The “A Vulnerable Risk” blog editorial

[Action_Potential]

Another “professional school” nightmare, characterological experience, or typical story for this generation of psychology graduate students?

Thoughts? Comments?

pr0seandcons

Read all of the posts by pr0seandcons on A Vulnerable Risk

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[BorderlineQueen]

I think Clinical Psych and Psychiatry and other mental health professions. Attract people who are struggling with some sort of mental health problem or have relatives affected by a disorder. It's kinda a recipe for disaster when you think about this. When the OP broke down they should have taken leave and gotten mental health help. Also I'm curious to what school they went to. PsyD/PhD or Alliant/Argosy that would explain the poor schooling.

 

[Action_Potential]

I'm curious to what school they went to. PsyD/PhD or Alliant/Argosy that would explain the poor schooling.

They indicated the Wright Institute in there somewhere. It doesn’t necessarily read to me that the academic training itself was poor, but the mentoring/structure/supervision certainly sounds as if it were lacking. Gatekeeping... what gatekeeping?

 

[Action_Potential]

When the OP broke down they should have taken leave and gotten mental health help.

I think what concerned me the most was the author’s statement that the treatment provided to clients did not suffer in any way despite the trainee being “dissociated” in every other aspect/arena of life.



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[BorderlineQueen]

They indicated the Wright Institute in there somewhere. It doesn’t necessarily read to me that the academic training itself was poor, but the mentoring/structure/supervision certainly sounds as if it were lacking. Gatekeeping... what gatekeeping?

I mean it's happening in every arena. We need to stop this though. NP/PA programs are all online and they are allowed to be licensed after they graduate. Pharmacy schools in order to fill classes started accepting weaker students. I've seen pharmacy schools that advertise you need a minimum gpa of 2.5 and you don't need to take the PCAT anymore. Same with law also the newer MD/DO schools take weaker students so they can fill. It's happening in every area not just psychology. But we have to change this.

 

[GradStudent2020]

I think Clinical Psych and Psychiatry and other mental health professions. Attract people who are struggling with some sort of mental health problem or have relatives affected by a disorder. It's kinda a recipe for disaster when you think about this. When the OP broke down they should have taken leave and gotten mental health help. Also I'm curious to what school they went to. PsyD/PhD or Alliant/Argosy that would explain the poor schooling.

They mention the Wright Institute. Some of the early commentary on the pressures/treatment from peers and faculty remind me of student experiences at the (B&M, highly ranked) university I received my first grad degree at.

 

[BorderlineQueen]

They mention the Wright Institute. Some of the early commentary on the pressures/treatment from peers and faculty remind me of student experiences at the (B&M, highly ranked) university I received my first grad degree at.

Some schools are just crap. No joke the community college I went to beforehand is ranked 1st in my state for CC. Compared to my university the education at my community college was way better.

 

[deleted343839]

I think Clinical Psych and Psychiatry and other mental health professions. Attract people who are struggling with some sort of mental health problem or have relatives affected by a disorder.

Never heard that one before...

 

[BorderlineQueen]

Never heard that one before...

N=30 I know so many people with mental health issues going into psychiatry,PMHNP,MSW,LPC,Ph.D. Would be interesting to do a study on this,

 

[GradStudent2020]

Some schools are just crap. No joke the community college I went to beforehand is ranked 1st in my state for CC. Compared to my university the education at my community college was way better.

Yes, for sure. My bigger point is there are mentorship/supervision issues at traditional schools as well as FSFP schools.

 

[msgeorgeeliot]

I think it’s not productive to criticize psych grad students who experience despair, depression, anxiety, and more severe mental health problems in the course of their doctoral studies. Graduate school in any discipline can be absolutely terrible in the best of circumstances.

Psych doctoral programs do often attract sensitive people who have suffered personally, or are intimately acquainted with the suffering of loved ones. That history does not have to be a hindrance to success, and in fact can ultimately enhance our effectiveness (eg, Marsha Linehan, Kay Redfield Jamison). I would love to hear from anyone who can honestly disagree.

I find it really unfortunate that a public institutional bias against help-seeking among the same professionals who train us to provide help winds up making psych doctoral students ashamed of seeking help when they need it.

