terrible mcat score...what should I do?

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ravin66 said:
Every person in college have the potential to become great physicians, it just takes time, effort, and determination.
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I recall having to proof read other student's papers in undergrad as part of several different writing courses.

What you're saying...it just isn't true.
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flyhi said:
No, it is not our "responsibility to tell her she will fail", especially as a pre-pod who has no clue what it takes to succeed in a podiatry program, nor of her real abilities.
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As stated before, this isn't a "what are my chances?" thread. This is a "what should i do thread." When someone asks for someone's advice and you decide to give it to them, it is IS your responsibility not to lie to them.

I don't know what you see in the OP. She spent 3.5 months of full time studying and got a sixteen.... I don't know how I can make it any clearer to you.

I think the entire basis for your argument is that it is dumb she asked for an opinion and it is dumb people gave them to her. That's fine if you think asking/giving advice is dumb, but if that's the case you can't tell her that the advice we gave her is invalid because she can make decisions for herself.... She asked for advice, got the advice, and now you're giving her advice to not listen to our advice because advice is meaningless....
 
MaxillofacialMN said:
This is a "what should i do thread." When someone asks for someone's advice and you decide to give it to them, it is IS your responsibility not to lie to them.
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I'm sorry, what credentials do you have that make you 100% positive she will fail out? You can only lie if you know the truth. And, you mention that statistically someone with her stats will fail out of pod school. Please produce the statistics you reference. You ALSO state that there is no positive outcome if she applies... again, please show the proof of this. This was after you were questioned on your absurd statement that we should all hope she attends school and drops out before year 3 so the school gets her money. I mean, seriously, WTF? :confused:

MaxillofacialMN said:
I don't know what you see in the OP. She spent 3.5 months of full time studying and got a sixteen.... I don't know how I can make it any clearer to you.
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First of all, I certainly don't need YOU to make anything 'clearer' to me. I am fully capable of making my own assessments. She has competitive gpa's in a difficult major and also got a 19. Neither you nor I are aware of her study habits. I don't care if you study 24 hours a day. If you do it incorrectly, it will not get you what you need. It could be as simple as not knowing how to study for the MCAT.

MaxillofacialMN said:
I think the entire basis for your argument is that it is dumb she asked for an opinion and it is dumb people gave them to her. That's fine if you think asking/giving advice is dumb, but if that's the case you can't tell her that the advice we gave her is invalid because she can make decisions for herself.... She asked for advice, got the advice, and now you're giving her advice to not listen to our advice because advice is meaningless....
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Please stop talking in circles.
 
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I think OP has gotten all the information she needs out of this thread. She's a big girl and can make an informed decision on her own. Let's leave this thread alone, thanks.
 
Cool, we have a new mod! :rolleyes:
 
flyhi said:
Cool, we have a new mod! :rolleyes:
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I have not said anything to you or argued with you in this thread. You are making a fool of yourself, though. Nothing productive is coming from this thread as it has reached its second page of rubbish.
 
ry9oe.gif


See, anyone can do anything if they just work hard enough.

Your abilities and shortcomings are irrelevant. All are equal and capable of the same. There is no I, only a collective and homogenous "we".

You are not special. There is nothing you can do that someone else cannot do exactly as good as you (no better, no less).

When you see Lebron with a 4 foot vertical leap to throw down a monster jam, just remember this could have been you if you'd only put in the time and effort.

When you see the President on TV, remember that could have been you if you just would have put in the time and effort.

Please turn off your sarcasm-meter to understand the rest of this post.


Long story short, this is the stupidest thread of ignorant motivational speeches I've ever seen. This crap is getting old, and is one of the reasons I'm so frustrated with this field.

Seriously, just give an honest, "not a snowball's chance in hell" response. Yeah, it's understood that if you put a little hat on it, the snowball might last a bit longer, but this incessant, obnoxious and gratuitously upbeat rhetoric regarding someone's chances for success is beyond annoying at this point.

Take some freaking pride in what you've accomplished, and stop thinking everyone everywhere is capable of what you are. Capable of admittance? Yeah...it's podiatry...get at least double digit MCATs and you're probably in somewhere. Competitive performance during school and on the boards? Probably not.

When you get to the point that maximal effort still doesn't represent perfection except in the uppermost elite, then the ability to compete will classmates becomes more dependent on your ABILITIES than your motivation.
 
Ferocity said:
I have not said anything to you or argued with you in this thread. You are making a fool of yourself, though. Nothing productive is coming from this thread as it has reached its second page of rubbish.
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No need to take it personally, nor attack anyone. You are entitled to your opinion, but last time I checked this was an open forum (as pointed out to me by the great bobdolerson one day :D) and you contributed to the 'rubbish' on the second page by being the grammar police. Congrats.
 
