Teaching vs. Clinical Job

[iliketohelppeople]

I am finishing up a clinically-focused post doc, and have two options moving forward. One offer is a clinical job within a large healthcare system (non-VA) with decent pay for my LCOL area (65k pre licensure, moving up to mid 70s once licensure is attained; I have passed the EPPP back in January, but still working on the numerous other components/waiting for post-doc to end; steady hours per week). I have also gotten an offer for a teaching position at an undergrad institution. The pay is considerably less (60K), and the workload may be quite a bit (4-4-4 teaching load (~20-25 students per class) over their trimesters, but just three classes including General Psych, Development, and Abnormal that have been developed by folks there and I could modify/use; they would be a mix of F2F, online [a/synchronous]). Furthermore, the role is not TT, but would be at the assistant level. I would like to move more into a teaching/research role in the future, and have virtually no class evaluations (was only instructor of record once, and they did not do evaluations for that section). Given these constraints, would it be best to do the teaching gig for a year, get some solid evals under my belt, continue writing some papers (realize this would be limited due to teaching load) and then apply for some TT gigs or do the clinical gig for a year (less crazy in terms of time, apply for some teaching/research jobs down the line)?

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[Ollie123]

In normal times I'd say take the clinical gig and adjunct on the side, but I don't know how easy adjunct positions are to get right now. Generally speaking you don't need a "ton" of teaching experience, even at teaching-focused colleges. A handful of courses should be plenty. Having done clinical work might also be viewed as a positive. Neither of those is great pay (even for LCOL) so I would hope the clinical job would have a pretty chill patient load - if it has crazy-high expectations that might be the only thing pushing me the other way.

Some of this might also depend how much value you place on being in an academic environment, how much data you have ready access to vs. would need to develop through collaboration with your new institution, how "academic" the healthcare system is, etc.

 

[Mama Bear]

Is it a 9/10 month contract? If so, you gotta view the salary differences in light of this.

 

[WisNeuro]

The clinical job pay is quite low. I'd say go for the teaching job and carry some private practice stuff on the side, but the teaching load sounds kind of busy as well. I guess it would depend on what you want to ultimately do. If it's TT academia, any time you spend away doing mostly clinical will make it all that much harder to go back into academia. It can be done, but it's the exception rather than the rule.

 

[PsyDr]

The research shows that your entrance salary drastically affects your lifetime earning potential. And those numbers are really low. You should really really really consider this.

 

[iliketohelppeople]

Thanks for the responses!

In normal times I'd say take the clinical gig and adjunct on the side, but I don't know how easy adjunct positions are to get right now. Generally speaking you don't need a "ton" of teaching experience, even at teaching-focused colleges. A handful of courses should be plenty. Having done clinical work might also be viewed as a positive. Neither of those is great pay (even for LCOL) so I would hope the clinical job would have a pretty chill patient load - if it has crazy-high expectations that might be the only thing pushing me the other way.

Some of this might also depend how much value you place on being in an academic environment, how much data you have ready access to vs. would need to develop through collaboration with your new institution, how "academic" the healthcare system is, etc.

Not too many adjunct positions around the location. I imagine the client load could be quite busy eventually (doing work in primary care). However, I also think the teaching work would be quite busy, especially as I have little experience teaching.

I enjoy a bit more of the freedom of academic work (e.g., not working 8-5). I have plenty of data available. Enough for several projects. I don't imagine I would stay at the new teaching institution for more than 1 or 2 years.

Is it a 9/10 month contract? If so, you gotta view the salary differences in light of this.

No; it would be a 12 month contract with having four classes in the summer.

The clinical job pay is quite low. I'd say go for the teaching job and carry some private practice stuff on the side, but the teaching load sounds kind of busy as well. I guess it would depend on what you want to ultimately do. If it's TT academia, any time you spend away doing mostly clinical will make it all that much harder to go back into academia. It can be done, but it's the exception rather than the rule.

I think that is one of the things pushing me towards the teaching gig; I feel as though it is hard enough to stay plugged into research with all of the clinical work I do, and I imagine that would get harder transitioning to a position where FT clinical work is the expectation. However, the teaching gig seems to be mostly teaching focused as well.

