The Economist prescribes "socialized medicine"

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  1. Medical Student
I couldn't believe it either, but read on:

America's headache
Jan 26th 2006
From The Economist print edition

How to start fixing the world's costliest health-care system

EVERYONE, it seems, has a health problem. After pouring billions into the National Health Service, Britons moan about dirty hospitals, long waits and wasted money. In Germany the new chancellor, Angela Merkel, is under fire for suggesting changing the financing of its health system. Canada's new Conservative prime minister, Stephen Harper, made a big fuss during the election about reducing the country's lengthy medical queues. Across the rich world, affluence, ageing and advancing technology are driving up health spending faster than income.

But nowhere has a bigger health problem than America. Soaring medical bills are squeezing wages, swelling the ranks of the uninsured and pushing huge firms and perhaps even the government towards bankruptcy. Ford's announcement this week that it would cut up to 30,000 jobs by 2012 was as much a sign of its “legacy” health-care costs as of the ills of the car industry. Pushed by polls that show health care is one of his main domestic problems and by forecasts showing that the retiring baby-boomers will crush the government's finances, George Bush is expected to unveil a reform plan in next week's state-of-the-union address.




America's health system is unlike any other. The United States spends 16% of its GDP on health, around twice the rich-country average, equivalent to $6,280 for every American each year. Yet it is the only rich country that does not guarantee universal health coverage. Thanks to an accident of history, most Americans receive health insurance through their employer, with the government picking up the bill for the poor (through Medicaid) and the elderly (Medicare).

This curious hybrid certainly has its strengths. Americans have more choice than anybody else, and their health-care system is much more innovative. Europeans' bills could be much higher if American medicine were not doing much of their R&D for them. But there are also huge weaknesses. The one most often cited—especially by foreigners—is the army of uninsured. Some 46m Americans do not have cover. In many cases that is out of choice and, if they fall seriously ill, hospitals have to treat them. But it is still deeply unequal. And there are also appalling inefficiencies: by some measures, 30% of American health spending is wasted.

Then there is the question of state support. Many Americans decry the “socialised medicine” of Canada and Europe. In fact, even if much of the administration is done privately, around 60% of America's health-care bill ends up being met by the government (thanks in part to huge tax subsidies that prop up the employer-based system). Proportionately, the American state already spends as much on health as the OECD average, and that share is set to grow as the baby-boomers run up their Medicare bills and ever more employers duck out of providing health-care coverage. America is, in effect, heading towards a version of socialised medicine by default.

Is there a better way? Even a glance around the world shows that there is no such thing as a perfect health-care system: every country treads an uneasy compromise between trying to harness market forces and using government cash to ensure some degree of equity. Health care is also the part of the public sector where market forces have had the most limited success: it is plagued by distorted incentives and information failures. To begin with, most health-care decisions are made by patients and doctors, but paid for by someone else. There is also the problem of selection: private-sector insurers may be tempted to weed out the chronically ill and the old, who account for most of the cost of health care.

In the longer term, America, like this adamantly pro-market newspaper, may have no choice other than to accept a more overtly European-style system. In such a scheme, the government would pay for a mandated insurance system, but leave the provision of care to a mix of public and private providers. Rather than copying Europe's distorting payroll taxes, the basic insurance package would be paid for directly by government, though that cash might be raised by a “hypothecated” tax which would make the cost of health care more evident. The amount of cash given to insurers would take account of individual health risks, thus reducing insurers' incentives to compete by taking only the healthiest patients.

Such a system would not be perfect but it could mitigate the worst inequities in America's health-care system, while retaining its strengths. In practice, however, it will not happen soon. American politicians are still scarred by the failure of Hillary Clinton's huge health-care plan (which tried in 1993 to force companies to insure workers). Incremental change, of the sort that Mr Bush is talking about, looks the only way forward.

In fact, there are plenty of incremental changes that could help, especially when it comes to curbing costs. America's health industry is already experimenting with new ways to improve efficiency (see article). As the biggest buyer, the federal government has plenty of power to push for “pay for performance”. And many of Mr Bush's mooted reforms make sense, such as limiting absurd medical litigation claims, deregulating the stifling state-based insurance market and making insurance policies more portable.

Plastic surgery may work for a while
But there is a flaw at the heart of his proposal. Mr Bush goes straight to one of the biggest distortions in American health care—the generous tax subsidies doled out to firms providing insurance. These help to promote a culture where costs do not matter. But his prescription is the wrong one. Rather than reducing this distortion, which would force firms and employees to be more cost-conscious and free up money to be spent on bringing more people into the system, the president wants to even things out by doling out yet more tax subsidies to others—for instance, letting individuals set more of their out-of-pocket medical expenses against taxes. Such hand-outs may have political appeal, but they will worsen the budget deficit and, most probably, drive up the pace of medical spending. America's health-care system could be improved in small steps. But those steps need to be in the right direction.

