Dismiss Notice
Hey Texans—join us for a DFW meetup! Click here to learn more.

the bull**** of the healthcare industry -- read the new forbes magazine

Discussion in 'General Residency Issues' started by swiftly, Nov 26, 2005.

  1. swiftly

    swiftly Junior Member
    5+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2005
    Messages:
    13
    Likes Received:
    0
    Status:
    Medical Student
    It really pisses me off to see the cover and then to read the new Forbes magazine issue for this month. In it, it shows law firms exploiting doctors for millions, health insurance execs making millions and doctors, not these fake plastic surgeons in Beverly Hills but real doctors who actually help people, making relatively modest salaries in comparison. I mean, sure we'll make good money, but when looking at the big picture, our jobs entail saving people and saving lives and making it possible for idiots in charge of health insurances to keep their *******es alive so they can exploit us even more. Guaranteed that CEO will have some serious medical issue one day....if you get him as a patient, what will you think...Well, our jobs have been fundamentally reduced to not thinking about the extra-curricular stuff that belittles our work and to just go about our business working endless amount of hours servicing ungrateful people...(And please, not all patients are ungrateful...I am just exaggerating that fact)...On a serious level, it's the poor and underserved who deserve the healthcare....it's hard enough being poor...when you're poor, you get ****ty insurance that does not cover ****, a hospital that has lines up to three hours long to see a doctor (or most likely a PA), and then you have to deal with even more BS after that. A basketball player's minimum salary is around $400K...I mean, come on.... Look, I know in the grand scheme of the things, we still got to go out, work hard, and be great doctors for the public not because of the money but for the love of the job... But honestly, should there not be some relative fairness in this society. I mean ask the man sitting at a basketball game who just a had a triple bypass surgery, "Does your doctor who saved your life deserve more than the basketball player running around putting a ball through a netted hoop????" Mmmmm....Eventually, us doctors have to get together and put an end to this corruption of pharmaceuticals, insurances, malpractice and countless other F'ed up things in our industry.. I am sorry for the profanity and the tone in my writing, but helping people is our lives....maybe society needs to get some help.....
     
  2. Note: SDN Members do not see this ad.

  3. FACS

    FACS jolly good fellow
    5+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2005
    Messages:
    119
    Likes Received:
    0
    You sound like a damn commy!

    Seriously, my advice to you is for you to stop reading Forbes magazine. It's not doing anything good for your peace of mind. Go exersize or something and work off all that anger. :)
     
  4. SimulD

    SimulD Senior Member
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2001
    Messages:
    1,622
    Likes Received:
    3
    I take issue with almost everything he/she just said, but as a huge basketball fan ...

    People have been through this before. It's supply/demand. An NBA basketball player? There is 30 teams and a 12 man roster. That means a total of 360 ball players. The BEST 360 ball players in the world. It makes sense that if you are the best at anything, you get compensated. Plus, their careers are so short. Plus, they make their bosses so much money. Plus, people are willing to pay their salaries (by way of tickets, nachos, athletic shoes, and those big pointy fingers).

    It's not like Ben Wallace had an idea in 8th grade homeroom and said, "Hey, I'm going to go out and be the best rebounder in the league, make a million dollars, and buy my mom a palace." Out of millions of people in the world that play basketball, he was more talented and dedicated. And so he gets paid lots of money.

    The 360 best and most hardworking lawyers, software designers, investment bankers, doctors, salesman, real estate agents, landscape artists all make comparable salaries to the NBA players. Why? Because they are the very best at their field. It's just that they aren't on TV, and you don't know how much money they make. I bet the sum total of Dr. Chopra, Dr. Weill, and Dr. Cornish's yearly incomes would make relax your sphincters with such fury that there would be feces all over your ankles.

    Quit picking on basketball players. Sheesh.

