The AOA just killed the Combined Match (and the student rep helped)

docslytherin

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EDIT:

Our school just received an email in which Amanda explains that she's not against the match. I'm not sure what's going on right now... Apparently we're going to be getting more info in the near future. I'll keep you posted. I'm not sure how she voted or what's going on... We'll see.
 

cdreed

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docslytherin said:
Today, the SGA President here at KCOM had the misfortune of telling all of us students that President of the AOA, the President-elect of the AOA, the Executive Director of the AOA and the student representative to the AOA Board of Trustees all voted AGAINST the combined match.

They had the classic rationale of closing AOA residencies and specialty colleges.

Anyway, the thing that is most frustrating about this is that Amanda Martin, the STUDENT REPRESENTATIVE, voted against the measure. She is absolutely defying the people she is supposed to be representing. She's there to express the will of the students and instead, votes in direct opposition to our desires.

Because she is a representative for students, our SGA president told us to email her to express our displeasure with what she's done. Since I'm not sure that all schools have been told about this, please email her and let her know how important this decision was for us students.

*email address removed by DrMom*

Here I come ACGME!!

In all fairness, not ALL DO students want a combined match.
 
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docslytherin

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cdreed said:
In all fairness, not ALL DO students want a combined match.
When the poll was taken of current students 95% responded in favor of it... While that's not all of them, that's certainly enough of a majority that she should have voted for the combined match. She's not there to vote her opinion... She's there to represent the whole osteopathic student body
 

JohnDO

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Too bad. I think the AOA is losing a lot of excellent medical students who would otherwise rank osteopathic programs.
 

cdreed

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docslytherin said:
When the poll was taken of current students 95% responded in favor of it... While that's not all of them, that's certainly enough of a majority that she should have voted for the combined match. She's not there to vote her opinion... She's there to represent the whole osteopathic student body
I agree that if 95% of the students were in favor then she should have complied. Where did you see poll results? How many students responded? We were not informed of the results at AZCOM.
 
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docslytherin

docslytherin

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cdreed said:
I agree that if 95% of the students were in favor then she should have complied. Where did you see poll results? How many students responded? We were not informed of the results at AZCOM.
our SGA president presented the data to the school today, but i don't remember an exact number of people responding.
 

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JohnDO said:
Too bad. I think the AOA is losing a lot of medical students who would otherwise rank osteopathic programs.
yep!
Subtract one more. :mad:
 

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That makes me sick.

They are sinking a ship that's not even theirs to sink. WE are the future of the profession and we have to live with the consequences of their dark ages mentality.

ACGME, here I come as well. And that's sad, because I'd really like to find a good AOA transitional year program and be a good little DO for a year, then go on to an ACGME program for the last 2 years.

...but oh yeah, I can't do that and not uproot my whole family, since they just closed the only AOA residency program in Texas...
 
C

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Is this person elected? If so it may be beneficial to elect people that actually share are views.
 

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This is a drag....but all is not lost. Recall that the big decisions are made in July at the nat'l meeting. I am sad that this move is not going forward the way we wanted. However, the AOA is getting this message loud and clear.
Our inertia, numbers and desire to increase the quality of physician training will win.

The AOA will learn within the decade that to maintain any representative power, they must act like representatives. If they continue to mainatin this bizarre stance of yesteryear, this club of old boyz may just die from lack o' luv.
F
 
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docslytherin

docslytherin

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fuegorama said:
This is a drag....but all is not lost. Recall that the big decisions are made in July at the nat'l meeting. I am sad that this move is not going forward the way we wanted. However, the AOA is getting this message loud and clear.
Our inertia, numbers and desire to increase the quality of physician training will win.

The AOA will learn within the decade that to maintain any representative power, they must act like representatives. If they continue to mainatin this bizarre stance of yesteryear, this club of old boyz may just die from lack o' luv.
F
enclosed with the announcement from our sga president was a copy of the letter sent by george thomas (aoa pres) to the ama telling them not to vote in favor of the joint match.

i'm feeling like we're about at the end of the road...

and i'm going to an acgme residency since apparently the aoa doesn't care about me at all...

i'm going to attach the letter from dr. thomas so everyone can read what he sent... it's preposterous. this is how he addresses the concerns of 95% of DO students : "...While some students may express desire for the convenience of a combined Match, they do not represent the entire osteopathic student body. " i removed the AOA header at the top and the image of his signature, but those are the only edits.
 

