T20s that focus on quality of education/life vs. research

[deleted1063208]

I am applying to mostly T20s, but I am wondering if, like undergrad, there are schools that are more focused on teaching and supporting the student body vs schools that just care about research/reputation?

Is this maybe just not a concern with medical schools?

I went to a top "elite" undergrad and did a DIY postbac at a tiny unknown university with very little research. To my surprise, I thought the quality of education at the latter was significantly better because the professors weren't obsessed with their research and actually cared about their students. I'm wondering if there is a similar way to discern between med schools?

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[bpinyourarea]

Why apply to mostly T20s?

 

[LizzyM]

Who makes the list of the T20 schools and what goes into that list? Do you even know? The quality of teaching is not a metric used by USNews. They use NIH funding (40% of total score) for the T20 research schools.

https://www.usnews.com/education/best-graduate-schools/articles/medical-schools-methodology

 

[deleted1063208]

Sorry I should have been more clear - I was using T20s as shorthand for schools high on the USNews list with strong reputations (Duke, Vandy, Columbia, Yale, WashU, etc.).

So given that quality of teaching is not a metric on the list, how can you determine which schools will be better for your education? I am not too concerned about NIH funding.

@bpinyourarea, I am of course applying to all my state schools but these fancier schools have medians that are in line with my stats and I want to apply broadly to give myself the best chance of getting in somewhere.

 

[GreenDuck12]

Sorry I should have been more clear - I was using T20s as shorthand for schools high on the USNews list with strong reputations (Duke, Vandy, Columbia, Yale, WashU, etc.).

So given that quality of teaching is not a metric on the list, how can you determine which schools will be better for your education? I am not too concerned about NIH funding.

@bpinyourarea, I am of course applying to all my state schools but these fancier schools have medians that are in line with my stats and I want to apply broadly to give myself the best chance of getting in somewhere.

Before worrying about the quality of teaching, you first need to be admitted to any school. Once you have more than one option, then you can start to find out more about the quality of teaching. I have yet to hear of a program that doesn't have its own pros and cons.

Personally, one thing I really looked for was programs that did not rank or grade preclinical years because I didn't particularly enjoy the competitive aspect of premedical classes. Luckily there are many programs that take this approach. Another thing I liked was weekly tests as opposed to dedicated midterm/final exams.

I would encourage you to apply to programs you are interested in based on other factors besides prestige. If someone can honestly articulate reasons why a school is ranked 15th is better than one ranked 30th or 50th, then I would place more stock in rankings.

 

[LizzyM]

I know what you meant but I was asking rhetorically why you are using someone else's measure of quality when their values (research, selectivity) and yours (teaching qualitly) don't match up.

You may have to dig deep into the websites and ask some questions about whether the school values teaching, if it is rewarded in terms of promotions (there is almost no tenure in med schools), if there is an organization of medical educators within the school.

You mentioned Vanderbilt: here's their med ed page: Vanderbilt Medical Education Projects | Office of Health Sciences Education

 

[MyOdyssey]

I went to a top "elite" undergrad and did a DIY postbac at a tiny unknown university with very little research. To my surprise, I thought the quality of education at the latter was significantly better because the professors weren't obsessed with their research and actually cared about their students.

The faculty at the small liberal arts colleges are known to be more teaching oriented than the top echelon research universities. Presumably, this is something you heard before you chose your undergrad institution but you valued the prestige of the top flight "elite" undergrad. To the extent they even have more than one option, most premeds, I suspect, care much more about institutional prestige than they do teaching when they decide where to matriculate for medical school.

 

[deleted1063208]

I actually did not know! I wish I did - I didn't grow up in this country so wasn't too familiar with the system. I don't wanna make the same mistakes when picking a medical school so that's why I asked, but you're absolutely right that I'm thinking way too ahead and I should just see if I am lucky enough be even accepted to a single school. thanks!

 

[KnightDoc]

The faculty at the small liberal arts colleges are known to be more teaching oriented than the top echelon research universities. Presumably, this is something you heard before you chose your undergrad institution but you valued the prestige of the top flight "elite" undergrad. To the extent they even have more than one option, most premeds, I suspect, care much more about institutional prestige than they do teaching when they decide where to matriculate for medical school.