I sought help as a graduate student, and it made me a better therapist. I needed help after a male patient grabbed my body in a small windowless room. Another wagged his penis at me in a dark narrow hallway where I had no escape route. In both cases, my supervisors and other inpatient staff shrugged it off. “What can you expect of these guys?” Those were terribly painful experiences for me. I’m so thankful for my cherished (male) therapist who helped me recalibrate so I could continue to provide good clinical service.

Shame is a big problem in our field.

 

[deleted656923]

Gatekeeping... what gatekeeping?

“Gatekeeping” is typically described as governing entities in a career field (e.g., professors, supervisors, licensing committees) taking action to prohibit trainees from becoming professionals in the field who are unfit for the line of work. For example, an individual with untreated psychotic symptoms should not be allowed to become a licensed mental health clinician.

 

[deleted343839]

N=30 I know so many people with mental health issues going into psychiatry,PMHNP,MSW,LPC,Ph.D. Would be interesting to do a study on this,

You are not the first person to have that thought, so if you're serious, I'd suggest a literature search.

Some -- though definitely not all -- people are motivated to train in a mental health profession due to personal experiences with mental illness. It's no different than someone with a rare disease wanting to be a physician, or someone who has witnessed injustice wanting to become an attorney. Having that personal experience does not necessarily mean they will be less effective as professionals. It's easy to point out those whose personal problems negatively affect their work because they're the ones you hear about.

 

[futureapppsy2]

Psych doctoral programs do often attract sensitive people who have suffered personally, or are intimately acquainted with the suffering of loved ones. That history does not have to be a hindrance to success, and in fact can ultimately enhance our effectiveness (eg, Marsha Linehan, Kay Redfield Jamison). I would love to hear from anyone who can honestly disagree.

Steve Hayes (creator of ACT), too.

 

[GradStudent2020]

I think it’s not productive to criticize psych grad students who experience despair, depression, anxiety, and more severe mental health problems in the course of their doctoral studies. Graduate school in any discipline can be absolutely terrible in the best of circumstances.

Psych doctoral programs do often attract sensitive people who have suffered personally, or are intimately acquainted with the suffering of loved ones. That history does not have to be a hindrance to success, and in fact can ultimately enhance our effectiveness (eg, Marsha Linehan, Kay Redfield Jamison). I would love to hear from anyone who can honestly disagree.

I find it really unfortunate that a public institutional bias against help-seeking among the same professionals who train us to provide help winds up making psych doctoral students ashamed of seeking help when they need it.

I sought help as a graduate student, and it made me a better therapist. I needed help after a male patient grabbed my body in a small windowless room. Another wagged his penis at me in a dark narrow hallway where I had no escape route. In both cases, my supervisors and other inpatient staff shrugged it off. “What can you expect of these guys?” Those were terribly painful experiences for me. I’m so thankful for my cherished (male) therapist who helped me recalibrate so I could continue to provide good clinical service.

Shame is a big problem in our field.

Yes, yes, and yes to your first 3 paragraphs. To your fourth, I’m so sorry.

 

[BorderlineQueen]

You are not the first person to have that thought, so if you're serious, I'd suggest a literature search.

Some -- though definitely not all -- people are motivated to train in a mental health profession due to personal experiences with mental illness. It's no different than someone with a rare disease wanting to be a physician, or someone who has witnessed injustice wanting to become an attorney. Having that personal experience does not necessarily mean they will be less effective as professionals. It's easy to point out those whose personal problems negatively affect their work because they're the ones you hear about.

Not saying they will be less efficient as a clinician.But I think those with active issues or untreated issues have to jump through more hoops to be effective. If you struggle with active SI, mania, psychosis or eating disorder. Take Marsha Linehan for example she was hospitalized in the 60s and 70s. She somehow found a way to cure herself and enrolled into undergrad and grad school. If she was actively struggling I don't think she would have been able to become a high caliber psychologist if she was still struggling. It might be harder to be effective unless you get your own problems under control. Also I did some review of the literature mostly found data on mental health in practicing clinicians. I haven't found anything on mental illness before becoming a clinician.