The research shows that your entrance salary drastically affects your lifetime earning potential. And those numbers are really low. You should really really really consider this.

Times like this is when I kick myself for not doing neuro or child assessment. These salaries are quite consistent for the area and I will not be starting PP or anything like that since I will leave the area shortly (1-2 years). The good news is that I live a frugal lifestyle (while still spending on things I like) and already have money working for me.

 

[futureapppsy2]

That's a really low salary for a 12 month VAP contract; three years ago, I had a similar 9-month salary (I think it was maybe $5k higher?) for a VAP with a 3-3 load, and I got additional pay for summer teaching that same year (so, it ended up being functionally a 3-3-3 load that functionally paid around $75k-$80k for the year). A 4-4-4 load is quite a lot of work, especially if they are all new preps to you. Even if you have other people's materials as a base, chances are that you'll want/need to change them (in one instance, I opened up the course materials for a multicultural class, saw that the first line was "diversity does not include people with disabilities or the gays," and decided that I was just starting from scratch. In another instance, I got a previous syllabus for an addiction treatment course that was literally just reading the AA Big Book and nothing else), and grading and responding to students takes up a lot of time, especially with four classes per term. Plus, there are faculty and program meetings, etc., all of which take time.

 

[PsyDr]

Thanks for the responses!



Not too many adjunct positions around the location. I imagine the client load could be quite busy eventually (doing work in primary care). However, I also think the teaching work would be quite busy, especially as I have little experience teaching.

I enjoy a bit more of the freedom of academic work (e.g., not working 8-5). I have plenty of data available. Enough for several projects. I don't imagine I would stay at the new teaching institution for more than 1 or 2 years.



No; it would be a 12 month contract with having four classes in the summer.



I think that is one of the things pushing me towards the teaching gig; I feel as though it is hard enough to stay plugged into research with all of the clinical work I do, and I imagine that would get harder transitioning to a position where FT clinical work is the expectation. However, the teaching gig seems to be mostly teaching focused as well.



Times like this is when I kick myself for not doing neuro or child assessment. These salaries are quite consistent for the area and I will not be starting PP or anything like that since I will leave the area shortly (1-2 years). The good news is that I live a frugal lifestyle (while still spending on things I like) and already have money working for me.

Protip: Say, “can we come up about 10% on that number?”.

easy negotiation technique.

 

[iliketohelppeople]

Protip: Say, “can we come up about 10% on that number?”.

easy negotiation technique.

I tried this (including data on median local 9 month contracts are, what my other offers were, data on how much $$ I could bring into the school). They had none of it (also would not negotiate on other options like licensure fees). They would not negotiate with me at all.

That's a really low salary for a 12 month VAP contract; three years ago, I had a similar 9-month salary (I think it was maybe $5k higher?) for a VAP with a 3-3 load, and I got additional pay for summer teaching that same year (so, it ended up being functionally a 3-3-3 load that functionally paid around $75k-$80k for the year). A 4-4-4 load is quite a lot of work, especially if they are all new preps to you. Even if you have other people's materials as a base, chances are that you'll want/need to change them (in one instance, I opened up the course materials for a multicultural class, saw that the first line was "diversity does not include people with disabilities or the gays," and decided that I was just starting from scratch. In another instance, I got a previous syllabus for an addiction treatment course that was literally just reading the AA Big Book and nothing else), and grading and responding to students takes up a lot of time, especially with four classes per term. Plus, there are faculty and program meetings, etc., all of which take time.

I think that makes sense; it is not a traditional university (although it is non-profit and non-predatory school). I think it would be a lot of work and I would really have to prioritize blocking off time to continue my research while developing classes. Just not sure which one would be the best moving forward with the ultimate goal of teaching/researching (although not at a R1 level).

 

[futureapppsy2]

@iliketohelppeople , I'm not surprised that they weren't able or willing to negotiate. Not only did the pandemic cost colleges and universities a lot of money, but universities honestly don't have a lot of reason to negotiate with people for VAP contracts, because they are inherently time-limited, unless its something like a spousal hire or a specific clinical position (e.g., practicum or clinic coordinator). I think the teaching experience can help your app. FWIW, I think my VAP experience did help me get my TT R1 job because I had a record of (fairly strong) teaching evals and I could speak about addressing challenging situations in teaching, teaching strategies, etc., from actual experience.

