Teach for America

[PanicAttack]

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I don't know if someone has mentioned this already. I was approached by TFA representatives to apply..but heard from my friend that there's only a 20% acceptance rate for it. I asked the representative if it's true and she said it is. So I guess if you're considering for Feb 15th deadline like me, you're gonna have to see if the time spent on essays is gonna be worth it.

It's true that the acceptance rate is low, but unlike med school there is a not a limited number of acceptances. They will accept everyone who meets the standard they have set on their rubric or whatever.

In other words, you aren't competing with the other applicants.

 

[medley]

this is completely true. im a tfa corps member right now and through my experience, believe me, they have standards for everything and track every little detail. theyre looking for specific types of people and basically if you meet all their criteria, you're in. 🙂 pm me if you want more info

 

[abd03e]

Where in houston do you teach? I'm an HISD alum myself.

I teach at Lee HS. It's Southwest side, big TFA supporter school

 

[A Wall]

Most recent and (maybe?) most comprehensive study on the effectiveness of TFA teachers vs. traditional teachers:

http://www.urban.org/UploadedPDF/411642_Teach_America.pdf

Take time off before med school! Teach! Get into a good med school and appreciate how stress-free it is compared to teaching! If you like kids, challenge, and medicine, of course.

 

[notdeadyet]

Teach! Get into a good med school and appreciate how stress-free it is compared to teaching!

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you haven't gone to medical school yet?

If someone finds teaching (especially a teaching gig that they know for a fact that they'll be leaving in two years) more stressful than medicine, they probably had no business being in the classroom.

I was a classroom teacher for five years and have finished the first year of med school (which isn't the toughest year even) and promise that there's no comparison.

 

[MaiPenRai]

I dunno. I did TFA and finished my first year of med school. While med school was hard in that it was hard to stay awake to study, TFA + grad school (mandatory master's program in my region) + coaching + tutoring + a few extra science credits = much harder. TFA was hard. Very hard. And I LOVED my kids. I went on to teach two more years, though not through TFA, and would unequivocally state that TFA was much harder than my other teaching experience and much harder than the first year of med school. That said, they are very different and you will get something different from each of them. I didn't do TFA for resume building, and I can guarantee you won't be happy if you try to use it for that purpose. Teaching in these classrooms is hard because they are so under-resourced and over-crowded. I bought my own chalk, my own overhead projector, pencils for the students...and even though my students were pretty well-behaved for the middle school, I can say that every day was a challenge. Just my $0.02

 

[A Wall]

That's a sturdy limb you're on there, Notdeadyet. I based my comparison on my own experience teaching through TFA, and the experience of the students I've spoken to who've finished TFA as well as one or more years of medical school. My experience: Never been particularly stressed out over academics or other things in general, with the possible exception of the last week of my thesis-writing. Teaching was stressful not because it was hard, though it was certainly hard (for all of the reasons MaiPenRai said). TFA was stressful because you're responsble for >20 other humans, to whom you devote your life, with the very real possibility of never receiving an open show of appreciation in response (though the signs are there, and are what make it worth it). It was stressful because in the schools and communities that TFA places its teachers, your students have lists of issues they're dealing with outside of school longer than they are, and as much as you may want to and may try, you can't solve all of them. Medical school will be hard, of course. There's too much to learn, not enough time to learn it, you're worried about your future, and you're preparing yourself to be responsible for other people's physical well-being for probably the first time in your life. That said, from my own experiences and, even more, those of former TFAers who have finished first year, second year, or all of medical school, I stand by my comparison/prediction... If you really did have five stress-free years of teaching, I envy you, and I don't doubt that you'll roll into your second year and start taking names and kicking ass.

In response to MaiPenRai's warning not to go into TFA to resume build, absolutely. If you go into it with that mindset, my bet is you're not going to make it through, and that's not going to help anyone's resume. I'm just saying that I think that medical schools look on it about as favorably as anything else you might spend a few post-college years doing, so certainly don't avoid it if you're worried about resume-building. It ain't the right choice for everyone, but for some, it's a good'un.