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All joking aside, though, that kid in the gif is awesome.
 
bobdolerson said:
All joking aside, though, that kid in the gif is awesome.
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True enough. Time to go do something productive like watch the free MMA fights. Everyone needs to go have a beer and take a chill. :D
 
bobdolerson said:
Take some freaking pride in what you've accomplished, and stop thinking everyone everywhere is capable of what you are. Capable of admittance? Yeah...it's podiatry...get at least double digit MCATs and you're probably in somewhere. Competitive performance during school and on the boards? Probably not.
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btw, probably the best statement of the entire thread.

Over-n-out
 
The elitist attitudes can be chalked up to insecurities about not being able to get into a real medical school and having to settle for podiatry I would wager....
 
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fivescrew said:
The elitist attitudes can be chalked up to insecurities about not being able to get into a real medical school and having to settle for podiatry I would wager....
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Are you talking to me?

My stats and ECs were above average for MD/DO schools and more than adequate were I to choose that career path.

I chose podiatry for the quicker completion and entry into private practice, and the fact that I would be specializing in my eventual field beginning my second year.

Spare me your stupidity and idiotic assumptions.
 
I wasn't talking to any one person nor was I serious. I was making the point that generalizations based on the little available pertinent information about the individual hold little real value.

That isn't to say that those sorts of attitudes some of you seem to have are new to me. I remember what it felt like to be freshly admitted to professional school. You feel bigger than the little man because you are doing what they only see on TV but then you come back to earth and realize a lot of factors played a part in getting you there and many of them had nothing to do with you to begin with. To counter those outside factors, all any one person can do is to keep trying as long as you value the goal. Nobody here is saying she should keep trying come hell or high water, just that she shouldn't give up on a true dream after a few small defeats and in the grand scheme of things that all two bad MCAT scores are.

She's young, I'm assuming, life is going to deliver a lot harder blows than a lousy test score and if she starts to fold, change her plans and deviate every time something is too hard on the surface she has bigger problems than not being able to get into medical school.
 
Oh and if I were to say something about you directly it would be that using a movie of a handicap person to make a point is truly pathetic and speaks more to your character than any of your accomplishments.
 
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As my old bus driver used to say to the loudmouthed kids, "you shut upa you face."

The kid is doing something awesome and I stated as much. You know what's really pathetic?

Nope. Ya' don't.

God forbid someone use something awesome to make a point if it's got a handicapped person in it. We all know that they don't like being talked about, videotaped, or used as examples of surpassing expectations...

If I were an emoticon user, this is where you'd see that little fellow rolling his eyes.
 
A valid excuse can be made for anything after the fact.
 
Is there anything I can do to be made whole again in your eyes?

This is something I seriously care about, as I legitimately value your opinion.:laugh: (there's your emoticon)
 
The "I don't care about your opinion" retort: the dying stand of an argument.
 
While motivation is extremely important, entering into a medical school type environment is completely different than that of a college environment. Remember, as a podiatry student, we are in a professional school. It is assumed that all of us are already highly motivated, educated, and well versed individuals.

Regardless of HOW you've made the decision to apply for podiatry school, it is already expected that you will work ENOUGH to excel and pass your boards. I think the students being "realistic" about Katie's stats are addressing the fact that you hit the ground running, and there is no room for catch up. Trying to learn all this information while having the handicap of a poor science background takes an already difficult job and makes it a near-impossible one.

Now, given that, it is possible Katie has a whole "nother" gear that she can tap into and just absolutely beast out and catch up to where her would be contemporaries are. It is definitely possible. After discovering I had ADD and starting the meds, my semester GPA jumped up over 2 points. But, the amount of extra work I needed to do this (since I continued with my upper division math/engineering courses) was FAR more than my classmates. I literally spent 6 hrs a night sleeping, and the rest in the library studying or in class. The real question for the OP (haha see, I know what it is now) is HOW much she wants it, and HOW much MORE work than her classmates is she willing to put in to catch up.
 
SuperFeisty said:
Regardless of HOW you've made the decision to apply for podiatry school, it is already expected that you will work ENOUGH to excel and pass your boards. I think the students being "realistic" about Katie's stats are addressing the fact that you hit the ground running, and there is no room for catch up. Trying to learn all this information while having the handicap of a poor science background takes an already difficult job and makes it a near-impossible one.

