The Community You Want

[SDN]

We created SDN in 1999 as a nonprofit resource for students to share knowledge and help each other on the road to becoming doctors.

SDN has always encouraged independent expression of ideas and we purposely recommend anonymity to ensure all our members feel comfortable being open and honest. However, anonymity sometimes causes people to act in ways they would not behave otherwise.

Over the past few years there has been a general decrease in civility across social media, including SDN. Fortunately, of the 18 million+ posts on SDN, only a miniscule handful are downright rude or inappropriate. But even those few posts can create a perception which causes some students to avoid participating.

Based on feedback from fellow members, our volunteer moderators wish to change our moderation style and policies to ensure inappropriate behavior is quickly actioned and rude behavior is not tolerated in our community.

Here's my question to you: What standards should be in place for our community and how should our fellow volunteer moderators ensure we have a welcoming and helpful community?

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[kamakazi5]

Thank you for taking the time to even consider something like this. I'll take some time to write my thoughts later but this could really be a positive step for the site.

 

[Lawpy]

Good initiative. Hopefully this can lead something very useful like the Anonymity, Bedside Manners, and SDN Membership sticky

 

[Nommonnom]

We created SDN in 1999 as a nonprofit resource for students to share knowledge and help each other on the road to becoming doctors.

SDN has always encouraged independent expression of ideas and we purposely recommend anonymity to ensure all our members feel comfortable being open and honest. However, anonymity sometimes causes people to act in ways they would not behave otherwise.

Over the past few years there has been a general decrease in civility across social media, including SDN. Fortunately, of the 18 million+ posts on SDN, only a miniscule handful are downright rude or inappropriate. But even those few posts can create a perception which causes some students to avoid participating.

Based on feedback from fellow members, our volunteer moderators wish to change our moderation style and policies to ensure inappropriate behavior is quickly actioned and rude behavior is not tolerated in our community.

Here's my question to you: What standards should be in place for our community and how should our fellow volunteer moderators ensure we have a welcoming and helpful community?

When you ban/suspend someone you should replace the offending post with a copy/paste reason why so the transient population served has a way to assimilate the standards of behavior, whatever they may be. I'll frequently see a perfectly reasonable seeming person who has contributed many useful things banned/suspended for no apparent reason. Perhaps there is a good one but I have no way of understanding what happened.

 

[Lannister]

I know that this isn't really something you can fix, but what kind of annoys me about this place is the general attitude that anyone who doesn't have super high numbers or isn't at the top of their class is a failure. You don't need an amazing GPA/MCAT/super unique awesome experiences to get into medical school. And you don't need to be at the top of your class in med school to become a good, successful doctor. It's okay to be normal/average as long as you're happy.

 

[deleted480308]

I think it would be fine to hold a basic "professional tone" standard everywhere but the spf

I would prefer spf be left as is...

 

[NotASerialKiller]

But I've been on my best behaviour recently!

 

[fantasty]

Won't mind if the "social" forums and the professional forums were separate entities, as they serve different populations.

 

[Nommonnom]

I know that this isn't really something you can fix, but what kind of annoys me about this place is the general attitude that anyone who doesn't have super high numbers or isn't at the top of their class is a failure. You don't need an amazing GPA/MCAT/super unique awesome experiences to get into medical school. And you don't need to be at the top of your class in med school to become a good, successful doctor. It's okay to be normal/average as long as you're happy.

Perhaps splitting "community pre-allo" and "academic pre-allo" could do so in a non-offensive way?

 

[ddsadm]

Its unexplainable how the forum has helped not me but 100's of other dentist, find guidance with the collective mind of the members.

But strictly sticking to core ethos of the ideology I would like to remove repetitive post / threads which have been discussed and elicited, but due to lack of deligence of few members from referring to old post, are repeated again and again. These issues are not worth the discussion again and again due to some members leading to decreased visibility to pertinent issues which need attention.

Also it would be great to have a for sale section rather then members spamming the forums again and yet again with post of for sale.

We created SDN in 1999 as a nonprofit resource for students to share knowledge and help each other on the road to becoming doctors.

