The Blatant Racism Behind Affirmative Action Opposition

[TriagePreMed]

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2013/08/14/affirmative-action/

"A group of white adults in California were split in two and asked to rank what they consider to be important criteria when evaluating college applications for the University of California. The first group placed a lot of weight on SAT scores and GPAs. Two areas where black people under-perform compared to whites. But when the second group was informed of the fact that the percentage of Asian American undergraduates at the university is double their percentage in the general population, suddenly, grades and test scores weren’t so important. Asian Americans tend to score higher on the SATs nationally and the stereotype of the “smart Asian” is widespread and well known.

Instead, this group that would have sworn on a stack of bibles they were all in favor of a meritocracy just a short time ago, became far more interested in intangible characteristics like “leadership”

Discuss.

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[dirty630]

 

[starx3]

Many people have ingroup favoritism. Including the ADCOMS, (usually white).

And many people still believe the "smart Asian" stereotype becasue stereotype stems from the truth (sometimes) and whenever they see a school-smart/socially awkward asian they reinforce their bias.

Suck for the Asians.

just take a Psych of Prejudice class and you'll see

 

[SunsFun]

The article forgot to mention the third type of racist prevalent on SDN. Those people who, you know, agree to AA in theory but believe that it's implementation overwhelmingly benefits rich black and Hispanic kids at the expense of poor white applicants. Because, you know, there is an army of wealthy black families routinely having their "less capable" children get accepted while poor white children who worked so hard to get accepted are left in the dust.

 

[OCDOCDOCD]

I'm opposed to race based AA (all for SES based AA though) and I don't have a problem with the fact that Asians would be considerably over-represented if the practice were discontinued. I'm white and I think it's wrong that Asians are handicapped by adcoms just for being from a race that's "too successful". I also find it interesting that while Asians are discriminated against by AA because they're so overrepresented, Jews aren't even though they're even more overrepresented than Asians. Not that I'm against Jews being overrepresented either, but it stinks of racism that it's apparently okay to be overrepresented as long as you're white (indeed, I believe that whites in general are overrepresented, yet aren't discriminated against or for by AA).

 

[GoPelicans]

Let's get all these out of the way...

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hLgsqAc4mU[/YOUTUBE]

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18cXl8MgoZs[/YOUTUBE]

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_pfzYD1dXY[/YOUTUBE]

 

[OCDOCDOCD]

The article forgot to mention the third type of racist prevalent on SDN. Those people who, you know, agree to AA in theory but believe that it's implementation overwhelmingly benefits rich black and Hispanic kids at the expense of poor white applicants. Because, you know, there is an army of wealthy black families routinely having their "less capable" children get accepted while poor white children who worked so hard to get accepted are left in the dust.

But it's true. URMs are disproportionately represented in the lower or lower-middle class, which is why AA exists in the first place (it was supposed to fix that). Unfortunately, a fact that was left out while planning AA is that low SES high school students usually don't even apply to college, either because their school system failed them so badly that they don't have a prayer of succeeding in college, or because they've been led to believe by everyone around them that college isn't for them. As a result, the URMs that do apply tend to be from middle or upper class families where opportunities were ample and college education is encouraged if not expected.

Furthermore, AA in its current form is actually fairly racist. AA lets schools discriminate against the legions of Asian applicants to free up more seats for other races. However, since few URMs actually apply there aren't many seats that get taken by them, meaning that a disproportionate amount get reserved for white applicants.

AA also ends up hurting URMs too, albeit less directly. There's not much of a push to address the issues that result in few URM applications to schools thanks to the existence of AA. Most people assume that AA is a fix-all for the problem, not realizing that easier admissions isn't going to help you out when you school system is so pathetic that half its graduates can't even read at a third grade level, or everyone in your community tells you that "college isn't for people like us".

I believe Harvard did an experiment where they eliminated tuition and board for URMs, and found that the number of URM applicants didn't increase at all. Then they sent out promotional materials to inner city schools aimed at high achieving students in those schools and the following year the number of URM applications soared. The problem isn't that URMs can't get accepted to college, it's that they're not even applying. Encouraging them to apply would go a long way, although the underlying societal issues still need to be addressed which is currently not happening (one example: public school systems need to be funded equally by the state, not by school zone taxation, since it results in public schools in wealthy white areas being very good but public schools in poor minority areas being abysmal). AA could still be kept as well, but as SES-based. This would still overwhelmingly benefit URMs until they became equally well represented in the middle and upper class, at which point it could still be kept around to continue giving a leg up to disadvantaged students in general.