Now, given that, it is possible Katie has a whole "nother" gear that she can tap into and just absolutely beast out and catch up to where her would be contemporaries are. It is definitely possible. After discovering I had ADD and starting the meds, my semester GPA jumped up over 2 points. But, the amount of extra work I needed to do this (since I continued with my upper division math/engineering courses) was FAR more than my classmates. I literally spent 6 hrs a night sleeping, and the rest in the library studying or in class. The real question for the OP (haha see, I know what it is now) is HOW much she wants it, and HOW much MORE work than her classmates is she willing to put in to catch up.
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Well said.
 
The handicap isn't a poor science background, but rather an inability to perform adequately in anxiety-inducing situations, despite ample study time.
 
I disagree bob... I've been a regular tutor for all of the subjects tested on the MCAT, and I can definitely say the majority of my conversations start with... "So did you understand the material?" "Yes! I've read it 3 times and done the practice problems!" Subsequent follow up questions reveal how some students only comprehend at a superficial level. MCAT tests a lot on application of what we've learned... If you haven't trained yourself to think on a deeper level, you WILL struggle. While she may be "feeling" nervous, we don't really know whether it is actually affecting her performance. While my experience towards people with test anxiety is limited (only had about 10-15 students), most of my encounters with them tell me they don't really understand the material. When you are clueless on the test... that anxiety builds... Anyways, just my 2 cents from my experience. While we may disagree with how Katie should improve her score, I think we can both say that she will need to make some big changes if she is to fulfill her dreams of being a podiatrist.
 
There is certainly something to be said for "understanding", "motivation", and "I really want to be a _____".

The limiting factor is talent. Not everyone has the mental skill set to be an astrophysicist. I know I don't. If I wanted to be an astrophysicist, I would have failed at it. Period.

That is where maturity and goal setting comes into play. Are you mature enough to realize something is not going to work out for you? Are your goals reasonable?

That kid who can skate DESPITE his handicap is a very motivated person. He is also a talent at being able to do that even with his physical shortcomings. Can anyone with his physical disabilities perform as he does. No, they can't.

At 5'7" and a terrible jumpshot, I realized quickly I would never be a basketball star. Do you really think that I would have had a shot even if I would have practiced at it 24/7?
 
Kidsfeet said:
At 5'7" and a terrible jumpshot, I realized quickly I would never be a basketball star. Do you really think that I would have had a shot even if I would have practiced at it 24/7?
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Actually your example lends itself to a definite "possibly". There have been NBA players that were 5'7" that were successful.

Additionally, I believe that unless you're completely uncoordinated, spending 24/7 practicing jump-shots can certainly improve your game to a much higher level. But in my opinion, academics are a completely different animal. You can teach a monkey how to shoot a basketball and improve at that skill, though I'm not aware of any primates in the NBA (yes, I know many have acted like primates). But you can only help a person to a certain degree when it comes to learning, thinking and processing that information. If you don't get it (academically), you simply probably will never get to that same high level.

But then again you probably NEVER had a shot at basketball, after all you ARE from Canada (now don't list the Canadian NBA stars, I know who they are).
 
flyhi said:
I'm sorry, what credentials do you have that make you 100% positive she will fail out? You can only lie if you know the truth. And, you mention that statistically someone with her stats will fail out of pod school. Please produce the statistics you reference. You ALSO state that there is no positive outcome if she applies... again, please show the proof of this. This was after you were questioned on your absurd statement that we should all hope she attends school and drops out before year 3 so the school gets her money. I mean, seriously, WTF? :confused:



First of all, I certainly don't need YOU to make anything 'clearer' to me. I am fully capable of making my own assessments. She has competitive gpa's in a difficult major and also got a 19. Neither you nor I are aware of her study habits. I don't care if you study 24 hours a day. If you do it incorrectly, it will not get you what you need. It could be as simple as not knowing how to study for the MCAT.



Please stop talking in circles.
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Here is the attrition to MCAT score. Note that the study cuts the MCAT off at 28, a FAR cry from 16. https://www.aamc.org/download/165418/data/aibvol9_no11.pdf.pdfThere is no positive outcome in her applying... with the exception that her money goes to the school and helps fund her classmates - and is that really a "positive"? The point I was making is that the most "good" she gets from applying doesn't even benefit her.

Her study habits are irrelevant here, as the 16 speaks to the nature of her studying. If she studied 24 hours a day "incorrectly," this is a direct assessment of her study habits. I could sit in the library and study english history for 30 hours and still fail my cell phys test. But to you, that is good study habits, because I studied for 30 hours, albeit incorrectly.

My so called teleological argument was to show you how silly you are being giving us advice when you said it is worthless.
 