    S
     
  5. APACHE3

    APACHE3 Senior Member
    5+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2005
    Messages:
    564
    Likes Received:
    0
    Actually professional sport in US, does NOT play by supply and demand. Both baseball and football operate under specific protective anti competition laws enacted by Congress. I actually think that if Docs unionized like the baseball or football players association we would all be better off. All docs guaranteed a minimum salary, no matter where there are, what school etc. fight the trial lawyers collectively not state by state. fight continued encroachment into our professional field by midlevel health professionals, etc. I agree, is society better off because someone can put a leather ball throught a hoop? no. But society seems to not care. But their apathy, etc, could be used to our advantage and if unionized we can command better attention from our lawmakers, insurance companies, etc. Look what the nurses did to Arnold? Unions have great power if properly used...I think our profession needs a drastic change if it will survive intact in the future. my .02 worth..now start flamming!!! :D
     
  6. (nicedream)

    (nicedream) Fitter Happier
    7+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2004
    Messages:
    2,042
    Likes Received:
    1

    That line of thinking doesn't really work in this case. If it was purely supply/demand, doctors would command much higher salaries - despite the large # of physicians, there is still a shortage and certainly a high demand for medical care. Medicine is fairly free from the laws of supply/demand because the fees are set by the government (unless you are in a cash practice). In addition, the people who need care the most, are the ones that cannot afford it (no preventive care = larger problems). The physicians who DO make money, are the ones that DO exploit market economics - and in return they are looked down upon for not being as noble as their colleagues.

    Simply put, a profession cannot insist on serving people that cannot afford it without taking a big hit. If doctors want to start making more $, they should all dump 3rd party payers completely. Poor people would receive no care, but high profits and low compensation are incongruous.
     
  7. ThinkFast007

    ThinkFast007 Senior Member
    5+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2004
    Messages:
    830
    Likes Received:
    3
    this sounds like a great idea. has this ever been attempted?

    i wish the AMA or whatever subspecialty organization there was would band together and coem up w/ a similar scheme.
     
  8. swiftly

    swiftly Junior Member
    5+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2005
    Messages:
    13
    Likes Received:
    0
    Status:
    Medical Student
    Look, I understand that maybe that I sounded a little angry but I am very passionate about the fact that the people who service this country (teachers, doctors, etc..) take a real hit. I do believe that a union would do wonders and it takes all of us future doctors to unite together to do something about it and cooperate with the government in controlling an industry that has gone way too out of control... I really just wanted to get some flames started because doctors work way too damn hard sometimes to even notice the politics and business that control our industry and service. What happened to the good old days??? Well, I was not alive then but the doctors I have spoken to who were really wish those days when insurance companies didn't make decisions on healthcare were still around.

    By the way, to the person who labelled me a commy..do you even know what communism is? And don't start referring to Cuba, China, Stalinism or any other fake communistic regime....those are totalitarian governments...Think before you speak...Communism really isn't a bad thing in theory, it's just been destroyed by dictators who think they knew what communism is.
     
  9. banner

    banner Senior Member
    7+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2003
    Messages:
    155
    Likes Received:
    2

    Dude, what are you talking about? Communism doesn't work because people are inherently greedy, be it the masses or the leaders. And if you think that you're making too little money for your skills now, do you think you'd be better off in a "pure" communist state where you'd make the same $$$ as the guy digging a ditch down the street?

    People here pay for what they want and not for what they need, and they certainly won't pay for what you deem a noble cause. That's why your patients will all drive a lexus and they'll complain about a $15 copay.

    And in terms of MDs unionizing... Yeah right. They're all a bunch of pu##ies.

    So face it, if you want to make a lot of $$ for no skills, go into business.
    We'll never change that fact.
     
  10. docB

    docB Chronically painful
    Physician Moderator Emeritus Lifetime Donor Classifieds Approved 10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2002
    Messages:
    7,742
    Likes Received:
    211
    Status:
    Attending Physician
    While this may be true it is likely illegal for docs to unionize. In the past whenever docs have discussed unionizing the government (which has an interest in controlling medical costs) has threatened to use RICO laws against us. Briefly, the idea is that we are basically independent providers and if we unionized that would amount to collusion and price fixing. That's why there is some push to unionize residents. They are bona fide employees and not independent. The reason no one ever succdessfully organizes residents is that they are a transient bunch, they are willing to accept their lot because it's a means to an end and they don't make much money so they can't pay much in dues.
     
