The end of student loan forgiveness?

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

KARM12

Super Member
15+ Year Member
Joined
Apr 4, 2006
Messages
2,684
Reaction score
443
Members don't see this ad :)
No big surprise, even Obama's budget proposals for pslf had a proposed cap on the forgivable amount. No doubt there will be some changes coming. Also no surprise that lawyers are leading this fight.
It was painful, but I'm so glad to have powered through and paid them off. I have a coworker relying on minimum payments, no tax bomb forgiveness of over a quarter million dollars in 2022. S/he is a churchgoer, so undoubtedly has a higher level of faith ;)


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app
 
The whole PSLF program was a joke based on the numbers. Most of us at my hospital didn't even bother with it because we knew it couldn't be trusted.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users

I remember some people were mocking me when I said PSLF can't be trusted.

I have said it then and I will say it again....the government may not get rid of the program but that doesn't mean they cannot change it. They can close the "doctor loophole".

How about making non profit hospitals no long eligible? Pharmacists working for Kaiser are already making $75 an hour. Kaiser needs this program to recruit pharmacists? Give me a break.

How about limiting this program to people making < 75 k a year?

I can go on and on. It is just a number game now. If the government wants to limit this program to people who should get it as intended by the law, then it will so.

Most Americans are not even college graduate. How can the government justify forgiving loans to a plastic surgeon who is going to earn $400 k a year after he is done with his residency? It just does not make sense.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app
 
  • Like
Reactions: 4 users
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
I remember some people were mocking me when I said PSLF can't be trusted.

I have said it then and I will say it again....the government may not get rid of the program but that doesn't mean they cannot change it. They can close the "doctor loophole".

How about making non profit hospitals no long eligible? Pharmacists working for Kaiser are already making $75 an hour. Kaiser needs this program to recruit pharmacists? Give me a break.

How about limiting this program to people making < 75 k a year?

I can go on and on. It is just a number game now. If the government wants to limit this program to people who should get it as intended by the law, then it will so.

Most Americans are not even college graduate. How can the government justify forgiving loans to a plastic surgeon who is going to earn $400 k a year after he is done with his residency? It just does not make sense.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app

How much would a plastic surgeon making 400k/year be forgiven? 10 years of payments would probably not leave much balance. Same with a pharmacist making $75/hour.
 
How much would a plastic surgeon making 400k/year be forgiven? 10 years of payments would probably not leave much balance. Same with a pharmacist making $75/hour.

7/10 years in residency which is already subsidized by the government.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
I thought residents deferred starting payments until after residency?

Not anymore. That's what it was when I had siblings doing it.

Now you have 10% of your income taken and its capped I believe. Although, that still doesn't cover the interest in many cases
 
Did anyone ever figure out what total loan balance is that once your loans reach that threshold it's better to do a forgiveness program?


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Did anyone ever figure out what total loan balance is that once your loans reach that threshold it's better to do a forgiveness program?


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app

When you can't pay the interest off or live on more than minimum wage. The government will tell you that it should only be 12.5% (used to be 10% Trump is changing) but they don't really feel like fixing everything because they are profiting off of you longterm and legislatures that are overwhelmingly in the baby boom generation don't know how bad it is compared to when they were securing careers.
 
Last edited:
Members don't see this ad :)
My payments are a 3rd of my take home pay, but I still feel like I have enough left over to save/buy what I want. But I also have a nice paid off car, no credit card debt and my apartment is only 600 a month.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
My payments are a 3rd of my take home pay, but I still feel like I have enough left over to save/buy what I want. But I also have a nice paid off car, no credit card debt and my apartment is only 600 a month.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app

Ya. The government will say that's too much and you should only be 10-12.5% but unless the interest rates were changed then there's no way that you should drop down. Just pay it off now and stay above other people's defaults.

Your status says student by the way rather than pharmacist......unless you guys are getting paid on your rotations
 
You have to dot your i's and cross your t's with this program. Not all federal student loans quality, only loans under the federal direct loan program. In addition, not all non-profits qualify. My best guess is that they won't change the program for students who already started making qualifying payments, but will probably change it for future graduating students.

