The Case For an M.D.,D.O. Degree

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DO is a recognized degree in the U.S., while MBBS is not (but shares a more similar philosophy). Why would it be necessary to switch from one U.S. recognized degree (DO) to another (MD) in the U.S.?

please forgive my error. change one word:

DO is an awarded degree in the U.S., while MBBS is not (but shares a more similar philosophy). Why would it be necessary to switch from one U.S. awarded degree (DO) to another (MD) in the U.S.?

thanks for your time and attention.

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Add Poland:

The AOA earned a victory this week for osteopathic physicians seeking to practice internationally. On 7/8/09, the AOA received a letter from the Medical University of Lublin, Poland, notifying us that they are ready to begin the process that would allow US-trained DOs to gain practice rights in the country. Although the process may last up to three months and requires much document submission, it is the first time an osteopathic physician has been able to obtain licensure and recognition in Poland. According to the AOA Bureau of International osteopathic Medical Education and Affairs, the AOA has now attained practice rights for US-trained DOs in over 45 nations.
 
Ummm....DOs have NOT been around for 200 years - 1809? AT Still was not yet born. But thanks for the history lesson.

Thanks for the recomendation, but Ive read Gevitzs book several times already. Ive also met the guy.

What you state is essentially word for word what he writes in his book. Its nothing new. What Gevitz failed to address in his book is why these two systems of medicine need to exsist, when they are clinically identical. Critics of his writing agree the book side steps the issue that DO schools are idnetical to MD schools in the modern era, and so why the separation? His book is essentially a one sided history lesson about DOs.

So while I know you like Gevitz, and I agree with you on some of this, realize his point of view and his book has some bias in it.
We need to still take serious consideration that our degrees DO NOT represent our current state of practice and their marketability
will be a question in this century of medicine - merge us.

Voice yourself to the AOA president: http://blogs.do-online.org/aoapresident.php

Yup it's NOT 200 years (thats more the age of our country, not DOs) thanks I already acknowledged that mistake. I made the recommendation of Gevitz book not as much to you but to some of the pre-meds, early med students, and other not as far along the trail. And yes much of I said was a brief bit of history out of his book but the history in the book is fairly accurate and very useful to help understand some of the current stances of the AOA and AMA.

And I do think the end of his book is somewhat disappointing in that it ignores certain current issues for DOs. I also agree with you that it makes more sense for assimilation but I just don't see it happening. Personally I don't see a reason to be as stubborn as the AOA has been but to me thats just how it is so we should try to make it better. When nearly 25% of med students graduating are DOs it will make it more and more difficult for people to not know what they are. Though it would be nice to have the AOA address this issue in a way other than just upping the number of students when its often argued there are not the resources to support it.
 
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I'm not a doctor yet. I haven't seen a single statement yet from any of you kiddies as to why an initials change should be addressed before post graduate opportunites/quality, entrance stats, OMM content, or content of board exams are addressed. All I see are a bunch of MD wannabe's who couldn't do so well on the MCAT and used DO as a backup and are now screaming "WE DO THE SAME THING SO WE SHOULD BE CALLED MD!"

Wait... you're not a doctor yet???! I recall you making fun of my stance of being a 4th year med student, claiming that you were a 4th year as well... what the heck happened since January???

You know what bothers me? I'm a DO currently at a prestigious allopathic program, and what does my prescription pad say?

Ceftazidime, MD.

I probed into the reason for this, and what I found out was that all DOs at our program were given this designation to keep things simple and prevent patient or pharmacist doubts about credentials. Similar to MBBSs who use the designation MD... in fact, this is probably the means in which this equivalence between MBBS and MD came about. You gotta admit, it is simpler to have one designation for all prescribing entities. It's kinda strange though, while I argued for a designation change throughout the last 4 years, I kind of like the fact that I can outshine my MD colleagues during intern year with a "DO" embroidered on my coat and badge, and the fact that I can treat musculoskeletal problems without medications. Regardless, while I agree that there needs to be a step up in quantity and quality of osteopathic residencies, it is idiotic to oppose a change to MD/DO.