 

[AbnormalPsych]

I opened up the course materials for a multicultural class, saw that the first line was "diversity does not include people with disabilities or the gays,"

I opened up the course materials for a multicultural class, saw that the first line was "diversity does not include people with disabilities or the gays," and decided that I was just starting from scratch. In another instance, I got a previous syllabus for an addiction treatment course that was literally just reading the AA Big Book and nothing else),

Side question, but how long ago was this? I am shocked to hear that.

 

[futureapppsy2]

Side question, but how long ago was this? I am shocked to hear that.

2016. I was taking over the class (as the instructor of record as a graduating PhD student) from a professor who had just retired. They were very, er, outdated in the way that they had talked about LGBTQ+ issues in the doctoral class I had taken with them (e.g., referring to "the gays", calling drag queens "he/shes", actually laughing in my face about the paper I had written for class about sexuality minority issues--which I later published in a decent journal, so must not have been an awful paper). Given that, I wasn't particularly shocked, honestly,

 

[PsyDr]

"the gays",

 

[iliketohelppeople]

@iliketohelppeople , I'm not surprised that they weren't able or willing to negotiate. Not only did the pandemic cost colleges and universities a lot of money, but universities honestly don't have a lot of reason to negotiate with people for VAP contracts, because they are inherently time-limited, unless its something like a spousal hire or a specific clinical position (e.g., practicum or clinic coordinator). I think the teaching experience can help your app. FWIW, I think my VAP experience did help me get my TT R1 job because I had a record of (fairly strong) teaching evals and I could speak about addressing challenging situations in teaching, teaching strategies, etc., from actual experience.

I think this could be good; I also think that this could give me some info since my experience teaching is limited. Do I actually like it? If not, I could see about other options (not hoping to do clinical work long-term, but with my post-doc experience could fall back on it relatively easy).

Also, since folks were commenting on low salaries, the clinical gig I mentioned would go up after a probationary period after licensure is attained to a more 'normal' salary in the mid 90s. I think that this would still be something I could go into after the teaching pretty easily as well (although I don't have neuro/forensic specialty, my clinical specialty is fairly uncommon).

Also, to PsyDr's point about starting salaries, I have heard this feedback, but heard that it is not quite as common in academia (e.g., they may not be as likely to base salary on your previous salary), but I don't know what others think of this.

 

[AbnormalPsych]

I think the move to mid 90s is reasonable, if that is writing, since you are in a Low COL area. Hopefully you can make that jump quickly.

I agree with the starting salary approach others stated for financial as well as satisfaction and productivity reasons. I refused to take a non-academic/research job out of training that was less than that (but my first FTE academic/research work out of training was significantly lower than my first clinical job). This approach limited my options, but it worked out and set me up well for advancement and commitment to doing good work. There are days that work really sucks and feeling adequately compensated helps buffer feelings of burnout and frustration. I think there is a good amount of research to support this, although it has been a few years sine I was reading on the subject. It feels good to be treated (relatively) well by an employer too. I would not be pleased for long if I felt under-compensated for what I was bringing to the table each day.

 

[iliketohelppeople]

I think the move to mid 90s is reasonable, if that is writing, since you are in a Low COL area. Hopefully you can make that jump quickly.

I agree with the starting salary approach others stated for financial as well as satisfaction and productivity reasons. I refused to take a non-academic/research job out of training that was less than that (but my first FTE academic/research work out of training was significantly lower than my first clinical job). This approach limited my options, but it worked out and set me up well for advancement and commitment to doing good work. There are days that work really sucks and feeling adequately compensated helps buffer feelings of burnout and frustration. I think there is a good amount of research to support this, although it has been a few years sine I was reading on the subject. It feels good to be treated (relatively) well by an employer too. I would not be pleased for long if I felt under-compensated for what I was bringing to the table each day.

