The HRSA predicts an oversupply of ~50,000 pharmacists by 2025; similar predictions for NPs/PAs

[PAtoPharm]

I know that the doom-and-gloom BLS stats have been discussed at length on here since they were originally published about a year ago, but I don't think anyone has referenced the HRSA job market prediction statistics. These appear to be similar in concept to the BLS projections, but they're more specific to various health professions. Their pharmacist job market predictions were most recently updated in 2014:

https://bhw.hrsa.gov/sites/default/files/bhw/nchwa/projections/pharmacists.pdf

As you can see, the government predicts that there will be an oversupply of approximately 50,000 pharmacists by 2025. This statistic seems to corroborate the BLS predictions. However, I was surprised to read the findings of the equivalent HRSA reports for NPs and PAs:

https://bhw.hrsa.gov/sites/default/...rimary-care-national-projections2013-2025.pdf

As you can see, the HRSA predicts that by 2025, there will be an oversupply of ~42,000 NPs, as well as an oversupply of ~20,000 PAs. Also, the HRSA projections don't seem to take into account the fact that NP (as well as PA) programs are popping up like mushrooms all over the country, so the NPs could very well have reached the status of graduating 48,000 - 50,000 too many NPs by 2025, just like pharmacy schools are projected to be. In fact, one of the local universities in my area just opened an NP program that will graduate its first class next year. They're taking 75+ students per year and aren't requiring any previous nursing experience. Right now, there are 5+ pages of FT/PT jobs for NPs/PAs in my area posted on Indeed.com... I wonder how much longer that will last for?

I think there is actually a silver lining here for pharmacy. As stated above, the HRSA published their pharmacy profession report in 2014. It's also been known for 4-5 years now that the pharmacy job market has been in a state of oversaturation, so in a sense, pharmacy has already hit "rock bottom," with some schools already experiencing difficulty filling their most recent classes. Could it be that there will be some sort of market correction for the pharmacy profession by 2025, whereas the NP/PA professions will just then be hitting the rock bottom that pharmacy is currently wallowing at?

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[Lnsean]

I think the main problem is overpopulation...lol

 

[CetiAlphaFive]

Jokes on you guys.

I'm going to volunteer to have my brain and license implanted into whatever robo-pharmacist system Weylandgreens-YutaniVS comes up with to replace all of you.

I'm takin' ALL the jobs!

 

[Amicable Angora]

Trust me we haven't hit rock bottom.

 

[297point1]

I think there is actually a silver lining here for pharmacy. As stated above, the HRSA published their pharmacy profession report in 2014. It's also been known for 4-5 years now that the pharmacy job market has been in a state of oversaturation, so in a sense, pharmacy has already hit "rock bottom," with some schools already experiencing difficulty filling their most recent classes. Could it be that there will be some sort of market correction for the pharmacy profession by 2025, whereas the NP/PA professions will just then be hitting the rock bottom that pharmacy is currently wallowing at?

I respectfully disagree.

Opened for business in fall 2016:
Larkin Health Sciences
High Point
Marshall Ketchum

Trying to open in fall 2017 or later:
SUNY-Binghamton
SUNY-Stony Brook
Medical College of Wisconsin
UTEP
William Carey
Samuel Merritt

You'll know rock bottom when pharmacy gets there.
Look at law. Pharmacy ain't there yet.

 

[gwarm01]

Not news to anyone who has been following the market trends, but nice to see it in a mainstream source like this. I'm afraid it's the doom of any hot, high paying career. If your job ever shows up in multiple "best, highest paying careers" list you should expect this outcome.

Best to plan your escape or try to land a secure position that isn't as easily replaced by a new grad. That's that I'm hoping to do in the next 5 years or so.

 

[Digsbe]

Unless pharmacists get provider status and a new slew of jobs open up I think the markets are going to tank for pharmacists. Even now many are having extremely hard times finding 40 hour per week jobs.

 

[gwarm01]

Unless pharmacists get provider status and a new slew of jobs open up I think the markets are going to tank for pharmacists. Even now many are having extremely hard times finding 40 hour per week jobs.

I think provider status would be less of a bump than you think if we see that kind of oversupply with the PA/NP group too. We would essentially be filling the same niche as them. Of course, hospitals might find value in hiring pharmacists that could both dispense and prescribe, but I wonder how that model would work?

Hmmm. Now I'm wondering what happens in States where pharmacists have some prescriptive authority. Can you prescribe birth control for someone, then verify and dispense your own prescription? Seems like you'd lose the safety check of a second pair of eyes and introduce potential conflict of interest.

 

[rxdawg21]

Unless pharmacists get provider status and a new slew of jobs open up I think the markets are going to tank for pharmacists. Even now many are having extremely hard times finding 40 hour per week jobs.

I'm not looking forward to the day that everything hits the fan.

 

[PAtoPharm]

I respectfully disagree.

Opened for business in fall 2016:
Larkin Health Sciences
High Point
Marshall Ketchum

Trying to open in fall 2017 or later:
SUNY-Binghamton
SUNY-Stony Brook
Medical College of Wisconsin
UTEP
William Carey
Samuel Merritt

You'll know rock bottom when pharmacy gets there.
Look at law. Pharmacy ain't there yet.

I didn't know that even more pharmacy schools were in the works. Dang... I was trying to have a more positive outlook for once, but I see that the worst is yet to come.

Not news to anyone who has been following the market trends, but nice to see it in a mainstream source like this. I'm afraid it's the doom of any hot, high paying career. If your job ever shows up in multiple "best, highest paying careers" list you should expect this outcome.

Best to plan your escape or try to land a secure position that isn't as easily replaced by a new grad. That's that I'm hoping to do in the next 5 years or so.

That's probably the best advice that could be given to practicing pharmacists, but what about those who are currently in pharmacy school and who won't be graduating until 2020?

Unless pharmacists get provider status and a new slew of jobs open up I think the markets are going to tank for pharmacists. Even now many are having extremely hard times finding 40 hour per week jobs.

My area is frequently ranked as one of the most undesirable medium-sized cities in the southeast to live in, but even here, there are only 2 pharmacist job openings (30 hr floater positions for CVS). I wonder where everyone is going to work when there are literally 50,000 more pharmacists than there are jobs?

 

[PAtoPharm]

I was just thinking about something. Yes, the PA/NP job markets will be saturated by 2025, but so far, their job markets are holding steady in most states. Someone in my situation could withdraw from pharmacy school, get accepted to start at a PA program next fall, and still graduate before 2020 (a solid 5 years before saturation is predicted to hit). So at the very least, I'd be able to "get mine" as a PA before the bottom drops out.