For those who live under a rock, The Economist is the most renowned and venerable standard-bearer for "get a job, you lazy quad," the-holy-market-heals-all libretarianism. But there's no escaping common sense in the long run . . . 😍
 
good read..thx alot..i wonder what Bush's reform plan will be...
 
govt size and intervention always grows over time until revolution
 

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rsfarrell


Not surprising. We will see "generalized" medicine come under a socialized umbrella and "elective medicine" under a pay-per-service one during our generation. Up to the Victory! 👍
 
Looks like I need to specialize in "elective medicine" then....oh wait, I was already thinking about doing that.... :meanie:
 
Praetorian said:
Looks like I need to specialize in "elective medicine" then....oh wait, I was already thinking about doing that.... :meanie:


Then you'll be "insulated" 🙂
 
rsfarrell said:
I couldn't believe it either, but read on:



For those who live under a rock, The Economist is the most renowned and venerable standard-bearer for "get a job, you lazy quad," the-holy-market-heals-all libretarianism. But there's no escaping common sense in the long run . . . 😍

I always thought The Economist was left wing. The fact they are supporting socialistic healthcare seems to confirm that notion.
 
Praetorian said:
God I hope socialized medicine doesn't happen any time soon....

You might be pleasently surprised. Imagine the end of uncompensated care, the increased satisfaction from working with a healthier population, being able to prescribe and treat without worrying about the patient's ability to pay . . . a good universal system could improve a lot of the intangibles that make doctoring less fun than it used to be.
 
Shredder said:
govt size and intervention always grows over time until revolution

The irony of this statement is that it reflects the sort of historical determinism that one associates with . . . Marxism.
 
Boston Native said:
I always thought The Economist was left wing. The fact they are supporting socialistic healthcare seems to confirm that notion.

Rather, it confirms the notion that even anti-government ideologues can't escape the logic of universal care.

The Economist is libertarian. That's right on money, left on sex. Pick one up, you might learn something.
 
rsfarrell said:
The irony of this statement is that it reflects the sort of historical determinism that one associates with . . . Marxism.

Those were exactly my thoughts 😕
 
rsfarrell said:
Rather, it confirms the notion that even anti-government ideologues can't escape the logic of universal care.

The Economist is libertarian. That's right on money, left on sex. Pick one up, you might learn something.


They are the only liberterians / conservatives supporting socialist healthcare it would seem. I have no problem with socialists participating in universal health care themselves.....just don't force the rest of us to pay taxes for it. I think taxes are high enough already. Most people have good insurance plans through their companies, and healthcare costs are not a huge problem for them. I don't see why any healthy young person would want to pay higher taxes for a goverment-run healthcare system. I'd rather save and invest that money for when I'm older and have more healthcare bills. Socialist medicine only benefits the poor.....it hurts everybody else....a policy that hurts the majority to help the few is bad policy.
 
Boston Native said:
They are the only liberterians / conservatives supporting socialist healthcare it would seem.

Which is why it is interesting enough to start a thread about. Sheesh.

And for the last time libertarians are neither conservative nor liberal. They have their own thing going on.
 
Boston Native said:
I think taxes are high enough already. Most people have good insurance plans through their companies, and healthcare costs are not a huge problem for them.

Read this again, and then go back and actually read the article. It mentioned that over half of medical spending comes from the government, with plenty of subsidies to those "good insurance plans." And how are healthcare costs not a huge problem for them? They are cutting jobs left and right because the pensions are killing them. In reality socialized medicine would be best for free market capitalism because it would keep them from bankrupting themselves trying to compete with foreign firms with lower costs.
 
Boston Native said:
They are the only liberterians / conservatives supporting socialist healthcare it would seem. I have no problem with socialists participating in universal health care themselves.....just don't force the rest of us to pay taxes for it. I think taxes are high enough already. Most people have good insurance plans through their companies, and healthcare costs are not a huge problem for them.
😱
I'm going to give you credit for being relatively new here.
Perhaps you live in a suburban paradise where this last statement is true.
But maybe you could think about a few things:

1) Who is paying for those "good insurance plans"?
a) the taxpayers--because the "companies" can deduct their costs for premiums. (And because they STILL end up paying for the uninsured.)
b) the workers--because they are paid less wages because their total compensation includes the costs of their benefits to the company.
c) the consumers--because the costs of those policies are paid for by higher prices on the products produced.
d) all of the above.

2) How stable are those jobs with those companies? Read a newspaper lately? You can start with articles about "GM retirees", "Northwest Airlines bankruptcy", "Ford plant closings". That should get you up to speed.

3) Are all jobs created equal? Does that waitress or cashier have a "good insurance plan"? What does she have to pay for it in addition to what the employer pays? What does it actually cover if she gets sick? What if the restaurant/store/shop goes out of business? Where does her insurance go then?