  11. Bobblehead

    Bobblehead Senior Member
    Physician 10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2003
    Messages:
    685
    Likes Received:
    83
    Status:
    Attending Physician
    Actually: www.cirseiu.org

    CIR/SEIU claims a membership of 12,000 residents. Their salary and fringe benefit negotiations are pretty reasonable.
     
  12. Finally M3

    Finally M3 Senior Member
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2002
    Messages:
    974
    Likes Received:
    2
    Status:
    Attending Physician
    Resident's are employees. Thus, it's ok to form a union.

    For the most part, attendings are independents. Unionizing would inevitably result in saying "We will receive X amount of money for this procedure or you can go to hell". And this would be price fixing, subject to RICO prosecution.
     
  13. docB

    docB Chronically painful
    Physician Moderator Emeritus Lifetime Donor Classifieds Approved 10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2002
    Messages:
    7,742
    Likes Received:
    211
    Status:
    Attending Physician
    What are their dues?
     
  14. Fantasy Sports

    Fantasy Sports Senior Member
    5+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2004
    Messages:
    414
    Likes Received:
    0
    So what about doctors in groups? Are they employees?

    Do lawyers who are in firms get any union benefits (I havent heard of any, but who knows)
     
  15. BKN

    BKN Senior Member
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2005
    Messages:
    1,560
    Likes Received:
    4
    Two problems with your thoughts. The first is that independent practitioners cannot unionize as was pointed out above. Some physicians in groups (particularly EM) are employees, but organizing in that cirumstance is difficult at best.

    The bigger problem is with your thinking that we could cooperate with a government in controlling an industry that has gone way out of control. Who do you think the biggest purchaser of health care service is? It's the feds through Medicare, Medicaid, VA and tricare(or whatever it's called now). This makes up more than half of the healthcare dollar.

    The government is setting the prices. It can do that because it has a monopsony. (antonym of monopoly; Great word meaning a market in which there are many selllers but only one buyer). Healthcare will never be a free market, because the patients are pressured (I'm sick) and will not shop for lower prices. That assumes anybody could tell you what the price will be.

    The government is also prohibiting balance billing for medicare and medicaid patients. Thus they are setting the prices for the whole industry. HMOs are just following behind, attempting to imitate the feds. They are not as successful since they don't have jail time as a bargaining tactic.

    I'm not saying that I disapprove of all this. I think it's simply an attempt to keep the price of healthcare within the reach of all of us. I'm just saying that if you think the government is going to help us, you clearly don't understand the situation.

    Also, as a guy who spent 11 years in the military, don't even think of a true one payer system. It would be even worse. Go check out the mil med thread for details.

    BKN ;)
     
  16. BKN

    BKN Senior Member
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2005
    Messages:
    1,560
    Likes Received:
    4
    Sorry about double post, browser problems
     
  17. BKN

    BKN Senior Member
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2005
    Messages:
    1,560
    Likes Received:
    4
    soorrrry about triple post. browser browser problems
     
  18. Finally M3

    Finally M3 Senior Member
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2002
    Messages:
    974
    Likes Received:
    2
    Status:
    Attending Physician
    The individual doctor in a group may be an employee...but if the group is large enough, they can be accused of price fixing (see North Dakota & radiologists), or if there is evidence that different physician groups in the same area are collaborating in some way to set a standardized price.

    But yes, it's bass akwards in that the government can set Medicare prices, and many insurers will base their reimbursement of the Medicare price.
     
  19. toofache32

    15+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2003
    Messages:
    3,873
    Likes Received:
    34
    Status:
    Resident [Any Field]
    How so? Based on what?
     
  20. raptor5

    raptor5 Fooled by Randomness
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    May 28, 2003
    Messages:
    1,022
    Likes Received:
    3
    The latest Olympics would prove otherwise.

    If 60K people would come to watch me see patients I would be living like a Minnesota Viking. Add to that PPV, broadcast TV advertisements, and endorsements from Nike with lingo like Just Surgurize It or Just Prescribe It. This could all be solved if I could sell space on my labcoat to Drug Companies. That was an economic dissertation idea of mine that really didn't pan out.
     