 

[notdeadyet]

Huh. I think part of the higher stress levels in TFA probably comes from the nature of TFA. When you know you are only going to be doing an activity for two years, you have an added pressure to make every minute count and you look around and realize that you have a very finite amount of children who you're going to be working with based on your teaching "career".

When you enter teaching for the longer haul, I think some of that stress is reduced. Also, you have a much longer training period and a lot more theory to build a skillset from before you are responsible for an entire classroom. I think your perspective is changed because you have to get into the right mindset to not burn out, since you will be doing it a lot longer than two years, touch wood.

I have some problems with TFA, as some folks know, based on my concern that it can lead people to incorrectly assume that you are just as qualified to teach with a summer of training as someone who has spent a year doing an established and accredited teaching credential program. I'd actually be more supportive of the program if it took just nine more months and gave the participants the same training that almost all states consider the base level.

But what I don't doubt is the sincerity or quality of folks involved in TFA. And I think its biggest asset isn't so much in the classroom itself, but from the fact that you will take thousands of folks who are usually on their path to becoming doctors, lawyers, and academics and you give them a taste of the classroom. If the fact that MaiPenRai and A Wall found it so stressful is representative of TFA participants as a whole, that's a good thing. It means that these young movers-and-shakers will hopefully vote for education reform and passionately stress that their peers do the same. Just so long as they don't propose eliminating the level of teacher education that educators had worked so many decades to prove is necessary.

Best of luck to new TFA partipants and best of luck in med school for TFA alumni.

 

[A Wall]

Notdeadyet, I completely agree with many of the points you make. I think there's a section from the recent study that actually addresses specifically one of your concerns: "Just so long as they don't propose eliminating the level of teacher education that educators had worked so many decades to prove is necessary." The authors of the study specifically say that of course you can't conclude that there's no merit to the traditional path, and that they think it's very likely that adding a full year or more of education in pedagogy to the particular skills and enthusiasm that TFA teachers bring to the classroom might well lead to even larger gains for the students they serve. I have literally ridiculous amounts of respect for the lifelong teacher who manages to avoid burnout and keeps a passion for their work and the children they do it with, because I know how difficult the job is for myself. That said, the authors do actually conclude that "...[TFA teachers] are just as qualified to teach with a summer of training as someone who has spent a year doing an established and accredited teaching credential program.", as they show that Teach For America teachers produced gains (as measured, of course, by standardized tests--don't get me started) similar to or greater than those of traditional teachers, even ones with significant classroom experience. I think TFA is a great program both for the reason you said (what these transient teachers take away with them), and because I think that putting qualified teachers into classrooms is a good thing, even if they're only there for two years. TFA helps the current teacher's shortage, it doesn't exacerbate it. Unless it was shown that TFA teachers were taking jobs away from qualified long-term teachers, rather than taking positions that would otherwise be filled by teachers who might or might not be better qualified and might or might not stay on for the long haul (since there's ridiculous turn-over with all teachers), I don't think you can argue that their short term of service is a negative.

As a final point of agreement with you, the goal of TFA doesn't actually have as much to do with what its corps members do in the classroom as with what they do afterwards. There are an increasing number of schools started by former TFA members across the country that are showing impressive results with their students, and far more former TFAers keep their experience in the back of their minds regardless of their ultimate career, as you said. I know I won't be an elementary school teacher again, but I also know that my time in the classroom will stay with me throughout my medical career, influencing the choices I make and the path I take. Ahdunno yet what exactly that path will be, of course, but if it brings me back into the same or a similar community to that in which I taught, I'll be a happy camper.

P.S. If you see me on these boards again a year from now desperately seeking help for how stressed out and miserable I am, I'll graciously admit defeat. Well, maybe not graciously, but at least I'll admit it. Enjoy your summer, which will hopefully be filled with something significantly less stressful than medicine OR teaching!