Boston Native said:
I don't see why any healthy young person would want to pay higher taxes for a goverment-run healthcare system. I'd rather save and invest that money for when I'm older and have more healthcare bills. Socialist medicine only benefits the poor.....it hurts everybody else....a policy that hurts the majority to help the few is bad policy.

Which is why the system we have now IS bad policy. The many--poor and elderly and ill--are pushed into public plans to help the few--insurance executives--to make profits by covering the lucky, healthy, and wealthy.
And in the menatime, the care I give is constrained by those insurance plans. I can't just prescribe a med or recommend a group therapy program without first asking "what is your insurance?" "What meds does it cover?" "Where can you be seen?" This applies to my private sector patients just as much as my public sector patients.

The bottom line is this: healthcare costs have to be paid for by somebody. Right now the cost is spread around--insurance premiums, taxpayer subsidies, direct federal and state funding. If you don't want to be "taxed" to pay for it, you will still pay through your insurance premiums, your taxes, or increased consumer costs and decreased wages.

As a practicing physician, I would LOVE to see a single payer system, paid for transparently through taxes and governed by a peer review process, such as the NIH uses for grant approval. The "for-profit bureaucracy" we live in now is NOT WORKING.
 
modelslashactor said:
Read this again, and then go back and actually read the article. It mentioned that over half of medical spending comes from the government, with plenty of subsidies to those "good insurance plans." And how are healthcare costs not a huge problem for them? They are cutting jobs left and right because the pensions are killing them. In reality socialized medicine would be best for free market capitalism because it would keep them from bankrupting themselves trying to compete with foreign firms with lower costs.

How did you manage to say what I meant using so many fewer words than I did???? 😳 🙂
 
Shredder said:
govt size and intervention always grows over time until revolution
Great point Shredder. Europe's entire society is pretty much destined to collapse under the weight of its mammoth government. I would say this will happen within the next 100 years or so. Either that, or Muslims will sieze leadership and institute religious affiliated government. America seems like it is headed in the same direction, unfortunately.

It's too bad people love government, but government doesn't love people....
 
OldPsychDoc said:
:
healthcare costs have to be paid for by somebody. Right now the cost is spread around--insurance premiums, taxpayer subsidies, direct federal and state funding.

This is America's poison. Healthcare costs need to be ELIMINATED by DENYING CARE. Not by being paid for through some elaborate social welfare plan.
 
chef_NU said:
This is America's poison. Healthcare costs need to be ELIMINATED by DENYING CARE. Not by being paid for through some elaborate social welfare plan.

SHAZAM!!!! Why didn't someone else think of that first? Let's do that! And we can start with pregnant mothers first. If they don't have insurance or can't pay in cash let's make them give birth at home attended by their grandmother's. AND the father's can go in the other room and boil some water!!!

But, let's not stop there--let's deny care to all of the babies that are unisured too. No immunizations, no check-ups, nothing. Then over the next 100 years or so we can weed out all of the uninsured, or at least those that aren't well!!!

You should lobby for a new cabinet psotion---healthcare czar. Then maybe you could work on getting these great changes in place. Think of the money we would save. Of course we would still have pork-barrel subsidies for alpaca farmers in Texas because god knows we still need mohair to line the gloves of the soldiers in Korea....err, uhhh...Iraq??? Well, we can cut spending somewhere else, it could get cold in Iraq after massive global climate change due to the greenhouse gases---or something...
 
rsfarrell said:
Which is why it is interesting enough to start a thread about. Sheesh.

And for the last time libertarians are neither conservative nor liberal. They have their own thing going on.

Liberterians claim to be for small government......so do conservatives.
 
medhacker said:
rsfarrell


Not surprising. We will see "generalized" medicine come under a socialized umbrella and "elective medicine" under a pay-per-service one during our generation. Up to the Victory! 👍

Not likely. I think you'll find that there are only a few truly "elective" medical fields out there. Cosmetic surgery and non-cancerous derm perhaps. All the other specialties tend to be things you cannot do without in any "generalized" system. For example, you won't be able to set up a system where the poor have to forego radiology, anesthesia, etc. You either end up with two disparate medicines (one for the rich and one for the poor), which will be politically untenable, or everyone ends up with the same crummy deal.
 
modelslashactor said:
Read this again, and then go back and actually read the article. It mentioned that over half of medical spending comes from the government, with plenty of subsidies to those "good insurance plans." And how are healthcare costs not a huge problem for them? They are cutting jobs left and right because the pensions are killing them. In reality socialized medicine would be best for free market capitalism because it would keep them from bankrupting themselves trying to compete with foreign firms with lower costs.