SDN has always encouraged independent expression of ideas and we purposely recommend anonymity to ensure all our members feel comfortable being open and honest. However, anonymity sometimes causes people to act in ways they would not behave otherwise.

Over the past few years there has been a general decrease in civility across social media, including SDN. Fortunately, of the 18 million+ posts on SDN, only a miniscule handful are downright rude or inappropriate. But even those few posts can create a perception which causes some students to avoid participating.

Based on feedback from fellow members, our volunteer moderators wish to change our moderation style and policies to ensure inappropriate behavior is quickly actioned and rude behavior is not tolerated in our community.

Here's my question to you: What standards should be in place for our community and how should our fellow volunteer moderators ensure we have a welcoming and helpful community?

 

[fantasty]

I think it would be fine to hold a basic "professional tone" standard everywhere but the spf

I would prefer spf be left as is...

"Social" forums. There's more to life than SPF

 

[SurfingDoctor]

There certainly is a lot of name calling and dismissive comments. Even if a forum is anonymous, this is suppose to be a forum of professionals and future professionals. While I personally don't care to much (it is the internet afterall), I do think it gives a poor impression of the members and by association, can give a poor reflection of this site. More importantly though, if people come to a profession-oriented forums and act unprofessionally, I can see this having negative conquests to their professional lives outside of internet. If one thinks it is okay to tell off other physicians and students online, I doubt that behavior vanishes in clinical settings (though maybe masked). This could be rectified with a simple warning, then second warning, then termination of account (just like it would be handled in person if it happened).

I also have to say, I think the "likes" system rewards poor behavior. If someone says something mean-spirited and gets 20 likes for it, are they more or less likely to repeat that behavior? This addition seems recent and I'm not sure why it was added, but I don't seen it having any benefit to the site.

 

[Apollyon]

Right now, the mod system is opaque, with a monolithic manner of presenting "from down on the mountain", with no dialogue, and no opportunity for appeal, or even explanation. Over my 14 years on SDN, there have been a few mods that were downright weird, and the mod staff had a "gang mentality", with that being, "If someone attacks a member of the gang, even if that member is wrong, you defend that member, without consideration". There has always been a feeling for me of an "us vs them" vibe, and I've always thought it was like a secret society how mods were even selected - like being tapped on the shoulder and someone whispers in your ear that "you have been chosen".

 

[Lawpy]

I think a top priority would be to clean up the Allopathic forums. That place is toxic and volatile with regular threads devolving into political debates that end up locked or moved to SPF. The discussion on midlevels and job security is especially toxic with personal attacks and outrage being inflicted despite repeated warnings. A ban on midlevel threads similar to those for MD vs DO and URM threads would be much appreciated.

EDIT: Additional thoughts are provided later in this thread.

 

[Wjldenver]

I've been attacked at various times on SDN when just trying to help some members. My approach is to just fight back in measured tones as warranted. SDN should add a feature where a recipient can flag a post directed at them as abusive and/or inappropriate. And after a threshold of abuse flags are tabulated, members should first be put on probation, and then later banned, if they don't get the message.

 

[Whyamionhere]

I see a lot of threads devolving into flame wars or the same tired arguments (often political, sometimes not) over and over again long after the original question has been answered and it would be nice to shut threads down when they get to such an unproductive point, especially if the original purpose of the thread has been served and it's now just users arguing with each other over a completely unrelated - or related but unnecessary topic.

 

[fantasty]

Perhaps splitting "community pre-allo" and "academic pre-allo" could do so in a non-offensive way?

I don't see how that would work, but I agree that the "high achiever" vibe is very intimidating for (everyone else). And, based on my discussions with med students on why they *didn't* use SDN, it was that perception of "academic bullying".

 

[Apollyon]

I also have to say, I think the "likes" system rewards poor behavior. If someone says something mean-spirited and gets 20 likes for it, are they more or less likely to repeat that behavior? This addition seems recent and I'm not sure why it was added, but I don't seen it having any benefit to the site.

Something like Slashdot, where posts can be upvoted or downvoted, might be an idea. However, I'm not sure about the delegated moderation of Slashdot.