Here is the reason, plain and simple: More qualified applicants will apply to osteopathic medical schools if they grant the "MD/DO" degree. It's sad, but true. If it remains "DO" and more osteopathic medical schools continue to open, while allopathic schools continue to expand, where are all the osteopathic matriculants going to come from? They are going to be the applicants that scored a 20 on the MCAT and barely made it through undergrad. While those that scored a 28 on the MCAT and 3.4 GPA who, 5 years ago would have been DOs, will now take the new allopathic spots. Open your eyes and realize that the letters "MD" are simply more marketable. If we are allowed to participate in MD residencies (where all the real learning truly occurs anyway), there is absolutely no reason why our designation should not be identical with the additional acknowledgement of our musculoskeletal diagnostic/therapeutic techinques.
 
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You know what bothers me? I'm a DO currently at a prestigious allopathic program, and what does my prescription pad say?

Ceftazidime, MD.

I probed into the reason for this, and what I found out was that all DOs at our program were given this designation to keep things simple and prevent patient or pharmacist doubts about credentials.

My prescription pad says "DO" and I've never had a patient or pharmacy call me on it. Though I wouldn't say my university allopathic residency would be considered prestigious. Maybe that's the difference. *shrug*
 
I still wonder what would happen if a DO petitioned his state to use the MD designation. With MBBS's being able to, you'd think there would be precedence and he couldn't possibly be turned down. All it takes is for one person to do it and DO's across the country can challenge it if that's what they want. In the end, only those who didn't take the USMLE's and do an allo residency and those truly WANT to be DO's will keep the DO letters.
 
I still wonder what would happen if a DO petitioned his state to use the MD designation. With MBBS's being able to, you'd think there would be precedence and he couldn't possibly be turned down. All it takes is for one person to do it and DO's across the country can challenge it if that's what they want. In the end, only those who didn't take the USMLE's and do an allo residency and those truly WANT to be DO's will keep the DO letters.

In NYS someone with a MBBS with a state medical license can petition the state to issue them an MD degree from SUNY. DO's can't do it because it's not considered a foreign degree. I think it would be pretty funny if someone did try and got it. I'd imagine a huge influx of DO's trying to get NYS medical licenses. Would be a total revenue generator for NY.
 
I really don't understand the arguments going around here...so far, the premise for changing the degree are centered around recognition (either by patients or peers) and convenience. Can't we just be happy with making 6 figures and being able to treat patients?
 
In NYS someone with a MBBS with a state medical license can petition the state to issue them an MD degree from SUNY. DO's can't do it because it's not considered a foreign degree. I think it would be pretty funny if someone did try and got it. I'd imagine a huge influx of DO's trying to get NYS medical licenses. Would be a total revenue generator for NY.

But don't you think a DO would have a case if they wanted to get the MD since MBBS's can do it? An MD can be more marketable and some people seem to want it. I don't see what legal ground there would be for a state licensing board that grants MD's to MBBS's to turn down a DO.
 
Wait... you're not a doctor yet???! I recall you making fun of my stance of being a 4th year med student, claiming that you were a 4th year as well... what the heck happened since January???

I'm a resident. In 3-4 more years I will consider myself a doctor. Argue semantics if you want.
 
I really don't understand the arguments going around here...so far, the premise for changing the degree are centered around recognition (either by patients or peers) and convenience. Can't we just be happy with making 6 figures and being able to treat patients?

You would think, wouldn't you.
 
But don't you think a DO would have a case if they wanted to get the MD since MBBS's can do it? An MD can be more marketable and some people seem to want it. I don't see what legal ground there would be for a state licensing board that grants MD's to MBBS's to turn down a DO.

That fact that there is a separate licensing body for DO's in most states prevent that; requirements are written per state policy, as far as I can recall, and they are fairly firm. There are some states that have only one licensing body, but they usually contain both MD and DO board members; the DO board members would likely oppose it. Besides, at the organizational level, the AOA would actively block any attempts to side-step. You could try to challenge state regulations, but it would likely be unsuccessful and you would only end up looking like an ass.

It is logical for those holding MBBS degrees to take on the MD degree, since in their country that is the equivalent for the standard practice of medicine, and no such degree exists in the US. In the US, it has been established that both the MD and DO are separate entities, both of which can be earned in the US, but legally equivalent to practice medicine. They are separate, but equal. Until the AOA gives up it's stance, hold, and power, your proposal is very unlikely to occur.

Having a DO degree in no way hampers your practice. I just don't see what all the noise is all about.
 
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But don't you think a DO would have a case if they wanted to get the MD since MBBS's can do it? An MD can be more marketable and some people seem to want it. I don't see what legal ground there would be for a state licensing board that grants MD's to MBBS's to turn down a DO.