I don't think most companies are paying penisons anymore. There is only one or two companies laying off people due to their pension plans that I am aware of. That's money paid to former employees long after they have left the company. Most companies have health insurance plans for cheap rates, not to mention 401K plans, and healthcare flex plans where you can set aside a certain portion of your salary pre-taxed based on your estimated healthcare costs for the year. Healthcare costs are not a huge problem for most people working fulltime on salary for a company. As I said previously, I don't want to pay higher taxes on a yearly basis for healthcare, especially when I'm young and have little healthcare costs. I rather save and invest that money for when I get older and be able to pay my bills with the help of my health insurance plan through my company. I think this would save me much more money over the long run than paying taxes my entire adult life for healthcare.
 
OldPsychDoc said:
😱
I'm going to give you credit for being relatively new here.
Perhaps you live in a suburban paradise where this last statement is true.
But maybe you could think about a few things:

1) Who is paying for those "good insurance plans"?
a) the taxpayers--because the "companies" can deduct their costs for premiums. (And because they STILL end up paying for the uninsured.)
b) the workers--because they are paid less wages because their total compensation includes the costs of their benefits to the company.
c) the consumers--because the costs of those policies are paid for by higher prices on the products produced.
d) all of the above.

The taxpayers will pay a heck of a lot more for healthcare under a nationalized healthcare system. You can spin all you want, but that is undeniable.


OldPsychDoc said:
:
2) How stable are those jobs with those companies? Read a newspaper lately? You can start with articles about "GM retirees", "Northwest Airlines bankruptcy", "Ford plant closings". That should get you up to speed.

I think those companies all have one thing in common....unions. Could the unions be a reason why those companies are forced to lay off people? Many of the auto companies are paying pensions that most companies do not pay now. They have 401k plans instead.


OldPsychDoc said:
: 3) Are all jobs created equal? Does that waitress or cashier have a "good insurance plan"? What does she have to pay for it in addition to what the employer pays? What does it actually cover if she gets sick? What if the restaurant/store/shop goes out of business? Where does her insurance go then?

I am only speaking for myself, and most middle class citizens. Obviosly the poor among us would love tax funded healthcare, b/c they pay little or no taxes. Paul will always support a goverment that robs Peter to pay Paul. If a person's employer goes out of business, hopefully they would try to get another job, or even better, go to college so they can get a better job that pays better benefits. One reason insurance plans are so expensive is that state governments force insurance companies to cover a lot of frivilous things such as aromatherapy, which jacks up the premiums and makes purchasing insurance too expensive for those people who do not get healthcare benefits through their company.

OldPsychDoc said:
Which is why the system we have now IS bad policy. The many--poor and elderly and ill--are pushed into public plans to help the few--insurance executives--to make profits by covering the lucky, healthy, and wealthy.
And in the menatime, the care I give is constrained by those insurance plans. I can't just prescribe a med or recommend a group therapy program without first asking "what is your insurance?" "What meds does it cover?" "Where can you be seen?" This applies to my private sector patients just as much as my public sector patients.

You want to propose that the middle class paying higher taxes so that the poor can afford your expensive healthcare bills. I have a better plan. I think rich physicians like you should provide free healthcare to the poor. It's just greedy for you rich physicians to make a profit off the poor who need vital healthcare. Rich physicians can afford to provide healthcare to the poor for reduced or no cost to them. 🙂 I bet you don't like this plan too much. It's all about others making a sacrifice to help the poor.....not you.

OldPsychDoc said:
The bottom line is this: healthcare costs have to be paid for by somebody. Right now the cost is spread around--insurance premiums, taxpayer subsidies, direct federal and state funding. If you don't want to be "taxed" to pay for it, you will still pay through your insurance premiums, your taxes, or increased consumer costs and decreased wages.

As a practicing physician, I would LOVE to see a single payer system, paid for transparently through taxes and governed by a peer review process, such as the NIH uses for grant approval. The "for-profit bureaucracy" we live in now is NOT WORKING.

So you think that if the goverment runs the health care system, there will be no bureaucracy? That doesn't sound like the government to me. The government can't even run schools or the local department of motor vehicles effectively and succesfully.....I don't want them involved in healthcare. I have no problem with liberals and liberterians participating in a government run healthcare system. I just want the choice to opt out of such a system.
 
I'm not sure how everything works in the USA but up here in Canada most of our health care is covered by federal and provincial health care plans. Even though the new conservative government is talking about privitising parts of the health care system, most Canadians are firmly against this. All I know is that governement health care sure saved my a$@. About 3 years ago I was diagnosed with cancer and had to undergo 6 months of intense Chemo. I was just out of school and I hadn't found a job yet (which means no health insurance). I thank god the government payed the bill for what was some very expensive treatments. Today I'm fine and have our health care system to thank for it.
 
Boston Bob stikes back!
 
