TCU & UNTHSC vs. KCU-Joplin vs. DMU vs. State MD School

[OrexinRules]

TCU & UNTHSC

- MD school and I would be their 2nd class
- Small class size (60)
- Fort Worth is nice (Cost of living high)
- Scholarly pursuit program that requires you to publish before you graduate (helps with residency)
- Pass/Fail
- Duel affiliation with Texas Christian University and University of North Texas Health Science Center ( 2 sets of libraries, offices, etc.)
- Most expensive
- No history of board scores or residency matches
- Farthest from my family

KCU-Joplin

- DO school and I would be the 4th class of Joplin (KC campus is original)
- Cost is not bad
- Cost of living is not bad either
- Joplin is not bad but not as exciting as Fort Worth
- Half of the lectures are online (given at KC campus), Half are given at my campus
- Would have to take USMLE and COMLEX to keep options open
- Respectable board scores
- Class size is 160ish at each campus (both cohorts are together in grading)
- Not pass/fail

DMU

- DO school and the second oldest
- Respectable matches and board scores
- Would need to take USMLE and COMLEX to keep options open
- Des Moines is nice and cost of living is okay
- Class size is 218
- There are other graduate health professional programs I could look into doing (MPH, MS, etc.)
- Not pass/fail

State MD School

- MD school and 50+ years of history
- Decent board scores and residency placement
- Class size is small but not as small as TCU
- Cheapest by a decent margin (20k cheaper than TCU and 15ishk cheaper than DMU and KCU)
- I've been there for undergrad and kind of want to leave
- Town is very boring and small
- Cost of Living is super low
- Not pass/fail
- Closest to my family

Summary
TCU & UNTHSC is really where I felt I would have the most opportunities. State MD is the cheapest and perhaps the safest and most boring. DO's are good but nothing super standout.

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[Trollest]

What's your state MD?

 

[OrexinRules]

What's your state MD?

University of South Dakota

 

[Isoval]

If you have acceptances to all of the above, I would recommend your state school without thinking twice.

As a student at UNTHSC/TCOM who is familiar with the state of affairs at the TCU school, I would heartily give it a pass for a couple cycles if at all possible. It's suffering from a lot of what you would expect of a brand new school.

 

[Trollest]

State MD! Do yourself a favor and don't go to TCU and ... It's not even close.

@Goro @gonnif @Faha

University of South Dakota

 

[DrStephenStrange]

Always choose MD over DO unless it's Caribbean MD or CNU.

 

[Kracin]

South Dakota is the best option (established / close to family / cheap)

If you have a strong desire to get away then you could conceivably choose TCU.

 

[Goro]

Always choose MD over DO unless it's Caribbean MD or CNU.

This.
/thread.

More doors are open to you as an MD.

 

[m1redsox]

Always choose MD over DO unless it's Caribbean MD or CNU.

Is CNU California Northstate University? If so, why do people think it's so terrible? I was accepted there and I am debating between them and Wake Forest. When I interviewed there, the students seemed to be pretty happy with it. Solid board scores. P/F. Pretty normal curriculum. They use past USMLE questions for testing. For-profit status seems to not affect anyone really. Just looking for insight - thanks!

 

[DrStephenStrange]

Is CNU California Northstate University? If so, why do people think it's so terrible? I was accepted there and I am debating between them and Wake Forest. When I interviewed there, the students seemed to be pretty happy with it. Solid board scores. P/F. Pretty normal curriculum. They use past USMLE questions for testing. For-profit status seems to not affect anyone really. Just looking for insight - thanks!

I'll give you 3 obvious reasons:

1) Never trust a for-profit Med school. They're all about the money not the students.
2) No Federal loans available to students. Probably connected to their for-profit status. Meaning private loans with high interest rates and no PAYE or REPAYE repayment options available through federal loans.
3) Match list this year is very similar to any run of the mill DO schools. Not what you would expect from an MD school. Even CUSOM had a better match list than them.

Edit: Go to Wake Forest. It will be a better choice for you.

 

[Faha]

Your state school-South Dakota- is the best option.

 

[m1redsox]

I'll give you 3 obvious reasons:

1) Never trust a for-profit Med school. They're all about the money not the students.
2) No Federal loans available to students. Probably connected to their for-profit status.
3) Match list this year is very similar to any run of the mill DO schools. Not what you would expect for an MD school. Even CUSOM had a better match list than them.