 

[Action_Potential]

My goal in posting was more to open discussion to what circumstances led to this psychologist persisting despite considerable harm to themselves, their loved ones and potentially to the detriment of those they serve. I agree that shame, and backlash, contribute to the problem. Of course people with personal perspectives on mental health are drawn to the field, but ethically I am alarmed by a trainee providing years of treatment (and receiving clinical supervision) while deeply depressed and dissociating without addressing this need. (And at a psychoanalytic institute of study?!)

Perhaps I am in the minority in the belief that gatekeeping, remediation in ways other than academic, and supervisor intervention are not negative/detrimental events when trainees are unable to (due to impairment or ignorance) be reflective of the impact of their own welfare on patients and the institution within which they practice. This trainee sounded like they desperately needed intervention, and that their degree cost them everything of value (despite the spiritual awakening). It grieves me.

Is it time to bring up the controversial “therapy requirement” of some programs?


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[msgeorgeeliot]

Steve Hayes (creator of ACT), too.

Yes, also Jason Luoma, a frequent co-author on ACT manuals and journal publications. His website used to describe his painful history of shame. I’m guessing there was a commercial interest that made him edit it out a few years back.

 

[msgeorgeeliot]

Yes, yes, and yes to your first 3 paragraphs. To your fourth, I’m so sorry.

Thanks <3

 

[deleted343839]

Not saying they will be less efficient as a clinician.But I think those with active issues or untreated issues have to jump through more hoops to be effective. If you struggle with active SI, mania, psychosis or eating disorder. It might be harder to be effective unless you get your own problems under control.

ethically I am alarmed by a trainee providing years of treatment (and receiving clinical supervision) while deeply depressed and dissociating without addressing this need

Yes, and any psychologist adhering to our ethics code would agree. There is a difference between having a mental disorder (or past history) and being impaired. Clearly, the latter needs to be addressed in training and beyond.

It's hard to know what to make of the blog the OP posted. It's a "reflection" and possibly a re-casting of the writer's experience of grad school. It's not a chronology of events or observations, so there is no way to know what it was like to work with her or be part of her cohort. On multiple occasions the writer suggests she tended to present herself as a more functional "warrior goddess" than she was (though this isn't totally consistent, eg, being tearful in class). Her claim that the only time she felt okay with with her patients strains credibility. There is a lot of stuff that suggests unrealistic expectations and serious problems with coping. What isn't clear is whether and how this appeared to others. It's also possible that help was offered or recommended, and she is leaving that out of the narrative because it doesn't fit with the story she wants to tell. You just don't know. Anyway, I hope she finally sought help.

 

[Action_Potential]

What isn't clear is whether and how this appeared to others. It's also possible that help was offered or recommended, and she is leaving that out of the narrative because it doesn't fit with the story she wants to tell.

True, true. While it is hard for me to imagine (as a professor, peer, and/or supervisor) that the dramatic shift noted by the trainee wasn’t visible to those surrounding them, of course in doing so I underestimate the trainee’s ability to explain/mask/reframe their presentation to those that might have commented or expressed concern.

 

[msgeorgeeliot]

My goal in posting was more to open discussion to what circumstances led to this psychologist persisting despite considerable harm to themselves, their loved ones and potentially to the detriment of those they serve. I agree that shame, and backlash, contribute to the problem. Of course people with personal perspectives on mental health are drawn to the field, but ethically I am alarmed by a trainee providing years of treatment (and receiving clinical supervision) while deeply depressed and dissociating without addressing this need. (And at a psychoanalytic institute of study?!)

Perhaps I am in the minority in the belief that gatekeeping, remediation in ways other than academic, and supervisor intervention are not negative/detrimental events when trainees are unable to (due to impairment or ignorance) be reflective of the impact of their own welfare on patients and the institution within which they practice. This trainee sounded like they desperately needed intervention, and that their degree cost them everything of value (despite the spiritual awakening). It grieves me.

Is it time to bring up the controversial “therapy requirement” of some programs?


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Not to be glib, but basically, follow the money.

Even for grad students who aren’t on the hook for $300k in PsyD debt, it’s a pretty toxic cocktail to swim in 5-7 years of burgeoning debt and an increased awareness of the myriad opportunity costs of staying in versus getting out. I have to say, a functional level of depression among grad students makes a lot of sense to me.

