Taking the USMLE a good idea in this case? (please read details)

[MADD!!!]

Hey Everyone,

I know this question has been answered before many times, but I have a rather specific question. I'm a DO student, and I've been noticing more and more on various Psych residency program pages that list cut-off scores that they are looking for roughly a 450+ for COMLEX I and II or a 220+ for the USMLE. I'm not sure about others, but to me it seems like it's much easier to pull off a 450+ on the COMLEX than a 220+ on the USMLE.

So with that said, if a DO student gets a 450+ on COMLEX, but let's say get's a 201 or any sub-220 score for that matter, could taking the USMLE actually hurt their chances?
(I guess with the assumption being that the programs who accept COMLEX would equilibrate a 450 on it to an MD applicant who has a 220).

Any input is much appreciated!

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[darknecrosforte]

We just had a "real talk" with our most credible clinical faculty member regarding residency applications. She had a current 4th year who also ignored her advice with her and they explained why if you actually want good options, you will take Step 1 and do the absolute best that you can without significantly decreasing Level 1 performance.

1. Many of the best VSAS sub-I rotations will have a minimum Step 1 score required just to rotate there. Even at Arrowhead Regional, an EM rotation requires a 500 or 220 MINIMUM. UCLA and UCI want higher scores.

2. PDs are human and will probably rather go with something familiar (Step 1 score interpretation) rather than an "equal" or better unfamiliar thing.

Although psychiatry has historically been one of the most DO friendly specialties, the best places have still been too competitive to not take Step 1 - and it is probably going to be harder for us post-merger grads. Any time you spend researching score stats is time you could have spent relaxing or studying. Just stop and aim for a 300 Step 1.

Figure out how to at least expose yourself to the details of your clinical education while triaging GPA so that you aren't learning material for the first time during dedicated. And start UWorld in January of second year. Learning proper test-taking strategy from UWorld does little good 4-6 weeks before your exam. Always 40 Qs, timed, test-mode, all topics, quiet room with cold air-conditioning. Put mistakes and new info in a UWorld Anki deck with subdecks titled 201X-MM-DD. Profit.

 

[Mad Jack]

PDs did not know how to interpret my Level 1 score more often than not, and ignored it entirely in favor of Step 1. I fully believe I'd have missed out on my strongest interview opportunities if I had not taken Step 1. That being said, don't take it if your NBMEs aren't over 220, as it will hurt you if you fall below a certain level.

 

[UTsksk]

Didnt take step and I think it hurt me from getting interviewed at some places in state and really hurt me out of state. Even though I applied broadly, all my interviews ended up TX and the states around. I did meet my interview # but my comlex wasnt brought up except for them saying "oh you passed all exams". They probably knew what was passing and thats it.

My comlex 1 was meh and comlex 2 slightly above average so numbers wise i wasnt very competitive.

 

[MADD!!!]

PDs did not know how to interpret my Level 1 score more often than not, and ignored it entirely in favor of Step 1. I fully believe I'd have missed out on my strongest interview opportunities if I had not taken Step 1. That being said, don't take it if your NBMEs aren't over 220, as it will hurt you if you fall below a certain level.

Hey everyone, thank you for the responses! I already know that taking the USMLE is definitely advantageous over not taking it. My question is, like Mad Jack pointed here at the end, at what point can IT HURT YOU to take it? If someone gets a 450-500 COMLEX, what Step score should they be roughly getting in order for it to be worth it? Or in other words what score on Step 1 would you get that someone would say "If you just stuck with COMLEX and didn't take USMLE you WOULD have been better off" ? Or is it the case that even if you get like a 198 Step 1 score and a 500 COMLEX level 1 you'd be better off than just having the COMLEX alone. Do you see where I'm getting at here?

Ex. Psychiatry

Ex. Application Information - Family Medicine - EMC.org

(I know the second one is for Family Medicine but same concept).