The rules specifically states 'foreign degrees'.
 
Ya know I gotta say all the arguing that goes on by DOs saying they should get the MD title really is like them saying they aren't proud of their degree, that their degree is crap compared to an MD and they want the big prize now...Now I don't think DOs are universally worse/inferior or anything, but by a DO arguing that he wants a different degree, it's like HE'S saying that.

You went to a certain school that granted a certain degree. Be proud of it, get over it, and realize that it doesn't make you any less of a doctor.

And for those who say that the name change is for recognition by pharmacists or whoever...i'm sorry but if a pharmacist doesn't know what a DO is they probably shouldn't be allowed to prescribe drugs, they all know what a DO is (and don't give me the one BS example of a pharmacist you know/heard of who didn't...they all pretty much do). For patients who may not know what a DO is, if you introduce yourself as Dr. whoever, it's not like they're going to refuse your care. Patients are treated by DOs ALL THE TIME in hospitals w/o patients revolting and demanding to see the "real doctor", they'll know or assume your are a "real" one if you tell them you are (and you ARE a real doctor right? the DO degree does mean that, so stop asking for a change to MD, there's no real good reason for it. be proud and happy of what you are). It's not as though "confusion" is causing a DO to spend 10 extra minutes with a patient/ hospital employee/ pharmacists convincing them they are a doctor.

(and for those DOs who had to go to a DO school b/c they couldn't get into an MD one, which let's be honest is most of the group, all of what I said above is still true, still be proud of your degree... but you should additionally just be happy you got any medical degree considering the admissions standards, and not waste time reaching for BS excuses why you should get an MD title considering you didn't "earn" the right to get one by getting into an MD school. Instead, you earned a DO title, which I hope you believe for yourselves is just as good, even if easier to attain)
 
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There is NO NEED for the DO degree. WE DONT PRACTICE OSTEOPATHIC MEDICINE!. If we did, the argument to keep the degree makes sense. Since we dont, we learn MD medicine, 66% of us train MD post grad, ect. - it makes sense to argue for a merger.

The degree is strictly historical at this time. There is no need to remain separate, have 2 systems, and leave the physician market open to mid line providers who want to be called drs like us. Our stubbornness to assimilate based off the idea of essentially nothing, again since WE DO NOT PRACTICE osteopathy OR osteopathic medicine, is the silliest thing Ive seen.

Our schools offer DO degrees simply b/c they are accredited by COCA NOT b.c they train DOs or teach osteopathic medicine. Due to state laws people with DO degrees have unlimited practice rights, regardless of the fact they DONT PRACTICE OSTEOAPATHIC MEDICINE, and this is the only reason the profession has survived.

We could issue black magic degrees, it would be the same thing. We still are practicing MD medicine with a degree that mistrepresents our practice and training simply based in pride and the inability to recognize reality and the truth - we are MDs with DO degrees. Merge us.
 
There is NO NEED for the DO degree. WE DONT PRACTICE OSTEOPATHIC MEDICINE!.

If you didn't want a DO degree I guess you shouldn't have gone to a DO school. Probably a little too late now, being that you're already a "fellow" :laugh:.
 
But you do practice osteopathic medicine, or at least you learned osteopathic medicine. The school you went to will swear to it and the accrediting body of your school will swear to it. They'll talk about how you were specially trained to "see the whole patient", practice manipulation, etc. No way you can retroactively claim to be an MD... as far as your school is concerned (and as far as you're concerned for that matter since you chose to go to a school that told you they trained osteopaths), you are a DO, no way around it.

But also, let's not have the subtle assumption that a DO degree is lesser. I mean, don't DOs supposedly have OMM classes and learn more about the musculoskeletal system? You may say there's no need for a DO degree, but really, what if you think of it as signifying something more, something higher than an MD? Would that change your feeling on it?...b/c i have a feeling a lot of the desire and motivation to change name is a matter of wanting prestige/status/wow factor of an MD, and not simply a matter of redundancy.
 
But you do practice osteopathic medicine, or at least you learned osteopathic medicine. The school you went to will swear to it and the accrediting body of your school will swear to it. They'll talk about how you were specially trained to "see the whole patient", practice manipulation, etc. No way you can retroactively claim to be an MD... as far as your school is concerned (and as far as you're concerned for that matter since you chose to go to a school that told you they trained osteopaths), you are a DO, no way around it.