I'll have 10 years of qualifying payments in 4 years, so we'll see what happens. Someone want to postmark this thread for revival in 4 years?
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
I knew someone was going to post this today.

Same ****, different day. The plaintiffs mentioned work for a 501(c)(not 3, I dunno what) and got a letter from FedLoan saying they qualified. DOE realized the mistake and said no, the law doesn't cover them.

The law ACTUALLY states 501(c)(3). That's clear as freaking day.

And that ******* liberal article someone posted is so off base that when it references the NYT article, it completely misinterprets it. It blames de Vos wanting to cancel the program in govt filings but anyone with half a brain knows an act of congress is required....DOE can't just contravene federal law.

So much dumb in these articles. PSLF is alive if you read the actual law and DOE communications.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app
 
  • Like
Reactions: 6 users
I knew someone was going to post this today.

Same ****, different day. The plaintiffs mentioned work for a 501(c)(not 3, I dunno what) and got a letter from FedLoan saying they qualified. DOE realized the mistake and said no, the law doesn't cover them.

The law ACTUALLY states 501(c)(3). That's clear as freaking day.

And that ******* liberal article someone posted is so off base that when it references the NYT article, it completely misinterprets it. It blames de Vos wanting to cancel the program in govt filings but anyone with half a brain knows an act of congress is required....DOE can't just contravene federal law.

So much dumb in these articles. PSLF is alive if you read the actual law and DOE communications.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app

Are you doing PSLF?
 
Are you doing PSLF?

Yep. I'm somewhere between 1/3 and 1/2 of the way there. I was actually on track to just naturally pay off the balance within 10 years, but did some major restructuring to my 2nd source of income to remove it from my personal tax return (long story).

So I'd be mad, but that's the risk I take for making financial decisions based on gov't tax/financial policy.

But more mad because then I'd owe @BMBiology a beer for this long standing PSLF bet we've had since a few years ago.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app
 
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users
Did anyone ever figure out what total loan balance is that once your loans reach that threshold it's better to do a forgiveness program?


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app
It depends on if you did residency/fellowship and if it was 1 or 2-3 years and what your AGI ends up as. I am about on the break even point after 2 years of residency and 65k of loans (assuming ill max 401k next year).
 
As confettiflyer said, 501(c)(3) entities such as hospitals are fine. These lawyers suing were doing public service under 501(c)(6) and others which are business lobbies and that is where they ran afoul of the Dept of Ed. This came up months ago BTW.

The crappy part is the Dept of Ed took so goddamn long to finally address something they knew was coming for years.
 
Good. I lived like a student and paid my loans off in 2 years while some of my classmates bought new cars, went on fancy vacations, eat out all the time, etc and expected their loans to be forgiven. Either make everyone pay what they borrowed or give us a refund.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Back in the mid-2000s when FFEL Stafford student loans were issued by private companies like Sallie Mae and Nelnet, they used to offer incentives to choose them. I used Sallie Mae because they offered a 3.33% principal reduction after making 30 on-time payments, and signing up for e-mail statements. So I did that but while I was in repayment my loans got transferred to Nelnet, and they inexplicably disqualified me from the 3.33% principal reduction. I had to spend 6 months fighting back and forth to finally get them to give it to me. This was on 2 loans totaling $7,285 meaning the 3.33% principal reduction was worth a measly $242.59. If you think the government is going to simply forgive hundreds of thousands of dollars of your loans without pulling some administrative BS on you, well I wish you good luck!
 
Not a fan of student loan forgiveness to be honest- I feel that you should only take out loans you can pay back from working.

Good. I lived like a student and paid my loans off in 2 years while some of my classmates bought new cars, went on fancy vacations, eat out all the time, etc and expected their loans to be forgiven. Either make everyone pay what they borrowed or give us a refund.