 

[splik]

(I guess with the assumption being that the programs who accept COMLEX would equilibrate a 450 on it to an MD applicant who has a 220).

only ******s would equilibrate 450 on comlex (which is poor) with a 220 on USMLE (which is slightly below average). I know the websites you linked show this but these are sh*tty programs who wouldn't be able to attract allopathic students and don't know what the hell they are talking about. also beware many programs lie about their cut offs to make themselves sound more competitive than they actually are.

Otherwise your point is - if someone is going to do poorly on the usmles should they take them? no they should not. if someone wants to be more competitive at mid-tier allopathic residency programs taking the USMLEs is a good idea, but only if you are going to do well. if you aren't a great test taker, then you shouldn't and should be aware you are likely shooting for a different tier of residency program (all things being equal).

 

[MADD!!!]

only ******s would equilibrate 450 on comlex (which is poor) with a 220 on USMLE (which is slightly below average). I know the websites you linked show this but these are sh*tty programs who wouldn't be able to attract allopathic students and don't know what the hell they are talking about. also beware many programs lie about their cut offs to make themselves sound more competitive than they actually are.

Otherwise your point is - if someone is going to do poorly on the usmles should they take them? no they should not. if someone wants to be more competitive at mid-tier allopathic residency programs taking the USMLEs is a good idea, but only if you are going to do well. if you aren't a great test taker, then you shouldn't and should be aware you are likely shooting for a different tier of residency program (all things being equal).

This is exactly what I am referring to. I know this is completely subjective, but if you were to place a value on a score for USMLE minimum to get what would it be? Because I completely agree, but I just don’t know what a ****ty score really is! What score would you say that you should get AT LEAST this score on USMLE (based on NBME’s etc) that you should take it vs not.

I know we’re referring to lower tier programs here but I think it’s good point to address. Everyone talks about the best programs but there’s less focus on the forums here for the mid to lower tier programs.

I’ve heard ppl telling me 220+, 215+, 210+ etc. some ppl telling me even a 220 is a horrible score and not worth taking the USMLE for to get just a 220. So this is my confusion here. Even the term of **** score is so subjective from person to person

 

[908377]

Take USMLE
<210: bad, probably will get screened out
211-215: you'll live.. fewer interviews but you'll live
216-219: "okay, I guess give him an interview"
220-229: "solid, interview this dude"
230+ "hmm is he applying to psych as a backup?"

 

[Celexa]

Take USMLE
<210: bad, probably will get screened out
211-215: you'll live.. fewer interviews but you'll live
216-219: "okay, I guess give him an interview"
220-229: "solid, interview this dude"
230+ "hmm is he applying to psych as a backup?"

No one thinks someone with an above average step score is applying to psych as a backup. It's people with low scores and applications that scream interest in other fields that look like they're using psych as a backup.

 

[MADD!!!]

Take USMLE
<210: bad, probably will get screened out
211-215: you'll live.. fewer interviews but you'll live
216-219: "okay, I guess give him an interview"
220-229: "solid, interview this dude"
230+ "hmm is he applying to psych as a backup?"

Thank You Also I agree the 230+ notion applying to Psych backup isn’t true I think. I’ve seen at least for UNC’s Psych program their residents average Step 1 score is 240+!

 

[908377]

Yeah I was joking about the last tier. Of course we have our 260 Step 1 with 10 publications in psych too

 

[Celexa]

Yeah I was joking about the last tier. Of course we have our 260 Step 1 with 10 publications in psych too

And we'll soon get a new view into exactly how many! I think the new charting the match is due out this year and I am verrrry curious if all the anecdata about psych getting more competitive will actually be borne out.

 

[MADD!!!]

And we'll soon get a new view into exactly how many! I think the new charting the match is due out this year and I am verrrry curious if all the anecdata about psych getting more competitive will actually be borne out.

Although I think it’s getting more competitive stats wise, I think the competition for getting a spot is remaining relatively constant. New Psych residencies have been opening enough to keep up with the new demand.