 

[frikarika]

TFA is terrible. TFA representatives are like brainwashed salesmen who prey on unsuspecting premeds looking to "improve" their applications. Three of my friends joined and absolutely hate it, they did it cause they wanted to take a year off and do something that supposedly looks good on your med school app…and now they’ve figured out they really don’t like “helping kids” all that much.

 

[notdeadyet]

That said, the authors do actually conclude that "...[TFA teachers] are just as qualified to teach with a summer of training as someone who has spent a year doing an established and accredited teaching credential program.",

I didn't read the entirety of this document (I'm interested in TFA, but not 45 pages interested) but I do know that other studies have found the opposite to be true: that TFA teachers did not perform as well as teachers with full credentials. Other studies still have found mixed results.

I'm just saying I wouldn't necessarily take this one to the bank. It's one of quite a few studies that have produced mixed results. This study seems very solid, but like any study, I wouldn't draw conclusions from it until you have several other studies verify it.

I think that putting qualified teachers into classrooms is a good thing, even if they're only there for two years.

This is where I strongly digress from the more ardent TFA proponents. You consider BA holders with a summer of training as "qualified teachers". I consider them "passionate amateurs".

This is not any slam on TFA, as their stated goal has never been to produce qualified teachers. It's worth noting that as impressive as a TFA teacher's performance might be in the classroom, if they decide to make it a career and want an unrestricted license to teach without provision, they will need to finish their training via a teaching credential.

We're in agreement on much of this. I don't fully agree with the notion that TFA folks are as effective as fully licensed teachers just because there hasn't been enough study done to prove that to me.

But it's the notion that the summer of training is enough to call a TFA teacher a "qualified teacher". They are not "qualified" by definition (the definition being the long held requirement that you need to go through a traditional full-year teaching program in order to be considered qualified).

The reason this talk frightens me is that if you have enough people buy into it, with the way we treat education, I would not put it past our government to say, "Well, heck, we have 'qualified teachers' with just a summer training, why require the credential at all???"

It may sound farfetched, but if you've worked through No Child Left Behind, you understand how a noble idea can get twisted into something that ultimately hurts the education of our young and the teaching profession as a whole.

TFA gets some of the best and brightest and most perform admirably. They make a wonderful stopgap to a country that has let it's education drop dangerously and they make wonderful education ambassadors. But "qualified teachers" they are not.

 

[notdeadyet]

Unless it was shown that TFA teachers were taking jobs away from qualified long-term teachers, rather than taking positions that would otherwise be filled by teachers who might or might not be better qualified and might or might not stay on for the long haul (since there's ridiculous turn-over with all teachers), I don't think you can argue that their short term of service is a negative.

I don't argue that using TFA to help out an ailing education system is a negative thing. It's great. I just disagree that it's the same as using qualified teachers. A few TFA in a struggling school system? Absolutely. A school system entirely composed of TFA? Not on your life. It just doesn't scale like that.

There are an increasing number of schools started by former TFA members across the country that are showing impressive results with their students

See, this is the beauty of TFA. This is the idea. Get people into the classroom after a short training stint, people who probably were not necessarily considering a career in teaching. Get them bitten by the bug and they decide to dedicate their life to the field. They go back to school and get the required level of training and go on to do great things. I have lots of time for this. I think it's a great effect of TFA.

I know I won't be an elementary school teacher again, but I also know that my time in the classroom will stay with me throughout my medical career, influencing the choices I make and the path I take.

Absolutely. It will change the way you not only treat children but your understanding of the type of life most of your patients' families lead.

P.S. If you see me on these boards again a year from now desperately seeking help for how stressed out and miserable I am, I'll graciously admit defeat.

Oh, god no. You won't be miserable. If I implied that, I apologize. I just find it a lot more stressful than teaching. You screw up a lesson bad in a classroom, you have to hit your objective harder the next day (and most students probably don't even notice). You screw up a test bad enough in medical school, you have to repeat a year. At the price of $45K-$65K.