On the other hand, if I continue on with pharmacy school, I'll be graduating in 2020, when the job market will be even more saturated than it is now. Sure, it might not have reached the point of there being 50,000 more pharmacists than jobs in 2020, but there will probably be at least 20,000 too many pharmacists by then. There is no reason to think I'll be one of "special snowflakes" who isn't one of the 20,000 - 50,000 pharmacists (I.e., well over 1/3 of the future pharmacist workforce) who simply won't have a job. So if someone has been made aware of how bad things will be, isn't it almost irresponsible to stay in pharmacy school when they know how many pharmacists are going to be unemployed (I'm talking about anyone who happens to be in pharm school, not just myself)?

 

[CetiAlphaFive]

I was just thinking about something. Yes, the PA/NP job markets will be saturated by 2025, but so far, their job markets are holding steady in most states. Someone in my situation could withdraw from pharmacy school, get accepted to start at a PA program next fall, and still graduate before 2020 (a solid 5 years before saturation is predicted to hit). So at the very least, I'd be able to "get mine" as a PA before the bottom drops out.

On the other hand, if I continue on with pharmacy school, I'll be graduating in 2020, when the job market will be even more saturated than it is now. Sure, it might not have reached the point of there being 50,000 more pharmacists than jobs in 2020, but there will probably be at least 20,000 too many pharmacists by then. There is no reason to think I'll be one of "special snowflakes" who isn't one of the 20,000 - 50,000 pharmacists (I.e., well over 1/3 of the future pharmacist workforce) who simply won't have a job. So if someone has been made aware of how bad things will be, isn't it almost irresponsible to stay in pharmacy school when they know how many pharmacists are going to be unemployed (I'm talking about anyone who happens to be in pharm school, not just myself)?

Has no one ever told you to become a programmer?

As long as the economy isn't in the ****ter, it's pretty much a guaranteed paycheck

 

[PAtoPharm]

Has no one ever told you to become a programmer?

As long as the economy isn't in the ****ter, it's pretty much a guaranteed paycheck

Not really. When I was in high school, I was pushed to be an engineer, but I never pursued it because I am absolutely not a "math person." I have always struggled in every math class I have ever taken and can't imagine pursuing a degree that involves so much heavy math (I struggled in the Calc 1 class that was required for pharmacy and AA schools, and that was it for me). If I was better at math, I would consider pursuing a medical physics masters or doctoral degree at Georgia Tech ($150k-$200k median salaries, no patient contact, considered low-stress work).

I knew that the BLS predictions for pharmacy were pretty foreboding, but now that another reputable source (the HRSA) has conducted an even more detailed analysis of just how significant the pharmacist oversupply will be, I think someone has to ask themselves how, in "good conscience," they can justify attending or staying in pharmacy school. In other words, once a pharmacy student who isn't too far along in pharmacy school (e.g., a P1) is made aware of these numbers, isn't it foolish to NOT consider doing something else? Pharmacy students like to talk about "differentiating themselves," but in reality, what reason does any of them have to think that they won't be part of the 30-40% of the pharmacist workforce that will be unemployed within 7-8 years?

 

[quickpic007]

The key is just to live in an "unpopular" area. in that report 2012 there was supply=demand but yet still 30k sign ons given out like candy.

In my area wages are stable, when you see a sig wage drop for lots of "bread and butter" rphs I feel many will get out.

 

[awval999]

One thing that will keep pharmacy a float, is the fact that 70%+ of graduating classes are now women.

Pharmacy is going to become a lot like nursing, with many practitioners not working a full FTE. Lots of PRN employees a couple days/week.

 

[Mad Jack]

Unless pharmacists get provider status and a new slew of jobs open up I think the markets are going to tank for pharmacists. Even now many are having extremely hard times finding 40 hour per week jobs.

With a predicted massive oversupply of NPs/PAs, the provider market will already be flooded.

 

[rxdawg21]

With a predicted massive oversupply of NPs/PAs, the provider market will already be flooded.

Luckily I've always heard that the general practitioner md market will be under supplied, thus probably helping ease the oversupply burden of NP/PA

 

[PharmDBro2017]

Worrisome stuff.

 

[Mad Jack]

Luckily I've always heard that the general practitioner md market will be under supplied, thus probably helping ease the oversupply burden of NP/PA

Except there's only a projected shortage of 23,000 PCPs, and less than half of PAs/NPs work in primary care. That would still amount to a profound oversupply of providers.

 

[ChapmanPharmacy]

I know that the doom-and-gloom BLS stats have been discussed at length on here since they were originally published about a year ago, but I don't think anyone has referenced the HRSA job market prediction statistics. These appear to be similar in concept to the BLS projections, but they're more specific to various health professions. Their pharmacist job market predictions were most recently updated in 2014:

https://bhw.hrsa.gov/sites/default/files/bhw/nchwa/projections/pharmacists.pdf

As you can see, the government predicts that there will be an oversupply of approximately 50,000 pharmacists by 2025. This statistic seems to corroborate the BLS predictions. However, I was surprised to read the findings of the equivalent HRSA reports for NPs and PAs:

https://bhw.hrsa.gov/sites/default/...rimary-care-national-projections2013-2025.pdf

As you can see, the HRSA predicts that by 2025, there will be an oversupply of ~42,000 NPs, as well as an oversupply of ~20,000 PAs. Also, the HRSA projections don't seem to take into account the fact that NP (as well as PA) programs are popping up like mushrooms all over the country, so the NPs could very well have reached the status of graduating 48,000 - 50,000 too many NPs by 2025, just like pharmacy schools are projected to be. In fact, one of the local universities in my area just opened an NP program that will graduate its first class next year. They're taking 75+ students per year and aren't requiring any previous nursing experience. Right now, there are 5+ pages of FT/PT jobs for NPs/PAs in my area posted on Indeed.com... I wonder how much longer that will last for?

I think there is actually a silver lining here for pharmacy. As stated above, the HRSA published their pharmacy profession report in 2014. It's also been known for 4-5 years now that the pharmacy job market has been in a state of oversaturation, so in a sense, pharmacy has already hit "rock bottom," with some schools already experiencing difficulty filling their most recent classes. Could it be that there will be some sort of market correction for the pharmacy profession by 2025, whereas the NP/PA professions will just then be hitting the rock bottom that pharmacy is currently wallowing at?

Just a couple of things to note from the HRSA report. The first is to please understand that their projections are only based on the number of prescriptions filled: "Demand for pharmacists, which is determined by the number of prescriptions filled, is projected to grow by 16 percent. It is projected that supply will exceed demand in 2025, suggesting that the U.S. will have adequate numbers of pharmacists to meet future demand."