Re: your point about a therapy requirement — I’m not sure what you’re conveying. Personally, I am a total advocate of prospective and current grad students who seek their own therapy to better understand themselves and deepen their empathy for the position of the patient. But it’s (correctly) prohibited by our ethics code to mandate self-disclosure by trainees or force them to participate in treatment.

 

[Action_Potential]

But it’s (correctly) prohibited by our ethics code to mandate self-disclosure by trainees or force them to participate in treatment.

I can name quite a few programs (both doctoral and masters-level clinician) off the top of my head that require students to complete X number of hours of personal psychotherapy.

( The Therapist As Patient for some interesting, if outdated, takes on therapists as patients )

 

[Action_Potential]

I have to say, a functional level of depression among grad students makes a lot of sense to me.

I don’t disagree with the dismal state of the profession’s academic training, and that it contributes to some students’ emotional disruption. However, a) at what point does emotional disruption become NOT “functional”? This student does not sound functional to me (and in fact indicates the same). This violates ethical codes and assumptions of clients. Therein is my concern: the impaired trainee.

And back to my original concern: where were those who were “in charge” of this students welfare? And why was this student not given supervision/mentoring/training sufficient enough for them to recognize and govern their own wellness? I am not condemning the student, any more than I would condemn any other marginalized population member who suffers the consequences of majority leadership.

 

[Mindfulpsych22]

I’m always skeptical that people can hide that they are struggling as well as they think they can. I knew a few people in the course of grad school who had a series of negative events that led to some serious emotional struggles. Before either of them disclosed anything to the rest of the students in the program, we could all tell something was up even just by brief interactions with them. Both believed that they had been doing a fairly good job concealing the problems they were having. It’s concerning that someone experiencing this degree of emotional distress could go unnoticed by their program or supervisors.

I have to wonder if there were people along the way who asked questions, expressed concerns, or attempted to find out if she was ok and she shut them down or evaded these conversations. It is completely possible that these were so subtle or unmemorable that her mind filtered them out because they didn’t fit this perception she had that she was holding it together on the outside at school.

 

[WisNeuro]

I'll always advocate for therapy during training if you need it, outside of anyone affiliated with the program. But, mandating it, is just absurd nonsense. Just an outdated thought with no meaningful empirical basis to back it up, and arguably unethical for several reasons.

 

[cara susanna]

The way she describes supervision strikes me as not representative of all programs:

There are no movies or shows that I. know of that expose the reality of doctoral programs for clinical psychology. Here’s the truth about psychology grad students, at least in my program: we aren’t simply under extreme academic and professional pressures, we are required to dig into the depths of our psyches as a routine part of every class, confront all our past traumas during experiential exercises, and reenact our painful family dynamics in the exhausting number of process groups and supervisions in which we are expected to participate.

At least, my program wasn't really like that. Even the most psychodynamic-oriented supervisors didn't really make me do that sort of thing.

 

[jdawg2017]

Instead of mandating therapy (blatantly bad from en ethical angle), I think it would be wonderful if training programs could create networks of mental health providers who can be referred to offer services to students at low-or-probono rates for X number of sessions (e.g., standard CBT or CPT protocol length). Not sure conceptually how this could be done without ensuring clinicians are affiliated with the training program somehow, but I know at least from my program a big detriment to getting mental health care services in our area (large metropolitan east coast city) is the absolutely ****ty insurance coverage we have for therapy sessions.

 

[jdawg2017]

The way she describes supervision strikes me as not representative of all programs:

There are no movies or shows that I. know of that expose the reality of doctoral programs for clinical psychology. Here’s the truth about psychology grad students, at least in my program: we aren’t simply under extreme academic and professional pressures, we are required to dig into the depths of our psyches as a routine part of every class, confront all our past traumas during experiential exercises, and reenact our painful family dynamics in the exhausting number of process groups and supervisions in which we are expected to participate.

At least, my program wasn't really like that. Even the most psychodynamic-oriented supervisors didn't really make me do that sort of thing.

Also, same. Mentors and professors in our program make it clear we can share or not share as much as we want in classes (which has lead to a good dynamic of sharing but not oversharing). Therapy supervision is a bit more "digging deep" if a client or their issues strikes a cord with you, but other then that it was basically about how to deliver the EBT most effectively and enhance my "soft" clinical skills (e.g., socratic questioning, reflective statements, etc.). This program, if the author is not exaggerating, sounds really bizarre.