 

[metview]

I'm opposed to race based AA (all for SES based AA though) and I don't have a problem with the fact that Asians would be considerably over-represented if the practice were discontinued. I'm white and I think it's wrong that Asians are handicapped by adcoms just for being from a race that's "too successful". I also find it interesting that while Asians are discriminated against by AA because they're so overrepresented, Jews aren't even though they're even more overrepresented than Asians. Not that I'm against Jews being overrepresented either, but it stinks of racism that it's apparently okay to be overrepresented as long as you're white (indeed, I believe that whites in general are overrepresented, yet aren't discriminated against or for by AA).

100% agreed.



Race based AA is garbage and should be eliminated. Rather, AA should be based on income which correlates to the resources that are available to the student. Since, African Americans and Hispanics are usually those that need financial assistance, they will still benefit (which I support 100%); however, URM's from well off families should not be afforded an advantage.

 

[GoPelicans]

100% agreed.

I'm confused. Asians are all tossed into the same basket as one race, just like white people. At the end of the day, adcoms only really care about race, not ethnicity. So why is it a bad thing that nearly all the white representation is Jewish? Did you mean that Jews are overrepresented for white people?

 

[chillaxbro]

I'm opposed to race based AA (all for SES based AA though) and I don't have a problem with the fact that Asians would be considerably over-represented if the practice were discontinued. I'm white and I think it's wrong that Asians are handicapped by adcoms just for being from a race that's "too successful". I also find it interesting that while Asians are discriminated against by AA because they're so overrepresented, Jews aren't even though they're even more overrepresented than Asians. Not that I'm against Jews being overrepresented either, but it stinks of racism that it's apparently okay to be overrepresented as long as you're white (indeed, I believe that whites in general are overrepresented, yet aren't discriminated against or for by AA).

That's because Jews run adcoms at every major institution

 

[ChemEngMD]

Team Wealthy URM checking in.

Jeeves, go get me Mocha Chai Cappuccino...and don't forget that I have a meeting with the head of admissions at HMS this afternoon to get my underachieving, but fortunately dark-skinned, child entrance into his school. Thank God for affirmative action.

 

[Planes2Doc]

But it's true. URMs are disproportionately represented in the lower or lower-middle class, which is why AA exists in the first place (it was supposed to fix that). Unfortunately, a fact that was left out while planning AA is that low SES high school students usually don't even apply to college, either because their school system failed them so badly that they don't have a prayer of succeeding in college, or because they've been led to believe by everyone around them that college isn't for them. As a result, the URMs that do apply tend to be from middle or upper class families where opportunities were ample and college education is encouraged if not expected.

Furthermore, AA in its current form is actually fairly racist. AA lets schools discriminate against the legions of Asian applicants to free up more seats for other races. However, since few URMs actually apply there aren't many seats that get taken by them, meaning that a disproportionate amount get reserved for white applicants.

AA also ends up hurting URMs too, albeit less directly. There's not much of a push to address the issues that result in few URM applications to schools thanks to the existence of AA. Most people assume that AA is a fix-all for the problem, not realizing that easier admissions isn't going to help you out when you school system is so pathetic that half its graduates can't even read at a third grade level, or everyone in your community tells you that "college isn't for people like us".

I believe Harvard did an experiment where they eliminated tuition and board for URMs, and found that the number of URM applicants didn't increase at all. Then they sent out promotional materials to inner city schools aimed at high achieving students in those schools and the following year the number of URM applications soared. The problem isn't that URMs can't get accepted to college, it's that they're not even applying. Encouraging them to apply would go a long way, although the underlying societal issues still need to be addressed which is currently not happening (one example: public school systems need to be funded equally by the state, not by school zone taxation, since it results in public schools in wealthy white areas being very good but public schools in poor minority areas being abysmal). AA could still be kept as well, but as SES-based. This would still overwhelmingly benefit URMs until they became equally well represented in the middle and upper class, at which point it could still be kept around to continue giving a leg up to disadvantaged students in general.

Wow! This was incredibly insightful! Especially since you highlighted the issue of the poorest URMs never even getting to the point of going to college.

I realize that the purpose of URMs is to have these physicians serve their communities. I think the middle-class and higher URMs will take advantage of this, if anything. They will do whatever ECs they need to show their cultural commitment, similar to any typical ORM that picks up ECs to show how they want to help the underserved and all that jazz.

I worked with numerous African immigrants in the past, which includes one Ghanian who I am very close with. I noticed that the culture is very different from the African American culture here. He used to be pre-med, and even though he has no African American friends or has had any desire to ever serve in the African American community, he would "beef up" his ECs just like any other applicant.

No one here is stupid. Everyone will play every move possible in this game. You'd be an idiot not to.

 

[KnowFace]

Asians are all tossed into the same basket as one race, just like white people.