CaveatLector said:
SHAZAM!!!! Why didn't someone else think of that first? Let's do that! And we can start with pregnant mothers first. If they don't have insurance or can't pay in cash let's make them give birth at home attended by their grandmother's. AND the father's can go in the other room and boil some water!!!

But, let's not stop there--let's deny care to all of the babies that are unisured too. No immunizations, no check-ups, nothing. Then over the next 100 years or so we can weed out all of the uninsured, or at least those that aren't well!!!

You should lobby for a new cabinet psotion---healthcare czar. Then maybe you could work on getting these great changes in place. Think of the money we would save. Of course we would still have pork-barrel subsidies for alpaca farmers in Texas because god knows we still need mohair to line the gloves of the soldiers in Korea....err, uhhh...Iraq??? Well, we can cut spending somewhere else, it could get cold in Iraq after massive global climate change due to the greenhouse gases---or something...

Let have no healthcare cabinet. No healthcare czar. How about we just leave everyone alone and let them fend for themselves.

Small government:

You decide the best way to spend your money.

Large government:

Other people decide the best way to spend your money.
 
Maurizio, glad to hear things worked out for you, that definitely would have been trouble if you lived a few miles south.

As for investing to save up for future healthcare, I agree that this is a great idea provided you can afford it and have a job where the option is provided. However, just like any investment this is subject to market trends. Insurance companies were able to keep up with the exponential growth of healthcare costs in the 90s because the market was good and and they were able to make enough investing their earnings to keep up with the growing costs. After the stock market came back to earth, though, it got a lot tougher to keep up and that's when insurance premiums (most notably malpractice) started to be affected, and led us to the debate we are having now.
 
chef_NU said:
Let have no healthcare cabinet. No healthcare czar. How about we just leave everyone alone and let them fend for themselves.

Small government:

You decide the best way to spend your money.

Large government:

Other people decide the best way to spend your money.

Taking care of uninsured babies doesn't mean we need large government.

To be a conservative doesn't mean to push for small government across the board. Use some sense. Somehow I think you would be singing a different tune if we took away things like national defense or the interstate highway system or any of number of other things I could spout off about.
 
CaveatLector said:
Taking care of uninsured babies doesn't mean we need large government.

To be a conservative doesn't mean to push for small government across the board. Use some sense. Somehow I think you would be singing a different tune if we took away things like national defense or the interstate highway system or any of number of other things I could spout off about.


Being a conservative does mean you oppose nationalized healthcare supported by socialists.
 
Boston Native said:
The taxpayers will pay a heck of a lot more for healthcare under a nationalized healthcare system. You can spin all you want, but that is undeniable..



Under a nationalized system healthcare costs would be better fixed than they are under the present system. Therefore, even though you are "insuring" more people the price of care is driven down.

Boston Native said:
I think those companies all have one thing in common....unions. Could the unions be a reason why those companies are forced to lay off people? Many of the auto companies are paying pensions that most companies do not pay now. They have 401k plans instead. .

I agree. Unions are the bane of the moderately educated middle-class. At least as far as unskilled labor unions go. This is because these unions make it possible for Joe Schmuck who has nothing but a high school education, to make more $ than many people with a 4 year degree. Something is wrong with that picture. Unions had their place at one time but they haven't changed with the times. Now all they do is drive up inflation and make the once working class NOW a middle class. But that can't last forever and has been crumbling since the mid '70's.




Boston Native said:
I am only speaking for myself, and most middle class citizens. Obviosly the poor among us would love tax funded healthcare, b/c they pay little or no taxes. Paul will always support a goverment that robs Peter to pay Paul. If a person's employer goes out of business, hopefully they would try to get another job, or even better, go to college so they can get a better job that pays better benefits. One reason insurance plans are so expensive is that state governments force insurance companies to cover a lot of frivilous things such as aromatherapy, which jacks up the premiums and makes purchasing insurance too expensive for those people who do not get healthcare benefits through their company..

Yes, but there are many Peters out there too that don't mind shelling out to help fellow Americans.



Boston Native said:
You want to propose that the middle class paying higher taxes so that the poor can afford your expensive healthcare bills. I have a better plan. I think rich physicians like you should provide free healthcare to the poor. It's just greedy for you rich physicians to make a profit off the poor who need vital healthcare. Rich physicians can afford to provide healthcare to the poor for reduced or no cost to them. 🙂 I bet you don't like this plan too much. It's all about others making a sacrifice to help the poor.....not you. .

I agree, and they should. But the bottom line is the cost has to be spread out. There is no way the physicians alone can carry the burden. But, yes, there should be a requirement like that much like many state bar associations require an attorney to do x hours of pro bono work every year.



Boston Native said:
So you think that if the goverment runs the health care system, there will be no bureaucracy? That doesn't sound like the government to me. The government can't even run schools or the local department of motor vehicles effectively and succesfully.....I don't want them involved in healthcare. I have no problem with liberals and liberterians participating in a government run healthcare system. I just want the choice to opt out of such a system.