 

[EEtoPre-Med]

I think that a big thing is long-time members, similar to physicians, get burnt out answering the same questions. However, I think that we need to be more aware that this question is new to the person who asks. Instead of angrily typying or saying "hey haven't you ever heard of the search function?" calmly linking to the appropriate thread is a better approach. Also, I think we need a well written response to professional anxiety, which is completely normal, but often gets repetitive. Instead of "grab a xanax" we should just copy a post that says something like " I understand that you are worried about your future. That is a good and healthy thing because it means you want to accomplish something with your life and that you have hopes and dreams. Remember, nothing worth doing is easy or short term... etc. etc." If the post is copied it wont cause each person to rewrite a similar message and get annoyed. None of these turned out to be moderator things...whoops.

 

[smalltownpsych]

I frequent the psychiatry and psychology forums and have seen disagreements, but they have generally taken a fairly civil tone. Periodically, people join who aren't really serious about the field and try to engage in arguments and they typically end up banned once they decompensate and start spouting profanities. From my perspective, I would not like it to be tightened up in the psych forums as we seem to have a healthy discourse that tolerates disagreement.

 

[aalamruad]

Here's an idea I've been thinking about lately: you could add a feature that allows mods to block specific members from posting in specific threads. That way, when someone is derailing a thread or being disrespectful about a heated topic, the derailing/disrespectful party will only be allowed to spectate the conversation without escalating the situation to a point where the mods have to either lock the thread or ban the user entirely. It would be a reasonable middle ground, and could be used as a more effective slap on the wrist than probation.

 

[freak7]

I see a lot of threads devolving into flame wars or the same tired arguments (often political, sometimes not) over and over again long after the original question has been answered and it would be nice to shut threads down when they get to such an unproductive point, especially if the original purpose of the thread has been served and it's now just users arguing with each other over a completely unrelated - or related but unnecessary topic.

+1
Once the question is sufficiently answered just close it.

 

[Lawpy]

I also have to say, I think the "likes" system rewards poor behavior. If someone says something mean-spirited and gets 20 likes for it, are they more or less likely to repeat that behavior? This addition seems recent and I'm not sure why it was added, but I don't seen it having any benefit to the site.

Likes are nice for bragging rights

 

[fantasty]

I see a lot of threads devolving into flame wars or the same tired arguments (often political, sometimes not) over and over again long after the original question has been answered and it would be nice to shut threads down when they get to such an unproductive point, especially if the original purpose of the thread has been served and it's now just users arguing with each other over a completely unrelated - or related but unnecessary topic.

Agreed. But, there are some conversations that could just go on forever with people coming and going. Topics that constantly come up (not going to specify) could have "sub-forums" with those themes, so at least all of the arguments could live in the same area.

I proposed this once when we were complaining that everything "off-topic" getting dumped in the lounge. I still think more diligence in students (by discipline) being directed to their "all-students" section rather than the lounge.

 

[Nommonnom]

I don't see how that would work, but I agree that the "high achiever" vibe is very intimidating for (everyone else). And, based on my discussions with med students on why they *didn't* use SDN, it was that perception of "academic bullying".

Well the crazy people target the academic powerhouses, so giving them their own little corner gives the other people room to breathe.

 

[redsox93]

Likes are nice for bragging rights

agreed don't take my likes away

 

[SurfingDoctor]

Likes are nice for bragging rights

Bragging? Just what a professional forum needs.

 

[Ismet]

Perhaps splitting "community pre-allo" and "academic pre-allo" could do so in a non-offensive way?

What is "community pre-allo"? Medical schools are all academic by definition. You're not deciding between a community and academic residency here, you're trying to get into medical school.

 

[fantasty]

[Caveat on all of my posts thus far] - The announcement that pulled me into this thread never specified that this was a "pre-allo" discussion. If you are really focusing just on that subgroup of the forums, my feedback is going to be less helpful.

 

[Whyamionhere]

Agreed. But, there are some conversations that could just go on forever with people coming and going. Topics that constantly come up (not going to specify) could have "sub-forums" with those themes, so at least all of the arguments could live in the same area.