This is something that makes the racism blatantly clear to me. It ignores the unique struggles of every ethnicity, and "yellow-washes" all asian applicants into being "probably chinese with a tiger mom". It ignores the fact that groups like Laotions, Hmong, and Cambodians often live in poverty and have a smaller percentage of their population in higher education than even blacks. Remember that the majority of them came to America as refugees only a few decades ago with literally nothing more than the clothes they were wearing.

 

[DokterMom]

This is something that makes the racism blatantly clear to me. It ignores the unique struggles of every ethnicity, and "yellow-washes" all asian applicants into being "probably chinese with a tiger mom". It ignores the fact that groups like Laotions, Hmong, and Cambodians often live in poverty and have a smaller percentage of their population in higher education than even blacks. Remember that the majority of them came to America as refugees only a few decades ago with literally nothing more than the clothes they were wearing.

Very interesting observation that I've not heard made before -- yet is clearly true.

How to differentiate between the 2nd or 3rd generation Asian-American of highly-educated and Americanized professionals, the 1st generation immigrant child of highly-educated, (but still relatively poor) professionals, and the 'fresh off refugee boat' children with no socioeconomic advantages whatsoever?

The Hispanic URM tries to take that into account somewhat, with Mexicans qualifying and Brazilians and Cubans not. But still, very broad brush strokes. I know plenty of wealthy Mexicans and African Americans who need no help, but will, in highly competitive situations like med school or Ivy league applications, accept every advantage they are offered. (Who wouldn't?)

Not a simple problem -- But it does seem like a SES-based AA program would be more effective as a social equalizer.

One other point I didn't see mentioned here was the social biases implicit in standardized tests. It's so ingrained it's invisible to most mainstream white Americans -- but it's there and it influences test scores.

 

[487806]

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2013/08/14/affirmative-action/

"A group of white adults in California were split in two and asked to rank what they consider to be important criteria when evaluating college applications for the University of California. The first group placed a lot of weight on SAT scores and GPAs. Two areas where black people under-perform compared to whites. But when the second group was informed of the fact that the percentage of Asian American undergraduates at the university is double their percentage in the general population, suddenly, grades and test scores weren't so important. Asian Americans tend to score higher on the SATs nationally and the stereotype of the "smart Asian" is widespread and well known.

Instead, this group that would have sworn on a stack of bibles they were all in favor of a meritocracy just a short time ago, became far more interested in intangible characteristics like "leadership"

Discuss.

I'll be honest with you. By now you should be aware of the following three things.

1. Issues regarding affirmative action are very political and is outside the scope of preallo.
2. There are numerous threads discussing AA and its opposition.
3. Why don't you post this in the sociopolitical subforums of the lounge?

I understand this topic is so very sensitive for you, but it's better to give preallo a break from this topic.

 

[NontradCA]

As a DO applicant I just wanted to point out that there's little AA in their admissions. Whites are seriously over represented at their schools. Asians are hardly represented. I'm not even mad though, it's whatever. I do tend to look down on DO admissions for that fact. There's something to be said about an organization acknowledging an issue and trying to correct it. So I think AA in MD applicants could be a lot worse.

 

[487806]

But it's true. URMs are disproportionately represented in the lower or lower-middle class, which is why AA exists in the first place (it was supposed to fix that). Unfortunately, a fact that was left out while planning AA is that low SES high school students usually don't even apply to college, either because their school system failed them so badly that they don't have a prayer of succeeding in college, or because they've been led to believe by everyone around them that college isn't for them. As a result, the URMs that do apply tend to be from middle or upper class families where opportunities were ample and college education is encouraged if not expected.

Furthermore, AA in its current form is actually fairly racist. AA lets schools discriminate against the legions of Asian applicants to free up more seats for other races. However, since few URMs actually apply there aren't many seats that get taken by them, meaning that a disproportionate amount get reserved for white applicants.

AA also ends up hurting URMs too, albeit less directly. There's not much of a push to address the issues that result in few URM applications to schools thanks to the existence of AA. Most people assume that AA is a fix-all for the problem, not realizing that easier admissions isn't going to help you out when you school system is so pathetic that half its graduates can't even read at a third grade level, or everyone in your community tells you that "college isn't for people like us".

I believe Harvard did an experiment where they eliminated tuition and board for URMs, and found that the number of URM applicants didn't increase at all. Then they sent out promotional materials to inner city schools aimed at high achieving students in those schools and the following year the number of URM applications soared. The problem isn't that URMs can't get accepted to college, it's that they're not even applying. Encouraging them to apply would go a long way, although the underlying societal issues still need to be addressed which is currently not happening (one example: public school systems need to be funded equally by the state, not by school zone taxation, since it results in public schools in wealthy white areas being very good but public schools in poor minority areas being abysmal). AA could still be kept as well, but as SES-based. This would still overwhelmingly benefit URMs until they became equally well represented in the middle and upper class, at which point it could still be kept around to continue giving a leg up to disadvantaged students in general.