Would you also like the choice to opt-out of using interstate highways and national defense? Maybe that is feasible actually. Maybe we can all have ICBM silos in our backyards and use them as we see fit.
 
Boston Native said:
...
You want to propose that the middle class paying higher taxes so that the poor can afford your expensive healthcare bills. I have a better plan. I think rich physicians like you should provide free healthcare to the poor. It's just greedy for you rich physicians to make a profit off the poor who need vital healthcare. Rich physicians can afford to provide healthcare to the poor for reduced or no cost to them. 🙂 I bet you don't like this plan too much. It's all about others making a sacrifice to help the poor.....not you. ...

Ahh--silly me. I mistook this thread for a serious discussion by people who actually know something about the healthcare system. Golly gee---OPD got taken in by another troll. 😛
 
Boston Native said:
You want to propose that the middle class paying higher taxes so that the poor can afford your expensive healthcare bills. I have a better plan. I think rich physicians like you should provide free healthcare to the poor. It's just greedy for you rich physicians to make a profit off the poor who need vital healthcare. Rich physicians can afford to provide healthcare to the poor for reduced or no cost to them. 🙂 I bet you don't like this plan too much. It's all about others making a sacrifice to help the poor.....not you.

Actually, under most public health care plans the government strictly regulates how mush a physician can charge for any procedure. That's why doctors make alot less in countries like Canada than in the USA. So under a public health care plan, although doctors won't be treating poor people for free, they charge the same no matter who you are. So in a way, doctors sacrifice more than anyone else under such a plan. They get stuck with higher taxes and lower wages. So I'm not sure you can call any doctor who supports such a plan greedy.
 
chef_NU said:
Let have no healthcare cabinet. No healthcare czar. How about we just leave everyone alone and let them fend for themselves.

Small government:
You decide the best way to spend your money.

Large government:
Other people decide the best way to spend your money.
nice icon ha. how to account for the fact that many foolish ppl are better off having others spend their money for them? small govt has the premise that the populace must be responsible, and its not in the USA. drastic reduction in govt would result in true evolution and survival of the fittest, with ppl dying and starving and etc. so in medicine and govt overall do we just pay a premium to avoid facing laws of nature?
 
CaveatLector said:
Under a nationalized system healthcare costs would be better fixed than they are under the present system. Therefore, even though you are "insuring" more people the price of care is driven down.



I agree. Unions are the bane of the moderately educated middle-class. At least as far as unskilled labor unions go. This is because these unions make it possible for Joe Schmuck who has nothing but a high school education, to make more $ than many people with a 4 year degree. Something is wrong with that picture. Unions had their place at one time but they haven't changed with the times. Now all they do is drive up inflation and make the once working class NOW a middle class. But that can't last forever and has been crumbling since the mid '70's.






Yes, but there are many Peters out there too that don't mind shelling out to help fellow Americans.

I don't have a problem with you and other liberals paying more in taxes if you don't mind it. I think some states have set up Tax Me More accounts for good hearted liberals to contribute more money to if they wish. I don't view the goverment as a charity. I think charity should be voluntary, not mandated by the government and seized from people. Just because you don't mind paying high taxes doesn't mean everybody does, or shoudd have to.



CaveatLector said:
I agree, and they should. But the bottom line is the cost has to be spread out. There is no way the physicians alone can carry the burden. But, yes, there should be a requirement like that much like many state bar associations require an attorney to do x hours of pro bono work every year.

I didn't have health insurance last year, and I had arthroscopic surgery for my knee. The physician gave me a 3000 dollar discount because I didn't have health insurance. I have received other discounts on medical bills when I told them that I didn't have insurance. Based on my own personal experience, I do not believe the poor without health insurance are paying full cost for their healthcare expenses.



CaveatLector said:
Would you also like the choice to opt-out of using interstate highways and national defense? Maybe that is feasible actually. Maybe we can all have ICBM silos in our backyards and use them as we see fit.

I use the interstate highways, and national defense is the main purpose of the federal government as stated in the Constitutiion. I don't see anything in the Constitition about nationalized healthcare, and I think the higher taxes that would be required to fund it would violate my private property rights. Taxes are too high as it is, and most of that is not going to just interstates and the military....taxes are high due to wasteful spending on programs that most liberals support. I think a man is entitled to keep the majority of the money that he earns....socialists struggle with this notion. Your solution to every social problem is government based and raising taxes....this restricts your ability to think outside of the box and consider some free market approaches.
 
CaveatLector said:
Taking care of uninsured babies doesn't mean we need large government.

To be a conservative doesn't mean to push for small government across the board. Use some sense. Somehow I think you would be singing a different tune if we took away things like national defense or the interstate highway system or any of number of other things I could spout off about.
If you look at my previous posts, I have never advocated anarchy. I said small government. Of course government is necessary for certain functions. But it is the necessity that it is separated from certain functions. I.e. religion.

