like that instead of being the "bitchy", tough badass. if anything, DO have a "soft heart"... for your patients especially, and for your fellow resident trainees. do not lose that side of you since it will eventually be what is responsible for getting you, your patients, and fellow trainees through the really rough patches.

I guess I didn't mean "bitchy" in a literal sense...I mean that "edge" that a surgeon has...the ability to walk into a room and control it. Perhaps that comes with training...I hope so. Also, my fear of this now could be that I am afraid to open my mouth the be assertive, answer questions in lecture - like I used to do - because I am afraid the surgery guys will say "hey, were sorry, we thought you were smart...we made a mistake - can we give your spot to someone else?" haha...I know that's ridiculous, but I am more intimidated by them now than before I matched.

As for handling criticism...I do quite well when I KNOW what I've done wrong and I learn from it and NEVER forget it. However, I know some docs aren't approachable and the "hey, can you tell me why that wasn't correct" won't be a welcome thing (I haven't come across this yet...I've always been able to frankly ask, and have received answers). Anyway, I just bring all this up in this thread because so many upper level residents seem to be on here, and this is on my mind a lot.
 

Foxxy Cleopatra

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Elle,

I know what you mean because I struggled with it my intern year- how to know when/ how to speak up yet wanting to be diplomatic/ get along with others at the same time. Others experiences may differ, but I very rarely have problems working with attendings or fellow residents. Technical/ clinical inexperience is expected from interns; I've noticed that it is "forgiven" as long as you have a strong work ethic (example; be able to self-initate to get tests/ notes/etc done, know the details about your patients, be willing to come early and stay late, etc.)

What I had the hardest time learning to deal with is how to handle with ancillary/nursing/non-MD staff when they give you a hard time. I find that I get along with probably 95% of people (I certainly don't look for fights) but you will run into a scrub tech, nurse, etc who will make it a point to try to make you feel bad for learning, try to humiliate you, not want to carry out orders, etc. There is a "hazing" mentality (unfortunately) that still pervades medicine and I've found it to be more of a problem with non-MD's trying to "put you in your place" even when you have not been condescending/rude/etc.

The best piece of advice I can offer about that is don't let them make you feel bad about anything- you are there to take care of patients, learn, and become a good surgeon. Even Debakey and Schwartz had to learn how to do their first central lines/ trachs/ appys. I have become to abhor the "hazing" mentality and rude staff more the older I get and am less afraid to put things in their place when the need arises. Luckily, it rarely comes to that.

Congratulations on matching and it you want to chat surgery, feel free to send me a PM.


double elle said:
I guess I didn't mean "bitchy" in a literal sense...I mean that "edge" that a surgeon has...the ability to walk into a room and control it. Perhaps that comes with training...I hope so. Also, my fear of this now could be that I am afraid to open my mouth the be assertive, answer questions in lecture - like I used to do - because I am afraid the surgery guys will say "hey, were sorry, we thought you were smart...we made a mistake - can we give your spot to someone else?" haha...I know that's ridiculous, but I am more intimidated by them now than before I matched.

As for handling criticism...I do quite well when I KNOW what I've done wrong and I learn from it and NEVER forget it. However, I know some docs aren't approachable and the "hey, can you tell me why that wasn't correct" won't be a welcome thing (I haven't come across this yet...I've always been able to frankly ask, and have received answers). Anyway, I just bring all this up in this thread because so many upper level residents seem to be on here, and this is on my mind a lot.
 

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double elle said:
I will be starting surgery internship in July. My biggest fear is simply NOT being bitchy enough/tough enough to handle the criticism that I know will come my way (whether I deserve it or not). I can handle it if I actually do stuff wrong, but I know there will be times when I think I am helping and I get yelled at. I need to not have such a soft heart and not take things personally. Are there any suggestions to this?
There is a trick I use on myself when faced with any difficult situation like criticism, being yelled at, embarrassment from trying to sound intelligent and failing woefully. It is called cognitive therapy and the psychiatrists use it all the time to treat personality problems (notice I won’t use the word disorder)—the idea is simply this: the crux of any human conflict is perception—simple and short. In other words when you smile at a schizophrenic he/she may actually see u frowning because of a perceptual disturbance. As such, he may react in a psychotic way; this is an extreme situation that results from actually pathology; but it tells us that people’s perception of their environment shapes their personality and reactions. For instance, a 4ft 9inch-mean surgeon yells at you for squirting saline on his blood-stained-gloved at the wrong time—what do u do? Do you (a) cry (b) apologize (c) tell him you wanted to see if he will grow. Your answer will totally depend on the perception of your interaction. Cognitive therapy attempts to shape your perception or even change it from reality. For goodness sakes, if our higher brain can put a man on the moon, it should be able to convince our animal brain that 1. Life is too short to let tANYONE put me down. I get stuck with the bad feeling and they go about their day? Never. 2. As far as you don’t put your hands on me, you can yell as much as you want—I will convince myself that life is good no matter what. 3.Pick your fights very very very carefully there are far too many insignificant battles throughout the day.

I use my brand of cognitive therapy all the time for any situation, even to get myself organized. For instance just the other, I was feeling too lazy to put the NMS surgery book—which I just read—back on the shelf. So, I decided to time myself putting it back and it took me 5 second. So now, I do it all the time without hesitation because my higher brain perceives that 5 seconds of my life is insignificant.
 

Whisker Barrel Cortex

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Its pretty remarkable that at our hospital, as of next years intern class, there will be more female surgery residents than male surgery residents. This incoming class is 80% female. The majority of the female gen surg residents are actually pretty nice, and some are cute. I would have no objection to dating one.

The radiology program, in comparison, is about 85% male and the newly matched class is all male. Don't know the reasons behind this, but its been a trend here. We actually tried to recruit female residents, but didn't get the ones we ranked highly.
 

medstudent2005

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Whisker Barrel Cortex said:
Its pretty remarkable that at our hospital, as of next years intern class, there will be more female surgery residents than male surgery residents. This incoming class is 80% female. The majority of the female gen surg residents are actually pretty nice, and some are cute. I would have no objection to dating one.

The radiology program, in comparison, is about 85% male and the newly matched class is all male. Don't know the reasons behind this, but its been a trend here. We actually tried to recruit female residents, but didn't get the ones we ranked highly.

yeah, i'm the only female in the group that matched into my radiology program (6 total).