While I generally agree with both of you on the aspect of "if you borrow it, you should pay it back"; I don't like the wild inflation of upper education. Or the interest rates that don't really reflect the risk of the loan. So I'm okay with some loan forgiveness. I like that the PSLF encourages people to work in areas that are generally less desirable or lower paying and that it provides an incentive to work there. I don't like the idea of people getting a 100k art degree and working at an unrelated non-profit getting most of that forgiven. I think that is abusing the system.

If all remains unchanged, at the end of my 10 years I'll pay back the balance of my loan and around 0.5 - 1% net interest (based on internet calculators and wage assumptions).

The article in the OP looks like just 4 dudes who screwed up the paperwork. I don't think this is the end of times for PSLF.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
In my honest opinion the government shouldn't even offer loans. If loans were all private then tuition wouldn't be so ridiculous, because no bank is going to lend someone 50-100k for BA/BS degrees.

As far a loan forgiveness I never had any interest in the program. Even if I were to get all of my loans forgiven it still wouldn't save me any money vs paying it off ASAP. I'm sure someone from Cali with 400k in debt will disagree but I didn't force them to take on the debt; if you want my tax dollars to pay for it I'm sorry but all I really have to say is screw you.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 6 users
What about the kids that took out loans with spring break in the budget?? God that pisses me off some of them will get it forgiven

Omfg. THIS.

Every. Single. Healthfield. Students in every single one do this garbage
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Don't hate the player hate the game. I went for residency so I could get into a nonprofit hospital, taking care of 1 of the 10 years at low payments. In the end it will work out in my favor if my loans are forgiven.

With the money I will be saving from aggressively paying loans, I will max out my 401k/ Roth ira/ additional ira to secure my future. This will also lower my gross income so I have to make lower loan payments
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
Don't hate the player hate the game. I went for residency so I could get into a nonprofit hospital, taking care of 1 of the 10 years at low payments. In the end it will work out in my favor if my loans are forgiven.

With the money I will be saving from aggressively paying loans, I will max out my 401k/ Roth ira/ additional ira to secure my future. This will also lower my gross income so I have to make lower loan payments

Don't count your chicken before they hatch.

Ask yourself this: can the government legally close some "loopholes"? I am not talking about invalidating the entire program. I am talking about invalidating some current eligible sites or making these sites apply for the program like the H1 visa program. You are still in the program. You just need to work for a site that has a difficult time recruiting pharmacists like the Indian Health Service (IHS).

If the answer is yes, then you are going to have many sleepless nights.

Remember all of these sick people who quit their job so they can get Obamacare for dirt cheap? Guess what? Trump and GOP want to give tax credits instead of subsidies. That means you would need to get your butt back to work.

The real test is coming. You need to wait for the government to start forgiving 6 figure student loan debt to physicians, dentists, pharmacists. Wait for the fireworks in 2018, 2019.

Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app
 
Not a fan of student loan forgiveness to be honest- I feel that you should only take out loans you can pay back from working.

For example, I took out minimal loans, worked, scholarship and went to the cheapest six year school in my home state.

My friend went to a more expensive (4+4 program) school -that I wanted to go to- worked some, took out the max loans anyhow and finished with 200K in debt.

Based on calculations he will pay back ~120K of that.

Sure I came out ahead - debt paid off, few years along in my career, etc but my friend is getting 80K forgiven (plus all interest) - doesn't sit well with me- especially because I made my decisions on which school to attend based on the financial implications.

You also won't have money disappearing from your paycheck every month going to basically nothing, especially if you paid your student loans off quickly. Many idiots going into school now have zero concept of how much money they owe and what it means to their future income. These geniuses who go to private school in California have no concept of how fast 250,000 in loans adds up with 6.8% interest. I still have no idea why kids go into this field. I should've chose something else and got on with my life.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Don't count your chicken before they hatch.

Ask yourself this: can the government legall Iy close some "loopholes"? I am not talking about invalidating the entire program. I am talking about invalidating some current eligible sites or making these sites apply for the program like the H1 visa program. You are still in the program. You just need to work for a site that has a difficult time recruiting pharmacists like the Indian Health Service (IHS).

If the answer is yes, then you are going to have many sleepless nights.

