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Taking o-chem without gen chem 2

Discussion in 'Pre-Medical - MD' started by torshi, Jul 22, 2011.

  1. torshi

    torshi Squirrel
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    I'm registered for O-chem 1, no lab for Fall semester and I will have not completed gen chem 2.

    Is it alright if i go with it, or is it really necessary to have gen chem 2?

    Just wanna hear some thoughts, and the following spring semester i plan on completing gen chem 2.
     
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  3. Andersen

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    You do not need General Chemistry II to do well in Organic Chemistry. Just as General Chemistry I is different from General Chemistry II, Organic Chemistry is different from the General Chemistry I and II. Organic Chemistry involves memorization (drawing structures, naming structures, mechanisms, etc.) General Chemistry deals with computation.
     
  4. torshi

    torshi Squirrel
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    kk cool, appreciate it. Yea i was wondering because i hear ppl taking it while taking gen chem or already taken it etc..
     
  5. Andersen

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    Organic Chemistry 5e by Brown is the best book to learn Organic Chemistry. Just letting you know.
     
  6. StudyShy

    StudyShy XOXO
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    I have not taken ochem yet, but my sister said that having a good knowledge of acids and bases helps (which is learned in gen chem II) although not absolutely necessary. :luck:
     
  7. centrigeugle

    centrigeugle less qq, more pew pew
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    For the most part, the way organic chemistry is taught doesn't require any specific gen-chem knowledge at all. For the most part, if you can memorize reactions and learn about inductive effects and electronegativity, etc, you'll be just fine.

    However, I personally feel that a sense of "chemical intuition" is extremely important when doing organic. Do you sort of know, on a visceral level, how nitrogen and oxygen and carbon "want" to bond and react? Do you have a good understanding of covalent bonding? Can you see the way various elements in a molecular structure will suck the electron clouds around? I think a lot of this kind of stuff gets built in general, but it's all very wishy-washy.

    So yeah. OChem 1 is going to be a lot of nomenclature and alkane based-stuff, IME, which doesn't require any background knowledge at all. I wouldn't recommend doing it, but most of the quantitative problem-solving you learn in genchem isn't directly applicable to organic, especially in the beginning.

    ETA: Yeah, what StudyShy said - acid/base/buffer and pH/pKa stuff is useful. But again, mostly because it familiarizes you with the chemical environment you're learning about.
     
  8. torshi

    torshi Squirrel
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    yea i also heard that as well, that's why i was wondering ;p
     
  9. torshi

    torshi Squirrel
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    as a replacement or supplement book?
     
  10. Andersen

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    I think your sister is a little mistaken. Organic chemistry uses only a few acids or bases. Strong acid used in a reaction is almost always HCl or H2SO4, strong base is NaOH. OP, you just need to memorize the mechanisms and be able to draw them out. If you can learn how to recognize patterns, you will succeed in organic chemistry.
     
  11. Eric01

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    Organic chemistry I is a separate topic from general chem 2. You do need to know gen chem 1 though, things like Lewis structures, formal charges, and trends in atomic size.

    To do well in organic chemistry you should try to understand inductive effects, resonance structures, and stereochemistry. You know it's basically like any other class really, just put in some time and effort into it and you should do well.
     
  12. LifeTake2

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    Not needed from a knowledge base, but will the school let you? Most schools I know of require both Gen Chem 1 & 2 before you can take OChem......

    Bigger issue is that most schools require OChem WITH Lab, so if you take it w/o lab you are accomplishing nothing, just something to think about.
     
  13. Andersen

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    I've used it quite extensively and I think it is a really good book. It has very detailed mechanisms and the explanations are awesome. If you solve the problems at the end of the chapter you will know more about Organic Chemistry than you possibly ought to know. There are lots and lots of problems and the solution manual goes over the answers in great detail. It is your call though.
     
  14. torshi

    torshi Squirrel
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    i registered for ochem 1 at my university saying i will finish gen chem 2 at my local cc, but that's not gonna happen, and the labs are all filled up for ochem.
     
  15. torshi

    torshi Squirrel
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    Sounds good, thanks again :thumbup:
     
  16. Amba

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    :confused: Orgo II deals with acid/base chemistry all the time. Orgo I was a while ago, but I believe it does too. Pretty much every mechanism so far in Orgo II has had protonation/deprotonation either intramolecularly or via an intermediate, be that water/amine/etc. Knowing pKa values and what affects them is incredibly useful. Orgo isn't straight memorization; if you actually understand why stuff happens, it's a heck of a lot easier.

    To answer the OP's question - we had a short section in Gen Chem II that dealt with intro to orgo chemistry. Not crucial, but helped with early nomenclature. That being said, you'll be fine. The classes and ideas are very distinct and can be learned separately.
     
  17. torshi

    torshi Squirrel
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    :thumbup::thumbup: Appreciate it.
     
  18. StudyShy

    StudyShy XOXO
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    She is a chemical engineering major...but blond :p
     
  19. torshi

    torshi Squirrel
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    :eek::thumbup:
     
  20. Andersen

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    Your sister being a chemical engineering major or her being blonde is completely irrelevant. You merely have to know the basic behaviors of a strong acid or a strong base. A base will deprotonate and an acid will protonate. Thus HCl and water is the same thing as H3O+ and will be used as a proton source in an organic chemistry reaction. Also I noticed a lot of people tend to complain about the difficulty about organic chemistry but I think this false notion of difficulty stems from the fact that Gen Chem is taught from high school and if a person receives a firm gen chem education, gen chem in college is basically a review. Not many people are exposed to organic chemistry before taking the class so this is a truly level playing field for most people.
     
  21. StudyShy

    StudyShy XOXO
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    I think that my sister being a chemical engineering major means that she might know a little about chemistry. It's simply advice.
     
  22. Aromatic Amine

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    Hey OP!

    I am going to give you the advice that I was able to use in order to succeed in O-Chem 1 and 2. This is what I used, and it may be a little different for you, but it should be along the same lines.

    1) The most EFFICIENT way to studying O-chem is to understand the concepts. If you don't understand the concepts you might set yourself up for more difficult times ahead, especially when you get to O-chem 2.

    2) That being said, once you understand the concepts, you can apply it to the reactions and mechanisms [you'll know what I am talking about when you get to that point]. For example, why does a Grignard attack a carbonyl carbon, what makes it so special? If you understand the main picture, O-chem USUALLY [and i say usually because there are always exceptions which you will have to memorize] makes a lot more sense and will become natural to you. Rather than use the "memorize and forget" type of method that most students use [which is fine if it works for you but not the most efficient] try and understand WHY! For example, why does an SN1 reaction occur in a protic solvent while an SN2 reaction occurs in an aprotic solvent.

    Once you understand the fundamental reasons as to why a reaction occurs, "memorizing" mechanisms will be a lot easier. I hope this helps. Good luck, study hard, but study smarter.
     
    #21 Aromatic Amine, Jul 22, 2011
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2011
  23. also practice drawing chairs and arrow pushing :)
     
  24. StudyShy

    StudyShy XOXO
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    and boats. :D

    learn some German....
     
  25. Chops369

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    Holy crap. Disengage your tryhard mode for a minute and stay a while.
     

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