This means, as they note, that other areas of pharmacy practice were not looked at: "There are some factors that will affect future demand but could not be accounted for in this forecasting model. For example, changes in reimbursement could incentivize pharmacists to provide extended counseling and other clinical services to patients, requiring more pharmacists to meet patient demand. The eventual elimination of the coverage gap for prescription drugs in Medicare Part D will also have a direct impact on the use of pharmaceutical services as greater access to prescription drug coverage will likely improve medication compliance and increase the demand for pharmacy professionals.5 Additional demand may also be seen from the increasing integration of clinical pharmacists onto medical teams in settings such as patient-centered medical homes, and into other more advanced clinical roles."

The real wild card is that HRSA also didn't take into consideration is any changes in the Affordable Care Act. If the ACA is repealed and millions of people lose their health insurance, then this will have a more negative effect on the number of prescriptions filled, far sooner than 2025.

 

[APN-59 rph]

Just a couple of things to note from the HRSA report. The first is to please understand that their projections are only based on the number of prescriptions filled: "Demand for pharmacists, which is determined by the number of prescriptions filled, is projected to grow by 16 percent. It is projected that supply will exceed demand in 2025, suggesting that the U.S. will have adequate numbers of pharmacists to meet future demand."

This means, as they note, that other areas of pharmacy practice were not looked at: "There are some factors that will affect future demand but could not be accounted for in this forecasting model. For example, changes in reimbursement could incentivize pharmacists to provide extended counseling and other clinical services to patients, requiring more pharmacists to meet patient demand. The eventual elimination of the coverage gap for prescription drugs in Medicare Part D will also have a direct impact on the use of pharmaceutical services as greater access to prescription drug coverage will likely improve medication compliance and increase the demand for pharmacy professionals.5 Additional demand may also be seen from the increasing integration of clinical pharmacists onto medical teams in settings such as patient-centered medical homes, and into other more advanced clinical roles."

The real wild card is that HRSA also didn't take into consideration is any changes in the Affordable Care Act. If the ACA is repealed and millions of people lose their health insurance, then this will have a more negative effect on the number of prescriptions filled, far sooner than 2025.

Well kids, this is definitely one way to look at it.

 

[rxdawg21]

Well kids, this is definitely one way to look at it.

I can't stop laughing at chapman pharmacy. Reimbursements across all medical professions is down. Pharmacies reimbursements have been on a downward trajectory for a decade plus now. What in the world is going to change this. The only talk I hear out of Washington is healthcare is too expensive, surely they won't increase our reimbursements. If we do get the provider status holy grail that they seem to fight for, too bad, NP AND PA's are also projected at a huge surplus. Anyway you slice it pharmacy is in serious trouble.

BUT BUT what If they actually increase reimbursement...these people are so removed from reality they actually believe this crap. Probably get off at making new ways to delude future pharmacists.

 

[steveysmith54]

I can't stop laughing at chapman pharmacy. Reimbursements across all medical professions is down. Pharmacies reimbursements have been on a downward trajectory for a decade plus now. What in the world is going to change this. The only talk I hear out of Washington is healthcare is too expensive, surely they won't increase our reimbursements. If we do get the provider status holy grail that they seem to fight for, too bad, NP AND PA's are also projected at a huge surplus. Anyway you slice it pharmacy is in serious trouble.

BUT BUT what If they actually increase reimbursement...these people are so removed from reality they actually believe this crap. Probably get off at making new ways to delude future pharmacists.

I am confused by his last sentence. So, is he saying that we are screwed sooner than 2025? Bc The ACA is being repealed as we speak. House voted to repeal it last week.

 

[steveysmith54]

do you guys think that deans of new schools will blame pharmacists surplus on repealment of ACA?

 

[PAtoPharm]

Just a couple of things to note from the HRSA report. The first is to please understand that their projections are only based on the number of prescriptions filled: "Demand for pharmacists, which is determined by the number of prescriptions filled, is projected to grow by 16 percent. It is projected that supply will exceed demand in 2025, suggesting that the U.S. will have adequate numbers of pharmacists to meet future demand."

This means, as they note, that other areas of pharmacy practice were not looked at: "There are some factors that will affect future demand but could not be accounted for in this forecasting model. For example, changes in reimbursement could incentivize pharmacists to provide extended counseling and other clinical services to patients, requiring more pharmacists to meet patient demand. The eventual elimination of the coverage gap for prescription drugs in Medicare Part D will also have a direct impact on the use of pharmaceutical services as greater access to prescription drug coverage will likely improve medication compliance and increase the demand for pharmacy professionals.5 Additional demand may also be seen from the increasing integration of clinical pharmacists onto medical teams in settings such as patient-centered medical homes, and into other more advanced clinical roles."

The real wild card is that HRSA also didn't take into consideration is any changes in the Affordable Care Act. If the ACA is repealed and millions of people lose their health insurance, then this will have a more negative effect on the number of prescriptions filled, far sooner than 2025.

The only problem is that the potential factors that could result in future increased demand (and thereby a less severe pharmacist oversupply scenario) are just that -- potential "what if" factors. If these elements don't actually materialize and cause increased demand for pharmacists, then there will literally be 50,000+ pharmacists who will be out of work by 2025. Even if pharmacist demand does substantially improve and the oversupply ends up being only half that magnitude, there will still be ~25,000 pharmacists who can't find jobs, even in rural/undesirable areas.

 

[rxdawg21]

do you guys think that deans of new schools will blame pharmacists surplus on repealment of ACA?

Whatever helps them sleep at night

 

[PAtoPharm]

So are you dropping out yet?

Maybe. Considering my alternatives. I brought the HRSA report up to my family members and they agreed -- even though I need to find a career to settle on and stick with for once, it almost doesn't make sense to take my chances on a future ~40% unemployment rate. I've started to think about DO school again. I now realize that none of the "shortcut" careers (PA, NP, even pharmacy) are really safe, long-term bets these days, and that there's simply no way around putting in the time it takes to become a doctor. There are several new-ish DO programs that were established throughout the southeast over the last few years that I might have a decent shot of gaining acceptance to (e.g., VCOM, ACOM, LMUCOM), especially since my first semester pharmacy school grades were pretty good. If DO school isn't realistic at this point, Caribbean MD is another option, although I know the residency situation is getting more dire every year for Caribbean grads.

@PAtoPharm, you seem to really be struggling with making a career choice. I'm no expert on life, and still sometimes wonder if I made the right choice about going to pharmacy school (I graduated less than 5 years ago), but I have learned a few things so far that you might find helpful/reassuring:

If you want to be a pharmacist, finish pharmacy school and try your luck in the job market. If you really want to be a pharmacist you'll find a way, society as it functions today still needs pharmacists, so you'll find something. If there are literally no pharmacist jobs available anywhere in the country that you're willing to take, then you can fall back on some other field where a bit of scientific knowledge is desirable. A PharmD is still an advanced academic degree that not a lot of people have in the grand scheme of things, and is still worth something even if you aren't practicing pharmacy.