 

[PsyDr]

I think Clinical Psych and Psychiatry and other mental health professions. Attract people who are struggling with some sort of mental health problem or have relatives affected by a disorder. It's kinda a recipe for disaster when you think about this. When the OP broke down they should have taken leave and gotten mental health help. Also I'm curious to what school they went to. PsyD/PhD or Alliant/Argosy that would explain the poor schooling.

Careful, if you say this people will call you names.

 

[MCParent]

Psych doctoral programs do often attract sensitive people who have suffered personally, or are intimately acquainted with the suffering of loved ones. That history does not have to be a hindrance to success, and in fact can ultimately enhance our effectiveness (eg, Marsha Linehan, Kay Redfield Jamison). I would love to hear from anyone who can honestly disagree.

I don't think those examples represent the modal way for that situation to go.

 

[WisNeuro]

Careful, if you say this people will call you names.

Like "Failed Psychologist?"

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Instead of mandating therapy (blatantly bad from en ethical angle), I think it would be wonderful if training programs could create networks of mental health providers who can be referred to offer services to students at low-or-probono rates for X number of sessions (e.g., standard CBT or CPT protocol length).

We had this through our program via the state psych association. A few psychologists would offer free or sliding scale to current program students. They were outside of the uni, so they did not supervise or teach in the program. It was a way for state psych members to give back.

 

[ClinicalABA]

Are we somewhat operating with a representative heuristic here? Are psychological difficulties during psychological training necessary related to the training, or is it just that the words are the same so we think they must be related? For the blog author, do we think that things would've been different if, say, she was in a doctoral program in math or sociology? Sounds like she experienced some tragic losses, complicated grief, probably some major depressive symptoms. Combine this with any vigorous training and expectations (school, work, social) and "forced" change in living environment, and there's big potential for things to go wrong.

I do think that there is a misconception by some that anybody who is a therapist should always be acting as a therapist. The psychology professors may be therapists, but they are not your therapist (in fact there are ethical guidelines against that). I do feel they have the responsibility to direct struggling students to appropriate self-care, but this duty is the same as for the economics professor who notices that their student is struggling? While it seems to make sense that professors of clinical psychology would be better at identifying and providing support for student struggling with mental health related difficulties, does it actually make sense (i.e, is there empirical support for this position)? That hasn't really been my expectation.

In one of my first graduate school classes, we (the 7 in my first year cohort, plus one respecialization student) were asked to go around the room and say why we were pursuing doctorate training in clinical psych. Being the wise-ass with a penchant for non-disclosure that I am, I said it was because I had no other marketable skills, nobody would pay me to go fishing, and being a psychologist seemed to beat lifting heavy objects for a living. Most others related something about research interests, specific career goals, etc. One student indicated that her own therapist had told her to and that it represented the next stage in her own therapeutic process. She further went on to express some confusion and dismay that the rest of us weren't there for the same reasons. The professor did an good job of kindly yet clearly and without sugar-coating it informing her that her reasons were not typical, if somewhat unique. She was generally surprised by this. While she has gone on to what appears to be a successful career, i do believe that she had a more difficult time with the nature and structure of the training, often hinting that she believed that the rest of us had something to hide and weren't being honest with our reasons for being there (which, now that i type this, can see that it was somewhat ironically correct in my case!).

 

[cara susanna]

Are we somewhat operating with a representative heuristic here? Are psychological difficulties during psychological training necessary related to the training, or is it just that the words are the same so we think they must be related? For the blog author, do we think that things would've been different if, say, she was in a doctoral program in math or sociology? Sounds like she experienced some tragic losses, complicated grief, probably some major depressive symptoms. Combine this with any vigorous training and expectations (school, work, social) and "forced" change in living environment, and there's big potential for things to go wrong.

I agree with this, although I do think her program's approach to supervision and training may have exacerbated her distress. It's interesting to me that she did not find her program academically rigorous but more emotionally demanding. I did not feel this way about my program.

