Taste of how competitive it has gotten in the last 10-15yrs

[blankguy]

I was researching dental schools when I stumbled upon a really old Marquette literature with old stats. How old? Class profile of 1990-91
This is what it stated for 1990-91
number of applicants:757
size of class:64
Men: 41(64%) Women: 23(36%)
Average age:24
Range of ages: 20-42
Mean GPA: 2.81
Mean DAT:
Acad. Avg: 15.6 PAT Avg: 15.8

Granted the DAT is not the same as back then but still you get the idea.
Compare that with the stats shown at their admissions info page
here

There are other factors at work here such as the relative attractiveness of the career now than back 10-15yrs ago. This shows some dramatic increase in competitiveness of the field.

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[babobabo]

I was born in the wrong decade, fo sho

I was researching dental schools when I stumbled upon a really old Marquette literature with old stats. How old? Class profile of 1990-91
This is what it stated for 1990-91
number of applicants:757
size of class:64
Men: 41(64%) Women: 23(36%)
Average age:24
Range of ages: 20-42
Mean GPA: 2.81
Mean DAT:
Acad. Avg: 15.6 PAT Avg: 15.8

Granted the DAT is not the same as back then but still you get the idea.
Compare that with the stats shown at their admissions info page
here

There are other factors at work here such as the relative attractiveness of the career now than back 10-15yrs ago. This shows some dramatic increase in competitiveness of the field.

 

[mvs04]

yeah it is more competitive nowadays. My pops graduated from Buffalo Dental mid 90s, he didn't even apply... the school called him up and invited him for a tour, he showed up and started taking classes a week later.

 

[blankguy]

Tufts in their newsletter dated 3/28/05 is reporting that they have received 2947 applications, highest number since 1978

 

[JakeMUSC]

Tufts in their newsletter dated 3/28/05 is reporting that they have received 2947 applications, highest number since 1978

Yeah..... wow....with the increasing US population, shouldnt more Dental schools open to meet the demands?!

 

[mg777]

Yeah..... wow....with the increasing US population, shouldnt more Dental schools open to meet the demands?!

Some schools are increasing the class size, but I dont think any state that already has one public dental school is going to open another publicly funded dental school. Here in FL, dentists had a fit when a private dental school, Nova, opened up and there was already 1 public dental school a few hundred miles north in Gainsville(i.e. UFCD). As someone about to enter the first year of D school, I would not like to see more dental schools opening up.

 

[msf41]

I think grade inflation is a factor in almost all levels of education across the board. Back in the day letter grades meant something different.

Old school
A = over acheiver
B = doing good
C = average
D = needs improvement
F = you get beat by your father

Today the standard is more like:
A = expected
B = quit wasting so much time on the internet and study
C = you basic level of education needed for manual labor jobs
D = maybe we should have you checked for brain damage
F = get used to saying "would you like fries with that??"

 

[blankguy]

I think grade inflation is a factor in almost all levels of education across the board. Back in the day letter grades meant something different.

Old school
A = over acheiver
B = doing good
C = average
D = needs improvement
F = you get beat by your father

Today the standard is more like:
A = expected
B = quit wasting so much time on the internet and study
C = you basic level of education needed for manual labor jobs
D = maybe we should have you checked for brain damage
F = get used to saying "would you like fries with that??"

Very unlikely. The faculty at most schools have for the large part stayed the same with a little turnover over a 10-15 year period.

 

[mvs04]

there was a study done on millionaires, their average college GPA was 2.9.

Grades don't mean jack crap except in these academic hoops which we have to jump through just to be able to poke around in someoen's mouth.

I think grade inflation is a factor in almost all levels of education across the board. Back in the day letter grades meant something different.

Old school
A = over acheiver
B = doing good
C = average
D = needs improvement
F = you get beat by your father

Today the standard is more like:
A = expected
B = quit wasting so much time on the internet and study
C = you basic level of education needed for manual labor jobs
D = maybe we should have you checked for brain damage
F = get used to saying "would you like fries with that??"

 

[EyeAmCommi]

I think grade inflation is a factor in almost all levels of education across the board. Back in the day letter grades meant something different.

Old school
A = over acheiver
B = doing good
C = average
D = needs improvement
F = you get beat by your father

Today the standard is more like:
A = expected
B = quit wasting so much time on the internet and study
C = you basic level of education needed for manual labor jobs
D = maybe we should have you checked for brain damage
F = get used to saying "would you like fries with that??"