This^^^^^. The odds are, if you're gunning for T20, you care a lot about prestige. Pretty much all US MD schools care about their students' success, but what separates an elite school from the others, as @LizzyM has pointed out, is world renowned faculty, cutting edge research, and gobs of grant money, not teaching. Similar to top ranked research UGs, professors at top schools will be obsessed with their research, as will be many of their students.

Do you really care about this, or are you just asking where the teaching is reported to be better between Harvard, Stanford, UCSF, UCLA, Penn, Columbia and Hopkins? Because if you REALLY care about this, then you don't want a top school that focuses on research, which means you don't want a top school.

 

[deleted1063208]

I sincerely want to go to the school that will make me the best doctor. Not interested in reputation. I just made my school list based on state schools + schools where I match the medians in locations I wouldn't mind living in and that happened to include lots of T20s. But I definitely get your point here, thanks!

 

[deleted997951]

OP to answer your question simply I would say out of the top 20 schools UCSF is known for its great clinical training, Uchicago is another school you should have on your list.

 

[deleted804295]

Sorry I should have been more clear - I was using T20s as shorthand for schools high on the USNews list with strong reputations (Duke, Vandy, Columbia, Yale, WashU, etc.).

So given that quality of teaching is not a metric on the list, how can you determine which schools will be better for your education? I am not too concerned about NIH funding.

@bpinyourarea, I am of course applying to all my state schools but these fancier schools have medians that are in line with my stats and I want to apply broadly to give myself the best chance of getting in somewhere.

Look for schools with true pass fail (no AOA)

Gauging good teaching is hard since everyone has different learning styles. If you like PBL then look for schools that prioritize that. If you prefer studying at home look for schools that have non mandatory lectures.

 

[KnightDoc]

I sincerely want to go to the school that will make me the best doctor. Not interested in reputation. I just made my school list based on state schools + schools where I match the medians in locations I wouldn't mind living in and that happened to include lots of T20s. But I definitely get your point here, thanks!

Makes sense. As others have said, apply widely, see where you have success, and then, if you are among the fortunate 20% of applicants who have more than one choice, post again for opinions on which of your options would be best based on what's important to you.

 

[deleted804295]

I sincerely want to go to the school that will make me the best doctor. Not interested in reputation. I just made my school list based on state schools + schools where I match the medians in locations I wouldn't mind living in and that happened to include lots of T20s. But I definitely get your point here, thanks!

Your residency matters much more in making you a good doctor.

 

[Goro]

I sincerely want to go to the school that will make me the best doctor. Not interested in reputation. I just made my school list based on state schools + schools where I match the medians in locations I wouldn't mind living in and that happened to include lots of T20s. But I definitely get your point here, thanks!

Drexel and Albany can do that. U KS and U MS can do that. Hell, my school do that too.

Your job is to get into A medical school, and not be bedazzled by the term "T20", because there's at least 30 schools in that cohort.

And USNWR is referred to as US Snooze and Worst Report for a reason by Adcoms and Faculty. The only people who care about those rankings are pre-meds and med school Deans.

 

[Linachase]

Anyway, if you want to apply to such universities, you need to be sure about your skills. When I was preparing my admission essay for college, I use the service Essay Edge, and they helped me a lot. My editor explained the structure of the paper, and showed all the mistakes I had done, so you will get not only edited paper, but also additional knowledge, that will be useful in future.

 

[Gilakend]

Every top 20 cares about research, that is literally probably the single biggest defining factor as to why they are T20 and one of the biggest advantages of going to one.

If you care about quality of life you should find any school that is unranked P/F with optional lecture attendance. Clinically speaking, any school. If you want to do rural primary care I would argue that going to a T20 would be more detrimental to your education than it would be a benefit (however, in reality, it likely doesn't matter). There really isn't a "best" med school, just whatever is best for you.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

USNWR also has Primary care list which doesn't use research funding as criteria.