This makes a lot of sense to me. Could you speak more to how taking an FTE academic/research work (or saying no to the low paying clinical work) limited options but set you up well for advancement?

It would definitely move up to mid 90s after about a year of licensure (similar to VA system of GS11 for unlicensed psychs, GS12 for newly licensed, and GS13 for licensure >1 year).

I guess another thing is that clinical work is kind of "meh" for me. I would prefer it to be much more limited in the future (perhaps a couple of hours a week w/n my specialty), but providing primary care type of work (the clinical job) is not exactly enthralling for me. I think I may have a more positive experience with teaching (especially if I seek to minimize amount of grading by using computerized assessment and rubrics and form responses to emails), but realize it will be a lot of work too (admin) because I will be working with mostly new students. Definitely feel like this could be a challenge - feeling disgruntled by low pay and lots of prep work/admin work for teaching (and not doing research), which would make me loathe teaching...

All in all, feeling pretty restless about both, but want something that prepares me best for the future I want (TT at SLAC or smaller state university [non-r1], with 9 month contract). Regardless, I plan on moving on in about a year geographically, and would not stay at either long term likely (or long enough to make mid 90s salary).

 

[futureapppsy2]

@iliketohelppeople , what kind of university is this? I'm a bit flummoxed trying to figure out what a "non-traditional, non-predatory university" would be.

 

[iliketohelppeople]

@iliketohelppeople , what kind of university is this? I'm a bit flummoxed trying to figure out what a "non-traditional, non-predatory university" would be.

It is geared towards bachelors level health education (e.g., nursing, health administration, etc.). They just have psych for gen eds, but not psychology degree.

 

[deleted343839]

Times like this is when I kick myself for not doing neuro or child assessment. These salaries are quite consistent for the area and I will not be starting PP or anything like that since I will leave the area shortly (1-2 years). The good news is that I live a frugal lifestyle (while still spending on things I like) and already have money working for me.

I guess another thing is that clinical work is kind of "meh" for me.

I would like to move more into a teaching/research role in the future

You can dip your toe into academia now (albeit in an underpaid role), get some teaching under your belt, and try for a TT position in a couple of years when you are ready to relocate. 4-4-4 is a lot of work, but if you don't have any service obligations or graduate student mentoring responsibilities, with good time management you can turn the data you have into a few more papers.

WisNeuro said something similar, but I will reiterate: you will have a harder time applying to a TT job in a couple of years if you go into full-time practice now. Clinical work, on the other hand, will always be an option as long as you are licensed.

 

[AbnormalPsych]

This makes a lot of sense to me. Could you speak more to how taking an FTE academic/research work (or saying no to the low paying clinical work) limited options but set you up well for advancement?

Not exactly what I meant.

PM me with specific questions.

Basically, your entry salaries set the trajectory for the rest of your career. Make a smart choice. Academia and research are lower paying jobs typically. They were below the $ I wanted to start my career and were not satifying me/leading to burnout. I searched the job market with very clear thresholds for what was acceptable to me. This eliminated a lot of 'good' jobs and pretty much all of FTE academic and research spots, and it took some time and some risks to take a position that wasn't at the top of my list. My salary jumped substantially with taking a gamble on that job, my satisfaction and happiness has improved and it is working out. My earning potential for the next 20-25 years is substantially higher and my chances of FIRE are increased greatly. None of that would have happened if I stuck with what I had in front of me.

 

[DynamicDidactic]

I can’t imagjne what a week looks like on a 4-4-4 trimester. That is a lot of teaching.

However, if that is your only option for a teaching gig I’d go with that. As stated before me, it is much easier to jump into clinical work from teaching than vice verse. But I would be applying for new jobs ASAP with more manageable teaching loads.

 

[iliketohelppeople]

You can dip your toe into academia now (albeit in an underpaid role), get some teaching under your belt, and try for a TT position in a couple of years when you are ready to relocate. 4-4-4 is a lot of work, but if you don't have any service obligations or graduate student mentoring responsibilities, with good time management you can turn the data you have into a few more papers.

WisNeuro said something similar, but I will reiterate: you will have a harder time applying to a TT job in a couple of years if you go into full-time practice now. Clinical work, on the other hand, will always be an option as long as you are licensed.