I agree with this. Good grades are expected in any profession. How else would one be competitive? It's harder now than ever to get top jobs and entry into good schools. Good grades are becoming more and more important. Check out admissions for the UCs. Even UC Santa Cruz has a 3.81 gpa average. http://www.ophs.opusd.k12.ca.us/uc_admissions_statistics.htm Note: I am assuming that more competition in high school will lead to more competition in college, thereby making it harder to get into dental school.

 

[EyeAmCommi]

there was a study done on millionaires, their average college GPA was 2.9.

Grades don't mean jack crap except in these academic hoops which we have to jump through just to be able to poke around in someoen's mouth.

I'd like to see this study. If the category of "millionaires" includes George W. Bush who inherits his fortune and graduates from Yale/Harvard with straight C's, then I'd be skeptical of the 2.9 figure. Remember, Bill Gates was a student at Harvard before he dropped out to make the big bucks! Grades matter my friends; whether in high school or college they matter.

Besides, better grades = more opportunities. Why sell yourself short just cause a particular endeavor doesn't "require" a high gpa.

 

[EyeAmCommi]

To the original poster, the staff at Kaplan gave me figures on how much dentistry has changed over the decade. Ten years ago, the number of accepted to the number of applicants was 1:1.3 which were damn good odds of getting in. Last year, the ratio jumped to 1:3. The change in ratio is due to a number of factors. But it doesn't take a genius to figure that one possibilty is that there are a fixed number of seats with a growing population which contributes to this rise in competition. However, a fellow SDNer has noted that this is not a trend but it is cyclic. So interpret the numbers however you wish. Is it getting harder and harder or is it just a bubble? IMO, I don't think it is the latter.

 

[DB#1]

Tufts in their newsletter dated 3/28/05 is reporting that they have received 2947 applications, highest number since 1978

Does anyone know why the number of Dental schools applicants droped late 1970's and early 1980's till a couple of years ago?
I always think to why that happend

 

[EyeAmCommi]

Does anyone know why the number of Dental schools applicants droped late 1970's and early 1980's till a couple of years ago?
I always think to why that happend

One possibility could be the economy. The drop in applicants between 1997 and 2002 was due to a "robust economy." http://www.adea.org/DEPR/Assocreportdec2000.PDF Maybe the same logic can be applied to the 70's, 80's?

 

[mvs04]

Bill Gates was a student at Harvard before he dropped out to make the big bucks! Grades matter my friends; whether in high school or college they matter.

He was at Harv. UG. Don't necessarily need good grades to get into the place. Not trying to undervalue the extreme competitiveness of the ol' Yard.... but good grades isn't the way into that place.

 

[reLAXgirl]

I was told that during the 70's the govn't saw a huge decrease in dentists and subsidized the tuition of many dental students to help increase the number of dentists. This caused a huge boom in dental students. This is part of the reason for the shortage in dentists now--the majority of dentists in the states are now at retiring age. Additionally, add that half the applicants are now women who typically work part time, increasing the shortage. So, for those of us that get in that means we are pretty set!

 

[mochafreak]

Gee, it makes me feel so good to realize that I could have easily gotten into dental school in '90, which is the same year I started working on an engineering degree I hated. To make it worse, those grades are going to screw me over when I apply this year. Nothing like making a mistake that lasts for decades... Don't mean to preach, but make sure you're going into dentistry for the right reasons.

 

[The Godfather]