I'm quoting this post for future URM and AA threads. Well said.

 

[ChemEngMD]

But it's true. URMs are disproportionately represented in the lower or lower-middle class, which is why AA exists in the first place (it was supposed to fix that). Unfortunately, a fact that was left out while planning AA is that low SES high school students usually don't even apply to college, either because their school system failed them so badly that they don't have a prayer of succeeding in college, or because they've been led to believe by everyone around them that college isn't for them. As a result, the URMs that do apply tend to be from middle or upper class families where opportunities were ample and college education is encouraged if not expected.

Furthermore, AA in its current form is actually fairly racist. AA lets schools discriminate against the legions of Asian applicants to free up more seats for other races. However, since few URMs actually apply there aren't many seats that get taken by them, meaning that a disproportionate amount get reserved for white applicants.

AA also ends up hurting URMs too, albeit less directly. There's not much of a push to address the issues that result in few URM applications to schools thanks to the existence of AA. Most people assume that AA is a fix-all for the problem, not realizing that easier admissions isn't going to help you out when you school system is so pathetic that half its graduates can't even read at a third grade level, or everyone in your community tells you that "college isn't for people like us".

I believe Harvard did an experiment where they eliminated tuition and board for URMs, and found that the number of URM applicants didn't increase at all. Then they sent out promotional materials to inner city schools aimed at high achieving students in those schools and the following year the number of URM applications soared. The problem isn't that URMs can't get accepted to college, it's that they're not even applying. Encouraging them to apply would go a long way, although the underlying societal issues still need to be addressed which is currently not happening (one example: public school systems need to be funded equally by the state, not by school zone taxation, since it results in public schools in wealthy white areas being very good but public schools in poor minority areas being abysmal). AA could still be kept as well, but as SES-based. This would still overwhelmingly benefit URMs until they became equally well represented in the middle and upper class, at which point it could still be kept around to continue giving a leg up to disadvantaged students in general.

Same problem for those who get to undergrad and then drop off the pre-med track. That's why the number of URMs is so low applying to medical school. We don't have the same support structures and faculty connections/mentors that ORMs and whites often do. I think you bring up some good points, but you're glossing over some important details of race in this country and assuming that middle-class URMS do not relate or want to serve their poorer counterparts I think is a bit of an over-assumption, since many of us are only one or two generations removed from those same conditions. I would like to see a study that shows that URM physicians do not go to these neighborhoods. We already know that they'll be more effective in them due to cultural similarities. I believe SNMA and other groups are making active efforts to push URMs to work in those neighborhoods, because they recognize the struggle and the good that we can do there.

 

[midnight0il]

This is something that makes the racism blatantly clear to me. It ignores the unique struggles of every ethnicity, and "yellow-washes" all asian applicants into being "probably chinese with a tiger mom". It ignores the fact that groups like Laotions, Hmong, and Cambodians often live in poverty and have a smaller percentage of their population in higher education than even blacks. Remember that the majority of them came to America as refugees only a few decades ago with literally nothing more than the clothes they were wearing.

I can't this enough. Thank you.

Asian =\= Chinese

 

[Temperature101]

Why all these threads always pop up in the pre-allo forum-- but not in the pre-osteo one?

 

[Temperature101]

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2013/08/14/affirmative-action/

"A group of white adults in California were split in two and asked to rank what they consider to be important criteria when evaluating college applications for the University of California. The first group placed a lot of weight on SAT scores and GPAs. Two areas where black people under-perform compared to whites. But when the second group was informed of the fact that the percentage of Asian American undergraduates at the university is double their percentage in the general population, suddenly, grades and test scores weren't so important. Asian Americans tend to score higher on the SATs nationally and the stereotype of the "smart Asian" is widespread and well known.

Instead, this group that would have sworn on a stack of bibles they were all in favor of a meritocracy just a short time ago, became far more interested in intangible characteristics like "leadership"
Discuss.

This not news... It's human nature that we favor what will benefit us except if you are a poor republican living in the south... Lol.

 

[dreamschool18]

I can't this enough. Thank you.

Asian =\= Chinese

singling out Chinese just brings the argument back to square one. there are also Chinese from disadvantaged backgrounds, just like any other race/ethnicity. please don't generalize.

 

[BioBeaver]

Why does race matter at all? Isn't it "racist" to admit (or not admit) someone based on color at all? Income should matter the most. There are plenty of smart AAs and dumb Asians, but it's those that struggle financially that have the toughest time doing well in school. I think affirmative action itself is racist.