(Based on counting number of MD applicants on the rise compared to how many new positions have become available.)

 

[Lunzio]

I'd go as far to say plan on taking it regardless, continue to take practice exams gauging your status and make the ultimate decision a couple of weeks out. No shame in canceling, but it's a very doable plan to take both.

I took both Step 1/Level 1 in late MS2 and then Step 2CK/Level 2CE in early MS4 within 1 week of each other to maximize my scores. That being said, high Step scores will open doors, but, as a DO, it will still not be enough for some programs. It's extremely worth it to garner as many interviews as possible.

 

[NontradCA]

Better to forgo the USMLE if you think you’re going to do poor (nbmes are good indicators). Better to leave programs with a nebulous COMLEX score that they can’t interpret than a bad USMLE score they can. COMLEX only will get you interviews at most places (in terms of that aspect of your application). That being said, psych seems to be getting more competitive. A good USMLE will certainly open up more doors.

 

[MADD!!!]

Better to forgo the USMLE if you think you’re going to do poor (nbmes are good indicators). Better to leave programs with a nebulous COMLEX score that they can’t interpret than a bad USMLE score they can. COMLEX only will get you interviews at most places (in terms of that aspect of your application). That being said, psych seems to be getting more competitive. A good USMLE will certainly open up more doors.

Exactly, that's the reason I started this thread. I'm just looking for some objective numbers to base in terms of what's a poor score or not. I'm getting the vibe that a USMLE score of 210+ would make it more valuable to have. But below a 210 it would be better to leave to a vague interpretation of a 450 COMLEX equaling roughly a 220 ish in any PD's minds (low tier or whatever) that may assume the case.

Do others agree with this?

 

[DisorderedDoc417]

I say you scrap this non-productive line of "what-if" thinking and start studying... hard. If you want a good school --> Study --> Take the test --> Do your best on the test --> Apply --> Match. Chances are you will fall within the distribution curve. You are unlikely to do so poorly it will matter or to do so well that it will matter. What is definitely true however is that if another student with your exact profile + a step 1 score walks in... he will get the spot before you do.

 

[MADD!!!]

I say you scrap this non-productive line of "what-if" thinking and start studying... hard. If you want a good school --> Study --> Take the test --> Do your best on the test --> Apply --> Match. Chances are you will fall within the distribution curve. You are unlikely to do so poorly it will matter or to do so well that it will matter. What is definitely true however is that if another student with your exact profile + a step 1 score walks in... he will get the spot before you do.

Just the inner-neuroticism in me. Trust me I was hesitant to make this post in the first place, I know it doesn't look good on my part. But just trying to strategize. But I agree putting my guns forward to do the BEST I possibly can.

 

[W19]

If your COMLEX score is <500 with no USMLE, you better use FM as a back up plan... Did not apply to psych, but the PD at my home institution said he would not be a huge surprise to him if step1 average for psych is 228-230 when the new charting the outcomes comes out later this year...

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

If your COMLEX score is <500 with no USMLE, you better use FM as a back up plan... Did not apply to psych, but the PD at my home institution said he would not be a huge surprise to him if step1 average for psych is 228-230 when the new charting the outcomes comes out later this year...

So he thinks that the average for psych is going to go up 4-6 points in a single year, along with one where a ton of former AOA psych residencies joined the match? Alright...

 

[W19]

So he thinks that the average for psych is going to go up 4-6 points in a single year, along with one where a ton of former AOA psych residencies joined the match? Alright...

Maybe he did not take that AOA part into account... I agree that AOA programs will have an effect on average score.

 

[Stagg737]

Although I think it’s getting more competitive stats wise, I think the competition for getting a spot is remaining relatively constant. New Psych residencies have been opening enough to keep up with the new demand.

(Based on counting number of MD applicants on the rise compared to how many new positions have become available.)