Remember all of these sick people who quit their job so they can g

Definitely good points. If they invalidate the program in the coming years then I will just pay off my loans. While I would be better off with loan forgiveness, my loans aren't insurmountable
 
My goodness people get worked up over how other people spend money.

We don't care how people spend their money. Just don't ask others to pay for their debt. When our tax dollars go towards bailing them out, yes it is upsetting.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
We need an update to the "Welfare Queen" idea...how about the "PSLF Queen!"

Those darn hipsters and asians who spent summers in Paris, drive their Tesla cars, max out their backdoor Roth IRA's, and make the government pay for it!

We ought to drug test them and ALL LIVES MATTER!

Lololol


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
Definitely good points. If they invalidate the program in the coming years then I will just pay off my loans. While I would be better off with loan forgiveness, my loans aren't insurmountable

Who knows what will happen. I must admit...it would be unprecedented for the government to claw back some of the benefits at this scale. If it doesn't, then you would have hit the $100 k lottery.

People would continue to borrow to the max regardless if they need it or not because they will be paying the same amount. $150 k or $250 k...it would not matter.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app
 
We don't care how people spend their money. Just don't ask others to pay for their debt. When our tax dollars go towards bailing them out, yes it is upsetting.
You seem quite worked up over something that is completely theoretical. No one's loan have actually been forgiven yet. But even when they are, is it really worth getting upset over?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using SDN mobile
 
Some of us will have so much to pay back that we'll have no choice but to go on a gov't loan forgiveness program. Even if I stayed in pharmacy, PSLF probably wouldn't be an option for me or anyone else in my area since none of the public hospitals have hired a single pharmacist in about 3 years (they just keep bringing in more residents instead of hiring FT pharmacists), so that leaves IBR/REPAYE. If the gov't does away with those programs, what are people going to do who literally don't/can't make enough to afford the monthly minimum payments after taxes? In my case, I would default on the loans and file for bankruptcy. If enough people do that, then it would be cheaper for the gov't to just leave the forgiveness programs in place.

I knew a guy in AA school who had previously earned a degree at an expensive private school, then took about a year's worth of classes at another expensive private school. He currently has over $410k he'll be on the hook for. His plan so far is to work as an AA, but even on an AA's income (~$11k-$12k/month to start), there's no way he'll be able to make the minimum monthly payments on that kind of loan balance. What is someone in his situation supposed to do if there is no PSLF/REPAYE/IBR, other than default on the loans and file for bankruptcy?
 
Some of us will have so much to pay back that we'll have no choice but to go on a gov't loan forgiveness program. Even if I stayed in pharmacy, PSLF probably wouldn't be an option for me or anyone else in my area since none of the public hospitals have hired a single pharmacist in about 3 years (they just keep bringing in more residents instead of hiring FT pharmacists), so that leaves IBR/REPAYE. If the gov't does away with those programs, what are people going to do who literally don't/can't make enough to afford the monthly minimum payments after taxes? In my case, I would default on the loans and file for bankruptcy. If enough people do that, then it would be cheaper for the gov't to just leave the forgiveness programs in place.

I knew a guy in AA school who had previously earned a degree at an expensive private school, then took about a year's worth of classes at another expensive private school. He currently has over $410k he'll be on the hook for. His plan so far is to work as an AA, but even on an AA's income (~$11k-$12k/month to start), there's no way he'll be able to make the minimum monthly payments on that kind of loan balance. What is someone in his situation supposed to do if there is no PSLF/REPAYE/IBR, other than default on the loans and file for bankruptcy?
Isn't that why you should have run the numbers before going to school?

Really; I don't have much sympathy here because these were all scenarios I considered before deciding to pursue my education and they informed my decision making during the process (as in, I chose my school primarily because it was known to be great and I knew the loans would be affordable for me).