 

[DynamicDidactic]

I can name quite a few programs (both doctoral and masters-level clinician) off the top of my head that require students to complete X number of hours of personal psychotherapy.

Can you please post which APA-accredited programs require students to complete therapy? I would love to see this.

 

[PsyDr]

Like "Failed Psychologist?"

There have been times where I have stated that some people pursue doctoral psychology training for their own mental health needs. And I wondered if this is due to a perceived reluctance to engage in psychotherapy.

Posters said such statements were arrogant.

 

[WisNeuro]

There have been times where I have stated that some people pursue doctoral psychology training for their own mental health needs. And I wondered if this is due to a perceived reluctance to engage in psychotherapy.

Posters said such statements were arrogant.

Oh, well then, I don't see what's so controversial about that. There are definitely people who are pursuing clinical psych degrees for their own MH needs, "mesearch" to fix what ails you.

 

[ClinicalABA]

I agree with this, although I do think her program's approach to supervision and training may have exacerbated her distress. It's interesting to me that she did not find her program academically rigorous but more emotionally demanding. I did not feel this way about my program.

And also the fact that she was in a cohort of ~60 students. With ~300 students enrolled at any one given time, you really can't expect a lot of personal attention or oversight beyond academic performance unless you are a good self-advocate for it, and sounds like the blog author self-admittedly was either putting on a strong face or not directly acknowledging the reasons for any showings of problems.

 

[DynamicDidactic]

Psych doctoral programs do often attract sensitive people who have suffered personally, or are intimately acquainted with the suffering of loved ones... I would love to hear from anyone who can honestly disagree.

I would like to see evidence of this. Does a doctoral (clinical/counseling? PhD/PsyD?) psych program attract more people with a history of something (trauma? mental health problems? family problems? not sure how to operationalize sensitivity) compared to a doctorate in another field (e.g., biology, philosophy, education).

From anecdotal experience, I don't think that is the case. Perhaps the difference is that psych students are more likely to talk about it.

In general, doctoral studies are difficult. If one has less available resources (e.g., money, social support, a reservoir of resilience) then completing the degree will be more difficult. On the flip side, I think it is difficult to go through a psych doctoral degree without gaining useful knowledge that helps with daily functioning. And, as mentioned, I imagine programs with large cohorts and high-debt provide an additional set of difficulties.

 

[Action_Potential]

Can you please post which APA-accredited programs require students to complete therapy? I would love to see this.

Last time I checked CSPP, LaVerne, Azusa (off the top of my head).

 

[WisNeuro]

I guess the real question is, do any reputable programs require psychotherapy?

 

[DynamicDidactic]

Last time I checked CSPP, LaVerne, Azusa (off the top of my head).

I had never even heard about LaVerne and looked through their Handbook:

Personal Psychotherapy Each student is required to complete a minimum of 20 hours of personal psychotherapy during the program and prior to the predoctoral internship. Personal psychotherapy provides students with the capacity for self-awareness and an appreciation of the psychotherapeutic process that contributes to the individual's development as a psychologist. It is the student's responsibility to locate a therapist and meet the cost of their personal psychotherapy. Personal psychotherapy is not to be confused with supervision, and as such, students shall not receive supervision hours for personal psychotherapy.

23 Each student is required to provide verification that they have completed their personal psychotherapy requirement to the PC/DCT using the program’s personal psychotherapy verification and hours tracking form, or other approved means (i.e. letter from student’s therapist). Students must complete a minimum of 10 hours of personal psychotherapy during each year of required practica (Psy 635-636, 655-656). Students must complete their first 10 hours of psychotherapy by June 1 of their second year in the program and prior to taking the competency exam. Students must complete another 10 hours of personal psychotherapy by the end of Psy 656

personally, I find this to be problematic (i.e., forced/coerced treatment) and I am surprised that the APA CoA allows this.

 

[WisNeuro]

personally, I find this to be problematic (i.e., forced/coerced treatment) and I am surprised that the APA CoA allows this.

I mean, they allowed torture, what's a little forced treatment?

 

[DynamicDidactic]

Last time I checked CSPP, LaVerne, Azusa (off the top of my head).