Other things to do with a PharmD besides practice pharmacy:

• Teaching/education jobs
• Pharmaceutical industry jobs
• Government regulatory jobs
• Scientific research jobs
• Project management jobs in health-related fields (government or private sector)
• Scientific writing/editing jobs
• Health administration jobs
• Health insurance industry jobs
• If you are young and healthy, you can always join the military for all shorts of non-pharmacist jobs - honestly, this is probably the most cost-effective way to figure out what the hell you want to do with your life if you have no idea. You acquire new skills, get to work with a variety of people from different backgrounds, and learn a lot about yourself and the world. Obviously some jobs in the military are riskier than others, but the majority of jobs in the military are actually non-combat jobs. The military does offer some pretty good benefits and pay + bonuses that end up being pretty competitive, depending on what you sign up for. Plus if you have a college degree you can start off in the military as an officer, which is way more pleasant than as an enlisted service member. I personally elected to serve in the military (purposefully being vague about branch of service) after high school due to a sense of duty / patriotism, i.e. not because I didn't feel ready for college or couldn't afford college. I ended up being really glad I didn't go straight into college after high school. It definitely taught me a lot about myself and made me appreciate the privilege of being able to attend college and make my own choices about my future - things I probably would have taken for granted if I hadn't experienced the military life.
• Start your own business
• Run for public office

Salaries for a lot of those jobs might not be as great as a full-time pharmacist salary is these days, but they are still great white-collar jobs where you can make a living wage, and if you get really good at any of these jobs, you can end up making a nice amount of money for yourself. Just find something you're good at and that you enjoy doing, something that you can at least find some meaning in, and stick with it. If it doesn't work out, learn from the process and move on to the next thing. Most importantly, be nice to people, make friends, focus on networking - that will get you much further than any single degree.

Oh, and last thing, when you refer to HRSA, it's just HRSA, not "the HRSA."

Thanks for correcting me on that; I always figured the "A" in HRSA stood for "Administration" or some other noun, so that's why I would preface my use of the acronym with "the." Also, you made some good suggestions, but I guess I'm just still clinging to my undergrad student pipedream of being "one of those six-figure income-earning health care professionals." Around the time I graduated from high school, I knew that I never wanted to become a teacher and go back to school, so teaching is out for me. I'm not really familiar with most of the other fields you listed, but I know that I'd like to avoid having to relocate to the other side of country, which I'd have to do if I wanted to work in scientific research or similar fields. That's the thing about pharmacy -- even if there still jobs available by the time I graduate in towns like Yuma, AZ and Odessa, TX, there is simply no way I'd ever be willing to move to middle-of-nowhere towns like those to get a job in ANY field. Of course, with there being a likely oversupply of 50,000+ pharmacists, then that means that after every single pharmacist position is filled (even those in the Yumas and Odessas of the country), there will STILL be 50k pharmacists who can't find jobs, so I probably won't even have to worry about that.

 

[PAtoPharm]

Whatever helps them sleep at night

Just curious... since you're from GA, when do you think the job markets throughout all the medium-sized cities in GA (e.g., Augusta, Savannah, Columbus, Macon, Albany) will be saturated? From what I've been told, north Atlanta is totally saturated, and the only part of Atlanta that new grads have any hope of finding a job in is south ATL.

 

[BidingMyTime]

PAtoPharm.....you are never going to find your perfect nirvana, and every single job has risks. There are no "sure" ways to an easy life. I know I tried to talk you out of pharmacy school, but now that you are there, the best choice you can make is to graduate pharmacy school. Not only does jumping from school to school, especially professional schools look bad, but the reality is you are frittering your life away, second guessing your decisions. There was a guy in my pharmacy school, an older student in his 30's, who was going back to school for the 3rd time, 3rd career choice, said it would be the last career change because his wife would leave him otherwise, he graduated & worked about 10 - 15 years then died of a heart attack. Maybe it was the right choice for him, or maybe his relatively short life would have been more enjoyable and peaceful if he had just stayed with his 1st career choice.

My advice, PAtoPharm, stick with the decision you made of pharmacy school, and quit second guessing yourself. Happiness is going to come from within you, not from an impossible quest to find the perfect job.

 

[gwarm01]

Not to mention he'd have to change his username.

edit:

This really does scare me. Thankfully I am married and my loans are paid off.

Really considering going back to school part time just so I could work in a different field if I wanted/needed to. Any suggestions?

It scares me too, especially since I'm only about halfway through paying off my loans.

Its hard to think of a career that would afford the same lifestyle without requiring 8 years of school or completely reinventing myself. I really hope I don't have to go back to college in my 40s. At that point I would probably just get into a trade.

 

[tennischamp822]

Maybe. Considering my alternatives. I brought the HRSA report up to my family members and they agreed -- even though I need to find a career to settle on and stick with for once, it almost doesn't make sense to take my chances on a future ~40% unemployment rate. I've started to think about DO school again. I now realize that none of the "shortcut" careers (PA, NP, even pharmacy) are really safe, long-term bets these days, and that there's simply no way around putting in the time it takes to become a doctor. There are several new-ish DO programs that were established throughout the southeast over the last few years that I might have a decent shot of gaining acceptance to (e.g., VCOM, ACOM, LMUCOM), especially since my first semester pharmacy school grades were pretty good. If DO school isn't realistic at this point, Caribbean MD is another option, although I know the residency situation is getting more dire every year for Caribbean grads.

Don't do Caribbean MD!!!! A 100% chance of becoming a pharmacist at your current school is better than a 50% chance of becoming a doctor from a Caribbean school. If you can make it through the 4 years, you have a pretty good chance of getting a residency, BUT there are tons of people who start at these Caribbean schools and get weeded out along the way. The better Carib schools are also really expensive (so your total debt will shoot up if you get weeded out)

I agree with the other posters that happiness should come from within. If you have already made up your mind to leave pharmacy school, then check out podiatry as an alternative career choice.

Some benefits to podiatry: reasonable admissions standards, 3 year paid residency (less chances of getting oversaturated due to this requirement) and a six figure income after residency (which means you can fulfill your goal). Shadow some podiatrists and see if it is for you.

 

[PAtoPharm]

PAtoPharm.....you are never going to find your perfect nirvana, and every single job has risks. There are no "sure" ways to an easy life. I know I tried to talk you out of pharmacy school, but now that you are there, the best choice you can make is to graduate pharmacy school. Not only does jumping from school to school, especially professional schools look bad, but the reality is you are frittering your life away, second guessing your decisions. There was a guy in my pharmacy school, an older student in his 30's, who was going back to school for the 3rd time, 3rd career choice, said it would be the last career change because his wife would leave him otherwise, he graduated & worked about 10 - 15 years then died of a heart attack. Maybe it was the right choice for him, or maybe his relatively short life would have been more enjoyable and peaceful if he had just stayed with his 1st career choice.