I have to agree with many of the comments here. Yes, there definitely is grade inflation, especially at a lot of the Ivy's. I remembered reading an article in Newsweek a while back so I dug around for it online. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5626583/site/newsweek/ Princeton is changing their grading for the future (if you read the article, half of the students were getting a's or a-'s. In today's dog eat dog world, it's not surprising that the schools want to keep the best stats so they can attract the best applicants (and keep the almumni feeling good about their alma mater). I'm sure this happens at a lot of colleges and universities, but the article's focus was the Ivy's and the like. Things are also much more competitive for d school now (not just d school, but medical school too - I had two friends that got into medical school in the early 90's with 3.1 and 3.2 respectively). I think most of it has to do with the economy being relatively unstable, so people want a career where they know they have a great chance of financial stability. And dentistry's competitiveness is increasing at a higher rate because of the fact that many people that are disillusioned with medicine and it's sorry state are moving over to dental school. When parents who are MD's start telling their children not to go into the profession, there's a problem. I really don't see this trend changing unless a. the system is completely revamped - which is unlikely, or 2. dentistry starts falling into the same potholes that traditional medicine has. I asked a dental school professor about the possibility of the gov't screwing up dentistry like it has medicine (one of questions I asked them during an interview). He thinks that the gov't probably won't bother with dentistry for a long while because, in the big picture of all medical procedures, we are just a small percentage. That was encouraging for the future. Finally, this truly is the "golden age" for dentistry. With so many older dentists retiring, large numbers of women entering the field (who may take career breaks to have children), and the fact that Americans are tending to use more of their disposible income on cosmetic treatments and getting implants (whose prices are becoming more reasonable), it's a great time to be in the field.

 

[Biogirl361]

I still think that overall it is good for everyone that competitiveness is increasing. with more highly qualified students being interested in the profession, the public is better served, the profession gains more respect, and the students who work the hardest in UG are generally those who have it pay off by getting into school (though this of course does have it's problems and exceptions).

 

[asalazar]

Some schools are increasing the class size, but I dont think any state that already has one public dental school is going to open another publicly funded dental school. Here in FL, dentists had a fit when a private dental school, Nova, opened up and there was already 1 public dental school a few hundred miles north in Gainsville(i.e. UFCD). As someone about to enter the first year of D school, I would not like to see more dental schools opening up.

I'm in UF undergrad, EVERYONE here wants to go to dental school.

 

[EyeAmCommi]

I remembered reading an article in Newsweek a while back so I dug around for it online. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5626583/site/newsweek/

That's a great article. I haven't seen anything that solidifies the truth behind grade inflation quite like this. Thanks.

 

[ScorpiORTHO]

there was a study done on millionaires, their average college GPA was 2.9.

Grades don't mean jack crap except in these academic hoops which we have to jump through just to be able to poke around in someoen's mouth.

Funniest statement but very true.

 

[jk5177]

I'm happy that I will be attending dental school in fall.

 

[Bullfan16]

jk5177--We wont be so happy mid-semester when are studying all the time and working our butt off!!! But I do agree its a great time to be in this profession.

About the 70's and 80's....two things happened...one there was an AIDS scare that was thought to affect dentists (as traditionally most dentists werent trained to wear gloves) so naturally most people were scared to go into a field where they could potentially catch a life threatening disease. Dental schools lost out on students who were nervous to go and had to become "recruiters". The second thing that happened was what was mentioned previously....there was a high demand for dentists and the government tried to help out...but they overcompensated and too many dentists were being pumped out of the schools. More graduates were going into practice than were retiring and their was a large surplus. Dentists made as much as their hygenists and some did their own hygiene just to stay in business. My dad was saying there was a time when he was glad that schools would be closing to make the market less saturated.

Now, we are faced with the opposite problem...more dentists are retiring than are graduating each year (if those admitted want to call it a problem)....thus creating enormous competition among the applicants who are trying to get in. Too many schools were shut down and now we face the challenge of worrying about getting a spot at schools with low class numbers. My dad's class in 1971 was 130 (UIC)...now the class size is 64. More applicants and less spots...you do the math. I think eventually more spots will be opened up to compensate for the 3:2 retiree-graduate ratio nowadays (saw that in an Illinois Dental Society magazine) but we have to realize that the application cycle is cyclic...eventually less people are going to apply....and then the trend will reverse. Admissions is alot like the stock market...volatile. For now, I do not think competition will jump as much as it has within the last 5 years, but it will remain this way for probably 2-5 years more until less people apply, more spots are opened or a combo of both. This is just my opinion...take it for what its worth.

 

[JakeMUSC]

Much agreed. History likes to repeat itself. Cycles forever.

 

[12YearOldKid]

I don't think the retiring dentist/new grad discrepancy is as much of a problem as the public health zealots would like you to believe. I'm not saying we should ignore it, but we can't just look at raw numbers either. I saw a study a few months ago showing that the average daily productivity of a dentist has been consistently and significantly increasing every year since the 40's.

Today's dentists need a MUCH larger patient base to keep busy when compared to the dentists of the late 70's. I wish I could find that article and post it here; has anyone else read this same report?