But also, let's not have the subtle assumption that a DO degree is lesser. I mean, don't DOs supposedly have OMM classes and learn more about the musculoskeletal system? You may say there's no need for a DO degree, but really, what if you think of it as signifying something more, something higher than an MD? Would that change your feeling on it?...b/c i have a feeling a lot of the desire and motivation to change name is a matter of wanting prestige/status/wow factor of an MD, and not simply a matter of redundancy.

I don't think you're wrong, but take a step back and imagine yourself in our position. All of that hard work and sacrifice and virtually no recognition for osteopathic physicians. A DO single-handedly saves the lives of many of America's bravest and the media calls him an MD. Why? If we're so equal why does that happen? Everything is MD this and MD that. I look for DOs in the news and in medical advances just so I can pump my fist and say "yes!" It shouldn't be that way. If there was more of that, surely there would be less of a groundswell over this issue. Osteopathic medicine was a good idea in the days of blood-letting. It doesn't really have a place in modern medicine. OMM has utility as an adjunct, but I doesn't cure heart disease, cancer or diabetes. In the end, it's all about the patients, and that is my focus. I will be proud of my DO, knowing full well that I have done all in my power to become an excellent physician, regardless of the initials. But I gotta agree with MichiganDO, even if he isn't who he says he is. Osteopathic medicine is defunct in it's organization and it's administration. For the benefit of out future patients, healthcare and all physicans alike, we need to unite. In the very least, in postgraduate medical education.
 
If you didn't want a DO degree I guess you shouldn't have gone to a DO school. Probably a little too late now, being that you're already a "fellow" :laugh:.

Dude, are you one of the osteopathic fan boys hangin' from Still's nutsack? A "resident" who is actually part of the AOA good ol boys network? MichiganDO has some pretty valid points. If you don't have anything to say other than the old "you shouldn't have gone DO" then STFU.
 
But you do practice osteopathic medicine, or at least you learned osteopathic medicine.

no..more like learned medicine from an osteopathic institution. BIG difference.

For the benefit of out future patients, healthcare and all physicans alike, we need to unite. In the very least, in postgraduate medical education.

right on! :thumbup:
 
no..more like learned medicine from an osteopathic institution. BIG difference.

No...more like you learned osteopathic medicine. I'm pretty sure they don't teach manipulation at MD schools. Plus, whatever other uniquely osteopathic things they teach you (like my original post said) make your education an osteopathic one, even if it happens to be similar to an allopathic one.
 
As a medical student (if your profile information is accurate), you are not qualified to make this statement.

Yes, Sir. You are right. I am not yet qualified to make that kind of statement. I was making that statement based on my experience of working with both MD's and DO's as a medical student. I will be more careful about how I phrase my statements in the future.

If you think that it does hamper your practice, Sir, I'd love to hear how it does, because it would be the first time I've witnessed it.
 
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I would just like to remind everyone that the reason most DOs complete an allopathic residency is that there are not enough osteopathic programs. I realize many people would prefer to do an allopathic residency, but many others choose that path because of location or the fact that there aren't enough DO residency programs in their field. New osteopathic schools are continuing to open and produce more DO physicians, but more residency spots are not being added to accommodate the students. Keep that in mind.

And, I am very proud to be an osteopathic medical student! I did not apply MD at all because I knew I wanted to be an osteopathic physician, although I may not use manipulative medicine extensively in my practice. It's not all about manipulation, it's a philosophy. I know many don't agree, but that has a lot to do with what part of the country you are from, what school you are at, and what experiences you have had.
 
No...more like you learned osteopathic medicine. I'm pretty sure they don't teach manipulation at MD schools. Plus, whatever other uniquely osteopathic things they teach you (like my original post said) make your education an osteopathic one, even if it happens to be similar to an allopathic one.

lol. ok, ill be sure to tell all of the doctors and nurses I practice with in the future that I practice osteopathic medicine, not modern medicine like they do.

Just because you learn some osteopathic principles doesn't mean you practice the doctrine. Also, I really don't see myself incorporating OMM into most of my treatments, and Ill be sure to look out for those 'uniquely osteopathic principles' in school.

We can agree to disagree though, no need to argue about this further.
 
Dude, are you one of the osteopathic fan boys hangin' from Still's nutsack? A "resident" who is actually part of the AOA good ol boys network? MichiganDO has some pretty valid points. If you don't have anything to say other than the old "you shouldn't have gone DO" then STFU.