Unfortunately, the founders failed to foresee separation of government from other areas such as public schools (government should provide education vouchers and no more)... and now... healthcare.
 
CaveatLector said:
Yes, but there are many Peters out there too that don't mind shelling out to help fellow Americans.

You seem to be missing the fact that regardless of the government policy, your phantom "Peters" can still shell out to help people. In an ideal society, Peter isn't coerced into helping people, but he can do so as he sees fit.
 
Maurizio said:
Actually, under most public health care plans the government strictly regulates how mush a physician can charge for any procedure. That's why doctors make alot less in countries like Canada than in the USA. So under a public health care plan, although doctors won't be treating poor people for free, they charge the same no matter who you are. So in a way, doctors sacrifice more than anyone else under such a plan. They get stuck with higher taxes and lower wages. So I'm not sure you can call any doctor who supports such a plan greedy.

I can call a doctor greedy who is accusing other people of being greedy, as this guy was. I was just using his class warfare rhetoric against him as a parody. I have a problem with rich doctors suggesting the middle class pay more in taxes to pay for healthcare expenses of the poor. Maybe the goverment should put price caps on what physicians can charge for services....I think Hlllary Clinton's healthcare plan proposed doing that. Maybe physicians are price gouging their patients.
 
Shredder said:
drastic reduction in govt would result in true evolution and survival of the fittest, with ppl dying and starving and etc. so in medicine and govt overall do we just pay a premium to avoid facing laws of nature?

This is exactly my point. You either become responsible for yourself or you are up **** creek. If some people want to help the *******es, then they can. It's just that government can't force people to do it.

Whatever happened to consent of the governed??? 🙁
 
OldPsychDoc said:
Ahh--silly me. I mistook this thread for a serious discussion by people who actually know something about the healthcare system. Golly gee---OPD got taken in by another troll. 😛

I guess a troll is a conservative who opposes nationalized healthcare, by your definition. Why do you talk about yourself in the third person? You remind me of the guy who does that in an episode of Seinfield....Jimmy likes playing basketball.
 
chef_NU said:
This is exactly my point. You either become responsible for yourself or you are up **** creek. If some people want to help the *******es, then they can. It's just that government can't force people to do it.

Whatever happened to consent of the governed??? 🙁


So you are implying that the government is making the decisions and the populous has nothing to do with it? :laugh:
 
CaveatLector said:
So you are implying that the government is making the decisions and the populous has nothing to do with it? :laugh:
Almost. I'm saying that government rarely represents the true interests of the country as a whole, and always fails to provide services that are higher quality and more cost-effective than the private sector.

Here's a nice example:

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/Commentary/com-2_1_06_JS.html
 
Boston Native said:
Maybe the goverment should put price caps on what physicians can charge for services....I think Hlllary Clinton's healthcare plan proposed doing that. Maybe physicians are price gouging their patients.


Wrong. Doctors incomes make up 20% of all healthcare dollars, and make up ZERO percent of the increase in health care costs from 1960 to 2000.

Doctors make good money, but their income is NOT the reason why healthcare costs have skyrocketed the last 20 years
 
Boston Native said:
I don't have a problem with you and other liberals paying more in taxes if you don't mind it. I think some states have set up Tax Me More accounts for good hearted liberals to contribute more money to if they wish. I don't view the goverment as a charity. I think charity should be voluntary, not mandated by the government and seized from people. Just because you don't mind paying high taxes doesn't mean everybody does, or shoudd have to..

You have a very convenient memory and/or philosophy. Remember Reagan and his "star wars" program? I he had his way we would have mortgaged our great-great-grandchildren's future in the name of fighting off an enemy that didn't exist. Oh wait, maybe he was going to fund all of that out of his own pocket or maybe he had private "good hearted conservatives" lined up to foot the bill. :laugh:





Boston Native said:
I didn't have health insurance last year, and I had arthroscopic surgery for my knee. The physician gave me a 3000 dollar discount because I didn't have health insurance. I have received other discounts on medical bills when I told them that I didn't have insurance. Based on my own personal experience, I do not believe the poor without health insurance are paying full cost for their healthcare expenses. .

And your own personal experience is such a representative sample too. :laugh:

And I bet if GM would discount those damn Escalades by $3000 then the poor would be lining up to buy THEM too!!!

Maybe you don't know a lot about insurance. Doctors give insurance companies a break too!!! Does that make healthcare affordable? Well, as much as that $3000 discount on the Escalade makes big SUV's affordable....