I'd actually argue the opposite. If you look at the match data for the past 4 years, the average Step 1 score has only gone up 2-3 points but the number of unmatched people all around declined pretty significantly just from 2014 to 2016. For USMDs the match rate dropped from 96% to 90%. For "independent" applicants (non-USMDS) it dropped from 49% match rate to 40% in 2016 (with DOs having a 77.4% rate, US IMGs having a 32.3% rate, and non-US IMGs only matching at a 28.7% rate).

Additionally in 2016 there were 1,384 categorical psychiatry positions available and 11 remained unfilled after the match. In 2017, there were 1,495 positions available (111 more) and only 4 positions remained unfilled after the match. So even with more positions, there were less that remained unfilled in addition to those lower match rates. Meaning there is greater scarcity.

Exactly, that's the reason I started this thread. I'm just looking for some objective numbers to base in terms of what's a poor score or not. I'm getting the vibe that a USMLE score of 210+ would make it more valuable to have. But below a 210 it would be better to leave to a vague interpretation of a 450 COMLEX equaling roughly a 220 ish in any PD's minds (low tier or whatever) that may assume the case.

Do others agree with this?

That was my strategy, misguided or not. I told myself if I could hit at least a 215 on 2 NBMEs beforehand I'd take it, if not I'd cancel. Didn't hit that on my practice exams and didn't take Step 1. Ended up with enough interviews where I met the "point of diminishing returns" in terms of volume even with a mediocre Level 1. So far no regrets, but we'll see how it ultimately works out in less than 3 weeks

If your COMLEX score is <500 with no USMLE, you better use FM as a back up plan... Did not apply to psych, but the PD at my home institution said he would not be a huge surprise to him if step1 average for psych is 228-230 when the new charting the outcomes comes out later this year...

Disagree. I had a <500 Level 1 (won't get more detailed than that) and had plenty of interviews, at least enough that I'm not concerned about not matching (and statistically should not be). Certainly having a decent Step 1 is better than not having one at all, but I'd rather not have a Step 1 with a meh Level 1 than have a strong Level 1 (or any Level 1) with a terrible Step 1 score.

If that's the case, I'd recommend someone applying to more programs and more broadly than most other people will have to, but I don't believe the field is to the point where FM is needed as a back-up unless one is either very picky about what programs they want or have a seriously damaged application.

Actual psych attendings can say whether or not they feel I'm off on any of these points, but I scoured the data and irl resources pretty heavily before the match season because I wanted to make sure I had the best shot at matching psych that I possibly could. @MADD!!! , I think I'd be considered somewhat of an underdog even in psych given my application (DO with less than stellar stats), so I'd be happy to tell you what I did for the match this year and how it worked out if you want to PM.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Maybe he did not take that AOA part into account... I agree that AOA programs will have an effect on average score.

Right, I don't think psych is going to spike competitiveness. It still is a heavily selective field and unless you got the interest in actually talking to people with severe mental illnesses all day it will not be any less work than IM or FM.

 

[MADD!!!]

I'd actually argue the opposite. If you look at the match data for the past 4 years, the average Step 1 score has only gone up 2-3 points but the number of unmatched people all around declined pretty significantly just from 2014 to 2016. For USMDs the match rate dropped from 96% to 90%. For "independent" applicants (non-USMDS) it dropped from 49% match rate to 40% in 2016 (with DOs having a 77.4% rate, US IMGs having a 32.3% rate, and non-US IMGs only matching at a 28.7% rate).

Additionally in 2016 there were 1,384 categorical psychiatry positions available and 11 remained unfilled after the match. In 2017, there were 1,495 positions available (111 more) and only 4 positions remained unfilled after the match. So even with more positions, there were less that remained unfilled in addition to those lower match rates. Meaning there is greater scarcity.

In regards to this, I look at it in terms of number of USMD's applying, not total applicants. Yes, more and more IMG's will apply every year, but the number of USMD's rose about 100 ish applicants while the number of positions raised by 100 ish spots. And in my logic, after USMD's the DO's are next up. (Obviously not true EVERYWHERE, but for the majority of places).