This makes a lot of sense; I will likely even start to apply for some jobs this year, as we will be relocating within 1-2 years (hopefully 1 year as this role is underpaid).

Not exactly what I meant.

PM me with specific questions.

Basically, your entry salaries set the trajectory for the rest of your career. Make a smart choice. Academia and research are lower paying jobs typically. They were below the $ I wanted to start my career and were not satifying me/leading to burnout. I searched the job market with very clear thresholds for what was acceptable to me. This eliminated a lot of 'good' jobs and pretty much all of FTE academic and research spots, and it took some time and some risks to take a position that wasn't at the top of my list. My salary jumped substantially with taking a gamble on that job, my satisfaction and happiness has improved and it is working out. My earning potential for the next 20-25 years is substantially higher and my chances of FIRE are increased greatly. None of that would have happened if I stuck with what I had in front of me.

This makes sense to me; I think that I will hope to get a better paid TT job that would hopefully allow me more flexibility down the line. Although the income may not be as great, I think that I would enjoy that life, and I think that is what FIRE is about. Ultimately, in combination with my partner's income and our shared goals, we will be able to reach FI - I don't know if we are the RE types altogether (partner has said they would wish to continue working in some capacity, and I think I want to continue to use my training to help better communities).

If I wished too, I could go back into clinical work and make a higher income, but clinical work really takes it out of me.

I can’t imagjne what a week looks like on a 4-4-4 trimester. That is a lot of teaching.

However, if that is your only option for a teaching gig I’d go with that. As stated before me, it is much easier to jump into clinical work from teaching than vice verse. But I would be applying for new jobs ASAP with more manageable teaching loads.

I will plan on applying for new jobs this fall, and really looking at this as a way to see if I enjoy teaching and want to make it a part of my career for sure.

Thanks for the feedback all!

 

[BuckeyeLove]

There are days that work really sucks and feeling adequately compensated helps buffer feelings of burnout and frustration.

After my postdoc I took a contract gig for my state's youth services department (...essentially kiddy prison), while waiting for an open position at the state hospital I moved back home to ultimately work. For the first 5 months I hated life, and it was the first time ever in my life where I would go to work and dread walking in the door. However, at the 5 month mark, I got licensed, and my contract rate bumped up over 100%. All of a sudden I did not mind walking in the door at all. I knew I didn't want to stay there and would leave once the position was open that I wanted in my current hospital, but I will never forget how much my mental status and overall sense of wellbeing changed once I was actually getting paid doctor-level money doing the same job that I had been doing those 5 months earlier and hated.

 

[sloh]

This makes a lot of sense to me. Could you speak more to how taking an FTE academic/research work (or saying no to the low paying clinical work) limited options but set you up well for advancement?

It would definitely move up to mid 90s after about a year of licensure (similar to VA system of GS11 for unlicensed psychs, GS12 for newly licensed, and GS13 for licensure >1 year).

I guess another thing is that clinical work is kind of "meh" for me. I would prefer it to be much more limited in the future (perhaps a couple of hours a week w/n my specialty), but providing primary care type of work (the clinical job) is not exactly enthralling for me. I think I may have a more positive experience with teaching (especially if I seek to minimize amount of grading by using computerized assessment and rubrics and form responses to emails), but realize it will be a lot of work too (admin) because I will be working with mostly new students. Definitely feel like this could be a challenge - feeling disgruntled by low pay and lots of prep work/admin work for teaching (and not doing research), which would make me loathe teaching...

All in all, feeling pretty restless about both, but want something that prepares me best for the future I want (TT at SLAC or smaller state university [non-r1], with 9 month contract). Regardless, I plan on moving on in about a year geographically, and would not stay at either long term likely (or long enough to make mid 90s salary).

Can you elaborate on why you don’t like clinical work much? Thanks!

 

[iliketohelppeople]

Can you elaborate on why you don’t like clinical work much? Thanks!

