The Argosy stigma...

[bikingbabe32]

This is a question for those who have experience - either as an Argosy student or as a student from a different program - with internship site placement...just how much of an impact does where you're getting your degree from matter in terms of finding an internship placement. Will the name of the school I'm getting my psyd at really overshadow the rest of my accomplishments?

For example:
- For undergrad, I obtained a BA in psychology, a BA in criminal justice, and a minor degree in women's studies; I had a gpa of 3.85 (only because of a C in my intro to marine biology class lol) & completed an internship at a domestic violence shelter.
- For grad school, I obtained a masters in forensic psychology from John Jay College of Criminal Justice (#1 college in the country for all things forensic); I had a grad gpa of 3.76 & completed an internship at Rikers Island Correctional Facility under the supervision of the deputy director of NYC's department of health & mental hygiene (which, I think, kinda provides me with a very strong reference for internship applications).
- I've worked full time in a variety of social service/mental health settings over the course of the last 6 years (I'm 26 years old) - these jobs ranged from behavior therapist, residential case manager for individuals with mental illness, street outreach counselor for a youth shelter, etc.

I'm pretty much set on obtaining an internship in a forensic setting, particularly one in which I am able to work with sex offenders...regular hospitals bore me, not enough danger . Will my strong forensic background really be overshadowed because I want to go to Argosy? They are not a last resort school for me...I was actually persuaded by their list of courses required for a psyd with a concentration in forensic psych. Also, from what I have read, many people say their psyd program is very rigorous because they are "trying to create a better reputation"...it's their other programs that "let students coast by."

I know this is kind of a long question, but I am a verbose individual with a fairly multifaceted issue...thank you

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[Therapist4Chnge]

Don't get sucked into "tracks" or "concentrations"...the value of a graduate training program comes from the mentorship and practica experiences it can provide, and not the classes it offers. Many doctoral programs will flat out tell you to do what is needed for your classes, and put the majority of your focus on your research, practica, and mentorship time. At the end of the day no one is going to care if you took a class in Forensic Assessment if you worked with a great mentor and gain experience at quality training sites. The same holds true for many other niche areas.

 

[aequitasveritas]

Not another Argosy thread...

Do a search and you'll come up with alot of useful commentary on SDN.

 

[bikingbabe32]

Honestly, I was supposed to be going to school in england this september for a program in investigative psychology...some issues and uncertainty came about, and it ended up being too late to apply to anything other than rolling admissions colleges. Like I said before, I don't really see argosy as a last resort school for me because I actually do like the curriculum in regards to it being a good fit for what I want to do (especially since it offers sex offender assessment classes) and the down to earth attitudes of the professors I met & I know I still have other options. Knowing it may give me an issue later on in life does give me pause...however, maybe it could be a good start if I do a year and transfer out of these notorious sounding professional schools to somewhere like FIT, build some relationships with professors for references since I've been out of school 2 years, etc. - I've talked to a few schools that are institutions and some will accept up to 18 transfer credits as long as they're from an accredited institution and not core clinical classes. Like I said, I like that classes and teachers at argosy and would probably prefer to take the classes there rather than the other schools...as long as they transfer out, what's the issue I guess.

I saw a lot of reviews saying how the program is hard and such, but it seems I was unaware that the name would have such an impact on my internship placement...I guess I thought my background would be a good indicator of my capability, kind of a past is prelude thing. Oh well, I'll just have to adapt to the new plans.

 

[erg923]

There is no need to have "sex offender assessment classes" in order to prepare one for a career functioning as a psychologist in a forensic setting. Classes at the doctoral level should teach the fundamentals of assessment theory and practice and the general underlying science of psychology. Specialized assessments is something you will learn in the field, not in classroom.

 

[cara susanna]

I would suggest that you just take a year off instead of only applying to rolling admissions schools now.

 

[roubs]

You could get into a school much better than Argosy. Also, I would agree 100% with what erg said. Saying "Look we have sex offender assessment classes" is basically a sales tool being employed by a for-profit institution. Many many other programs (and you seem qualified for them) can prepare you for work in forensics without requiring you to take on over $100,000 in debt. Please don't be sucked in by a sales pitch.

 

[Psych66]

While I cannot provide any information on Argosy, I can attest to the fact that I do not believe attending a program with a forensic track gives you a better chance of securing a forensic internship. I attend a university based Ph.D. program with no forensic track or forensic emphasis. I applied to only APA forensic placements for internship this past year and got a forensic internship. I've never had a class in forensic psychology. No one is going to know or care whether you've had these classes. Your all-around accomplishments (e.g. research productivity, practicum placements) I would say hold much more weight than whether you took a sex offender assessment class.
If being in a forensic oriented program is really important to you, there are plenty of other training programs that offer training in forensics and don't cost hundreds of thousands of dollars.