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There are people like me that are reading this kind of childish letter from the president of the AOA, basically saying, don't share my toys and I won't share your and blah. blahh blahhh.. and I am really wondering if these people are not shooting themself in the foot.

So much BS... we should no all have to go in to law school just to change this issues.

In a perfect world... all DO students would purposely refuse to match with the AOA and only go for ACGME. Then the AOA president might get the point.
 

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The good thing is that this issue will be coming up again. I actually just spoke today with the person who will be the next student representative starting in July. She is ready and willing to stand up continue this discussion with the AOA.

BTW: I was also told that the petitions we've been sending in (thanks to SDN efforts) are not being received well by Dr Thomas or the upcoming president of the AOA. We need to be persistent but polite despite these obstacles. There are many in the AOA who are supportive of this issue and still working towards it.
 

Robz

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There is a lot more to the combined match than just mixing the matches. There are couples matches to be considered, dual accredited programs (with specific spots for do's), should AOA residencies allow allopathic counterparts....and so forth.

Now, my stance is one of in favor of the combined match. I truly believe that it will enhance the amount of people applying for AOA residencies. I have had the fortune of talking to the AOA leaders and expressing my opinions in a formal manner. I even had the chance recently to talk to Dr. Thomas in favor of a combined match as well and to hear his side.

It is absolutly clear that it is beneficial to an indivdual student that the combined match would help them. What is in question is the benefit to the AOA in the long run. There is a stong sense of apprehension to the combined match in that they think it will allow more DO's to apply to ACGME programs and not apply to AOA programs. Then those programs are going to be removed for lack of funding...leading to only ACGME programs which could in the end put stipulations like USMLE scores or others requirements on those residencies. With that being said I truely believe that the match is a good thing and it will INCREASE the amount of students that are going to apply. Is this definatly going to be true??? No one knows... the tough part is you have to make the decision before you will find out.

The end part is I didn't think the AOA gives students enought credit in deciding their own future. I also think that the increasing amount of students without residencies is going to give the AOA a lot of issues in the future as well. In regards to the leadership, I do think that they act in what they think is the in the best intrests for all DO's. Even if you disagree with them, I still believe that. *Edited to remove comment that was addressed**

Like I said before you need to understand both sides. Then we can work to making this a reality. I believe this is a good thing but sometimes we need to stay with our cause and work for what we believe in. I know our student government leaders will keep up the fight for what we want.
 

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Robz said:
I find it in VERY poor taste to post Amanda's email address (and a msn email address at that) on a anonymous board with a very negative title. I have talked to her and she does care a lot about the students.


Very good point. I'm going to remove it.
 

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uL007 said:
combined match? i'm drawing a blank.
can someone please spell out what that is for me? thanks.
check out the sticky in this forum
 

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Okay. I took the time to make a phone call to gather information from those *in-the-know* and I'd like to clarify something.

Amanda Martin DID NOT vote against the combined match. She was, however, with Dr. Thomas when he spoke out against it and this is apparently where the misinformation came from.

I'm waiting for some other information and will post any pertinent info. I just wanted to quickly get out there what I've found out so far.
 

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I talked on the phone with Amanda tonight so that we could clarify this. She gave me permission to post an email response forwarded from her.

First, I am not against the joint match in any way. I have spent hours and hours and hours calling, emailing, sitting in meetings etc with the leadership bringing this issue to them. I take my job very seriously and feel I have to represent the students (even if it is something bizzare like they don't want to take exams ever again). When I speak for the students I only use their words that I have access to from conversations, emails, surveys etc. I feel that this position is one created for dialogue. I tell the AOA what students think, and conversely I tell students what the AOA thinks. Its that part that I think created the illusion that I am not in support of the match.

This weekend I was coming to you all with the president of the AOA to help him articulate the opinion of the AOA leadership. Thats all. In order to have successful access to the AOA I must respect the AOA and be appropriate ( in essence not contradict the AOA President in his presence once he has made a decision and is addressing a group). When I come to students I try to lay out the opposite argument so that you all know what the AOA feels. I do the exact same with them (ie I keep telling them the student opinion whether they want to hear it or not) This is my primary function. My purpose is to be a conduit for open dialogue.