My advice, PAtoPharm, stick with the decision you made of pharmacy school, and quit second guessing yourself. Happiness is going to come from within you, not from an impossible quest to find the perfect job.

For me, it isn't just about finding the "perfect" career that makes me happy. It's also about objectively making a career choice that is actually a safe and sensible one to make. In other words, even if I loved pharmacy work, it doesn't make any difference how much I enjoy it if the job market is going to be disastrously oversaturated to the extent of 50,000-60,000+ more pharmacists than jobs. It's sort of analogous to pursuing some kind of highly-specialized art history masters degree that isn't at all marketable (and for which the already small "job market" for it is already extremely saturated). To an extent, my motivations for wanting to withdraw don't even have anything to do with pharmacy itself, because ANY career with this abysmal of a job market outlook has to be a bad choice to pursue. For example, if I was instead enrolled as a student in an IT masters program and the IT professionals job market was projected to suffer an oversupply of 50k+ IT workers in the next few years, I would want to leave the IT program for similar reasons.

I agree 100% that jumping from professional program to professional program looks bad, which is why I mentioned applying to either Caribbean MD programs or upstart DO programs in the US. The story about the older guy in your class sucks, but I'm not married and don't have any kids and now realize that's never going to change. When was a 19-23 y/o undergrad student, I wanted to get done with college and graduate school as quickly as possible so that I could be that person in their mid-to-late twenties earning a six figure income and getting a relatively early start on their career (hence why I originally had the goal to go to AA school). I also kind of knew that I didn't want to get married or have kids but figured that it would just "kind of happen," since everyone else used to always argue with me when I would tell them I didn't want any of that. But now that I'm pushing 30, I realize that the whole get-married-have-kids thing is NOT going to happen for me and that I also don't want it to, so at this point I have no problem with spending the next 7-10 more years of my life in school to do something worthwhile. It seems like a paradox, but as I get older and have nothing going for me in terms of career, I'm feeling less worried about rushing through a professional program as quickly as possible. If DO school followed by radiology or PM&R residency is really the way to go, then I don't mind spending the time to get there.

Ironically enough, aside from the lost time it would take for me (or anyone) to actually get into DO or Caribbean MD school and as I have mentioned before, it actually wouldn't take that much longer to become a non-surgeon physician than it would to become a PGY-2 specialized pharmacist (I.e., 4+3 for a primary care doc or 4+4 for a PM&R doc, versus 4+2 for a PGY-2 pharmacist). But objectively speaking, regardless of what the alternative career choice is (physician or something else), how can anyone advise someone to continue pursuing ANY career that has such an abysmal job market outlook, regardless of whether we're talking about pharmacy or any other career?

Edited to add: as you can see by reading gwarm01's post above, he (and other pharmacist members in various threads) are already pondering how they might cope with having to pursue a second career if they have no choice but to do so in 5-7 years, and he and the other members are established pharmacists. If actual practicing pharmacists are already considering making those plans, then how/why would anyone advise a student who's barely over a semester into pharmacy school to NOT do something else?

 

[goldenboy48]

Hmmm. Now I'm wondering what happens in States where pharmacists have some prescriptive authority. Can you prescribe birth control for someone, then verify and dispense your own prescription? Seems like you'd lose the safety check of a second pair of eyes and introduce potential conflict of interest.

In Canada, prescribing pharmacist can't be the dispensing pharmacist.

 

[PAtoPharm]

Don't do Caribbean MD!!!! A 100% chance of becoming a pharmacist at your current school is better than a 50% chance of becoming a doctor from a Caribbean school. If you can make it through the 4 years, you have a pretty good chance of getting a residency, BUT there are tons of people who start at these Caribbean schools and get weeded out along the way. The better Carib schools are also really expensive (so your total debt will shoot up if you get weeded out)

I agree with the other posters that happiness should come from within. If you have already made up your mind to leave pharmacy school, then check out podiatry as an alternative career choice.

Some benefits to podiatry: reasonable admissions standards, 3 year paid residency (less chances of getting oversaturated due to this requirement) and a six figure income after residency (which means you can fulfill your goal). Shadow some podiatrists and see if it is for you.

Thanks for the suggestion. Honestly, feet are usually pretty nasty, but it's worth considering. I heard that sometimes, podiatry residents will apply and be accepted to orthopedic surgery (I.e., MD/DO) foot & ankle fellowships and get accepted, so maybe that's an option, although I'm not sure if I would be a good fit for any surgical specialty. I totally agree with you that podiatry programs' admissions standards might be the most reasonable for someone in my situation.

 

[goldenboy48]

Really considering going back to school part time just so I could work in a different field if I wanted/needed to. Any suggestions?

Programmer

 

[gwarm01]

Thanks for the suggestion. Honestly, feet are usually pretty nasty, but it's worth considering. I heard that sometimes, podiatry residents will apply and be accepted to orthopedic surgery (I.e., MD/DO) foot & ankle fellowships and get accepted, so maybe that's an option, although I'm not sure if I would be a good fit for any surgical specialty. I totally agree with you that podiatry programs' admissions standards might be the most reasonable for someone in my situation.

If you go into podiatry or any other professional program just be prepared for a very difficult interview. They are going to see you as a very risky proposition. I wonder if you could just not disclose your PA school history, just show the pharmacy year and provide some compelling reasons for why you didn't want to stay on that path. I have no idea if your educational history would show up on a background check though, and you would need to keep that a secret. It may not be the ethical thing to do, but it could help.

Honestly, your best bet is probably to apply to another PA school. Be honest about your difficulty before but tell them how you have improved yourself since then and are committed to becoming a PA. You could say pharmacy was a fall back plan, but you realized that PA was your passion and wanted to try again. You made it 90% of the way through your AA program and know that it's the career path for you.

I hate to say it, but podiatry, MD, DO schools are going to be a very long shot. They aren't hurting for applicants and you are going to be a tough sell. They are going to see that you didn't complete the AA program and have serious reservations about your ability to finish theirs. That doesn't mean it can't happen and if you have the money to throw at applying then give it a shot.

You seem very focused on income. That's not bad, it's an important concern in life after all. But take a serious look at yourself and ask what do you really want to do. Any of these jobs will give you a comfortable life, but will it be a happy one?

 

[PAtoPharm]

If you go into podiatry or any other professional program just be prepared for a very difficult interview. They are going to see you as a very risky proposition. I wonder if you could just not disclose your PA school history, just show the pharmacy year and provide some compelling reasons for why you didn't want to stay on that path. I have no idea if your educational history would show up on a background check though, and you would need to keep that a secret. It may not be the ethical thing to do, but it could help.