 

[erg923]

I too interviewed for predoc internships at several federal prison sites. There were no Argosy students at any of my interviews.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I'm going to agree with pretty much everything that's been said above.

1) There really isn't a need to take intensive specialty-related classes, especially at the grad school level. Much of that knowledge and training will come with direct patient contact via practica, but it's VERY important to lay down a solid generalist base before venturing into a specialty field.

2) You do seem qualified to attend programs without nearly as much of an attached stigma (as well as the large price tag). Given the difficulties already inherent in the internship matching process, if you have the option not to tempt fate and needlessly handicap yourself, you should take it.

3) Regarding attending the program just to attend a few classes and then transferring out, I'd recommend against it. In general, transferring between schools at the doctoral level is generally discouraged except in extreme circumstances (e.g., your advisor takes an offer at another school). I'm positive you'd be able to take similar classes elsewhere, although as mentioned above, try not to get so caught up on the course work. The majority of your learning isn't going to occur in the classroom.

 

[bikingbabe32]

Well now, this is a very dissuading consensus about Argosy, and professional schools in general...I'm thinking maybe I'll just apply to programs like the Loyola Licensed Clinical Professional Counselor program, develop some good networks and such, and then see where that takes me or eventually move into a doctoral program...perhaps something like the Loyola program from what I am reading.

I'm going be straight up honest...I simply cannot take another year off. I benefit in no way from doing nothing, I don't develop any new contacts or get any opportunities to do things like participate in research or advance in my field. It seems like it would be wise for me to at least take care of this and then work towards a psyd when I want to. Also, by participating in such a program, I'll have the option to actually survive and not get into ridiculous debt when it comes time for the doctorate program.

I'd also like to mention that I am in no way under the illusion that I would have to take a class on sex offender assessment or obtain a concentration in forensic psych in order to be a more desirable applicant...I'm simply obsessed with all things forensic psychology, and have been since I took a class on forensic behavioral analysis 8 years ago. I liked the classes offered & liked that I would have that much extra information to work with down the road. However, knowing the impact the name will have on placement outweighs my interest in the courses offered. I am also aware of the steps to becoming a forensic psychologist - ie getting a clinical degree and sitting for the extra licensure exam to add the forensic specialty. I do appreciate the input, though.

 

[bikingbabe32]

I'm going to agree with pretty much everything that's been said above.

2) You do seem qualified to attend programs without nearly as much of an attached stigma (as well as the large price tag). Given the difficulties already inherent in the internship matching process, if you have the option not to tempt fate and needlessly handicap yourself, you should take it.



What the hell...I totally think I'm qualified to attend a program without any stigma, let alone one without nearly as much of an attached stigma lol

 

[Buzzwordsoldier]

Just wanted to give props for a total Ludlum-esque conspiracy-thriller thread title... (and I think the advice you've received is solid).

 

[AcronymAllergy]

What the hell...I totally think I'm qualified to attend a program without any stigma, let alone one without nearly as much of an attached stigma lol

Exactly. I understand not wanting to take a year off, but I'd honestly say that doing so (or, as you've said, possibly attending an LCPC program) would then make more sense than attending Argosy. Even if the classes they offer are AMAZING, the attached stigma is going to hurt you; if you have the chance to avoid it (which you do), I'd recommend it.

 

[bikingbabe32]

Yea, avoiding it is pretty much the conclusion I'm arriving at...all solid and very helpful advice, indeed.

Buzzwordsoldier, if I could click I like your comment, I would.

 

[roubs]

I'm going be straight up honest...I simply cannot take another year off. I benefit in no way from doing nothing, I don't develop any new contacts or get any opportunities to do things like participate in research or advance in my field.

I took time off so I understand the 'stuck' feeling and the urgency to go back, but with your credentials you seem to be a competitive applicant already. So do you NEED new/more anything? It's worth considering. The benefit you will get from taking another year is the opportunity to apply to a well regarded Ph.D. program that can get you on track to forensic work. It's also helpful to bank as much $$ as possible before starting grad school.

edit: oh yeah, agreed that The Argosy Stigma would be a great movie title. Might be a depressing flick though if we keep it close to the source material.

 

[graduatingsoon]

I did not see any argosy students at any of the good APA internships when i interviewed either as prospective applicants, post-docs, or interns. That says alot given how many students graduate from these programs each year and how many of them are around in the area.

 

[TherapyCats]

I am an "Argosy Student" and will be starting internship this fall. I received 11 internship interview offers (7 APA-accred, some were quite competitive and in major cities) and matched at my #2 ranked site (APA-accred, University-affiliated psychiatric hospital). Perhaps I am the exception to the rule, but I am proof that internship sites looked beyond the name of the school I attended.