Maybe I was a poor teacher then or I'm a cheap student now. Dunno. But I find med school to be more stressful than teaching, but not as stressful as other jobs I've had. To each their own. You can make another comparison a few years from now.

Enjoy your summer, which will hopefully be filled with something significantly less stressful than medicine OR teaching!

And you. And again, don't sweat it. Med school isn't all that stressful, I just didn't find teaching stressful either. Anything that has do-overs has a very finite amount of stress in my book, but everyone has their own way of dealing with things. Good luck with med school....

 

[notdeadyet]

TFA is terrible. TFA representatives are like brainwashed salesmen who prey on unsuspecting premeds looking to "improve" their applications.

Teaching experience looks nice on your application. That's it. It matters a lot less than clinical experience and less than research but looks better than chemistry club or tutoring.

"Unsuspecting premeds" who think it's some back door to medical school need to pull their heads out of their a$$.

Three of my friends joined and absolutely hate it, they did it cause they wanted to take a year off and do something that supposedly looks good on your med school app…and now they’ve figured out they really don’t like “helping kids” all that much.

Your friends should have thought this through. TFA (which by the way is two years, last I heard. Hope your friends knew at least that much) is not a "year off". It's basically volunteering to teach in challenged schools.

Anyone who does anything of any sacrifice because it "supposedly looks good on your med school app" needs to sit down with a decent advisor. Or browse SDN. Or use common sense. The list goes on.

 

[A Wall]

Though I'll never deny that TFA has a hysterical element of brainwashing (which you can't truly appreciate until you've sat in an auditorium with a thousand other incoming corps members chanting teaching-related cheers), I agree with everything notdeadyet said in response to frikarika, and don't think I have anything to add.

Notdeadyet, as a last point about TFA thinking a summer of training = being certified, that's not the case, and I apologize if I made it sound like that. TFA members continue taking education coursework (online, weekends, and summer) throughout their two years of teaching, and a majority of members finish their two years with a Masters in education. I personally chose not to do the full set of coursework for a Masters, since I knew that teaching was a detour in my life and not a destination, and would rather use the tuition differential to start paying down undergrad loans. I, and the rest of the minority who don't opt for the full Masters, have a "Transitional B Teaching Certificate" that allows us to teach in the state we get it for 5 years before we'd have to finish training or get off the pot. So the idea is not that you could fill a school system with thousands of unexperienced, enthusiastic teachers, and have it succeed. There's no way TFA teachers would be successful without being surrounded by veteran teachers, whether they themselves are former TFAers or not. No one expects them to be perfect teachers when they start... You compensate for a lack of experience with mindless, brainwashed enthusiasm when you start. I think you and I are actually on pretty much the same page about TFA, notdeadyet. I've got issues with it as well, and I'll never say it's flawless, but I'd compare it to a new cancer treatment that's effective in concert with existing methods. It may not be perfect, but if it helps, let's add it to the arsenal.

 

[frikarika]

Teaching experience looks nice on your application. That's it. It matters a lot less than clinical experience and less than research but looks better than chemistry club or tutoring.

"Unsuspecting premeds" who think it's some back door to medical school need to pull their heads out of their a$$.

Your friends should have thought this through. TFA (which by the way is two years, last I heard. Hope your friends knew at least that much) is not a "year off". It's basically volunteering to teach in challenged schools.

Anyone who does anything of any sacrifice because it "supposedly looks good on your med school app" needs to sit down with a decent advisor. Or browse SDN. Or use common sense. The list goes on.

Oh I don't disagree with you, my friends are complete idiots for doing it. They are not the altruistic types, but under the guise of "improving their apps" they proceeded. I'm not blaming TFA, it’s completely their own fault. And I apologize for calling TFA terrible; I know their intentions are good. I just think the salesmanship and they way they constantly lobby neurotic pre-meds is a bit shady. I think TFA knows that pre-meds out of all people tend to be the kind who will blindly join something if means “It’ll make it easier for me to get into med school”.