No, he has yet to provide a valid point as to why this issue should take priority over the others facing osteopathic medicine, nor does anyone believe he is truly a fellow. It's common sense: if you don't want a DO degree, don't go to a DO school. I can repeat that another thousand times if people still don't understand it.

And I don't intend on ever using OMM. I just realize there are much more important things to whine and bitch about besides a couple of dumb letters.
 
I don't think you're wrong, but take a step back and imagine yourself in our position. All of that hard work and sacrifice and virtually no recognition for osteopathic physicians.

After all that hard work and sacrifice you are allowed to make life altering decisions that can improve or destroy a person's health, as well as make an average salary well above $100,000 per year. That's more than enough for me.
 
Why wasting all this energy about our degree. When I looked at the allo treads, it is hard read to about complaints. It is like we asked for banana then cry that we don't like banana. We rather have the other banana because it was grown on a different soil. The point is, once we are on the market, everybody will buy us. So be happy with your banana.
If one thinks it is worth it wasting so much energy here, he or she should take the next step, which is taking action; face our leader with the raw questions. Until then, I just don't know what to make of all this; maybe I just don't get it.
Go ahead; slam me if you want
 
Yes, Sir. You are right. I am not yet qualified to make that kind of statement. I was making that statement based on my experience of working with both MD's and DO's as a medical student. I will be more careful about how I phrase my statements in the future.

If you think that it does hamper your practice, Sir, I'd love to hear how it does, because it would be the first time I've witnessed it.

This is akin to the premed spouting authoritative comments based on conversations with med students about what residency is like.

Being further along the food chain, he may have some experiences that you haven't *vicariously* experienced through others. He's got a point, but you have to get all smartassy about it? Grow up.
 
This is akin to the premed spouting authoritative comments based on conversations with med students about what residency is like.

Being further along the food chain, he may have some experiences that you haven't *vicariously* experienced through others. He's got a point, but you have to get all smartassy about it? Grow up.

You know what? I wrote a whole bunch of stuff in response to your post and I just deleted it. It's too much. Basically, I will just apologize and hope that it is enough. I will remember this lesson for a while. *sigh*

For the record, though, no, I wasn't trying to be a smart ass, and, yes, I very much respect those above me. If you knew me at all, you'd know that I err in the direction of respect, even if it's not warranted. Nobody has ever questioned my sincerity in real life, by the way. This a first. I guess I have much to learn. :(
 
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Spiced:
Suffice it to say SDN, as fun-and occasionally informative-as it can be, like most internet chatboards suffers from placing a premium on sarcasm, confrontation, and no small share of hubris. It veers from real life in which respect, kindness, and earnest dialogue still have a premium upon them. Honorifics such as "Sir" and "Ma'am" may be more likely to be taken in the wrong vein by some in this environ. I'm sure TK let his frustration with the ongoing redundancy and pseudointellectualisms of these threads come out in his misguided response to you. I commend you for your tempered response and know that not all readers presumed such insolence on your part. The greater lesson is that SDN is not a true microcosm of the world. Also displaying respect for your now and future colleagues even here in this little world will never speak ill of you or come back to bite you.
 
Listen, if all this 'sir' this and 'sir' that crap was genuine, then I indeed misread it as a smartass maneuver. Outside of the military and and the South, throwing a lot of 'sirs' smacks of passive aggressiveness. I call it like I see it. But if you really meant it, then I'm sorry. And drop the 'sir' crap. Fruit.
 
Listen, if all this 'sir' this and 'sir' that crap was genuine, then I indeed misread it as a smartass maneuver. Outside of the military and and the South, throwing a lot of 'sirs' smacks of passive aggressiveness. I call it like I see it. But if you really meant it, then I'm sorry. And drop the 'sir' crap. Fruit.

Sheesh!!!! Spiced apologized even though I'd bet most of us knew he/she didn't mean anything by his/her post. Why do you have to be a d-bag about it?
 
Sheesh!!!! Spiced apologized even though I'd bet most of us knew he/she didn't mean anything by his/her post. Why do you have to be a d-bag about it?

Well, f*cknob, as I said before, I call it like I see it. And if I'm wrong, I apologize. Which I did. That okay enough for you, d*ckface?
 
Well, f*cknob, as I said before, I call it like I see it. And if I'm wrong, I apologize. Which I did. That okay enough for you, d*ckface?