Why would somebody choose these expensive private universities when public universities and community colleges can serve the same purpose at a much lower cost?
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
I am a victim of insane predatory student loan lending. I was in Peace Corps debt free at age 27; only to start medical school and become THE MOST IN DEBT of anyone in the medical field EVER. NO joke. I consolidated my federal loans in 2005. Yesterday I learned that NAVIENT Solutions (formerly Sallie Mae) is in charge of my federal loans. They are being sued in class action for illegal monetary activity between 2010 and 2015.

CFPB Sues Nation's Largest Student Loan Company Navient for Failing Borrowers at Every Stage of Repayment | Consumer Financial Protection Bureau

Sallie mae is also controlling my private loans.
I am curious what to; get involved, but who to communicate with?

I am first generation MD, from a family of poverty. I served my country in Peace Corps living on 125/mth saving half of it because there was nowhere to spend it.
I am still trying to go forward but I have two parents who have never known normality. one is in a nursing home, one with CIPD; both hanging on by a thread. two siblings with cluster disorders preventing them maintaining work. I am burdened caring for people while trying to get through school.
I do not have the luxury of having a mate 'the minimum in a relationship is sharing finances' but who wants my debt?

I keep being told, 'stop worrying about $'. just study. but but it is hard to ignore this stuff and let people make a living off of my distress.

A company called freedom debt relief said they could reduce my private loan interest by 50%. wouldnt that be nice since it is already at 12-14%?

I was told it would be impossible to enter into income based repayment if I had consolidated my loans but this week a company did reach out to me to try to do just that.
problem; They sent a document by email with a POPUP overlay that prevented me from reading it vefore asking me to sign electronically. I thought that was unkosher and when I said so; service hung up on me.
 
An OBGYN friend I know also lived on Peace corps stipends for 3 years. He became an OBGYN in manhattan. He got a bonus check for 25k; he came home with 12.4k. after state and government taxes.
You also won't have money disappearing from your paycheck every month going to basically nothing, especially if you paid your student loans off quickly. Many idiots going into school now have zero concept of how much money they owe and what it means to their future income. These geniuses who go to private school in California have no concept of how fast 250,000 in loans adds up with 6.8% interest. I still have no idea why kids go into this field. I should've chose something else and got on with my life.
 
Isn't that why you should have run the numbers before going to school?

Really; I don't have much sympathy here because these were all scenarios I considered before deciding to pursue my education and they informed my decision making during the process (as in, I chose my school primarily because it was known to be great and I knew the loans would be affordable for me).

Why would somebody choose these expensive private universities when public universities and community colleges can serve the same purpose at a much lower cost?

Nobody I know is looking for sympathy. I'm just saying that either way, the taxpayers are going to have foot the bill because our options are going to come down to either PSLF/IBR/REPAYE or bankruptcy/defaulting. There won't be any other choice. What about the people who make the "responsible decision" to go to cheaper pharmacy schools and are still unable to pay back their loans because there simply won't be enough jobs in the job market for everyone? Even by the most conservative of estimates (which most of the members here agree with), this field will soon be looking at a 30% unemployment rate at minimum. Even if someone went to a cheaper public school, many of those in that 30% unemployed bracket won't be able to pay off their loans the legit way simply because they won't be able to find a pharmacist job paying what they'd need to make in order to afford the minimum monthly loan payments.

Even if they're willing to do what they have to do get a job and resort to something like teaching, they still won't be making enough money to pay off their loans. But then I guess it will still be their fault, because they should've done what they needed to do to avoid becoming part of the 30% (or whatever the percentage happens to be) of unemployed pharmacists.
 
Nobody I know is looking for sympathy. I'm just saying that either way, the taxpayers are going to have foot the bill because our options are going to come down to either PSLF/IBR/REPAYE or bankruptcy/defaulting. There won't be any other choice. What about the people who make the "responsible decision" to go to cheaper pharmacy schools and are still unable to pay back their loans because there simply won't be enough jobs in the job market for everyone? Even by the most conservative of estimates (which most of the members here agree with), this field will soon be looking at a 30% unemployment rate at minimum. Even if someone went to a cheaper public school, many of those in that 30% unemployed bracket won't be able to pay off their loans the legit way simply because they won't be able to find a pharmacist job paying what they'd need to make in order to afford the minimum monthly loan payments.