Especially when you're admitting to programs where they will be trusted with the lives of others, only the best should be admitted, regardless of race.

 

[midnight0il]

singling out Chinese just brings the argument back to square one. there are also Chinese from disadvantaged backgrounds, just like any other race/ethnicity. please don't generalize.

That's true. I wasn't implying that there weren't disadvantaged Chinese students. Just that many people equate Asian as being Chinese. You never hear about the Southeast Asians in these discussions.

 

[BlueLabel]

But it's true. URMs are disproportionately represented in the lower or lower-middle class, which is why AA exists in the first place (it was supposed to fix that). Unfortunately, a fact that was left out while planning AA is that low SES high school students usually don't even apply to college, either because their school system failed them so badly that they don't have a prayer of succeeding in college, or because they've been led to believe by everyone around them that college isn't for them. As a result, the URMs that do apply tend to be from middle or upper class families where opportunities were ample and college education is encouraged if not expected.

Furthermore, AA in its current form is actually fairly racist. AA lets schools discriminate against the legions of Asian applicants to free up more seats for other races. However, since few URMs actually apply there aren't many seats that get taken by them, meaning that a disproportionate amount get reserved for white applicants.

AA also ends up hurting URMs too, albeit less directly. There's not much of a push to address the issues that result in few URM applications to schools thanks to the existence of AA. Most people assume that AA is a fix-all for the problem, not realizing that easier admissions isn't going to help you out when you school system is so pathetic that half its graduates can't even read at a third grade level, or everyone in your community tells you that "college isn't for people like us".

I believe Harvard did an experiment where they eliminated tuition and board for URMs, and found that the number of URM applicants didn't increase at all. Then they sent out promotional materials to inner city schools aimed at high achieving students in those schools and the following year the number of URM applications soared. The problem isn't that URMs can't get accepted to college, it's that they're not even applying. Encouraging them to apply would go a long way, although the underlying societal issues still need to be addressed which is currently not happening (one example: public school systems need to be funded equally by the state, not by school zone taxation, since it results in public schools in wealthy white areas being very good but public schools in poor minority areas being abysmal). AA could still be kept as well, but as SES-based. This would still overwhelmingly benefit URMs until they became equally well represented in the middle and upper class, at which point it could still be kept around to continue giving a leg up to disadvantaged students in general.

5 star post. Very well thought out and argued.

 

[HealthHare]

Regarding the comments about only middle class/ wealthy urms applying, you have to realize that this trend is visible across all racial groups. Those that make it to medical school tend to be relatively well off whites, blacks, hispanics, and asians. Money drastically lowers the entry barrier, since it provides the resources for success and allows individuals to use their time constructively towards studying and participating in ECs. A lot of people I knew in UG that dropped pre med had a lot of financial instability, and had to work a lot when they could have been investing their time in building a strong application.

At the end of the day we all have the cards we were dealt and it's up to each individual to decide how he or she will play his or her hand to achieve a personal vision of success. If you have a strong conviction to either eradicate or protect AA, go for it. However, at the same time try not to let it define you and be the dominating context for which your accomplishments are measured against.

 

[barrnrwp]

Asian Americans tend to score higher on the SATs nationally and the stereotype

 

[SixStringPsych]

Same problem for those who get to undergrad and then drop off the pre-med track. That's why the number of URMs is so low applying to medical school. We don't have the same support structures and faculty connections/mentors that ORMs and whites often do. I think you bring up some good points, but you're glossing over some important details of race in this country and assuming that middle-class URMS do not relate or want to serve their poorer counterparts I think is a bit of an over-assumption, since many of us are only one or two generations removed from those same conditions. I would like to see a study that shows that URM physicians do not go to these neighborhoods. We already know that they'll be more effective in them due to cultural similarities. I believe SNMA and other groups are making active efforts to push URMs to work in those neighborhoods, because they recognize the struggle and the good that we can do there.

This.

We're all forgetting the fact that AA does more than just help "fix" societal issues facing minorities. Hell, when it comes to medical school admissions I doubt it even puts a dent in this because of how few students make it to that point like everyone has stated. So it's pretty much negligible and irrelevant to discuss.

The point of admitting more URMs to medical schools is to ensure that a diverse population of physicians grows every year, so that we don't just have a bunch of white doctors who can't relate to the growing population of minorities in the US. They may be able to do their job well, but a large part of being a doctor is relating to the patient.

Regardless, the truth is that URMs are way more likely to go back to disadvantaged neighborhoods to work, even if only on a part-time basis, than ORMs. Even wealthy URMs, like ChemEngMD stated, are more likely to do this. I have no literature or statistics to cite, just pure anecdotal experience. Any URM would agree with me, and I'm sure if there were a study on this, the results would be like I stated.