Because of this, I have had the opportunity to have >7 conversations with the AOA since the meeting to continue the dialogue and look at ways to study the opinions of post grads who may have chosen a joint match. The AOA will continue to look into this issue as long as students like you keep bringing the issue up. It is not a dead issue until the students decide to stop talking about it.

I can't give you my personal opinion about the match because thats not my role. My role is to advocate for the match and for students wishes to the board which is what I do every day. I also have to be able to articulate their arguments against it. They will have a fact sheet out in the next couple of weeks to further explain their stance so I will wait for that. If you want me to further explain any issue please ask. Please know that I am working for your interest every single day.
Thanks
Amanda Martin
I really hope that this clears things up.
 

Robz

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DrMom said:
I talked on the phone with Amanda tonight so that we could clarify this. She gave me permission to post an email response forwarded from her.



I really hope that this clears things up.
Thanks Dr. Mom...that was cool.
 

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docslytherin said:
EDIT:

Our school just received an email in which Amanda explains that she's not against the match. I'm not sure what's going on right now... Apparently we're going to be getting more info in the near future. I'll keep you posted. I'm not sure how she voted or what's going on... We'll see.
:)
Hi guys,
I just want you all to know this is a misunderstanding. I am not oposed to the joint match, but some people got that immpression because part of my job is articulating to students the AOA point of view on issues. Conversely my only job with the AOA is to voice the concerns of students. I am working everyday to make sure the leaders know the opinions of students like you all. I only present the opinions that are given to me by students through corespondence
Just to clarify, there was no vote. Thats not how it works. In order for the AOA to endorse a joint match, they would have to approve a resolution at the House of Delegates in july. Each state is represented by number of DO's in that state and have a coresponding number of votes. That's how the change occurs.
This issue was brought to the house last July and they voted to refer it to a task force. Now, they are trying to gain more info on the subject (ie through surveys etc.) It takes time for change to occur, but it is possible. The key is to diplomaticly approach all venues of leadership (ie Deans, state assoc and boards, specialty boards, and the AOA). The more people who are aware of your feelings, the more likely the issue is to stay a topic of discussion. I'm only here to help you all and will be happy to answer any questions you have.
Amanda
 

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If that is the case, maybe it would be appropriate to send the petitions for the joint match to the state osteopathic associations as well.
 
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docslytherin

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Student Rep said:
:)
Hi guys,
I just want you all to know this is a misunderstanding. I am not oposed to the joint match, but some people got that immpression because part of my job is articulating to students the AOA point of view on issues. Conversely my only job with the AOA is to voice the concerns of students. I am working everyday to make sure the leaders know the opinions of students like you all. I only present the opinions that are given to me by students through corespondence
Just to clarify, there was no vote. Thats not how it works. In order for the AOA to endorse a joing match, they would have to approve a resolution at the House of Delegates in july. Each state is represented by number of DO's in that state and have a coresponding number of votes. That's how the change occurs. I'm only here to help you all and will be happy to answer any questions you have.
Amanda
Thanks Amanda. Sorry about the misrepresentation... Thanks for clearing it up.
 

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i am thankful that Amanda had the chance to reply and clear up any misrepresentation and for her role in communicating the student perspective to the board. as she mentioned, the AOA house of delegates has not voted on this yet (it will be voted on in july), so the issue is definitely not dead. i would encourage everyone to learn as much as they can about the issue and communicate to your student government leadership and SOMA leadership - who will continue to address it.

however, without AOA policy on the issue, and without the HOD having a chance to vote on the issue to create policy, i do think it is inappropriate for anyone (including AOA leadership) to say that "the AOA is against this". the exception to this is if the BOT has the authority to make policy in between HOD meetings, and this would have had to mean that the BOT has taken an official vote against the combined match, which i'm not sure has or has not happened (?). if there is official policy (HOD or BOT) out there - please let me know, and post to this listserv.

now the COPT (council on postdoctral training), the group assigned to study the original resolution presented last july, has taken an official vote *against* the resolution and against the combined match, but i don't believe that they have the authority to set policy for the organization (their report will come back in july and be considered by the HOD in their vote).