Wow. Just. Wow. You're unbelievable. Your apology became null and void when you called him/her a fruit. And you're still a d-bag as proved by this post.
 
So Spiced PM's me and tells me he is indeed military. That, and J-Rad's involvment, also military, would explain all the 'sirs' flying around.

I apologize, Spiced. I thought you were being an ass, when you were just exhibiting military courtesty.
 
No worries, all. It was just a misunderstanding. I got used to the military style of "yes, sir," etc., especially when addressed the way I was in the post I was responding to, but it isn't the same when outside of military hospitals and such. It's a good thing to remember.
 
Oh STFU. You wanna start the namecalling, right back 'atcha.

START the name-calling? You're about 20 steps ahead of me. You have a horrible attitude and you can't even accept an apology graciously. Instead, you have to call the person a "fruit". I have a tough time believing you're a resident. You sound like a grade-schooler to me.
 
If you didn't want a DO degree I guess you shouldn't have gone to a DO school. Probably a little too late now, being that you're already a "fellow" :laugh:.

Right. This is the same pathetic argument you offer to anyone with the common sense to speak the truth about this unreal medicine we claim to practice. Secondly, if the 65% of DO students who the AAMC found cross apply to MD programs followed your logic and soley applied MD, DO schools would go unfilled every year.

The reality is people attend DO programs to become doctors because state laws allow them to practice as if they were an MD and get paid the same. Most could care less about the degree which doesn't represent what they learn anyway. This is beside the fact that 66% of DO students train MD post grad anyway, again adding to the argument for one system.

This subject it real. It is seen in every DO thread, and even in our schools such as TCOM who are considering MD programs. The marketability of the DO degree is not proven, it doesnt exsist, and we have been ok with this in past years due to demand for physicians and surplus med school applicant pools. Seeing as their are emerging midline providers and expanding MD programs, holding these non-sense degrees should raise some concern in those seeking them currently.

DO and MDs will not be the only proffessions claiming to be physicians in this century, and our degrees need to clarify our training from a market standpoint. Relying on the non-sense put forth above endangers all of us in future job markets. Holding a degree in Osteopathic Medicine (without an M for the MEDICINE we all practice) will be confusing in a sea of "dr" providers, not to mention that we dont practice this anyway (osteopathic anything), adding more confusion.

Those who offer the logic above refuse to even open this debate simply bc the truth hurts and while everyone is still getting paid whats the difference. I can buy that argument for the short term. Its still not the truth or reality. Maybe of more concern is that critics of degree change offer no consideration of changing and future job markets for DO grads, which makes me question their personal knowledge of the subject at hand.

WE DONT PRACTICE OSTEOPATHIC MEDICINE. We look more like Will Kirby DO Dermatologist of LA than AT Still DO, MD of MO today more than ever. We are wasting time, energy, and money to promote something that DOES NOT EXIST. Merge us.

Lastly, close this forum, its become a flame war of cheap shots.
 
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START the name-calling? You're about 20 steps ahead of me. You have a horrible attitude and you can't even accept an apology graciously. Instead, you have to call the person a "fruit". I have a tough time believing you're a resident. You sound like a grade-schooler to me.

I don't give a **** what you believe. The 'fruit' was in jest. Obviously you are either one of those overly-sensitive types to think that that was anything but a ribbing, but again whatever. Spiced never apologized to me, so there was no apology for me to accept. Read for comprehension, sweety.

As for the name-calling I recall you started with 'douchebag'. So I replied in kind. Who's the gradeschooler now? Douchebag.
 
I don't give a **** what you believe. The 'fruit' was in jest.

In jest? I seriously doubt anyone but you read that "in jest" given the tone of your post.

Obviously you are either one of those overly-sensitive types

LOLOLOLOLOLOL, the guy who went ape**** over the word "sir" is calling someone else hypersensitive. This is so good.

Spiced never apologized to me, so there was no apology for me to accept.

Oh really? This wasn't an apology?

You know what? I wrote a whole bunch of stuff in response to your post and I just deleted it. It's too much. Basically, I will just apologize and hope that it is enough. I will remember this lesson for a while. *sigh*

And as someone who read what Spiced had originally written, I'm glad he/she changed it. You didn't deserve the long explanation/apology included in the original.

Read for comprehension, sweety.

I'll say the same to you.

As for the name-calling I recall you started with 'douchebag'. So I replied in kind. Who's the gradeschooler now? Douchebag.