Honestly, your best bet is probably to apply to another PA school. Be honest about your difficulty before but tell them how you have improved yourself since then and are committed to becoming a PA. You could say pharmacy was a fall back plan, but you realized that PA was your passion and wanted to try again. You made it 90% of the way through your AA program and know that it's the career path for you.

I hate to say it, but podiatry, MD, DO schools are going to be a very long shot. They aren't hurting for applicants and you are going to be a tough sell. They are going to see that you didn't complete the AA program and have serious reservations about your ability to finish theirs. That doesn't mean it can't happen and if you have the money to throw at applying then give it a shot.

You seem very focused on income. That's not bad, it's an important concern in life after all. But take a serious look at yourself and ask what do you really want to do. Any of these jobs will give you a comfortable life, but will it be a happy one?

Good points; I agree that MD/DO/podiatry will be tougher to get accepted to (although I think I'd have the highest chances of getting accepted to podiatry schools). That's why I mentioned going to a Caribbean MD school; I know their admissions standards have gotten more stringent in recent years, but they're still for-profit schools and my GPA is still higher than the average they accept. One thing that works in my favor (if I do decide to apply to DO programs) is that more and more DO schools are doing closed-file interviews, which means I wouldn't have to worry about being grilled on my academic history. That means that the main hurdle for me is going to be getting that elusive interview offer.

I'm pretty sure that I have a 0% chance of getting accepted to any US MD schools, so either Caribbean medical school or a less established DO school are going to be my best bets. I could be wrong, but I believe that some of the newer DO schools (such as ACOM in AL) accepted an average GPA of 3.4-3.45.

What I have considered doing is calling the registrar's office at the AA program I was enrolled at and telling them I want to re-register to take more classes as a general studies student. Right now, my official transcript says that I'm listed as an AA student, so if I can register with the general studies, health science, medical science, or some other "generic" department, I can at least have my transcript not show that I was enrolled in the AA program.

Just to make a slight correction, I didn't make it 90% of the way through an AA program. They kicked me out at the end of the second semester when I didn't pass the lab simulation final, so I wasn't as far along as some people think.

... But in general, do you agree that if it is even remotely possible that a current pharmacy student could get accepted to an MD/DO or even podiatry program, they at least owe it to themselves to investigate their chances of getting accepted to one of these programs? (in light of the current and future job market in pharmacy)

 

[beautifulrobot]

... But in general, do you agree that if it is even remotely possible that a current pharmacy student could get accepted to an MD/DO or even podiatry program, they at least owe it to themselves to investigate their chances of getting accepted to one of these programs? (in light of the current and future job market in pharmacy)

Nope, not unless they were serious about wanting to become a physician and I had the confidence that they would be a good physician (read: where determined, thoughtful, and had a certain level of mental resilience - not saying that isn't you, I don't know you that well, but that's what I would think about before encouraging anyone to apply to med school). Med school isn't a cake walk, in fact, I have heard from a couple of PharmD/MDs that med school was much more challenging than pharmacy school. There's a few of them on this board that could give you more insight. I don't really know much about podiatry, but hey, if that's something you think you'd be good at and you think there are better job opportunities in that field, go for it.

 

[beautifulrobot]

You mentioned you aren't quite 30 years old yet and don't have a family. Have you considered joining the military? If you have a bachelor's degree you could commission as an officer in a variety of different jobs, get some experience, explore the world a bit, develop some leadership skills, give yourself some time to figure yourself out, and after 3 years of service you would qualify for the post-9/11 GI Bill (you qualify for it after just 90 days of active duty service, but to get 100% of the benefit you have to have 3 years of active duty service), which would essentially cover the cost of up to three years of college or most vocational training programs. Honestly, that's what I would recommend.

 

[gwarm01]

Good points; I agree that MD/DO/podiatry will be tougher to get accepted to (although I think I'd have the highest chances of getting accepted to podiatry schools). That's why I mentioned going to a Caribbean MD school; I know their admissions standards have gotten more stringent in recent years, but they're still for-profit schools and my GPA is still higher than the average they accept. One thing that works in my favor (if I do decide to apply to DO programs) is that more and more DO schools are doing closed-file interviews, which means I wouldn't have to worry about being grilled on my academic history. That means that the main hurdle for me is going to be getting that elusive interview offer.

I'm pretty sure that I have a 0% chance of getting accepted to any US MD schools, so either Caribbean medical school or a less established DO school are going to be my best bets. I could be wrong, but I believe that some of the newer DO schools (such as ACOM in AL) accepted an average GPA of 3.4-3.45.

What I have considered doing is calling the registrar's office at the AA program I was enrolled at and telling them I want to re-register to take more classes as a general studies student. Right now, my official transcript says that I'm listed as an AA student, so if I can register with the general studies, health science, medical science, or some other "generic" department, I can at least have my transcript not show that I was enrolled in the AA program.

Just to make a slight correction, I didn't make it 90% of the way through an AA program. They kicked me out at the end of the second semester when I didn't pass the lab simulation final, so I wasn't as far along as some people think.

... But in general, do you agree that if it is even remotely possible that a current pharmacy student could get accepted to an MD/DO or even podiatry program, they at least owe it to themselves to investigate their chances of getting accepted to one of these programs? (in light of the current and future job market in pharmacy)

I can't really speak to your chances. That is going to be based entirely on the individual and the program they apply to. You just have a lot of red flags. Failed out of an AA program, then dropping out of a PharmD program. It'll be a hard sell, but still, the right person with the right interview can make anything happen.

I seriously have to caution you about the Caribbean medical schools. They are a last resort, and the majority of their graduates never match to a US residency. I looked into it myself because it sounded like fun, but it just looked too risky.

Wish I could give you some solid advice. I don't blame you for wanting to bail on pharmacy. The outlook is very bad and that's why we were trying to discourage you from enrolling in pharmacy last year. People who are solidly in pharmacy and are in fields that value experience like clinical, admin etc. are probably good for a while but you are going to be graduating in a dangerous market. I know you want to stay in your area of GA.. I don't know, man. It's a hard call. PA school is shorter, so you could graduate and get established much quicker.. Very tough call but I wouldn't drop out of pharmacy until I had something else lined up. If you stick with pharmacy just make sure you hustle. Get that internship at the hospital that only hires residents. You'll get valuable experience and can use that to get a job SOMEWHERE even if you have to move. After a couple of years you become more marketable and can get jobs with less struggle. You might have to move for a little bit, but that's just life. I'm going to second what another poster said and say you need to pick something and make it happen. Life is passing you by.