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Also, I run across this all the time in these threads and I don't understand. Can we just all agree that the MCAT is a predictor to how well you will do? If the MCAT wasnt' a predictor, there would be NO need for the MCAT, as the goal of the MCAT is to tell schools if you will succeed or not.

So, if people could stop saying the MCAT doesn't predict how well you will do, that would be great.


*I'm not interested in anecdotal evidence of your cousin sally who went to med school who got a 25 and now she's a chief resident at boston med*
 
MaxillofacialMN said:
Also, I run across this all the time in these threads and I don't understand. Can we just all agree that the MCAT is a predictor to how well you will do? If the MCAT wasnt' a predictor, there would be NO need for the MCAT, as the goal of the MCAT is to tell schools if you will succeed or not.

So, if people could stop saying the MCAT doesn't predict how well you will do, that would be great.


*I'm not interested in anecdotal evidence of your cousin sally who went to med school who got a 25 and now she's a chief resident at boston med*
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Chances are Sally wouldn't be in med school if she got a 25.

While I agree with you, the MCAT is essentially used to level the playing field of applicants. Its sole purpose is not to tell med schools if you will succeed or not.
 
MaxillofacialMN said:
Also, I run across this all the time in these threads and I don't understand. Can we just all agree that the MCAT is a predictor to how well you will do? If the MCAT wasnt' a predictor, there would be NO need for the MCAT, as the goal of the MCAT is to tell schools if you will succeed or not.

So, if people could stop saying the MCAT doesn't predict how well you will do, that would be great.


*I'm not interested in anecdotal evidence of your cousin sally who went to med school who got a 25 and now she's a chief resident at boston med*
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Agreed.

To be more specific, the MCAT is a MODERATE predictor on how one performs on their board examinations. In separate studies, the research did not show such a strong correlation between MCAT and grades.
 
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frankcfromny said:
Chances are Sally wouldn't be in Allopathic med school if she got a 25.

While I agree with you, the MCAT is essentially used to level the playing field of applicants. Its sole purpose is not to tell med schools if you will succeed or not.
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Correction.

25 MCAT is not too far from the Osteopathic averages.
 
frankcfromny said:
. Its sole purpose is not to tell med schools if you will succeed or not.
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Correct, it's to give them a way to justify not letting you in if it just so happens enough people with higher numbers were willing to fill their seats. If every applicant that year happened to have cruddy scores the majority of them would get in. It's all about money at the end of the day. An MCAT or OAT, or the LSAT whatever might be a good superficial indicator of your knowledge and ability to apply it but it still remains that they are one time instances where a million factors both in an out of your control could and probably did affect your grade. If every doctor gave up after two bad scores they would be a lot less of them out there....regardless of how smug and arrogant a lot of them can be concerning their superiority in intelligence.
 
FiveOVicryl said:
Agreed.

To be more specific, the MCAT is a STRONG predictor on how one performs on their board examinations. In separate studies, the research did not show such a strong correlation between MCAT and grades.
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"Studies" keep being mentioned and just to level that field a bit I've seen studies where the majority of those asked didn't believe we've ever landed on the moon...doesn't make it true.

If you take "studies" for face value then all of us in the human-race have some sort of STD, have a learning disability, eat too much junk food and pay way too much for our car insurance.
 
The predictive validity of the MCAT for medical school performance and medical board licensing examinations: a meta-analysis of the published research. Authored By: Donnon Tyrone; Paolucci Elizabeth Oddone; Violato Claudio

Medical Education and Research Unit, Department of Community Health Sciences, Faculty of Medicine, University of Calgary, Calgary, Canada. [email protected] Pub Date: 01/2007 Source/Vol: Academic medicine : journal of the Association of American Medical Colleges / 82(1):100-6.


Purpose To conduct a meta-analysis of published studies to determine the predictive validity of the MCAT on medical school performance and medical board licensing examinations.

Method The authors included all peer-reviewed published studies reporting empirical data on the relationship between MCAT scores and medical school performance or medical board licensing exam measures. Moderator variables, participant characteristics, and medical school performance/medical board licensing exam measures were extracted and reviewed separately by three reviewers using a standardized protocol.

Results Medical school performance measures from 11 studies and medical board licensing examinations from 18 studies, for a total of 23 studies, were selected. A random-effects model meta-analysis of weighted effects sizes (r) resulted in (1) a predictive validity coefficient for the MCAT in the preclinical years of r = 0.39 (95% confidence interval [CI], 0.21-0.54) and on the USMLE Step 1 of r = 0.60 (95% CI, 0.50-0.67); and (2) the biological sciences subtest as the best predictor of medical school performance in the preclinical years (r = 0.32 95% CI, 0.21-0.42) and on the USMLE Step 1 (r = 0.48 95% CI, 0.41-0.54).