Also with that, I believe that there is an arrogance component to matching as well. I've heard from at least a few ppl that "Psych is getting more competitive and that US MD students aren't matching," but then when you see where they applied to their notion is "Since I'm going for something uncompetitive, it better be in the TOP residencies." Then you end up with over-confident US MD applicants either applying to too few programs or too many specific highly competitive programs.

That was my strategy, misguided or not. I told myself if I could hit at least a 215 on 2 NBMEs beforehand I'd take it, if not I'd cancel. Didn't hit that on my practice exams and didn't take Step 1. Ended up with enough interviews where I met the "point of diminishing returns" in terms of volume even with a mediocre Level 1. So far no regrets, but we'll see how it ultimately works out in less than 3 weeks

See! I'm glad I'm not the only one who had this type of thinking crossing their mind! Really glad you swept up enough interviews! I'll PM you for more questions later. Thank you for reaching out

 

[W19]

@Stagg737

How many programs did you apply to if you don't mind sharing? You can also PM me

 

[908377]

If it helps you here is my snapshot: USMLE <215. COMLEX > 600. PE pass on first attempt. Pass in psych, Honors in IM & FM, if that matters. Did 4 psych electives and only 1 was at a place with a residency program. I got 15 interview invites, 4 of which were from "top tier" programs, whatever that means.

Overall, this is a very different process applicant to applicant, so comparing yourself is of little prognostic value. But I guess my advice to the anxious M3s would be that (a) psych is getting more competitive so all else being equal crush every aspect of the application game but (b) temper your fears of not matching because if you can articulate why psychiatry/program X is a great career fit for you, you can apply broadly and match comfortably.

 

[Mass Effect]

I didn't take the USMLE. I did below average on the COMLEX. Matched at my top choice, a fairly well-regarded program that most here would have said was out of my reach. Disclaimer: I perform a lot better than I look on paper and I had excellent letters and was told I had a great interview.

 

[QueenJames]

If your COMLEX score is <500 with no USMLE, you better use FM as a back up plan... Did not apply to psych, but the PD at my home institution said he would not be a huge surprise to him if step1 average for psych is 228-230 when the new charting the outcomes comes out later this year...

LMAO

228-230?

Dude.

What are you SMOKING because I WOULD LOVEEEE to take a hit of that stuff.

For those of y'all interested in Psych.... please don't listen to W19.

People like him/her like to spout a bunch of informal material with no actual basis behind it and project their neuroticism upon others.

Makes sense why you are doing Internal Medicine now! lol

Psych is looking for scores... yes... but FIT actually matters in psych.

Not every 240+ scorer out there is FIT to be a shrink.

It's one of the last few specialties that requires actual interest in it rather than board scores and lazy students that simply want to look at lifestyle only.

For the love of all that is holy... Psych does not need more pill-pushers who want to clock in and clock out. I'm sure that psych PDs are good at ruling y'all kind out of the specialty.

 

[QueenJames]

Take USMLE
<210: bad, probably will get screened out
211-215: you'll live.. fewer interviews but you'll live
216-219: "okay, I guess give him an interview"
220-229: "solid, interview this dude"
230+ "hmm is he applying to psych as a backup?"

EXACTLY!

People don't realize that plenty of people are still applying to Psych as a backup as not everybody is truly interested in "mental health".

For all that I know (and not to ruffle anybody's feathers).... the folks that are all ranked at the bottom of our DO class are interested in Psych or FM.

It is getting competitive indeed but that's because every specialty is seeing an increase in board scores across the board.

Please do not let SDN scare those of you who are worried.

Try your best and let the chips fall where they fall.

 

[MADD!!!]

I don’t even think it’s getting more competitive. Certain programs will be as the number of MD applicants for Psych is going up, but again when you compare the growth of new Psych positions to the increase in applicants (talking US applicants only, not total), they are roughly equal.