 

[PAtoPharm]

You mentioned you aren't quite 30 years old yet and don't have a family. Have you considered joining the military? If you have a bachelor's degree you could commission as an officer in a variety of different jobs, get some experience, explore the world a bit, develop some leadership skills, give yourself some time to figure yourself out, and after 3 years of service you would qualify for the post-9/11 GI Bill (you qualify for it after just 90 days of active duty service, but to get 100% of the benefit you have to have 3 years of active duty service), which would essentially cover the cost of up to three years of college or most vocational training programs. Honestly, that's what I would recommend.

I agree that joining the military can be a good option for a lot of people, but I have just never been interested in it. I don't want to move around to areas I don't already want to live in, and I never ever want to visit the Middle East. I just don't even want to step foot into that kind of landscape, even if I would (?) be away from the action. I also would just like to finally settle on a career pathway and not spend substantially more time trying to "find myself."

I also agree that someone needs to be really motivated to want to go to medical school. I knew people in undergrad who struggled to earn a 3.2 GPA in undergrad science courses who went on to graduate with a 3.5 in medical school, so I definitely think I have what it takes academically (yes, I know it means studying 5+ hours/day). Also, I used to doubt my own abilities when it came to considering medical school, but during my first semester of AA school, I took several of the same basic science classes that the medical students take (along with then first semester AA school courses) and didn't earn any grades lower than a B. I know it's not a guarantee that I would be successful in medical school, but at the very least, it gave me a confidence boost and suggested that I would be able to pass medical school classes as long as I studied.

I just don't know about podiatry. Apparently the admissions standards are much lower than medical schools' (and possibly even pharmacy schools'), and the thought of doing orthopedic F&A surgery (ligament repairs, etc.) actually sounds cool, but I'm practically gagging at the thought of clipping away crusty, overgrown, fungus-infested, yellowed, unevenly thickened toenails on nursing home patients (no offense to the patients themselves). I will do more research into podiatry as a career, but as of now, I'm not sure if I can see myself being a full-service podiatrist.

 

[PAtoPharm]

I can't really speak to your chances. That is going to be based entirely on the individual and the program they apply to. You just have a lot of red flags. Failed out of an AA program, then dropping out of a PharmD program. It'll be a hard sell, but still, the right person with the right interview can make anything happen.

I seriously have to caution you about the Caribbean medical schools. They are a last resort, and the majority of their graduates never match to a US residency. I looked into it myself because it sounded like fun, but it just looked too risky.

Wish I could give you some solid advice. I don't blame you for wanting to bail on pharmacy. The outlook is very bad and that's why we were trying to discourage you from enrolling in pharmacy last year. People who are solidly in pharmacy and are in fields that value experience like clinical, admin etc. are probably good for a while but you are going to be graduating in a dangerous market. I know you want to stay in your area of GA.. I don't know, man. It's a hard call. PA school is shorter, so you could graduate and get established much quicker.. Very tough call but I wouldn't drop out of pharmacy until I had something else lined up. If you stick with pharmacy just make sure you hustle. Get that internship at the hospital that only hires residents. You'll get valuable experience and can use that to get a job SOMEWHERE even if you have to move. After a couple of years you become more marketable and can get jobs with less struggle. You might have to move for a little bit, but that's just life. I'm going to second what another poster said and say you need to pick something and make it happen. Life is passing you by.

I agree, I am basically the most egregious example of a "damaged goods" applicant that would ever consider applying to medical school. I would basically have to blow away the MCAT and just apply and see what happens. I would also make it an imperative to apply only to schools that do closed-file interviews and which accept lots of students (e.g., LMU-DCOM in TN, which apparently matriculates 225+ students per year). Still, I realize my chances are slim.

I also agree that reapplying to AA schools might be a good bet. The problem with pharmacy is that even if I hustle and work as an intern and then graduate and take a job wherever the hell I can find one.... well, when there are going to be at least 50,000 more pharmacists than jobs and most of those pharmacists have the same plan, it still means I'm highly likely to be either unemployed or stuck with stringing together a few PRN jobs. In other words, when you're talking about an oversupply of that magnitude, how can anyone realistically expect to differentiate themselves to such a significant degree? A 40% unemployment rate is what it is (or will be).

I wish I had listened when the posters on here told me not to apply to pharmacy school. What clouded my judgment at the time was the fact that even though the rest of the country was already dealing with the oversupply situation, my local area still had around two pages of FT jobs on Indeed.com for pharmacists. Now, that list has been reduced to literally just two jobs. From what I've been told, the graduating classes of 2016 basically served as the "straw that broke the camel's back" in terms of finally tipping the southeastern job markets to saturated status. So now, when that development is coupled with the latest series of abysmal job market projections, I realize I made a huge mistake. Even if I realize that I just love everything about being a pharmacist, I have still made a huge mistake. I would expect any pharmacy student with a realistic outlook to have similar sentiments.


The Caribbean route is definitely a risky proposition. I know a few people I went to undergrad with who just graduated from Caribbean schools and they were all able to land residencies except one, who is currently doing an intern year in a specialty unrelated to the one he wanted (his plan is to reapply to the residencies of his choice later this year). If I go the Caribbean route, I would definitely have to be very strict with establishing and adhering to a study routine so that I can maintain a position in the top 30% of the class (or better). Either way, I know it's risky, but at least it's a way to finally get on track with pursuing something worthwhile.

BTW, to your last point about me needing to finally pick something and make it happen -- I agree wholeheartedly, but I'm strangely not that worried about the fact that I'm almost 30. I know a guy who is 5 years older than me who just started a 6 year oral surgery residency (graduated from dental school last year), so he will be in his early 40s before he even starts earning a substantial paycheck and paying off his loans. To top it off, he is married and already has 2 young kids. Even though I'm now older than most people who are starting out on the medical/dental school pathway, I think I'd almost be in a more advantageous situation than that guy.

 

[rxdawg21]

I couldn't tell you when it'll be saturated. It seems to be a very fluid market with those that work during school and are good getting a job somewhere decent. Back when I was a student it was said no jobs in Atlanta, but several friends got jobs there. I was offered southwest Atlanta but didn't want it. A few years ago it was relatively easy to get a job in Augusta, but I honestly don't know that market anymore. I know Macon has been good and middle ga. There isn't a lot of jobs every day of the year but the majority of them there are. Still a lot of turnover. People thinking grass is greener on the other side or truly moving onto a better company. I had several classmates leave cvs and target for sams club and publix all in last year and all in Atlanta. It seems those that have good experience (took on rxm role and did well) are easily transitioning to better jobs. I'm thinking people have retired with the long bull market we've had, have moved out of town, or were let off.