hopefully i understand everything correctly here (please post if not).

also - re: the letter sent by Dr. Thomas to the AMA, i have explained this before on a previous post:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=166249&page=6&pp=20
<see page 6>

bl
 

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TCOM-2006 said:
i am thankful that Amanda had the chance to reply and clear up any misrepresentation and for her role in communicating the student perspective to the board. as she mentioned, the AOA house of delegates has not voted on this yet (it will be voted on in july), so the issue is definitely not dead. i would encourage everyone to learn as much as they can about the issue and communicate to your student government leadership and SOMA leadership - who will continue to address it.

however, without AOA policy on the issue, and without the HOD having a chance to vote on the issue to create policy, i do think it is inappropriate for anyone (including AOA leadership) to say that "the AOA is against this". the exception to this is if the BOT has the authority to make policy in between HOD meetings, and this would have had to mean that the BOT has taken an official vote against the combined match, which i'm not sure has or has not happened (?). if there is official policy (HOD or BOT) out there - please let me know, and post to this listserv.

now the COPT (council on postdoctral training), the group assigned to study the original resolution presented last july, has taken an official vote *against* the resolution and against the combined match, but i don't believe that they have the authority to set policy for the organization (their report will come back in july and be considered by the HOD in their vote).

hopefully i understand everything correctly here (please post if not).

also - re: the letter sent by Dr. Thomas to the AMA, i have explained this before on a previous post:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=166249&page=6&pp=20
<see page 6>

bl

That is exactly right. The COPT has recommended the AOA not officially endorse the joint match at this time. This is only a reccommendation to be considered by the house. If it doesn't pass this year it does not mean that it can never pass. Just keep that in mind everybody. The key is to learn as much about the issue as possible and stay informed. There are people against the match. However, there are also people open to new ideas and willing to consider change.
 

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i was there when dr thomas and his staff, along with amanda, spoke at the cosgp meeting. the entire thing was maddening. i left the meeting completely frustrated by the AOA's leadership.

despite the AOAs stance, everyone should know that the issue is most definitely not going to die, and your national student organizations are all going to be working very hard on this issue, and will continue to make a big stink about it for as long as they have to. however, do not hold your breath for anything to be implemented soon. everyone is working hard to make sure our case is airtight, and that means professional surveys, etc., which will take time to fund, create, and analyze (the other one was just a poll- which is not scientific, but just gives us a direction to move in based on student opinion). just for clarification, it will most likely not be voted on in july- at the cosgp meeting, we did not feel we had enough hard facts and evidence to support the resolution for a joint match, and by the time we do, it will be a late submission for this july (which means it doesn't get as much credibility) therefore, this will most likely (unless a miracle happens) be submitted early next year so its one of the first things on the docket for next july. (it sucks, i know, but stragetically, this is better).
as far as amanda goes, i give her credit for listening to dr thomas' bulls*it day in and day out while still holding on to her sanity. however, it would have been wonderful for us and our cause to hear her say out loud in front of dr thomas that she was in favor of it, and would support what students wanted, but she definitely DID NOT. she basically told us not to worry, we're all going to be doctors anyway (which we already know, thank you). however, dont fault her for it- her position is tricky. im sure being in total opposition to dr thomas would only make her job representing us even harder.

one day the AOA will be forced to take a risk and make the change. it will happen. but probably not for awhile. we just need to keep forcing the issue as long as we have to. those of you who have questions or concerns about what went on at the meeting should talk to the sga prez or whoever from your school attended the meeting. they would be glad to share with you what went on : )
 

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The AOA leadership wants osteopathic students to do osteopathic internships and residencies to support/maintain the AOA. Yet how can they expect loyality from students when it is clear that those in leaderships do not listen or value our opinions. According to DrMom, our petition, which members here on SDN took time to carefully craft and tactfully write, wasn't received well with the current leadership. Apparently they are annoyed that the students are asking for something that the leadership is against.

And yet the AOA wonder why DO students are defecting from the profession. Why should students remain loyal to an organization that doesn't reflect the needs and desires of its members? Why should its member support a leadership that doesn't like to have its decisions questioned?

If the AOA wants to make a change, change it so that the students don't do the osteopathic internship because we have to, make it so that the students will do osteopathic internship/residency because we want to.
 