But with this said, I could easily see more MD’s not matching because of their mindset of “if I’m going for a non competitive speciality, it better be at the best residency in America” and thus either applying to narrow geographically or only to the most competitive places.

 

[QueenJames]

I don’t even think it’s getting more competitive. Certain programs will be as the number of MD applicants for Psych is going up, but again when you compare the growth of new Psych positions to the increase in applicants (talking US applicants only, not total), they are roughly equal.

But with this said, I could easily see more MD’s not matching because of their mindset of “if I’m going for a non competitive speciality, it better be at the best residency in America” and thus either applying to narrow geographically or only to the most competitive places.

You make a good point.

Those who are shooting for top-tanked places like Stanford in Palo Alto won't necessarily be trying to go for or apply to a program like Kern Medical center in Bakersfield, which is an IMG hot spot filled with Caribbean students (since money talks and all).

 

[MacDonaldTriad]

You make a good point.

Those who are shooting for top-tanked places like Stanford in Palo Alto won't necessarily be trying to go for or apply to a program like Kern Medical center in Bakersfield, which is an IMG hot spot filled with Caribbean students (since money talks and all).

 

[QueenJames]

View attachment 230233

I goes to Stanfuhd.

Ya go to Yale? huh?

Yuh's a Yale boy?

Or betta yet...

Hahvuhdddd?

 

[MADD!!!]

You make a good point.

Those who are shooting for top-tanked places like Stanford in Palo Alto won't necessarily be trying to go for or apply to a program like Kern Medical center in Bakersfield, which is an IMG hot spot filled with Caribbean students (since money talks and all).

They really don’t! I know a student from UCLA who said UCLA Harbor is garbage. I’m like hellooo... that’s a DREAM spot for me. Yes ego complexes run very high at higher ranked medical schools.

In general I’ve noticed DO’s hope to match into a specialty of their choice, preferably at locations but more open to living wherever they need to. MD’s are more specific about wanting to match at specific programs, with lower ranked programs in the same specialties being “worst case scenarios” (aka they worry more about just matching in an undesired location vs DOs worrying about not matching into that specialty anywhere).

 

[IsWhat]

EXACTLY!

People don't realize that plenty of people are still applying to Psych as a backup as not everybody is truly interested in "mental health".

For all that I know (and not to ruffle anybody's feathers).... the folks that are all ranked at the bottom of our DO class are interested in Psych or FM.

It is getting competitive indeed but that's because every specialty is seeing an increase in board scores across the board.

Please do not let SDN scare those of you who are worried.

Try your best and let the chips fall where they fall.

I talked directly to a PD of a mid-tier academic program over the summer during a research internship, and he said matter of factly last year had the strongest set of applicants psychiatry has seen in a long time. Psychiatry PDs in the past haven’t had the luxury of filtering candidates with board scores like other specialties and were forced to use more holistic methods to sift through applications, but those days are quickly coming to an end.

I’m not saying psych is some crazy competetive specialty, but not matching into psychiatry is very real now and should not be taken lightly.

 

[QueenJames]

I talked directly to a PD of a mid-tier academic program over the summer during a research internship, and he said matter of factly last year had the strongest set of applicants psychiatry has seen in a long time. Psychiatry PDs in the past haven’t had the luxury of filtering candidates with board scores like other specialties and were forced to use more holistic methods to sift through applications, but those days are quickly coming to an end.

I’m not saying psych is some crazy competetive specialty, but not matching into psychiatry is very real now and should not be taken lightly.

Totally see where you are coming from my man... but a lot of community places still are on the table too... no?

I'm not saying that those who have a sub 210 will waltz on in... but scores are going up across every specialty and it's just the nature of the beast nowadays.

I still believe that fit and an "ok" score will get you into psych if you don't necessarily have a desire for "namebrand" places.

But totally see where you are coming from. You always got quality stuff to share on here so I appreciate your insight!