Even if they're willing to do what they have to do get a job and resort to something like teaching, they still won't be making enough money to pay off their loans. But then I guess it will still be their fault, because they should've done what they needed to do to avoid becoming part of the 30% (or whatever the percentage happens to be) of unemployed pharmacists.

Here are the possibilities:

Healthcare strikes if you can't discharge to bankruptcy or pay off the debt and the fed takes away the programs from those grandfathered in. Arguably the most messed up since it's their fault anyway.

Forced bankruptcy change and ties to schools with certain thresholds that must be kept below a certain default rate of their students or else they get funding revoked.

Subsequent government cuts to all forms of financial aid to low performing schools and Mark Cubans implementation of the proposed cap on fed loans leading to program implosions. Market corrections will only occur that way as it will decrease supply of,graduates.

It will occur at some point and will be drastic. Watch what happens when October 2017 hits and Pslf is supposed to go through for people for the first time in ten years. I wasn't even in hs....

The best solution? Cap loans to market rate values within a specified timeframe so schools bust or have to conform within a set period. Those students within the transition get grandfathered into the 20 to 25 yr repayment plan or refinance out into the private sector....oh, and stop hiking the grad rates up when they get taken out of the federal reserve at like 0.9% That is 100% the entire problem coupled with lack of subsidization and no cap.

Cynicism tells me that it won't be so smooth and a cut will occur at which point privates have to speculate on student risk. Those students won't get funding to complete the program and will be left out in the cold fighting lenders for years in litigation.

Edit:

When people say "taxpayers will be left on the hook," they are aware that the loans paid off in full are SIGNIFICANTLY more money than the taxpayer principal awarded in the loan correct? Unless I don't understand this, the interest rate hikes are speculation and artificial (usury actually since only 2.5k is tax deductible on interest) so it's less of screwing taxpayers and more of the fed screwing professionals into an unsustainable corner.

All that being said.....don't be stupid and go on spring break with loan money
 
Last edited:
The easiest way for the government to "fix" PSLF is just to make the forgiveness taxable income or make the amount forgiven taxable after a certain threshold.

I do think what we're going to see in the next higher ed re-authorization bill is the following:
1. PSLF capped at $57,500 for new borrowers
2. PSLF forgiveness above $57,500 added to taxable income

I do think, it's hard to just "eliminate" the program.

Here is the text in the MPN:

Public Service Loan Forgiveness

A Public Service Loan Forgiveness program is also available. Under this program, we will forgive the remaining balance due on your eligible Direct Loan Program loans after you have made 120 payments on those loans (after October 1, 2007) under certain repayment plans while you are employed full-time in certain public service jobs. The required 120 payments do not have to be consecutive


AND

Public Service Loan Forgiveness

A Public Service Loan Forgiveness (PSLF) program is also available. Under this program, we will forgive the remaining balance due on your eligible Direct Loan Program loans after you have made 120 payments on those loans (after October 1, 2007) under certain repayment plans while you are employed fulltime in certain public service jobs. The required 120 payments do not have to be consecutive. Qualifying repayment plans include the REPAYE Plan, the PAYE Plan, the IBR Plan, the ICR Plan, and the Standard Repayment Plan with a 10-year repayment period. Note: Although the Standard Repayment Plan with a 10-year repayment period is a qualifying repayment plan for PSLF, to receive any loan forgiveness under this program you must make the majority of the required 120 payments under the REPAYE Plan, the PAYE Plan, the IBR Plan, or the ICR Plan.


I would think borrowers currently in the program would have a case against the Department of Education if they just changed the contract that they already signed. IANAL of course.

Making the forgiveness taxable, however; is totally separate, and will allow the government to claw back 39.6% of the forgiveness since it the forgiveness will be added on top the debtors current salary.

The only other "trick" I could see them getting out of is eliminating 501c3 hospitals as a "qualifying" employer. That way you can't get to 120 payments.