On a side note a radiation therapist makes 80k+ and takes 2 years of school I know nothing else job market wise about it but that is intrigueing

 

[steveysmith54]

I live in Los Angeles, our saturation started over a decade ago. If there is a will, there is a way. Here is how i did it. I don't know if you currently work, but you should. Start your intern career with a chain. Take "no" out of your vocabulary. Make pharmacy your craft, work on it, perfect it. Try to learn and know as much as the best techs and see what the best RPh are doing and emulate them. Make your DM see you as an asset and know that you will do anything and everything that the company wants. Then when you start your rotations, show up and stay longer than your peers. Out work others, out hustle others that's how you get ahead in life. Quit wasting your time researching other careers. if you are going to research careers, research various pharmacy career instead.

 

[CMUchicka]

I live in Los Angeles, our saturation started over a decade ago. If there is a will, there is a way. Here is how i did it. I don't know if you currently work, but you should. Start your intern career with a chain. Take "no" out of your vocabulary. Make pharmacy your craft, work on it, perfect it. Try to learn and know as much as the best techs and see what the best RPh are doing and emulate them. Make your DM see you as an asset and know that you will do anything and everything that the company wants. Then when you start your rotations, show up and stay longer than your peers. Out work others, out hustle others that's how you get ahead in life. Quit wasting your time researching other careers. if you are going to research careers, research various pharmacy career instead.

Hey Stevey,

How is retail job market for new grads in LA?

 

[PAtoPharm]

I couldn't tell you when it'll be saturated. It seems to be a very fluid market with those that work during school and are good getting a job somewhere decent. Back when I was a student it was said no jobs in Atlanta, but several friends got jobs there. I was offered southwest Atlanta but didn't want it. A few years ago it was relatively easy to get a job in Augusta, but I honestly don't know that market anymore. I know Macon has been good and middle ga. There isn't a lot of jobs every day of the year but the majority of them there are. Still a lot of turnover. People thinking grass is greener on the other side or truly moving onto a better company. I had several classmates leave cvs and target for sams club and publix all in last year and all in Atlanta. It seems those that have good experience (took on rxm role and did well) are easily transitioning to better jobs. I'm thinking people have retired with the long bull market we've had, have moved out of town, or were let off.


On a side note a radiation therapist makes 80k+ and takes 2 years of school I know nothing else job market wise about it but that is intrigueing

Thanks for the info. I actually investigated the various radiology mid-level careers (e.g., radiology tech, radiation therapist, radiologist assistant) a few years ago (2013-ish). Back then, those professions' job markets were saturated in my local area, but I don't know if they've rebounded or not. According to the BLS page for radiation therapists, their projected growth through 2024 is 14%, but we all know how quickly those growth projection numbers can change. I also remember reading about another career called dosimetrist, which someone can become after becoming a radiation therapist. Most of the programs are only one year (three semesters) long, and since they are operated as certificate-granting programs that are offered by hospitals and not universities, they usually don't charge tuition. I believe they earn salaries in the range of $110k - $130k. I can't seem to find any supply/demand statistics for them (maybe their profession is too small?), but it probably would've been a smarter choice than pharmacy school. Nuclear medicine technologist would have been another potentially good career pick; ironically enough, a local DOP I know actually recommended that I drop out of pharmacy school last semester and pursue either a NMT program or DO school, which I think I've mentioned before.

At this point and considering how far in debt I'm in (just past $100k), I feel like just going for the "gold" at this point and shooting for something really worthwhile, which is why I mentioned DO or Caribbean MD school.

 

[steveysmith54]

Hey Stevey,

How is retail job market for new grads in LA?

It's a def not a employee's market. But, turn over is high, so opportunities arise, mostly from CVS. Most new grads get 24-32 hours a week as floaters. When you're staff/PIC at CVS, you will work between 32-40 yrs. If you've worked as an intern and proved yourself, you will have typically have a job. Def important who you know in the higher places...

 

[PAtoPharm]

I live in Los Angeles, our saturation started over a decade ago. If there is a will, there is a way. Here is how i did it. I don't know if you currently work, but you should. Start your intern career with a chain. Take "no" out of your vocabulary. Make pharmacy your craft, work on it, perfect it. Try to learn and know as much as the best techs and see what the best RPh are doing and emulate them. Make your DM see you as an asset and know that you will do anything and everything that the company wants. Then when you start your rotations, show up and stay longer than your peers. Out work others, out hustle others that's how you get ahead in life. Quit wasting your time researching other careers. if you are going to research careers, research various pharmacy career instead.

Thanks for the advice, but I'm honestly so disillusioned with pharmacy by now that I really think it's better to just pursue a field that isn't going to be so massively oversaturated with workers on a national level like pharmacy is heading for. You obviously know what you're talking about, but who wants to hustle and go to extremes not to get a really really great pharmacy job, but just to get a bottom-of-the-barrel 32 hrs/week at CVS job? And if I end up in the position of applying to residencies because I realize that I'm simply not cut out for retail, then I'll REALLY be kicking myself for not just going to DO/Carib medical school since I'll end up spending almost as long as it would take to complete medical school + residency anyways.

As I alluded to earlier, it really comes down to this -- if guys like gwarm01 and msweph and other pharmacists are already talking about planning their exit strategies and are even pondering returning to school to train for new careers, then why not take advantage of having the benefit of knowing the direction the job market is headed in and get a head-start on doing just that? Even if it means going back to AA school...

 

[tennischamp822]

At this point and considering how far in debt I'm in (just past $100k), I feel like just going for the "gold" at this point and shooting for something really worthwhile, which is why I mentioned DO or Caribbean MD school.

Don't do Caribbean MD. You ignored everyone telling you not to do pharmacy and now you are ignoring everyone again telling you not to do Caribbean. It's too risky nowadays because the Caribbean schools are admitting more students (aka it's a lot easier to get in) and weeding out more people before third year (third year clinical spots cost $)

Shadow podiatry and see if you like it - that is your best bet if you can't get into a DO school. There is a ton of nasty stuff in medicine as well (rectal exams, vaginal exams etc). I know a very financially successful podiatrist who pretty much only does surgical cases, so you can do something like that just FYI.

 

[PAtoPharm]

Don't do Carib MD. You ignored everyone telling you not to do pharmacy and now you are ignoring everyone again telling you not to do Caribbean. It's too risky nowadays because the Carib schools are admitting more students (aka easier acceptances) and weeding out more people before third year (third year clinical spots cost $)

Shadow podiatry and see if you like it - that is your best bet if you can't do DO or AA. There is a ton of nasty stuff in medicine as well (rectal exams, vaginal exams etc)

I will look more into podiatry. I'm not ignoring the people who are telling me not to apply to Caribbean schools; I'm just weighing the risks as well as benefits of attending a program, like someone would do with any other potential career. I agree that DO school would be a much safer bet, *if* there is any hope of me getting accepted to a program. I guess I can always call/email DO program admissions directors and point-blank ask them if someone with my background would ever have a chance of getting accepted to their program.