  21. ericdopt

    ericdopt Member
    5+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2005
    Messages:
    104
    Likes Received:
    0
    Status:
    Resident [Any Field]

    :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


    Actually though my facial expression was more like this when I read your post:scared:
    Dude, I don't even know where to begin with this statement. "Communism isn't a bad thing in theory"! Let me guess, you are straight out of college/undergrad, mommy or daddy is probably a very successful professional, and you've never wanted for much in your life. Usually, it is these types of people who believe that somehow socialism/communism is the answer. You bought the whole socialism/communism is great BS from your tenured professors at your local university or worse, private school, where their inflated salaries are paid for by parents who can afford to send their kids to those universities BECAUSE of capitalism. The only people who say "communism isn't a bad thing in theory", are the people who never have to work in the real world, or who have never worked yet (ie- students or professors).

    Unions are the answer? Unions destroyed the steel industry and is destroying the auto industry. They had their place, now the only thing they seem to do is protect the incompetent and are a funnel to the DNC. And yes, I come from a union household. I believe in capitalism because I came from nothing, and I see it as the ONLY way to improve the lives of millions. Is it perfect? Hell no, but then again nothing is.
     
  22. dinosaurcrumpet

    5+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2005
    Messages:
    34
    Likes Received:
    0

    I checked out that link. It's not really a "union" is it? Not in the old "sorry guv'nor, can't do it.... union rules, y'know" sense of the word. It's more of an advocacy group isn't it? I guess they did some good pioneering work on the 80 week issue but seems like these days their balls are dry. The "active issues" on the website are just a bunch of touchy-feely outreach missions.

    Am I wrong about this?
     
  23. swiftly

    swiftly Junior Member
    5+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2005
    Messages:
    13
    Likes Received:
    0
    Status:
    Medical Student
    First of all moron, I worked my ass off just to pay my through undergrad to get into medical school because my parents let my ass go when I was young...so thanks for you stupid ass assumption. Second of all I majored in biology and the philosophy I came to understand were my years studying it on my own and discussing it with people, who unlike yourself, usually have their foot out of their mouths while they speak or write. It's ok though, because I realized you became a perfect idiotic doctor in the first two sentences you wrote...without even any discussion, you assumed something and made your diagnosis.. Now I can understand why so many in this country have such a negative view on doctors...we don't even wait for a second to think sometimes, we just go on and automatically think of some label or generalization to categorize the person we are speaking to.... Communism has never ever been tested in practice and Marx or Engels would laugh in their graves if you told them otherwise, so don't act like you actually know anything about communism. I am not a communist, but I did take offense to someone accusing me of being one with probably no knowledge of communism actually is.

    As far as any of this whole post is concerned, I am glad I brought it up because maybe for just one second, we all take our heads out of asses and the books we study and realize either we aren't doing a very good job or we're getting screwed...

    And by the way, to this idiot who automatically deciphered my entire life by one statement, go take look in the mirror and jab a pen in your eye for me...I wouldn't want you go back to real world only to make a fool out of yourself again...Is that peaceful enough for you or should I go ask your mommy and daddy for permission to write such offensive stuff?

     
  24. toofache32

    15+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2003
    Messages:
    3,873
    Likes Received:
    34
    Status:
    Resident [Any Field]
    simmer down, simmer down!
     
  25. 8744

    8744 Guest

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2001
    Messages:
    9,323
    Likes Received:
    168
    Status:
    Non-Student
    No no no no. You don't get. The level of control required to enforce communist practices on the majority of people who are not willing to set aside their own self-interest for the promise of a future utopia absolutely and inevitably requires a dictator.

    While it is true that people may live happily and in freedom in small communes enjoying the benifits of communism, when applied to whole nations the practice rapidly deteriorates into tyranny. You can can leave a commune or a kibbutz. You cannot, as the example of the Berlin Wall should remind you, leave a communist worker's paradise.

    I don't know what university you attended but you need to call them and demand a refund.
     