I still think making the forgiveness taxable is going to be the easiest way.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
I've been saying this would happen for years, and yet no one listened. Don't take out money and expect anyone but yourself to have your back in the end. Relying on a government as fickle as ours to handle your financial affairs is quite foolish.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
It is insane when you think of a surgeon who maxes out their loans and takes extra for spring break and spends 7 out of their 10 pslf years as a resident, only has to pay 3 years at full pay and have hundreds of thousands of loans forgiven when they make 400k+ a year and all those billions of forgiven loan ends up raising everyone elses tax to pay for it, so yes it affects everyone else

Billions in forgiven loans?! LMAO you can't believe that will happen? Give me a break. Their aren't enough PSLF positions to make that possible. Hyperbole isn't necessary.

I just don't get the hate. You can feel good about yourself for being fiscally responsible and the PSLF person can feel good that they maximized their opportunity. Think of how much that surgeon is going to pay in taxes plus how much of their loans they are going to pay off in 10 years (is it really 7 years in residency though?). They aren't going to have "that" much forgiven I bet. Your example is probably like 1 in a thousand of all student loan borrowers. But yes by all means lets scrap the program because one surgeon might get a few spring breaks forgiven, that seems reasonable.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Billions in forgiven loans?! LMAO you can't believe that will happen? Give me a break. Their aren't enough PSLF positions to make that possible. Hyperbole isn't necessary.

I just don't get the hate. You can feel good about yourself for being fiscally responsible and the PSLF person can feel good that they maximized their opportunity. Think of how much that surgeon is going to pay in taxes plus how much of their loans they are going to pay off in 10 years (is it really 7 years in residency though?). They aren't going to have "that" much forgiven I bet. Your example is probably like 1 in a thousand of all student loan borrowers. But yes by all means lets scrap the program because one surgeon might get a few spring breaks forgiven, that seems reasonable.

What??? There are professionals from all walks of life (dentists, physical therapists, doctors, lawyers, etc) figuring out how to set up their business as a non-profit so they can game PSLF. Since they were only requiring 10% of discretionary income be paid towards the PSLF there is a cap on the maximum monthly payment in comparison to the student debt load. Dentists and doctors can rack up enormous amounts of debts-- 500k plus and have it all forgiven. Graduate PLUS loans are eligible for PSLF so there really isn't a cap on how many loans can be acquired. If I knew my loans would all be forgiven, I would max out every loan possible during school and take vacations, save for real-estate, etc.

I have a friend who is a physical therapist and there is active discussion on their business forum on how rig their business as non-profit to take advantage of this.
The whole system is ridiculous and needs to be changed over to a 20-year payment cycle. They also need to make residencies non-eligible. Doctors are going to pay 7 years during residency at 60k rate and then have 400k wiped out with only 3 decent years of payment. Also remember there is no tax payment penalty for PSLF.
 
What??? There are professionals from all walks of life (dentists, physical therapists, doctors, lawyers, etc) figuring out how to set up their business as a non-profit so they can game PSLF. Since they were only requiring 10% of discretionary income be paid towards the PSLF there is a cap on the maximum monthly payment in comparison to the student debt load. Dentists and doctors can rack up enormous amounts of debts-- 500k plus and have it all forgiven. Graduate PLUS loans are eligible for PSLF so there really isn't a cap on how many loans can be acquired. If I knew my loans would all be forgiven, I would max out every loan possible during school and take vacations, save for real-estate, etc.

I have a friend who is a physical therapist and there is active discussion on their business forum on how rig their business as non-profit to take advantage of this.
The whole system is ridiculous and needs to be changed over to a 20-year payment cycle. They also need to make residencies non-eligible. Doctors are going to pay 7 years during residency at 60k rate and then have 400k wiped out with only 3 decent years of payment. Also remember there is no tax payment penalty for PSLF.

Just a heads up before hitting my field hard. We're working for cms and insurance companies for free given that our AMA codes don't reflect the fact the we do differential Dx and use lab tests and imaging interpretation now. Its the same pay scales compared to fifty year olds who had 3/5ths of the curriculum.