I proposed this once when we were complaining that everything "off-topic" getting dumped in the lounge. I still think more diligence in students (by discipline) being directed to their "all-students" section rather than the lounge.

Yeah I guess I should have clarified that I only mean for clearly unproductive or unrelated discussions, not healthy civil discussion on the original thread topic - which can be very helpful!

 

[Nommonnom]

What is "community pre-allo"? Medical schools are all academic by definition. You're not deciding between a community and academic residency here, you're trying to get into medical school.

Community means the schools that emphasize service to the community rather than academic publications and correspondingly de-emphasize academic qualifications in their admissions.

State schools, Rush, etc come to mind for community. Top 20 would be the academic schools roughly. These serve two different populations of applicants, though of course they overlap.

People apply to both of course, but you get different discourse from people targeting top 20 than you do people targeting community oriented schools.

 

[Stroganoff]

Something like Slashdot, where posts can be upvoted or downvoted, might be an idea. However, I'm not sure about the delegated moderation of Slashdot.

I'm ambivalent of an up/down scoring system. Remember how certain folks abused Karma? The upvotes turned into a popularity contest, and the downvotes weren't always used judiciously but many times spitefully.

 

[Lawpy]

Bragging? Just what a professional forum needs.

that's only pro i can think of. That and removing those +1, this etc. posts that serve no purpose.

I definitely agree with the need to be professional. It's something that should be strictly enforced in the forums, and an effective way to curtail those toxic and inflammatory threads.

 

[Ismet]

Community means the schools that emphasize service to the community rather than academic publications and correspondingly de-emphasize academic qualifications in their admissions.

State schools, Rush, etc come to mind for community. Top 20 would be the academic schools roughly. These are two different populations of applicants, though of course they overlap.

Academic qualifications still reign in most cases, even for schools that highly value service to the community.

Separating pre-allo in this fashion would even further worsen the "academic superiority" issue that was brought up.

 

[Nommonnom]

Academic qualifications still reign in most cases, even for schools that highly value service to the community.

Separating pre-allo in this fashion would even further worsen the "academic superiority" issue that was brought up.

Well I've interviewed at both types and the conversation at the two were very different

I disagree about the academic superiority being worsened. People trying to be community docs often simply dont want to be academic docs and vice versa--they are comfortable in their own skin and I think they would like their own "safe spaces"

 

[Romz]

No up/down scoring system

 

[BehindBlueEyes]

As a student who began the pre-med --> medical school journey with not a clue what I was doing, I agree with the above posts that we need to continue to be sensitive to the struggles students are experiencing when they post on here for advice. Yes, sometimes the answer seems obvious, but this forum should serve to help those in need, no matter what questions are brought to the table.

Also, we need more emojis. I cannot adequately express my feelings without them and it's affecting my personal sanity.

 

[Lawpy]

I also support initiatives to increase activity in some deserted forums, like Topics in Healthcare, which could serve as a nice place for posting healthcare news.

 

[fantasty]

+1
Once the question is sufficiently answered just close it.

But, devil's advocate... Doesn't that lead to endless multiplication of threads? I understand that threads get derailed. But, there's always a lot of "me too" questions.... [hypothetically] - I search to see if a thread exists for what I want to ask. Lo and behold, there's 50 threads. But, a really good one that was effectively "answered" but I want to ask for a variation of the recommendation (or update, if the thread was "answered" several years ago, as things evolve).

If "good" threads are close, then everyone complains that "that issue has been answered". So, by post #3, it's "why didn't you use the search function?" :eyeroll:


Edit: (Well, future edit as they haven't said this yet)

I like this...
Might it be possible to let the OP close a thread once the question has been answered to their satisfaction?

This seems like a reasonable compromise to my concern.

 

[Lucca]

Personally, I think PreAllo is fine as it is but I can understand why new users would be turned off by the vibe, endless threads that discuss topics of minor general interest but intense interest to a few posters, etc. I dont think it is at all necessary for PreAllo to somehow be more siloed than it already is (I'm not even really sure why PreOsteo is a separate entity, although the PreOsteo community might want to keep it that way).