I feel like most of these "obvious reasons" are just speculation/opinion though.
1. They showed us the finances and it looks like they don't even "break-even", let alone make a huge profit.
2. The private loans the students were on didn't seem to bother anyone. Sometimes they had slightly higher interest rates but big whoop. The financial aid people seemed pretty on-top-of-it.
3. I'm not sure if you can judge any school too harshly on their first match list. Everyone I have ever talked to has said that match lists are a poor way of evaluating a school. A lot of it is the responsibility of the students, and my guess is that their inaugural class (that just matched) was a lower-tier subclass of students equivalent to many DO students since it was their first year as a medical school and accepting an offer there was risky.

Do you have any direct experience with CNUCOM?

Edit: I'll add that RVU students don't seem to complain much about their "for-profit" status either.

 

[DrStephenStrange]

I feel like most of these "obvious reasons" are just speculation/opinion though.
1. They showed us the finances and it looks like they don't even "break-even", let alone make a huge profit.
2. The private loans the students were on didn't seem to bother anyone. Sometimes they had slightly higher interest rates but big whoop. The financial aid people seemed pretty on-top-of-it.
3. I'm not sure if you can judge any school too harshly on their first match list. Everyone I have ever talked to has said that match lists are a poor way of evaluating a school. A lot of it is the responsibility of the students, and my guess is that their inaugural class (that just matched) was a lower-tier subclass of students equivalent to many DO students since it was their first year as a medical school and accepting an offer there was risky.

Do you have any direct experience with CNUCOM?

1) I'm sure they would not hide anything shady or detrimental to the controversial aspect of the school finances.

2) Private loans almost always means higher interest rates and no PAYE or REPAYE repayment options available through federal loans. The school graduated a class already and yet they still do not offer federal loans. I'm sure that doesn't sound shady at all.

3) In the case of DO schools, yes, you would be right because DO students lack connections, research, and resources available to us to pat our resume and make us competitive for the match. Therefore it is our responsibility to get ourselves out there and find resources and research opportunities and make connections to succeed. But MD students are almost always better off because their schools usually already have a home hospital attached to them with residency programs and federal and NIH funding, and thus they get connected easily, and have research opportunities and resources available to them on site. So if CNU doesn't have all that what makes it different from any DO schools, and that's why it reflects on their match list as well. The poor match list in this case is a result of the school itself not the caliber of students they accepted. CUSOM, VCOM, KCU, PCOM-GA, ect... average stats were lower than CNU, and yet they did better or similar in the match overall. So basically CNU = DO school IMO.

Do you have any direct experience with CNUCOM?

No, but I've read many articles in the past suggesting that CNU is not well supported in the state of California and that the school had a shady/controversial start, and they are still involved in shady business trying to open their 250 bed hospital (link provided). For-profit status checks out.

https://www.sacbee.com/news/local/article234102712.html

Edit: and I'll add that I would not recommend RVU to any students either. Although, they do offer federal loans and have a good track record, so it's probably better than CNU.

 

[m1redsox]

1) I'm sure they would not hide anything shady or detrimental to the controversial aspect of the school finances.

2) Private loans almost always means higher interest rates and no PAYE or REPAYE repayment options available through federal loans. The school graduated a class already and yet they still do not offer federal loans. I'm sure that doesn't sound shady at all.

3) In the case of DO school, yes you would be right because DO students lack connections, research, and resources available to us to pat our resume and make us competitive for the match. Therefore it is our responsibility to get ourselves out there and find resources and research opportunities and make connections to succeed. But MD students are almost always better off because their schools usually already have a home hospital attached to them with residency programs and federal and NIH funding, and thus they get connected easily, and have research opportunities and resources available to them on site. So if CNU doesn't have all that what makes it different from any DO schools, and that's why it reflects on their match list as well. The poor match list in this case is a result of the school itself not the caliber of students they accepted. CUSOM, VCOM, KCU, PCOM-GA, ect... average stats were lower than CNU, and yet they did better or similar in the match overall. So basically CNU = DO school IMO.

Do you have any direct experience with CNUCOM?

No, but I've read many articles in the past suggesting that CNU is not well supported in the state of California and that the school had a shady/controversial start, and they are still involved in shady business trying to open their 250 bed hospital (link provided). For-profit status checks out.

https://www.sacbee.com/news/local/article234102712.html

Edit: and I'll add that I would not recommend RVU to any students either. Although, they do offer federal loans and have a good track record, so it's probably better than CNU.

Got it. Thanks! This does sway my opinion. It seemed like school had plenty of connections with Sacramento-area hospitals, and I guess I'm not much of a skeptic since students seemed to be scoring well, but I suppose you are right. It's probably safer to attend a more established, well-known school like Wake Forest.