I am happy to speak to you further about my experiences!

 

[erg923]

I don't think it wise to advise or advocate that people attend a program where they need to hope and pray that they become the "exception to the rule" in order to be successful.

 

[MNGradToBe12]

Interesting tidbit. Or not. But I have found 3 PsyD providers here in Duluth, MN who have all matriculated through Argosy. I found that a bit surprising, especially given that one of them is employed by the organization for which I work (albeit in a different field).

 

[TherapyCats]

I wasn't advising or advocating anything, just pointing out that there are some of us that are successful. And I didn't hope and pray for that success, just worked hard. Going to Argosy isn't a death sentence.

I don't think it wise to advise or advocate that people attend a program where they need to hope and pray that they become the "exception to the rule" in order to be successful.

 

[ClinicalPHD5]

Sure there are some people who match for internship from argosy. Given how many students graduate from these programs it is not surprising that a few matched at APA accredited internships. Inpatient Psychiatric hospitals also may be more willing to take on professional school students as opposed to VAs, medical schools etc because these sites may be less desirable for many students from top programs (I'm not saying the training isn't as good, however, many graduate students don't want to work with forensic populations or in prisons so those sites are easier to get into).

However, i'm curious how many of your classmates at argosy did not match to APA accredited internships? What was your APA placement rate overall? How many matched to APA accredited VA internships or at medical schools? How much is the school costing you with living expenses?

I don't get why we don't just focus on the facts overall instead of the few outliers to help students make informed decisions. All of this information is available online for free:

LOOKING AT THE DATA ONLINE, ARGOSY'S PSYD PROGRAM IN CALIFORNIA (OC) HAS AN APA/CPA INTERNSHIP MATCH RATE OF BETWEEN 5% TO A HIGH OF 33%. THIS IS A JOKE FOR A PROGRAM THAT COSTS 150,000 AND TAKES 5 YEARS TO COMPLETE. It should be shut down. Nobody would go to a program that boasts a job rate of 5% after graduating.

HERE IS APA INTERNSHIP RATE DATA PER YEAR FOR CLINICAL PSYD IN CALIFORNIA:

2005: 8% APA/CPA MATCH RATE
2006: 5%
2007: 11%
2008: 12%
2009: 29%
2010: 33%

 

[ClinicalPHD5]

Yikes Argosy's match rates for internship are even worse than I thought and heard of.

More facts: Argosy's clinical psychology program in San Francisco has an APA match rate of between 0% and 20% over the last 7 years. In 2009, 11 students applied for internship and 0 got APA accredited internships. How is this program APA accredited and how is it not shut down? Students instead take on unpaid, unaccredited internships so they are also working full-time for free in an unaccredited site. All of this after 5 years of school and more than 100,000 spent.

I didn't have time to look at every single program online, but the numbers are scary. Would you go to a medical school that boasted a 0% residency match rate for accredited residency programs?

 

[psychmama]

Not sure if Argosy's match rate in states other than CA are better -- I recall someone saying that lots of grads in CA don't even bother with APA or APPIC and go the CAPIC route instead for internship. This could be a factor influencing low match rates.

 

[ClinicalPHD5]

I think many of them do CAPIC internships, but these are both unpaid and unaccredited. Its tragic that the field has allowed unpaid and unaccredited internships to exist. Internship is so intense i can't imagine also not getting paid for the 60 hours of work per week. Some of the CAPIC internships i've seen also have unpaid post-docs at the same site so you can work unpaid after you get your degree as well. This is modern day slavery.

 

[psychmama]

I think many of them do CAPIC internships, but these are both unpaid and unaccredited. Its tragic that the field has allowed unpaid and unaccredited internships to exist. Internship is so intense i can't imagine also not getting paid for the 60 hours of work per week. Some of the CAPIC internships i've seen also have unpaid post-docs at the same site so you can work unpaid after you get your degree as well. This is modern day slavery.

Agree. No other profession that I know of allows its graduates to be paid so poorly for so long. This problem, in fairness, is bigger than just Argosy. It's a problem in clinical psychology as a whole.

 

[roubs]

Not to speak for TherapyCats, but if they go to Argosy-Chicago it used to be the Illinois School of Professional Psych which had a better reputation/match rates than your average Argosy.

 

[FadedC]

One thing I'd be curious about is what other factors beyond pure reputation may effect the match rate at these schools. I know someone who goes to a different poorly regarded professional school (non APA) and they have extremely poor regulation of field experience, as well as very limited requirements for how much you need to graduate. It's very common for someone to get to the internship phase there having had only one short term field position in their entire academic career.....often somewhere fairly limited. Obviously these people have little hope of matching no matter what their school's reputation is.