One concern about one suggestion in this thread: I think that closing threads once the question has been answered could potentially decrease the quality of SDN content, not increase it. Some questions don't have a single answer and many questions generate discussions that end up being of great value in spite of not being directly related to the question that is asked. Some of the great data mining adventures PreAllo posters have embarked on have been a result of tangential (albeit civil) discussions in random threads. I think beyond merely helping people trying to get into medical school, SDN houses a lot of valuable "meta" information about admissions, the medical profession, and even socio-political issues that is of value to lurkers and users alike and I contend that a lot of this information has been "spontaneously" generated by free discussion. Therefore, I think a distinction between "derailment" and "*re*railment" should be made, where rerailment describes a discussion that is secondary or unrelated to the OP but still, ultimately, of some value. This is also without even touching things like people hopping in on existing threads to ask something related to the OP or to piggyback off of an ongoing discussion to have their question answered.

 

[freak7]

That and removing those +1, this etc.

I think the value of the post is that it helps tell the OP that more people than just this rogue poster thinks that way...

Although the likes may be redundant on top of that.

 

[aalamruad]

Also, the standard treatment of SDN newbies should be much more patient, welcoming, and understanding of the fact that they haven't spent as many hundreds of hours as we have on here and aren't aware of the stuff we consider to be common knowledge.

 

[redsox93]

There could be a ~24 hour hold once you've created an account before you're allowed to post. This would probably derail most trolls from making accounts just to troll. If they had to wait 24 hours I highly doubt they'd still be committed to trolling. Might also give new members some time to search old threads before posting something that's been asked a lot.

But it would probably negatively impact people looking for immediate feedback on something... Just a thought

 

[Lollygag]

I also have to say, I think the "likes" system rewards poor behavior. If someone says something mean-spirited and gets 20 likes for it, are they more or less likely to repeat that behavior? This addition seems recent and I'm not sure why it was added, but I don't seen it having any benefit to the site.

I do agree with this, it can reward poor behavior. But correct me if I'm wrong, I believe the original purpose of developing a "likes system" was so that users could differentiate between those whose advice could be trusted and was sound, and those who are obnoxious or have little knowledge of the discussion that their taking part in. SDN definitely has a culture, when you've been on here long enough, you know who the knowledgeable users are, but if you're new to SDN, you'll have no idea.

Sure you can tell that those with a faculty or attending physician badge know their stuff, but I also know many users who have neither of those badges but yet they consistently give great advice and I trust their opinion. So if you're fairly new to SDN, you ask a question and you get some strong responses from some users, but you also get responses from some users that are idiots, then how do you differentiate that? Badges only help to a certain extent, not every thread will have a moderator, ADCOM member or attending physician reply.

So I see the problem you have with the likes system, but I think there are also problems without it.

 

[Apollyon]

I'm ambivalent of an up/down scoring system. Remember how certain folks abused Karma? The upvotes turned into a popularity contest, and the downvotes weren't always used judiciously but many times spitefully.

My ***-covering response is that I said "something like". In other words, it's just an idea, and you're completely right.

 

[Mad Jack]

SDN is already the best modded forum on the internet. I wouldn't change anything.

 

[freak7]

SDN is already the best modded forum on the internet. I wouldn't change anything.

/r/science begs to differ.

 

[deleted812153]

^ /r/askhistorians ftw

 

[neglect]

Please leave the SPF alone. Sometimes things get heated, but I'm afraid of any prohibitions limiting discussion. Otherwise this is a laudable goal. Posters should be treated with a default of respect and dignity.

 

[Homer J. Simpson]

I also have to say, I think the "likes" system rewards poor behavior. If someone says something mean-spirited and gets 20 likes for it, are they more or less likely to repeat that behavior? This addition seems recent and I'm not sure why it was added, but I don't seen it having any benefit to the site.

I can't speak to the other threads, but in SPF I like the "like" system. I cuts down on posts where people quote you just to say "+1" or "I agree with this", etc...

Also agree with others voicing that SPF, and their ilk, continue to moderated the way they have been the past few years.