The HRSA predicts an oversupply of ~50,000 pharmacists by 2025; similar predictions for NPs/PAs

[PAtoPharm]

I'm speechless...

Good luck.

Speechless? Why, because you figured I'd stay in pharmacy school? No future for me there (or at least not one I'd be content with).

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[owlegrad]

what's with this bizarre fixation on the community college programs? Did you miss the part in my post where I said that the rad tech program was just a back-up option in case I can't get into AA school again (unlikely)? AA school is the primary goal here. And yes, even if you don't like the idea of me ever being successful, it doesn't change the fact that they earn higher salaries than pharmacists, their education is often cheaper, and that AA/CRNA school only takes about 55% of the amount of time that it takes to complete pharmacy school.

And when you compare an LTC pharmacist working in the southeast for $38 hr (yes, it is a fact that LTC pharmacy contractors in the south are paying this wage or close to it) for 40 hrs/wk with $130k+ in loans to pay back to an MRI tech earning $95k working 45 hrs/week with no debt to pay back, who's actually making more?

Whoever told you this is lying. It is not a "fact" at all. I mean maybe one LTC company is paying that low but it is far, FAR lower than the normal LTC rate. You don't have to lie to make pharmacy sound worse, the actual facts are much more compelling. Perhaps you truly believe this nonsense in which case all I can say is as an actual pharmacist who works in LTC in the southeast $38/hr is NOT the going rate.

 

[owlegrad]

As a rad tech turned pharmacist, I figure it's my turn to chime in. In my opinion, you will never be happy if you take that career path. Number one, there is zero autonomy. I graduated from X-ray school in 1994, worked my way up over the years and was cross trained in CT and MRI. When I left, I was working at a major university trauma center. I could do the job with my eyes closed, we all could. After seeing literally thousands of scans, your eye jumps to the slightest anomaly and though untrained to diagnose, you know exactly what you are seeing. You spend your life being "just the technologist" as you dial the phone for the attending or resident to speak with the radiologist, who is often someone fresh into their residency doing the preliminary read. The trauma surgeons gather around while you do your magic, then discuss with the radiologist just what you should do next, and you wait for their instruction. You follow strict protocols and ask permission to deviate. In smaller hospitals its common to go get your own patients and transfer the beds/stretchers/wheelchairs down to the rad department yourself, and you'll have little help because most of your coworkers are on "light duty" because they hurt their back on the job 10 years ago.

NMT is another route, and yes the best way is to become a rad tech first so when you hate your job as most people do, you can at least transition into another modality. If you go straight for NMT your are stuck with no alternatives. Radiation therapy and dosimetry are completely different paths, and though related to NMT, that would not be the proper pathway. Rad tech or NMT are specific degrees and do not transfer into a radiation therapy or dosimetry program. Also note that each health system has a limited number of dosimetrists - not a lot of job prospects.

NMT you will hauling around the pharmaceuticals prepared by the radiopharmacist, doing the grunt work and getting the exposure in the room with the patient while the pharmacist is heading home at 2pm. Trust me, I don't know you but from your posts I think you will hate it.

Number two, you will not make the 90k you are talking about. I left radiology when I graduated from pharmacy school in 2016 and it was only my final year that I topped 90k, and this was working permanent weekend nights with a $10/hr shift differential. I graduated from X-ray school in 1994. It took me 22 years of hard work and jumping on every opportunity and undesirable shift to make that money.

I worked full time in CT or MRI for all those years and I loved it because I eventually worked at a great place with coworkers that were like family and a boss that cared. Even then, we all (I mean all of us) hated the job, we just loved hanging out together and got through it. You will be puked on, crapped on, spit at... your regular patients will die before their next appointment.

As a 2016 pharmacy graduate I worked my first paid shift as a pharmacist on the same day my license was granted by the state and I've worked 40+ hours since. I was hired at 40 hours as staff and promoted to RXM 6 months later at $5500 base salary per 2 week pay period. This is 143,000 base with chance for overtime if I choose to work extra shifts, as well as a yearly bonus. The difference between 90k and 143k is living by a strict budget vs doing whatever the heck I want to with minimal worry. Right now I'm waiting for my husband to finish up some work so we can take a last minute 3 day trip to the mountains, just because we feel like it. The difference between 90k and 143k is the same as the difference between 90k and 37k - it's huge.

Beside the money, I'll touch one last time on autonomy and respect. Yes we have to work for places like wags and cvs. I've had my share of the huge teaching hospital scene and want no parts of it as a pharmacist. I like the fast pace of the community pharmacy and the time I have with my techs and patients. Yes, many of the patients are royal pains in the a** and I walk away wishing I could tell them what's truly on my mind (once in awhile I do it in weakness, and it turns out it's not all that satisfying) but this no different from the belligerent drunk blowing chunks into the cracks of my scanner while the person he plowed into with his truck is in critical condition on the adjacent scanner. People suck, and we all need to deal with that. I personally like the balance I have as people ask for my advice and actually take it to heart... In radiology the question is usually followed by "oh never mind, your just the tech." Please take my advice and don't do it, not even as a back up.

A truly insightful post, but you wasted your time and energy. PA is immune to advice he doesn't want. I do hope your post helps other people who read it though. :thumbsup:

 

[PAtoPharm]

Whoever told you this is lying. It is not a "fact" at all. I mean maybe one LTC company is paying that low but it is far, FAR lower than the normal LTC rate. You don't have to lie to make pharmacy sound worse, the actual facts are much more compelling. Perhaps you truly believe this nonsense in which case all I can say is as an actual pharmacist who works in LTC in the southeast $38/hr is NOT the going rate.