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I think they're annoyed b/c they feel that we don't fully understand the intricacies of the issue. I was told that the COSGP asked the AOA leadership to provide a bulleted list of concerns that the AOA has about the combined match. Once we have a list, we can address those issues.

Please do know that there really are some issues involved with this that aren't easily taken care of but need to be dealt with before we make an agreement to combine matches. It isn't as simple as it might seem.
 

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DrMom said:
I think they're annoyed b/c they feel that we don't fully understand the intricacies of the issue. I was told that the COSGP asked the AOA leadership to provide a bulleted list of concerns that the AOA has about the combined match. Once we have a list, we can address those issues.

Please do know that there really are some issues involved with this that aren't easily taken care of but need to be dealt with before we make an agreement to combine matches. It isn't as simple as it might seem.
It's always interesting to see leaders point to higher authority when they lack justification. It will truly be interesting to see what comes out of this "bulleted list of concerns"
 

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Maybe somone like Dr. Mom can explain something to me that makes no sense. More and more dually accredited residencies are popping up, especially this year. Nearly every ACGME program I will be applying to has now decided to go dual. Granted, I am going into FP, and other specialties are not onboard yet with dual accreditation. But if FP is any indication as to how dual accreditation is going to change things for us, its not looking pretty!!

Here is the problem (technically my problem). I have basically narrowed down my choice of programs to apply to down to 6 programs. All now are dual programs that as of last year were only ACGME. The problem is that there seems to be no consistency by which these programs receive applications.

1 program in Pennsylvania requires DO's to enter through the AOA match. The 3 I am looking at in Wisconsin allow us to choose which match we want to apply through, but if you choose the NRMP match in March, and they fill all their DO slots in the AOA match, you get hozed. The 1 program in Texas and the one in New Mexico actually require you to enter through the NRMP (allopathic) match in March, even though they are also AOA programs. It would stand to reason that if a program is AOA accredited, that they could at least have the courtesy to allow DO's to apply through the AOA match.

So you see my problem? I cannot apply and rank all 6 programs in one match, not even the damn AOA match. Its just insane. Someone needs to get this mess fixed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

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PACtoDOC said:
I cannot apply and rank all 6 programs in one match, not even the damn AOA match. Its just insane. Someone needs to get this mess fixed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Your situation is an excellent example of why the system is so very broken. I hope you will correspond personally with Dr. Thomas about it. By the way, he's going to be on campus April 5, I believe (or 3rd?)--stay tuned for that.
 

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group_theory said:
The AOA leadership wants osteopathic students to do osteopathic internships and residencies to support/maintain the AOA. Yet how can they expect loyality from students when it is clear that those in leaderships do not listen or value our opinions. According to DrMom, our petition, which members here on SDN took time to carefully craft and tactfully write, wasn't received well with the current leadership. Apparently they are annoyed that the students are asking for something that the leadership is against.

And yet the AOA wonder why DO students are defecting from the profession. Why should students remain loyal to an organization that doesn't reflect the needs and desires of its members? Why should its member support a leadership that doesn't like to have its decisions questioned?

If the AOA wants to make a change, change it so that the students don't do the osteopathic internship because we have to, make it so that the students will do osteopathic internship/residency because we want to.
Exactly! The combined match is just ONE branch of a larger tree. The real issue is the AOA's lack of respect to student issues. They'll reap the whirlwind in 10-15 years when AOA membership, loyalty and support will reach an all-time low. Neglect the foundation and watch the house crumble.
 

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when i think of those in charge of the AOA i find it odd that they fought so hard to be thought of as equals in medicine. They went into osteopathy for very different reasons that i would assume we all did. They didn't have rights to practice in all 50 states. They couldn't do surgery, perscribe drugs, or have the respect that we enjoy. Possibly the weirdest part of all this is that they seem to resent the very thing they fought for...and are now trying to keep us in the lowly, oppressed, picked on, beat up days of the 1800's.
I recognize that the AOA has done a lot for us...i just hope they have the courage to keep doing more!!!
(excluding foolish stuff like the whole push for O-MS...what a joke!!!)
 