Boston Native said:
I use the interstate highways, and national defense is the main purpose of the federal government as stated in the Constitutiion. I don't see anything in the Constitition about nationalized healthcare, and I think the higher taxes that would be required to fund it would violate my private property rights. Taxes are too high as it is, and most of that is not going to just interstates and the military....taxes are high due to wasteful spending on programs that most liberals support. I think a man is entitled to keep the majority of the money that he earns....socialists struggle with this notion. Your solution to every social problem is government based and raising taxes....this restricts your ability to think outside of the box and consider some free market approaches.
When is the last time you actually sat down and READ the constitution? TAXES are a HUGE part of it. The const. gives congress the authority to tax for basically anything they want. Got news for you buddy, that const. that you are relying on to try and bolster your opinion, it's exactly what ALLOWS congress to tax you. Your private property rights mean nothing. Read the text before you go off expounding. I find it very interesting how you try to use the const. as both a shield AND a sword. Basically you cite it when you think it helps you and disregard it when it doesn't. So in other words there is no point in you even arguing. :laugh:
 
chef_NU said:
Almost. I'm saying that government rarely represents the true interests of the country as a whole, and always fails to provide services that are higher quality and more cost-effective than the private sector.

In a capitalist society competition is what is supposed to foster higher quality services right? Bottom line is, in this democratic society, certain things the government does people don't care about or at least don't care enough to do something about them Eg: The alpaca farming subsidy I spoke of in an earlier post (or any other pork tacked onto any bill). If people care enough to eliminate pork then they would speak out and NOT send someone to washington that allows pork. Hence, if there is a problem with government run healthcare such as quality then the people either care enough to fix it or they don't. Just like capitalism....

So why do you assume that capitalism can fix problems that the democratic process doesn't when it comes to healthcare? They're based on the same principles.
 
At any rate I have no problem with a mixed fix. If we were to nationalize healthcare it would behoove us to treat it like any other gov. contract. Have many different private providers who must compete for contracts. Give the states an allocation of the money and have them award contracts. Simple. And the care remains private but it is paid for by sam.
 
MacGyver said:
Wrong. Doctors incomes make up 20% of all healthcare dollars, and make up ZERO percent of the increase in health care costs from 1960 to 2000.

Doctors make good money, but their income is NOT the reason why healthcare costs have skyrocketed the last 20 years


If doctors are going to support raising taxes on the middle class to pay the poor's medical expenses, I am going to propose that doctors be forced to provide healthcare to free for the poor. These socialistic doctors care so much about the poor that they propose that others make the sacrifice to help them. It's easy to be generous with other people's money.
 
CaveatLector said:
You have a very convenient memory and/or philosophy. Remember Reagan and his "star wars" program? I he had his way we would have mortgaged our great-great-grandchildren's future in the name of fighting off an enemy that didn't exist. Oh wait, maybe he was going to fund all of that out of his own pocket or maybe he had private "good hearted conservatives" lined up to foot the bill. :laugh:


I still can't believe liberals claim that the USSR was not a threat to America. Talk about having your head in the sand. I guess when you are a communist, you don't see Communist police states like the USSR as a threat. Why are you opposed to a missile defense system for america? I have no problem with funding the military and national defense programs as that is the main role of the federal government, as stated in the Constitition.

CaveatLector said:
And your own personal experience is such a representative sample too. :laugh:

And I bet if GM would discount those damn Escalades by $3000 then the poor would be lining up to buy THEM too!!!

Maybe you don't know a lot about insurance. Doctors give insurance companies a break too!!! Does that make healthcare affordable? Well, as much as that $3000 discount on the Escalade makes big SUV's affordable....

A 3000 dollar discount on my knee surgery bill did make it more affordable, as I paid 3000 dollars less than I would have. Your SUV analogy doesn't make any sense.


CaveatLector said:
When is the last time you actually sat down and READ the constitution? TAXES are a HUGE part of it. The const. gives congress the authority to tax for basically anything they want. Got news for you buddy, that const. that you are relying on to try and bolster your opinion, it's exactly what ALLOWS congress to tax you. Your private property rights mean nothing. Read the text before you go off expounding. I find it very interesting how you try to use the const. as both a shield AND a sword. Basically you cite it when you think it helps you and disregard it when it doesn't. So in other words there is no point in you even arguing. :laugh:

I never argued that the Congress could not levy taxes. That is in the Constitition. However, the Constitition does not give the Congress the right to overtax people. One of the main reasons Reagan and Bush won their elections was their promise to cut taxes. You seem to be quite joyous in your proclaimation that "your private property rights mean nothing". It's people like you the American people need to make sure don't get elected....you think the goverment has the right to take as much money as it wants from citizens. I don't think the founding fathers were socialists, and there was no income tax in America until the Civil War. Our founding fathers went to war with England over their high taxes on tea and other goods, so I don't think a tax nazi socialist like you can hide behind the constitition in regards to heavy taxation.
 
Imagine the end of making a good living as a physician. That's what I see coming if socialized medicine becomes a reality.
 
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