That's not to say though that no white/asian/jewish doctors want to work with poor minority populations. They've just had less chances to experience what it's like to live in a place like that. Or, if they HAVE volunteered or gone on a medical mission or something, they were just doing it to check off a box on AMCAS and don't really care. Minorities have a connection to their roots that make them want to care, even if they don't live in poverty.

/rant

 

[ChemEngMD]

As far as "yellow-washing" goes there are plenty of schools who are starting to count Southeastern Asians as URM (Vietnamese, Cambodian, Laos, Thai) look at the University of Colorado for instance...I believe 12 of their URMs last year were Vietnamese. Some schools understand the difference.

 

[JustaUnicorn]

Here is a wonderful article on affirmative action for those who truly want to understand:

http://changefromwithin.org/2012/06/06/are-white-students-being-disadvantaged-by-affirmative-action/

also, i this amazing comic =)

http://www.totalmediabridge.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/AffirmativeAction.gif

 

[slopes23]

I'm opposed to race based AA (all for SES based AA though) and I don't have a problem with the fact that Asians would be considerably over-represented if the practice were discontinued. I'm white and I think it's wrong that Asians are handicapped by adcoms just for being from a race that's "too successful". I also find it interesting that while Asians are discriminated against by AA because they're so overrepresented, Jews aren't even though they're even more overrepresented than Asians. Not that I'm against Jews being overrepresented either, but it stinks of racism that it's apparently okay to be overrepresented as long as you're white (indeed, I believe that whites in general are overrepresented, yet aren't discriminated against or for by AA).

Jews aren't a part of the equation because then you would have to take Christians, Catholics, Muslims, Hindu, agnostic, and atheist into account as well. Maybe we should be talking about how Christians are ORM? Cause the vast majority of Whites, Blacks, Asians, and Hispanics are Christian. And yet, I am sure you have no problem with that. How about in other workplaces not medicine. If you argue that Jews are over represented in something and you are favoring those whom are under represented, then you should be all for the under represented in every case. Lets take Jews in government? They are extremely under represented, not to mention ever represented in presidency. Yet I am sure you would have no problem with any of this and would argue why it's okay. How convenient.

 

[ChemEngMD]

Jews aren't a part of the equation because then you would have to take Christians, Catholics, Muslims, Hindu, agnostic, and atheist into account as well. Maybe we should be talking about how Christians are ORM? Cause the vast majority of Whites, Blacks, Asians, and Hispanics are Christian. And yet, I am sure you have no problem with that. How about in other workplaces not medicine. If you argue that Jews are over represented in something and you are favoring those whom are under represented, then you should be all for the under represented in every case. Lets take Jews in government? They are extremely under represented, not to mention ever represented in presidency. Yet I am sure you would have no problem with any of this and would argue why it's okay. How convenient.

Slopes,

Good point, but Jewish people are over-represented in the Senate and the House.

10 current Jewish senators that's 10% of the senate and in the 111th congress there were 45 Jewish congress people out of 435 (~10%) and Jewish people are only 1.73% of the population.

Not trying to flame, just fixing your facts.

 

[BlueLabel]

Slopes,

Good point, but Jewish people are over-represented in the Senate and the House.

10 current Jewish senators that's 10% of the senate and in the 111th congress there were 45 Jewish congress people out of 435 (~10%) and Jewish people are only 1.73% of the population.

Not trying to flame, just fixing your facts.

100 / 44 = 2.27

Statistically we haven't had enough presidents yet for Jews to be proportionally represented. They are slightly underrepresented in the White House, but only because you can't have a fraction of a president.

 

[ChemEngMD]

There are also three Jewish Supreme Court Justices. Jews massively outperform non-Jewish whites in positions of influence in academia, the government, and the professions--just to name a few. They also outperform non-Jewish whites in filling up the classes of elite institutions.

Jews and Asians have a lot in common when it comes to competitiveness in admissions--except Asians aren't considered white and therefore don't get a free ride in the context of AA.

It is said that at some elite universities, Jews comprise 40-50% of the whites, or 20-25% of the student population.

I'm not at all against the ideals that AA embodies; in fact, I support them completely. However, the implementation is so political that the actual outcome, in terms of a good standard of justice, are meaningless. Notions that so-and-so is more likely to go back to their community are data-thin ad hoc rationalizations for a system that was put in place, in reality, to salve turbulent 1960s race relations and give the illusion of equality. The result is that the system is probably as unequal and unfair as ever.

The "return to the community" point is usually only made in the context of medical school admissions, which is why AA in its traditional sense does not apply to medical school. Traditionally, AA was instituted to equal the societal playing field, but in medical admissions it is in order to better suit a changing American patient population.