 

[starri]

For all that I know (and not to ruffle anybody's feathers).... the folks that are all ranked at the bottom of our DO class are interested in Psych or FM.

It's also entirely possible that those people actually want to do psych. Hell, if I'd gotten a 250+ on USMLE, I still would have applied to psych, because A) I know I'm good at it, and B) it's one of the few experiences I had in med school that I left happy every day. The lifestyle is a bonus, but considering how often I hear students tell me that they find it really draining, I doubt large percentage of applicants are of the "well, I guess this is all I can get" variety.

 

[MacDonaldTriad]

They really don’t! I know a student from UCLA who said UCLA Harbor is garbage. I’m like hellooo... that’s a DREAM spot for me. Yes ego complexes run very high at higher ranked medical schools.

What do medical students know about such things? The ugly truth is that medical students are not born with these biases, they learn them from their professors. Brand names are a big deal to the people willing to put up with the politics. A lot of brand name places pay the least and take the largest chunk out of your billing for the same reason dogs lick themselves.

 

[MADD!!!]

What do medical students know about such things? The ugly truth is that medical students are not born with these biases, they learn them from their professors. Brand names are a big deal to the people willing to put up with the politics. A lot of brand name places pay the least and take the largest chunk out of your billing for the same reason dogs lick themselves.

I'm sure you're right, and you have much, much more experience than I do. But from their perspective I can see why they see it like that too. In their classes, the lower tier candidates get into these places, so relatively they are going to be looked down upon. Of course the training is excellent I presume, but in an environment where everyone wants to be "the best," there has to be something to be considered worse for you to justify your value against.

 

[QueenJames]

It's also entirely possible that those people actually want to do psych. Hell, if I'd gotten a 250+ on USMLE, I still would have applied to psych, because A) I know I'm good at it, and B) it's one of the few experiences I had in med school that I left happy every day. The lifestyle is a bonus, but considering how often I hear students tell me that they find it really draining, I doubt large percentage of applicants are of the "well, I guess this is all I can get" variety.

Different strokes for different folks man.

This is just MY view on it based on what I have seen from my sample size DO class of 150-200 students.

A huge majority of the people at the bottom of the class are ALL pursuing psych and are open about it and strictly don't like the actual basic science of the human systems like GI... Renal... cardio... and I do not blame them.

Psych is an art in my honest opinion and is probably the least "sciencey" of all of the blocks... despite it's tie-ins into neurology here and there.... hence why it is left to the END of our curriculum.

I'm not crapping on psych at all... but all I'm saying is that Psychiatry isn't for everybody... and some of us would rather see 10 diabetics and htn patients for mind-numbing refills rather than the schizophrenic.

I'm happy you are passionate about your field man. The world needs more good shrinks!

 

[QueenJames]

What do medical students know about such things? The ugly truth is that medical students are not born with these biases, they learn them from their professors. Brand names are a big deal to the people willing to put up with the politics. A lot of brand name places pay the least and take the largest chunk out of your billing for the same reason dogs lick themselves.

shhh! Why are you letting out the secret doc???

 

[starri]

I'm not crapping on psych at all

See, it kind of feels like you are.

I'm probably coming across as more confrontational that I mean to be, but what I'm getting from your comments is that lower performance = settling for psych. I think an equally plausible explanation, for at least some of the people, is that liking psych = less need to gun.

I also know ambulatory medicine bores the hell out of me, even when I find subspecialties (rheum and endo) kind of interesting.

 

[uhmocksuhsillen]

Would most recommend Step 2 (considering doing it early june) if I have a low 240s step 1? Is the reward bigger than the risk of dropping a few points? DO student fwiw.

 

[Blitz2006]

Different strokes for different folks man.

This is just MY view on it based on what I have seen from my sample size DO class of 150-200 students.

A huge majority of the people at the bottom of the class are ALL pursuing psych and are open about it and strictly don't like the actual basic science of the human systems like GI... Renal... cardio... and I do not blame them.