I think it is a combination of factors, likely. First, it is just draining to me. It takes a lot out of me and does not often energize me, even when I have a 'good' session. I also think of myself as an average clinician; I have had the opportunity to work with some really qualified clinicians and it seems much more natural to them. Ultimately, I find myself not looking forward to a day full of clinical work and meetings, even when I am in a clinic with co-workers I really enjoy and a great population. Some of the systems I have been in (and I know this would apply to teaching and other clinical jobs) have had policies that make it challenging to do good clinical work and place more and more responsibility on the clinician than on the patient or on administration (See the VA provider thread for more context).

I enjoy mentoring and research/consultation much more than clinical work. I have done some of these outside of clinical hours and find them quite meaningful, and I think I am better at them. I also enjoy parts of clinical work that are tied to teaching (e.g., teaching in group settings). Comparing some of these things I enjoy doing to clinical work make me more wary of including clinical work full-time into my schedule.

If the frequency of clinical work was reduced to a few sessions a week (4-8) with my populations of interest, this would be much better for me (e.g., more control/autonomy on who I see). I also believe I would have enjoyed clinical work more if it consisted of more formal assessment, however, working with adults (and having no neuro/forensic experience/knowledge) really limits the amount of testing one can do (and get paid for) to my knowledge.

 

[sloh]

I think it is a combination of factors, likely. First, it is just draining to me. It takes a lot out of me and does not often energize me, even when I have a 'good' session. I also think of myself as an average clinician; I have had the opportunity to work with some really qualified clinicians and it seems much more natural to them. Ultimately, I find myself not looking forward to a day full of clinical work and meetings, even when I am in a clinic with co-workers I really enjoy and a great population. Some of the systems I have been in (and I know this would apply to teaching and other clinical jobs) have had policies that make it challenging to do good clinical work and place more and more responsibility on the clinician than on the patient or on administration (See the VA provider thread for more context).

I enjoy mentoring and research/consultation much more than clinical work. I have done some of these outside of clinical hours and find them quite meaningful, and I think I am better at them. I also enjoy parts of clinical work that are tied to teaching (e.g., teaching in group settings). Comparing some of these things I enjoy doing to clinical work make me more wary of including clinical work full-time into my schedule.

If the frequency of clinical work was reduced to a few sessions a week (4-8) with my populations of interest, this would be much better for me (e.g., more control/autonomy on who I see). I also believe I would have enjoyed clinical work more if it consisted of more formal assessment, however, working with adults (and having no neuro/forensic experience/knowledge) really limits the amount of testing one can do (and get paid for) to my knowledge.

Thanks for the reply! Do you think your lack of enjoyment in clinical work may be due to lack of what you would deem sufficient good outcomes?

 

[iliketohelppeople]

Thanks for the reply! Do you think your lack of enjoyment in clinical work may be due to lack of what you would deem sufficient good outcomes?

I think part of it is related to scale of effect for me: I would rather spend time effecting change on many individuals (or students, or the way psychology is done) who go on to impact others' lives. While negative outcomes can be challenging, I think I have moved more to consider other influences (i.e., not put all of the blame on me as being the sole determiner of whether or not an individual experiences good outcomes) as well. That said, I think I do have a pretty high bar for myself in terms of clinical work which probably does wear on me and my desire to do it, even if objectively (e.g., via supervisors, measured outcomes) or subjectively (e.g., client report) I do well.

 

[deleted343839]

Do you think your lack of enjoyment in clinical work may be due to lack of what you would deem sufficient good outcomes?

You could substitute "research" or "academia" for "clinical work" and this question would also work.

 

[iliketohelppeople]

You could substitute "research" or "academia" for "clinical work" and this question would also work.

This makes total sense. I think the process of each of these (at least research and clinical work) are different for me. I enjoy the process of research, even if it does not yield results (don't think I would ever be a full blown R1 researcher/TT), especially the community-based research and involving students in this process. I hope to enjoy the process of teaching/pedagogy as well, and from the limited data I have, think that I will enjoy it.

The process of clinical work is generally less enjoyable for me, but I think it could be enjoyable for me in limited amounts in areas of my expertise (4-8 hours of work). Ultimately, I do see all of them as being interrelated and a strength for me as a teacher/researcher/clinician, I just would like to have more of a balance.