 

[ciestar]

Got it. Thanks! This does sway my opinion. It seemed like school had plenty of connections with Sacramento-area hospitals, and I guess I'm not much of a skeptic since students seemed to be scoring well, but I suppose you are right. It's probably safer to attend a more established, well-known school like Wake Forest.

The lack of federal repayement plans would be the most concerning thing for me.

And for-profit is just bad. Look at what happened to Hahnemann. It is a disaster.

 

[GoldGenie]

Could you please elaborate what you think is happening at TCU and UNTHSC medical school? As a student there I’m curious to hear your thoughts because I have literally zero ideas what you could be referring to. It seems very unfair to OP to make a strong negative generalized statement about the school without details that could heavily influence his final decision. While rivalry among our two schools is expected, there is no need take it a step further. The student affairs department is very open and communicative of all the plans they have set forth. As an actual student here, they go above and beyond in trying to meet students educational needs as well as personal needs. OP if you come during second look week, I recommend stopping by Dr. Franks the Dean’s office. Rather than having an office tucked away in the corner of a building, her office is by the Personal Development Coaches and Meditation Space. She personally knows every student because she makes an effort to get to know everyone. Because TCOM and TCU are separate, their respective school climates are totally different. There is limited interaction between the two school, and as result TCOM students have a very different perception of the school. A few students at the school have immaturely spread false rumors to their classmates which we have tried to correct.

If you have acceptances to all of the above, I would recommend your state school without thinking twice.

As a student at UNTHSC/TCOM who is familiar with the state of affairs at the TCU school, I would heartily give it a pass for a couple cycles if at all possible. It's suffering from a lot of what you would expect of a brand new school.

 

[burgerking12345]

If you have acceptances to all of the above, I would recommend your state school without thinking twice.

As a student at UNTHSC/TCOM who is familiar with the state of affairs at the TCU school, I would heartily give it a pass for a couple cycles if at all possible. It's suffering from a lot of what you would expect of a brand new school.

Could you expand on this? I interviewed there and am curious


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[imbesrs]

Faha cut to the chase but:

MD> DO so we cross out kcu and dmu.
TCU is new (and that current m1 is speaking on some "new school issues")
your State MD has a reputation

My vote is on the state MD.

 

[Isoval]

Could you expand on this? I interviewed there and am curious


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Faha cut to the chase but:

MD> DO so we cross out kcu and dmu.
TCU is new (and that current m1 is speaking on some "new school issues")
your State MD has a reputation

My vote is on the state MD.

Coming from a faculty member of mine who teaches at both schools:
- There are a few antiquated rules/regulations on the TCU side that prevent efficient teaching of physical exam skills or, at the very least, hinder the teaching process.
- The faculty (who are in large part TCOM faculty and have been working together for some time) and the administration (who are new) butt heads on the way some things are taught.

From my perspective:
- The TCU kids are apparently being explicitly encouraged not to join UNTHSC interest groups or clubs (e.g. the groups with DO, PA, Masters, and Pharm students)
- Contrary to popular belief, TCOM did not get pushed out of the way for the new school. If you want to go to anatomy lab in the nosebleed hours of 9am to 11am, be my guest. I cannot stress how nice it is to have afternoon or evening anatomy labs.
- Also, I think frequently running between two campuses that are like five miles apart is ridiculous.

Also, I'm an M2.

 

[imbesrs]

- The TCU kids are apparently being explicitly encouraged not to join UNTHSC interest groups or clubs (e.g. the groups with DO, PA, Masters, and Pharm students)

Wait why??

 

[Isoval]

Wait why??

Beats me. Ask them.

 

[GoldGenie]

1. The school does not use TCOM faculty. This is one of the biggest misconceptions by TCOM students because they assume that since we are on the same campus, we probably have an overlap on faculty. The school has its own independent faculty for everything. The only people who do overlap from my knowledge are guest speakers and the anatomy assistant professors. But all of the TCU school’s professors can be found on the 3rd and 4th floor of IREB of the UNTHSC campus. This is the biggest rumor at TCOM among their students. They are also listed on the school website if you would like to confirm.

2. TCU is completely separate medical school under a completely different accreditation body called the LCME. While
it would be great for the students to join a preestablish club at TCOM, there would be both accreditation issues and administrative issues. They are welcome to partner on activities with TCOM, as long as as they maintain their own student interest group. Accreditation is also the main reason for many things being different. MD medical schools are required to have certain criteria that DO schools are not. This includes having a separate space for its Student Government, a separate Recreational Room for its students, and a separate study space. In the near future this will also include the school having a partnered hospital. It can seem unfair to the other student of the UNTHSC campus because it seems the MD students get special privileges, but it’s not the students fault.