  26. Poety

    5+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2004
    Messages:
    2,227
    Likes Received:
    1
    Status:
    Resident [Any Field]
    :laugh:

    :eek:

    Panda, what if Ghandi was the dictator? :laugh:
     
  27. 8744

    8744 Guest

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2001
    Messages:
    9,323
    Likes Received:
    168
    Status:
    Non-Student
    Even Mother Terasa, if she had the power to dictate your job, your salary, and your home, would be an insufferable tyrant.
     
  28. ericdopt

    ericdopt Member
    5+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2005
    Messages:
    104
    Likes Received:
    0
    Status:
    Resident [Any Field]

    Wow!...from such a vitriolic response, I guess I can assume I hit the nail directly on the head.
     
  29. HamOnWholeWheat

    HamOnWholeWheat Senior Member
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2002
    Messages:
    326
    Likes Received:
    2

    That had me laughing my ass off! He accuses you of making an incorrect assumption based on a lack of information, and you respond by making another one! Oh the irony. :laugh:
     
  30. SergeGainsbourg

    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2005
    Messages:
    83
    Likes Received:
    2
    I'll second that.
     
  31. SergeGainsbourg

    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2005
    Messages:
    83
    Likes Received:
    2
    Zactly! :thumbup:
     
  32. SergeGainsbourg

    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2005
    Messages:
    83
    Likes Received:
    2
    That's because it's essentially unpracticable. It's not like people haven't tried. ;)
     
  33. SergeGainsbourg

    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2005
    Messages:
    83
    Likes Received:
    2
    Then we'd be ruled by the iron fist of Ghandi. :eek:


    Actually, with his own entourage and political followers, Ghandi was a rather obsessive control freak. Not surprizing really, considering he was one of the great pioneers of passive aggression. ;)
     
  34. ericdopt

    ericdopt Member
    5+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2005
    Messages:
    104
    Likes Received:
    0
    Status:
    Resident [Any Field]

    Umm...not if I purposefully chose those words, it was in response to the whole lame "Ass-U-me" I've heard since elementary school. I still stand by the fact that no one would get that defensive if what I said wasn't somewhat true.
     
  35. HamOnWholeWheat

    HamOnWholeWheat Senior Member
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2002
    Messages:
    326
    Likes Received:
    2
    So if I said you were likely Hitler and Eva's love child, and you got upset about it (maybe its a sensitive topic because you lost family during the war), does that mean that it was "somewhat true" that you're Hitler's lovechild?

    Ridiculous analogy, I know. But just because someone gets pissed when you belittle their opinons and make assumptions about their upbringing, doesn't mean your assumptions are correct.

    Remember in grade school when you said "who farted?", and then everyone started shouting "he who smelt it, dealt it!" Whether you were responsible for the fart or not, it never failed that some kid always assumed from the "vitriole" of your protests that you must be "somewhat responsible". Don't be that kid. :p

    HamOn
     
  36. ericdopt

    ericdopt Member
    5+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2005
    Messages:
    104
    Likes Received:
    0
    Status:
    Resident [Any Field]
     
  37. 8744

    8744 Guest

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2001
    Messages:
    9,323
    Likes Received:
    168
    Status:
    Non-Student
    Don't you know that communism is the beloved ideology of academia who, when granted tenure, are immune to the economic realities that most of us face? That's the ideal of the intelligentisia. To have a secure, low-stress, non-productive job where results don't matter and no career-enhancing theory is ever put into practice. Then you can asuage your guilt by pontificating to the rest of us about social justice and equality.

    Of course, the most vocal proponents of marxism always imagine themselves in positions of authority when the revolution comes. I'm sure there would be less enthusiasm for Marx if college professors put their ideology into practice, quit their cushy jobs, and picked fruit for the masses.
     
  38. toofache32

    15+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2003
    Messages:
    3,873
    Likes Received:
    34
    Status:
    Resident [Any Field]
    I can light farts.
     
  39. Sebastian.

    Sebastian. Member
    5+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2005
    Messages:
    86
    Likes Received:
    0
  40. hello23

    hello23 Senior Member
    5+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2004
    Messages:
    119
    Likes Received:
    0
     
  41. PatrickBateman

    PatrickBateman Senior Member
    5+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2005
    Messages:
    103
    Likes Received:
    1
    :laugh: Best post in this thread yet. :thumbup:
     

Share This Page