Here is Azusa

Doctor of Psychology (Psy.D.) in Clinical Psychology < Azusa Pacific University

catalog.apu.edu

All Psy.D. students must complete 30 hours of psychotherapy with a licensed psychologist of their choice. Additional individual psychotherapy may be recommended or required by the program as part of the degree requirements if deemed necessary by department faculty

It feels very predatory of these programs. First, they put you in a hole due to debt. Then they are not able to provide a high level of support due to cohort size. Now they make you pay extra money and find time to go to therapy, at your own cost - for a random number of hours in a year (about once a month during the academic year,. how will that help?) - without any evidence that it makes you a better clinician.

Are psycho-drama classes still a requirement in these places?

 

[msgeorgeeliot]

I would like to see evidence of this. Does a doctoral (clinical/counseling? PhD/PsyD?) psych program attract more people with a history of something (trauma? mental health problems? family problems? not sure how to operationalize sensitivity) compared to a doctorate in another field (e.g., biology, philosophy, education).

From anecdotal experience, I don't think that is the case. Perhaps the difference is that psych students are more likely to talk about it.

In general, doctoral studies are difficult. If one has less available resources (e.g., money, social support, a reservoir of resilience) then completing the degree will be more difficult. On the flip side, I think it is difficult to go through a psych doctoral degree without gaining useful knowledge that helps with daily functioning. And, as mentioned, I imagine programs with large cohorts and high-debt provide an additional set of difficulties.

Agreed, it would be interesting to see any concrete evidence of this.

I also speak only from my own anecdotal experience that, far more often than not, there is a “shadow” autobio essay that the student only discusses in safe relationship contexts. That is not to say that any private motive to enter this field is “bigger” than the student’s public presentation of interests, career goals, and accomplishments.

I do wonder sometimes if our field could do better in accepting the fullness of ourselves as human beings, versus just the public version. I also recognize, as wis has pointed out before, that our “field” is incredibly heterogenous and contains a multitude of cultures that fit different contexts. I appreciate the culture of ACT for this reason.

 

[Ollie123]

I admittedly just skimmed it, but agree with some of the above. A few things seem out of sorts (e.g. coursework "delving into my personal psyche"), but I strongly suspect this is a person who would have struggled in any doctoral program (or professional environment for that matter). Without being there it is tough to comment. I would hope faculty in psychology would have somewhat greater recognition of appropriate options for someone with mental health concerns than in other programs, but ultimately they are educators and should be viewed as such. While I can see how this line gets a lot blurrier when coursework involves "delving into your psyche"...still. A request for a 1-2 semester leave of absence should have been granted. I think it is entirely appropriate that a student frequently crying in class (or not paying attention and "journaling" to avoid crying) should be told they need to get it together. Some greater support for doing so would be nice (i.e. leave of absence, connection to school counselors), but that seems about it. A limit of two missed classes per semester seems pretty reasonable to me if occasional exceptions are granted given it is quite common in graduate school to miss class for other school-related activities (e.g. trainings, conferences, etc.). Sounds like she procrastinated on her dissertation and hit crunch time. Me too. Maybe her was for valid reasons, maybe not. Either way, that isn't the fault of the school.

Nothing wrong with getting therapy while in grad school. A little silly to require it. As a therapist, I would certainly hate treating people for WNL stress that they are already coping appropriately with and are not particularly concerned about it.

Nothing wrong with entering the field because of your personal experiences with mental health problems. Definitely something wrong with mistaking those experiences as qualifications, expecting graduate school to be your personal therapy session or demanding the profession cater to your individual needs. Its unquestionable a subset of people enter the field because of their personal experiences. Whether that number differs from the general population is a separate question. I do think more disclosure would be a step towards reducing stigma. At the same time, it can't become an excuse.

So in sum...I don't get it? I am a little annoyed this thread is making me defend the Wright Institute though...

 

[WisNeuro]

I don't get it? I am a little annoyed this thread is making me defend the Wright Institute though...

Wright state or the Institute? Because the Institute historically had terrible outcome metrics.

 

[Ollie123]

Blog said wright institute. I do not like siding with the wright institute. This may be the first time I have.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I guess the real question is, do any reputable programs require psychotherapy?

Not sure. I wonder if any of the NYC-area programs with a dynamic slant have some sort of requirement. LIU, Yeshiva, etc.?