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ameier14 said:
Exactly! The combined match is just ONE branch of a larger tree. The real issue is the AOA's lack of respect to student issues. They'll reap the whirlwind in 10-15 years when AOA membership, loyalty and support will reach an all-time low. Neglect the foundation and watch the house crumble.

I disagree. I have had the opportunity to work with the AOA leadership on several occasions in the last few years. They do support students. They have a voting student member on each of their committees, a student on the BOT, they support SOMA (Netters for new members, scholarship programs). The list goes on. I agree that the AOA BOT is missing the boat on the joint match issue, but saying that they have no respect for students is unfounded.

I hope that everyone will direct their frustrations in a positive direction and become active in the push for a joint match. Work through your state and student organizations. The AOA has not voted on this issue. But they likely will in July so get busy. Complaining about the AOA is unjustified and has no positive benefits.
mk
 

drusso

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jhug said:
They couldn't do surgery, perscribe drugs, or have the respect that we enjoy. Possibly the weirdest part of all this is that they seem to resent the very thing they fought for...and are now trying to keep us in the lowly, oppressed, picked on, beat up days of the 1800's.
They're not *THAT* old! They were learning modern medicine and surgery albeit in D.O. hospitals only. That's another reason to support the change. The glory days of large D.O. hospitals that could support a variety of D.O. training programs are over. There are just fewer and fewer of these are around...
 

fuegorama

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drusso said:
They're not *THAT* old! They were learning modern medicine and surgery albeit in D.O. hospitals only. That's another reason to support the change. The glory days of large D.O. hospitals that could support a variety of D.O. training programs are over. There are just fewer and fewer of these are around...
This was addressed when Thomas came to my school.

student: With the loss of Osteopathic hospitals, do we not need an increased number of relationships with ACGME institutions?
Thomas: Bigger isn't better. :confused: :confused: :confused:

I have no idea what he meant. That was it. No discussion.
Bizarre.

The kooky thing about the AOA's stance is that they say there is no issue with the current system.
Thomas: We are having no problem placing our students in ACGME residencies. As long as 50% of our graduates keep going to the allopathic side, there isn't a lack of training opportunities.

Once again bizarre, and seemingly divergent from the "loss of identity" argument spouted in Florida.
 

Dr JPH

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I agree that there are problems in the osteopathic community that need to be fixed. The problem is, each school has issues that they are trying to fix individually as well. There are kinks in the system wherever you turn. But this is true in the allopathic world as well.

Affiliation with large universitites and their hospitals is the best way to insure the long term success in training medical students and developing solid post graduate training programs for the osteopathic world. Unfortunately a very few of our osteopathic schools have this large university affiliation.
 

avanb803

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I also have to laugh at the foolish O-MS suggestions. How many allopathic students do you hear refer to themselves as A-MS? They have finally found a high level of equality with allopaths and now they are struggling only with themselves. Time to realize that DO's have slightly different way of learning but in the end, physicians are physicians and the main goal is to treat the patient as effective as possible. Enough with the advertising and pep rallies. O-enough.
 

somnolent

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avanb803 said:
I also have to laugh at the foolish O-MS suggestions. How many allopathic students do you hear refer to themselves as A-MS? They have finally found a high level of equality with allopaths and now they are struggling only with themselves. Time to realize that DO's have slightly different way of learning but in the end, physicians are physicians and the main goal is to treat the patient as effective as possible. Enough with the advertising and pep rallies. O-enough.

I O-agree.
 

macman

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This whole combined match issue gives me flashbacks to the issue of the comlex PE a few years ago-I was part of COSGP when we folded under pressure from the AOA trustees to withdraw our resolution from the HOD agenda. It was a little sad. I think part of the problem is that once students have access to AOA leadership they are reluctant to bite the hand of influence. I cannot comment on the above discussion of Amanda M. without more details and I understand her arguement regarding maintaining dialogue-however if you had a seat on the BOT would you fight the power or set yourself up for a nice letter for residency apps? I'm implying nothing here about Amanda-I'm pointing out a more general issue of a dilemma that student leaders likely face. I applaud those who put in the time to represent us and the more of us who speak out and hopefully directly contact the AOA the better.

add me to the list of would be AOA interns if we had a combined match

btw-the PE was well run but a bit moot - I hope they cease to give that exam-if you cannot do an H&P as a fourth year then how the heck do you pass your rotations?