We're pretty underpaid starting out. That being said, I haven't seen or heard of anyone trying to "game" pslf. If you do, then they'll probably get slammed for it.

Keep it mind that none of this garbage would be occurring if we weren't trapped in a broken system that lets university administrators siphon funds off of students like vampires irrespective of their outside markets while the Fed profits like absolute mad.

And for physicians, they wouldn't have 400k in debt if you know, the Fed subsidized their loans instead of allowing compound interest to accrue while they literally can't work or they'll off themselves from the stress

Edit: I'm paying off all of my loans myself and will not be using these programs FWIW
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
Just a heads up before hitting my field hard. We're working for cms and insurance companies for free given that our AMA codes don't reflect the fact the we do differential Dx and use lab tests and imaging interpretation now. Its the same pay scales compared to fifty year olds who had 3/5ths of the curriculum.

We're pretty underpaid starting out. That being said, I haven't seen or heard of anyone trying to "game" pslf. If you do, then they'll probably get slammed for it.

Keep it mind that none of this garbage would be occurring if we weren't trapped in a broken system that lets university administrators siphon funds off of students like vampires irrespective of their outside markets while the Fed profits like absolute mad.

And for physicians, they wouldn't have 400k in debt if you know, the Fed subsidized their loans instead of allowing compound interest to accrue while they literally can't work or they'll off themselves
Edit: I'm paying off all of my loans myself and will not be using these programs FWIW

IBR programs are clearly necessary, especially for lower income folks like teachers. However, a 10-year IBR program for doctors is kind of crazy--- especially if the doctors aren't even paying off the principle or the interest of their loans. Make a 20-25 year program. Higher education is due for some major overalls obviously.
And I agree about subsidizing interest rates on these loans.
I wiped out 125k of my 200k total loans so far-- I would almost be done paying off my loans if I hadn't been dealing with these 6.9% interest rates the whole time. But as a taxpayer I don't want to giving these PSLF programs out, especially when over half of student loans debtors admit to using some of their loans for spring break and vacation.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
We're pretty underpaid starting out. That being said, I haven't seen or heard of anyone trying to "game" pslf. If you do, then they'll probably get slammed for it.

Ever heard of this guy? He should update us!

Just shy of 400k debt here . Not making payments yet but it'll be avg of 1200/month this year (2015) and 900/month next year .

Wife does contracting consulting occasionally but mostly doesn't work.. we will be at around 170k gross this year with her working about 20 hours per month.

Not batting an eye. I'd say this is the good life.

Plan is to retire after a little while and go on $0 payment plan .

****You all know that if you get laid off or quit, you can go on $0/month IBR right? ****

Debt doesn't scare me because what the hell can they do ? Garnish 10% of my wages for a while? Whatever.. I'm living my dream job every day.. I love going into work and get a huge kick of of it... AND I'm saving at least $15,000 per year into the investment fund and savings on top of 401k .




Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
This could lead to healthcare strikes. Perhaps not with elimination of the program, but when default occurs and it can't be discharged? Strikes

Nope, industrial action (particularly wildcat strikes) by most healthcare workers without a union almost always result in a patient abandonment charge (and in the civil service, it is one of the few matters that guarantees termination due to Reagan and the Born on the Fourth of July law in the VA). Unionize before striking, and good luck convincing professionals to unionize.

I'll be curious on the nonprofit business structure (to the point where I think it may be worth setting up a couple of JD/LLM's in student loan tax avoidance). Bonafide non-profits are not easy to set up if you are doing more than a single person, and physicians and lawyers are in a special auditing class by IRS for past abuses of nonprofit tax administration. From having to convert a nonprofit to profit, the $ lost in the conversion more than offsets the student loan benefit if there's reasonable assets in the nonprofit corporation ($500k+ at the one-time tax).

My guess based on past federal government tax work is that you'll pay in the end anyway and get a marginal benefit, but not too good to be true. Same with how Bush screwed soldiers out of enlistment bonuses, you will get a benefit, but not as great as you thought.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Top