It might be weird to hear for you, but Spanish speaking Latino patients will feel more comfortable with a Latino physician regardless of how well the White or Asian physician speaks the language (we can tell the difference) and Latino physicians can understand the culture better because we are a part of it. Same thing goes for Black physicians and Native American. You can make the same argument for a Southeast Asian physician returning to his/her community to practice and conducting the majority of his/her business with people of their similar culture/language.

 

[ChemEngMD]

damn, Synth used his gold donor powers to delete his post...I swear I didn't make that quote up!

 

[OCDOCDOCD]

Jews aren't a part of the equation because then you would have to take Christians, Catholics, Muslims, Hindu, agnostic, and atheist into account as well. Maybe we should be talking about how Christians are ORM? Cause the vast majority of Whites, Blacks, Asians, and Hispanics are Christian. And yet, I am sure you have no problem with that. How about in other workplaces not medicine. If you argue that Jews are over represented in something and you are favoring those whom are under represented, then you should be all for the under represented in every case. Lets take Jews in government? They are extremely under represented, not to mention ever represented in presidency. Yet I am sure you would have no problem with any of this and would argue why it's okay. How convenient.

Judaism isn't just a religion though, it's also an ethnicity, so it's unfair to compare it to religions that are just religions like Christianity and atheism.

I'm having trouble understanding your post though. It sounds like you think I'm against Jews being ORMs but all for URMs? I honestly can't figure out what you're trying to say. If I got it right though, then I'd ask you to re-read my post. I was using Jewish overrepresentation as an example of how academic admissions apparently views overrepresentation of a white ethnicity as okay but views overrepresentation of other ethnicities as something that needs to be "corrected".

 

[random1234]

This is something that makes the racism blatantly clear to me. It ignores the unique struggles of every ethnicity, and "yellow-washes" all asian applicants into being "probably chinese with a tiger mom". It ignores the fact that groups like Laotions, Hmong, and Cambodians often live in poverty and have a smaller percentage of their population in higher education than even blacks. Remember that the majority of them came to America as refugees only a few decades ago with literally nothing more than the clothes they were wearing.

Yeah, but Asians weren't forced into slavery and abuse for 200 years.

 

[midnight0il]

Yeah, but Asians weren't forced into slavery and abuse for 200 years.

Japanese American citizens were interned during World War II. Does that compare with slavery? No, of course not...

Because you can't make these types of comparisons.

 

[random1234]

Japanese American citizens were interned during World War II. Does that compare with slavery? No, of course not...

Because you can't make these types of comparisons.

Uh, if I recall, Japanese Americans bombed the US first. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_on_Pearl_Harbor

And they're not that innocent either. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimes

 

[OCDOCDOCD]

Yeah, but Asians weren't forced into slavery and abuse for 200 years.

The Japanese and Chinese enslaved each other and themselves for thousands of years. When Chinese first immigrated to the US in big numbers, they were all but enslaved again. When the Japanese came over, they were locked up in internment camps and had all their property and assets seized and never returned. Koreans also had fun with slavery although granted they managed to avoid any severe discrimination in the US.

Meanwhile the rest of Asia is dirt poor, and a lot of it actually still practices slavery today. Thailand is so bad off that it's main industry is transvestite prostitution and it's second biggest industry is child prostitution (which is itself a form of slavery). Burma still practices slavery today in all its forms, and is also engulfed in permanent civil war. Laos and Myanmar also get the wonderful combination of extreme poverty and totalitarian government. Vietnam and Sri Lanka aren't doing so hot either. Really the only three countries in Asia that don't suck are Japan, South Korea, and China, and I hesitate to list China seeing as how the vast majority of the population still lives in abject poverty. And of those three countries, it's mostly Koreans who are applying to US colleges. The Japanese and Chinese mostly stick to their own countries for education.

But yeah, you're right, those Asian immigrants don't know what it's like to be disadvantaged or to have had ancestors who were once slaves.

 

[random1234]

The Japanese and Chinese enslaved each other and themselves for thousands of years. When Chinese first immigrated to the US in big numbers, they were all but enslaved again. When the Japanese came over, they were locked up in internment camps and had all their property and assets seized and never returned. Koreans also had fun with slavery although granted they managed to avoid any severe discrimination in the US.

Meanwhile the rest of Asia is dirt poor, and a lot of it actually still practices slavery today. Thailand is so bad off that it's main industry is transvestite prostitution and it's second biggest industry is child prostitution (which is itself a form of slavery). Burma still practices slavery today in all its forms, and is also engulfed in permanent civil war. Laos and Myanmar also get the wonderful combination of extreme poverty and totalitarian government. Vietnam and Sri Lanka aren't doing so hot either. Really the only three countries in Asia that don't suck are Japan, South Korea, and China, and I hesitate to list China seeing as how the vast majority of the population still lives in abject poverty. And of those three countries, it's mostly Koreans who are applying to US colleges. The Japanese and Chinese mostly stick to their own countries for education.