You began the entire exchange with "fruit" and when you were called on it (and I maintain it wasn't done in jest, or else you wouldn't have exploded in your next post to me defending it), you resorted to "****nob" and "dickhead". You have issues man.
 
After all that hard work and sacrifice you are allowed to make life altering decisions that can improve or destroy a person's health, as well as make an average salary well above $100,000 per year. That's more than enough for me.

I don't disagree with your sentiment at all. But don't you think that the whole of medicine, regardless of any degree change, would benefit from a unified position, especially in GME?

I guess that is not the point you are addressing in reference to my comment, but furthermore, wouldn't it be nice to have some modern DO role models and innovators to bring some honor to the profession? If osteopathic medicine is so different and great, how come there are so few of these modern figures? Why are we forced to be fed the musings of a 19th century innovator, namely the vaunted A.T. Still? I saw a report on the news about a recent study that links certain genes to the development and severity of certain brain tumors, published in JAMA. Is it so wrong to me to want to see things of this ilk published in the JAOA? Maybe you and I and the other future osteopathic physicians in America will have to be that for future generations of students, because right now this is something that osteopathic medicine lacks.
 
You began the entire exchange with "fruit" and when you were called on it (and I maintain it wasn't done in jest, or else you wouldn't have exploded in your next post to me defending it), you resorted to "****nob" and "dickhead". You have issues man.

Spiced and I have exhanged PMs and are done with it. Yet you took it upon yourself to call me out and call me a douchebag. That's fine, but that's a separate thing. You want to keep going, we can keep going.
 
Spiced and I have exhanged PMs and are done with it. Yet you took it upon yourself to call me out and call me a douchebag. That's fine, but that's a separate thing. You want to keep going, we can keep going.

You and Spiced exchanged emails AFTER I called you out initially. Since then, you've continued to insult me as well so I was no longer taking up for Spiced, but for myself.
 
You and Spiced exchanged emails AFTER I called you out initially. Since then, you've continued to insult me as well so I was no longer taking up for Spiced, but for myself.

Uh, how would you know when we exchanged emails? Hmmmm?

As I said if you want to continue this, let's go.
 
Uh, how would you know when we exchanged emails? Hmmmm?

For a person who's already completed med school, you have zero ability to put together clues.

At 11:09, you posted this to Spiced:

Listen, if all this 'sir' this and 'sir' that crap was genuine, then I indeed misread it as a smartass maneuver. Outside of the military and and the South, throwing a lot of 'sirs' smacks of passive aggressiveness. I call it like I see it. But if you really meant it, then I'm sorry. And drop the 'sir' crap. Fruit.

At 11:20, I posted this to you:

Sheesh!!!! Spiced apologized even though I'd bet most of us knew he/she didn't mean anything by his/her post. Why do you have to be a d-bag about it?

At 11:28, you posted this back to me (note: it sounds like you're defending what you said to Spiced and still haven't heard form him):

Well, f*cknob, as I said before, I call it like I see it. And if I'm wrong, I apologize. Which I did. That okay enough for you, d*ckface?

Finally, at 11:36, you posted this:

So Spiced PM's me and tells me he is indeed military. That, and J-Rad's involvment, also military, would explain all the 'sirs' flying around.

I apologize, Spiced. I thought you were being an ass, when you were just exhibiting military courtesty.

As I said if you want to continue this, let's go.

I'm so confused as to what we've been doing so far.
 
Now listen, one more comment from either of you and BOTH OF YOU will not get ice cream.
 
I'm so confused as to what we've been doing so far.

So, you have no idea when Spiced emailed me, huh?

Let me tell you what's going on. You responded to my post to Spiced. You *interjected* yourself between something between myself and Spiced. You decided to take offense at something I directed at Spiced and took it upon yourself to call me a douchebag. I responded in kind.

Spiced and I are done, yet you continue to perpetuate things. Clearly, Spiced has accepted my private and publically posted apology, yet apparently this is not good enough for *you*. It's not me, buddy, it's you. You are clearly more offended about this than Spiced it.

As I said, you want to continue this, I'm game. You can shut your piehole or we can go on until the thread gets closed or we both get dinged. I'm fine with it either way. But you won't stop. You'll keep posting. I guarantee it. Prove me wrong.

It's nice that you acknowledged that I've graduated from med school. I'm glad that your previous doubt has been addressed.
 
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