I will say that I also know several people who joined TFA and absolutely love it, but they went into it with the proper motivations, i.e. they actually wanted to teach and make a difference. I think it all depends on the motivations for one entering TFA.

 

[LizUMD]

I did TFA in Baltimore City starting in 2002, and after my two years were up I spent another four years teaching as a "regular" teacher. It was a great experience, very stressful, but I look back on my time in the city with great fondness.

As for TFA and other alternative-certification teachers being "qualified" technically under NCLB one needs only a bachelor's (not necessarily in education) and passing PRAXIS scores. After completing my MAT (a teacher preparation masters) I was most surprised by what a total joke education classes are. The rigor is not there. Classes were, like, an hour per week and we'd spend time presenting mock children's book reports and learning how to design bulletin boards. The small bit of research and evidence-based pedagogy and child psychology was in one ear and out the other. You don't use Piaget or Maslow's theories in actual teaching practice the way other professions actually apply their learning.

The big elephant in the room that no one has the balls to point out when the discussion comes to teacher education and preparation is the generally low aptitude of most people who major in it. It's no secret that education majors, year after year, have the worst average SAT scores of all college disciplines. Elementary education is the fall-back major for a lot of sorority girls who can't get into the nursing program after three semesters of trying. It angered me as a teacher that the career was not more well-respected or better paying, but when you look at the caliber of students attaining teaching degrees and the rigor (or giant lack thereof) associated with earning a certificate, it's not surprising. When NCLB's "highly qualified teacher" rules were put into play a few years ago and my state's teachers had to go back and take their PRAXIS exams, 40% of Maryland's elementary-certified teachers failed one or more of the three basic PRAXIS I tests in reading, math and writing on their first attempt. The math portion covers up through pre-algebra (roughly 7th grade) skills. That's just shameful! I truly felt that 50% of the teachers I worked with were the amazing, dedicated professionals who deserve the respect and at least double the pay, and the other 50% had rocks for brains. I'd walk into the room of a language arts teacher and see a hall pass policy poster by her door (handmade by her) with the phrase "After five minutes, your late."

So when the conversation turns to comparing TFA teachers with traditional education majors, I don't think the differences come so much from variances in training and preparation but rather just a plain old difference in intelligence and motivation. TFA is notoriously hard to get into and selects people with more rigorous degrees who are likely to be more academically accomplished than most education majors. If you could standardize for intelligence, motivation, etc. then the teacher with more formal preparation would probably be more effective. But I'd rather my kid by taught by an intelligent conditional teacher than some airhead elementary education-major traditionally certified person anyday.

This country has it all backwards. Teaching should be a highly respected profession that commands a high salary like medicine, law and business. But I can't honestly say that half the teachers I've worked with deserve that pay or respect. In other countries education is a hard major to get accepted into and a rigorous one to complete- exceeding even the prestige and difficulty of medical training in places like Singapore. The high pay and respect from society follow that, and therefore the field attracts the best and brightest the way medine and engineering do here. The best and brightest in America won't consider teaching until the pay and prestige increase, and the pay and prestige won't increase until the best and brightest are competing to enter the field... it's a catch-22.

 

[notdeadyet]

Though I'll never deny that TFA has a hysterical element of brainwashing (which you can't truly appreciate until you've sat in an auditorium with a thousand other incoming corps members chanting teaching-related cheers),

Wow. Scary.

I've got issues with it as well, and I'll never say it's flawless, but I'd compare it to a new cancer treatment that's effective in concert with existing methods. It may not be perfect, but if it helps, let's add it to the arsenal.

Nice analogy. Very nice analogy. I'll buy that. Good luck to you...

 

[void]

I know I'm reviving an old thread but this is a great one.

For all of you who did TFA, did you also have the rest of the activities down as a pre-med? BY this I mean: hospital volunteer hours, research, other extra-curriculars?

I am not dumb enough to see TFA as a back-door to medical school, and I am seriously considering doing it. But if it's at a sacrifice to time I could spend doing clinical research or volunteer work in a hospital, then I will have to reconsider.