But yeah, you're right, those Asian immigrants don't know what it's like to be disadvantaged or to have had ancestors who were once slaves.

This has nothing to do with Americans. Africans were directly targeted, enslaved, and had the crap beaten out of them on US soil, by Americans. What other countries do to each other is not a basis for Affirmative Action in the US.

 

[OCDOCDOCD]

Uh, if I recall, Japanese Americans bombed the US first. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_on_Pearl_Harbor

And they're not that innocent either. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimes

Are you seriously saying that it's okay that the Japanese were discriminated against because their country went to war?

I guess that means you'd be fine with any population that gets enslaved or imprisoned by a country they went to war with. Come to think of it, I think that was a common practice in certain parts of Africa awhile back. Except that they tended to not keep those slaves but instead sold them to wealthy foreign merchants who then took them to other countries along trade routes in the Atlantic that formed the shape of a triangle...a "triangle trade" if you will.

This has nothing to do with Americans. Africans were directly targeted, enslaved, and had the crap beaten out of them on US soil, by Americans. What other countries do to each other is not a basis for Affirmative Action in the US.

Yeah, except that a lot of Asians are fresh immigrants from those countries, or are 1st generation descendants of immigrants from those countries. It's relevant when you're claiming that a race's past is grounds for affirmative action.

 

[487806]

Yeah, but Asians weren't forced into slavery and abuse for 200 years.

Lolwut. I guess you never heard of the Sino-Japanese War.

 

[487806]

This has nothing to do with Americans. Africans were directly targeted, enslaved, and had the crap beaten out of them on US soil, by Americans. What other countries do to each other is not a basis for Affirmative Action in the US.

Chinese Exclusion Act. World War I nativism and hypernationalism. Emergency Quota Act of 1921. Japanese internment camps in World War II.

Don't leave out history when you're ranting.

 

[487806]

Uh, if I recall, Japanese Americans bombed the US first. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_on_Pearl_Harbor

And they're not that innocent either. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimes

Why are you confusing Japanese Americans with the Meiji Japan? I like how you criticize the stereotyping of blacks yet you're stereotyping Japanese Americans as militant saboteurs. Irony at its finest.

You seem to flaunt your history knowledge cheerfully, but you may need to refresh your knowledge.

 

[BlueLabel]

Look I have hesitated to comment on this thread, but I feel I should at least say this much: I think the recent remarks highlight the fact that when you trace back far enough, at some point some group of humans was awful to another. Competition between African civilizations, the warfare between the Xiongnu and Han china, the barbarism the Visigoths committed against roman civilians, and the barbarism Romans committed against Carthaginian civilians. What about the awful treatment angles, Jutes, and Saxons experienced when Scandinavian pillagers ravaged their shores? Human history is a litany of aggrievement after aggrievement. Practically ANY cutoff seems incredibly arbitrary and self-serving. I think as a species we are far better off trying to help others where possible vs assigning blame and fault and penalizing races accordingly. There are structural problems that must be addressed. But we can't pursue this through a prism of blame and wrongdoing; extended back logically, the argument becomes facile and pointless.

 

[487806]

Are you seriously saying that it's okay that the Japanese were discriminated against because their country went to war?

I guess that means you'd be fine with any population that gets enslaved or imprisoned by a country they went to war with. Come to think of it, I think that was a common practice in certain parts of Africa awhile back. Except that they tended to not keep those slaves but instead sold them to wealthy foreign merchants who then took them to other countries along trade routes in the Atlantic that formed the shape of a triangle...a "triangle trade" if you will.

According to the great historian random1234, Americans should despise Britons and Germans, because the former were enslaving us during the colonial era "no taxation wothout representation", and because the latter was cruel to Jews.

 

[BlueLabel]

According to the great historian random1234, Americans should despise Britons and Germans, because the former were enslaving us during the colonial era "no taxation wothout representation", and because the latter was cruel to Jews.

Is that dig in my direction? No need to be rude, if you dispute my point ill address it earnestly.

 

[midnight0il]

Uh, if I recall, Japanese Americans bombed the US first. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_on_Pearl_Harbor

And they're not that innocent either. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimes

By that logic, you're saying every Muslim person in American should be accountable for 9/11 or the Boston Marathon bombing?

 

[BlueLabel]

By that logic, you're saying every Muslim person in American should be accountable for 9/11 or the Boston Marathon bombing?

Just realized there was actually a poster called "random1234", retract my earlier statement