3. Physical Examination/ Clinical Skills. The structure of the whole curriculum is so vastly different from TCOM, it would seem very confusing to it’s students. It does not mean it’s inadequately taught. TCU students begin their Family Medicine rotation in year 1 as part of the Longitudinal Integrated Clerkship to practice physical examination skills and communication skills learned in Clinical Skills class. The school elected a much more in-depth approach which makes its seem choppy at first. But as student completes the cardiology component in didactics, they learn about the cardiology physical exam in clinical skills, and practice it with real patients in clerkship around the same time.

Coming from a faculty member of mine who teaches at both schools:
- There are a few antiquated rules/regulations on the TCU side that prevent efficient teaching of physical exam skills or, at the very least, hinder the teaching process.
- The faculty (who are in large part TCOM faculty and have been working together for some time) and the administration (who are new) butt heads on the way some things are taught.

From my perspective:
- The TCU kids are apparently being explicitly encouraged not to join UNTHSC interest groups or clubs (e.g. the groups with DO, PA, Masters, and Pharm students)
- Contrary to popular belief, TCOM did not get pushed out of the way for the new school. If you want to go to anatomy lab in the nosebleed hours of 9am to 11am, be my guest. I cannot stress how nice it is to have afternoon or evening anatomy labs.
- Also, I think frequently running between two campuses that are like five miles apart is ridiculous.

Also, I'm an M2.

 

[Isoval]

1. The school does not use TCOM faculty. This is one of the biggest misconceptions by TCOM students because they assume that since we are on the same campus, we probably have an overlap on faculty. The school has its own independent faculty for everything. The only people who do overlap from my knowledge are guest speakers and the anatomy assistant professors. But all of the TCU school’s professors can be found on the 3rd and 4th floor of IREB of the UNTHSC campus. This is the biggest rumor at TCOM among their students. They are also listed on the school website if you would like to confirm.

2. TCU is completely separate medical school under a completely different accreditation body called the LCME. While
it would be great for the students to join a preestablish club at TCOM, there would be both accreditation issues and administrative issues. They are welcome to partner on activities with TCOM, as long as as they maintain their own student interest group. Accreditation is also the main reason for many things being different. MD medical schools are required to have certain criteria that DO schools are not. This includes having a separate space for its Student Government, a separate Recreational Room for its students, and a separate study space. In the near future this will also include the school having a partnered hospital. It can seem unfair to the other student of the UNTHSC campus because it seems the MD students get special privileges, but it’s not the students fault.

3. Physical Examination/ Clinical Skills. The structure of the whole curriculum is so vastly different from TCOM, it would seem very confusing to it’s students. It does not mean it’s inadequately taught. TCU students begin their Family Medicine rotation in year 1 as part of the Longitudinal Integrated Clerkship to practice physical examination skills and communication skills learned in Clinical Skills class. The school elected a much more in-depth approach which makes its seem choppy at first. But as student completes the cardiology component in didactics, they learn about the cardiology physical exam in clinical skills, and practice it with real patients in clerkship around the same time.

1) Multiple TCOM faculty moved into IREB following the opening of the new medical school and continue to teach for TCOM. This does not disprove that faculty are shared between the schools. As a further edit, I've now checked your faculty page (Faculty Directory | Fort Worth School of Medicine | Fort Worth, Texas) and can confirm multiple faculty that TCU utilizes that teach at TCOM. For example: Spencer Smith and Taina Trevino. I'm too lazy to find more, but both of them teach at TCOM (Smith -> Radiology, Trevino -> Clinical).

2) I appreciate having a little bit of light shone on this, but I think you've missed my major concern. The separate interest groups are not mandated by LCME and, in fact, the "TCOM" interest groups have members of all schools on campus. I'm not sure why there's this requirement that TCU students run their own, separate entities when those entities already exist on the UNTHSC campus. Moot point about the recreation room, not sure how that's relevant. There is a difference between owning a hospital and being partnered with one. TCOM/UNTHSC is directly affiliated with JPS and has been for many years. The conception is that DO schools do not have hospital affiliations, but most do, and a few own their own hospitals. Over 200 TCOM students remain in Fort Worth under the JPS/Cooks umbrella to complete their rotations, and it is not uncommon for a school of our size to have a satellite or two (we have three - Corpus, Longview, and Conroe). The minority of DO schools - TCOM not included - are forced to send their students to hundreds of satellite sites because they do not have a local hospital affiliation.

3) No comment here. I'm not at all familiar with the TCU physical exam process. I only relay what I've heard from one of the anatomy faculty.