Psych is an art in my honest opinion and is probably the least "sciencey" of all of the blocks... despite it's tie-ins into neurology here and there.... hence why it is left to the END of our curriculum.

I'm not crapping on psych at all... but all I'm saying is that Psychiatry isn't for everybody... and some of us would rather see 10 diabetics and htn patients for mind-numbing refills rather than the schizophrenic.

I'm happy you are passionate about your field man. The world needs more good shrinks!

"Psych is an art in my honest opinion and is probably the least "sciencey" of all of the blocks... despite it's tie-ins into neurology here and there.... hence why it is left to the END of our curriculum."

I agree and disagree with this statement. You are right, psych is an art. But you can say that about any specialty. Surgeons talk about surgery as an "art". I had an orthopod tell me he has done over 1 million knee replacements, but he doesn't get bored because he views it as an art that he is still perfecting, and he has his own individual approach.

Least sciency? Not sure about that either. You are correct, you can take a less science approach in psychiatry. But there is also a very hardcore, concrete area of psychiatry that involves psychopharm/neuroimaging/neuroscience, etc.

 

[Blitz2006]

And we'll soon get a new view into exactly how many! I think the new charting the match is due out this year and I am verrrry curious if all the anecdata about psych getting more competitive will actually be borne out.

Yep.

But as of 2016, mean score that matched was 224 and those that did not match was 214. I believe mean score in 2014 was 220 (matched). So roughly 2 pt increase each year (which is roughly consistent in that scores are just going up in general).

So its a safe guess that 228 will be the mean score of matched applicants for 2018. If its 229 or above, then competitiveness in psych is probably increasing, but of course, will have to also confirm by analyzing other specialty mean match scores.

https://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Charting-Outcomes-US-Allopathic-Seniors-2016.pdf

 

[psychEpath]

They really don’t! I know a student from UCLA who said UCLA Harbor is garbage. I’m like hellooo... that’s a DREAM spot for me. Yes ego complexes run very high at higher ranked medical schools.

1. That person is an idiot
2. Harbor is super competitive
3. Harbor (it’s not right) hasn’t taken an osteopath in the last 5 years or so and probably will not any time soon

Good luck

 

[MADD!!!]

1. That person is an idiot
2. Harbor is super competitive
3. Harbor (it’s not right) hasn’t taken an osteopath in the last 5 years or so and probably will not any time soon

Good luck

I’m saying a UCLA med student told me this. For them it’s considered much less competitive than for DO’s. That was the point of my post.

 

[starri]

3. Harbor (it’s not right) hasn’t taken an osteopath

Osteopathic physician or DO. Osteopaths are basically chiropractors.

Sorry, pet peeve.

 

[psychEpath]

I’m saying a UCLA med student told me this. For them it’s considered much less competitive than for DO’s. That was the point of my post.

Got it. That ucla student is absolutely wrong though, just fyi. Ucla med students have gone unmatched in psychiatry (though they probably limited themselves geographically). Psychiatry has changed (I don’t care what some people on here say) in the past 3 years or so.

 

[MADD!!!]

Got it. That ucla student is absolutely wrong though, just fyi. Ucla med students have gone unmatched in psychiatry (though they probably limited themselves geographically). Psychiatry has changed (I don’t care what some people on here say) in the past 3 years or so.

I agree. And to be fair, this person did tell me this a few years back. (I'd say 3-4 years ago). But it was shocking to me even then because for me that's still a DREAM spot to be for residency. It definitely has too... I have a friend applying from another UC with a 250+ score and she's hoping she'll match (Albeit again applying to top Psych programs near the LA vicinity) but still she's a bit on edge too. I told her if she doesn't match, we're all screwed, lmao.

Point is, no one feels safe anymore. You even go on FM and programs all say they get 500-800+ apps for like 10-15 positions, and they still need ways to chop down the amount of students they can interview.