Conclusions The predictive validity of the MCAT ranges from small to medium for both medical school performance and medical board licensing exam measures. The medical profession is challenged to develop screening and selection criteria with improved validity that can supplement the MCAT as an important criterion for admission to medical schools. Publication Types: Journal Article, Meta-Analysis PMID: 17198300



EDIT: Correction to my previous statement: There is a moderate correlation between MCAT and Boards.
 
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I could copy\paste countless studies that "prove" things ranging from evolution not being a fact to 9-11 being an inside job....but will that really prove anything...nope.

If you are honestly going to say that an individuals MCAT score correlates to their performance in medical school 100 percent of the time than you must also stipulate, based on the same assumptions, that people with higher scores than you have will make better doctors than you will regardless of any other circumstances.
 
fivescrew said:
I could copy\paste countless studies that "prove" things ranging from evolution not being a fact to 9-11 being an inside job....but will that really prove anything...nope.

If you are honestly going to say that an individuals MCAT score correlates to their performance in medical school 100 percent of the time than you must also stipulate, based on the same assumptions, that people with higher scores than you have will make better doctors than you will regardless of any other circumstances.
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If you can provide a meta analysis of such incidents, i'd love to see it. Sorry, but your "studies" are NOT at the same level of credibility or recognition as the research I've listed (not even close). Also, please quote where I've stated "100% of blah blah blah.."
 
It's nice to know that even in pod school people are still the same. They ALL think they're right :D
 
FiveOVicryl said:
Also, please quote where I've stated "100% of blah blah blah.."
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My point exactly. Either these "studies" and "research" apply to 100 percent of cases or they don't and people can and do beat the odds. So either a low MCAT = no success in medical school period end of story. Or there is always a chance and people find a way to make it work

You can't have it both ways. :laugh:
 
Nobody is saying the OP will fail.

They're just saying a 16 MCAT being used as any sort of predictor at all, lending it any credence whatsoever....doesn't put them in a positive light.

Basically any set of circumstances that lead to them doing that badly after so much studying will probably come around again when you demand the OP learn even more material, more quickly, and pass 2 boards that are at the very least as stressful as the MCAT.

So....my question to all of you hippie dreamsters who keep dropping acid and seeing some miraculous wall-melting visions of the OP dominating their class and the boards is this: What quality have they demonstrated that makes you think they will perform well? What indication have they given that makes you think it's even close to being as likely that they do well, compared to other students in their class?

Seriously, this is getting obnoxious. This is like an Atheist demanding proof of God existing while the Theist demands exactly the opposite.

So maybe let's get away from all these hypothetical situations and just say something that's true, clear, to the point, and maybe we can end this thread?

To the OP: If you intend to apply to school, you will need a good explanation as to your MCAT performance.

If you matriculate, you will need to make some major adjustments in either your ability to understand, study, or test better to be able to perform at the level of your peers.

If you cannot do both of these, you should find another berth.
 
Nobody is saying the OP will fail? Actually that's what was said. On more than one occasion actually. Re-read the topic in its entirety. As much as some of you feel it's your responsibility to give it to the OP straight others of us feel it's our responsibility to tell her there is always hope and a way to make it if you really want to.
 
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My apologies.

Thank you for taking that line to address from of the previous post. It was obviously the most important.

I thank you for always showing that there are indeed rainbows and butterflies, regardless of how stormy it is.

I appreciate your willingness to tell anyone anywhere they can succeed in anything. It is a useful and relevant attitude to have.
 
First, it was the most important line of the post because it directly related to your statement that nobody was telling her she would fail. You were wrong, people did say that.

Second, don't worry about it and you are welcome!
 
Fivescrew, my shoe is looking at applying to pod schools, what are it's chances?

Please, avoid all relevant reasoning; I would appreciate the same disregard for reasonable assumptions as has been demonstrated here.
 
It's been my experience that when your verbal sparring partner has nothing left to say but smartypants comments it's as good as them holding a sign that says "You are right, I'm wrong but I don't have the personal fortitude to admit it so I'm going to be a child now".
 
Who's being a smartypants, friend?

I'm simply curious as to your predictions of success regarding my shoe and podiatry school, and would prefer if you ignored as much reason and logic in your response as you have so far in this thread.

Please respond! My shoe performed in the bottom 10% on the MCATs and just doesn't think it got off on the right foot.
 
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