Ok, so let's say that the going rate is $51/hr. That's still less than the $65/hr and 6 wks of PTO that most AA/CRNA graduates are being offered after spending half the time/money in school. Also, unless they've worked somewhere for years, nobody in pharmacy gets 6 wks of PTO. The additional PTO that anesthesia midlevels earn alone makes it worth pursuing over pharmacy (without even taking into consideration all the other downsides of pharmacy)

 

[PAtoPharm]

A truly insightful post, but you wasted your time and energy. PA is immune to advice he doesn't want. I do hope your post helps other people who read it though. :thumbsup:

You guys are unreal. Where I'm from, "last resort back-up plan" means an individual won't be pursuing that plan unless they have absolutely no other choice. I guess you all are fixating on trashing the rad tech field because it's practically impossible to come up with any advantages that pharmacy has over being an anesthetist (hell, even their future provider oversupply is only going to be a fraction of pharmacy's ~57k more pharmacists than jobs, according to the HRSA and BLS)

 

[owlegrad]

Ok, so let's say that the going rate is $51/hr. That's still less than the $65/hr and 6 wks of PTO that most AA/CRNA graduates are being offered after spending half the time/money in school. Also, unless they've worked somewhere for years, nobody in pharmacy gets 6 wks of PTO. The additional PTO that anesthesia midlevels earn alone makes it worth pursuing over pharmacy (without even taking into consideration all the other downsides of pharmacy)

Right, why lie? Just use real numbers to make a valid comparison. No need to make up absurdly low pharmacy salaries to compare against the highest/best case scenario in other fields.

 

[owlegrad]

You guys are unreal. Where I'm from, "last resort back-up plan" means an individual won't be pursuing that plan unless they have absolutely no other choice. I guess you all are fixating on trashing the rad tech field because it's practically impossible to come up with any advantages that pharmacy has over being an anesthetist (hell, even their future provider oversupply is only going to be a fraction of pharmacy's ~57k more pharmacists than jobs, according to the HRSA and BLS)

You have never shown any interest in taking our advice up to now, why should that change?

 

[PAtoPharm]

Right, why lie? Just use real numbers to make a valid comparison. No need to make up absurdly low pharmacy salaries to compare against the highest/best case scenario in other fields.

Best case scenario? Just visit Gaswork.com and view a random selection of AA/CRNA jobs. Yes, you'll see that not only are they earning higher salaries and more PTO than pharmacists, but they even have job listings for desirable areas like Atlanta and South FL!

 

[owlegrad]

Best case scenario? Just visit Gaswork.com and view a random selection of AA/CRNA jobs. Yes, you'll see that not only are they earning higher salaries and more PTO than pharmacists, but they even have job listings for desirable areas like Atlanta and South FL!

Wow you have never mentioned that before, thanks for sharing!

 

[PAtoPharm]

Wow you have never mentioned that before, thanks for sharing!

Ok, if that isn't enough proof for you, what else do you want? Like I give a flying **** what you or anyone else here thinks. Reality is what it is. If you don't want to accept that other professions take less time and money to pursue that lead to better paying (and better all-around jobs), then that's you're problem. I don't care anymore. I'm just happy to be moving on to a profession that will actually cost less to pursue from beginning to end than what I would've had to spend to complete 3/4 of a worthless degree that qualifies someone to be nothing more than a walking commodity.

 

[owlegrad]

Ok, if that isn't enough proof for you, what else do you want? Like I give a flying **** what you or anyone else here thinks. Reality is what it is. If you don't want to accept that other professions take less time and money to pursue that lead to better paying (and better all-around jobs), then that's you're problem. I don't care anymore. I'm just happy to be moving on to a profession that will actually cost less to pursue from beginning to end than what I would've had to spend to complete 3/4 of a worthless degree that qualifies someone to be nothing more than a walking commodity.

What I want is for you to go out and enjoy life as a <whatever you end up pursuing>. It can't be healthy spending so much time arguing with pharmacists about how much better off you are then them when so far all you have done is fail out of one professional program and drop out of another. They say living well is the best revenge so go do it! Carpe Diem!

 

[wagrxm2000]

So what are the statistics for these schools? How many graduates per year? What kind of students are they accepting and do you think your career resume will get you in? Finally do you think you can put your previous failures behind you and keep at it plus why will it be different this time?

If this has previous been posted, I didn't see it.

Side note about saturation, I've picked up shifts every chance I get this year and they are everywhere in the Midwest.

 

[Saiyo]

Geez this thread is getting mean. I did miss you though @PAtoPharm. A bunch of us are already stuck in this profession, and for us it is what it is. We all recommend against joining as the future isn't looking good, but for people who are already have sunk time and resources into school, the general recommendation is just to finish the degree and then figure something out instead of being in limbo. Maybe you are right and being a PA is indeed a lot better than being a rph. Come back and tell us what its like after you are actually working as one. We all know the future for pharmacy is not looking so rosy, and I swear I've read the same list of reasons why pharmacy sucks at least 5 times already. What I don't get is why you keep on repeating those same points and trashing on us.

 

[steveysmith54]

Geez this thread is getting mean. I did miss you though @PAtoPharm. A bunch of us are already stuck in this profession, and for us it is what it is. We all recommend against joining as the future isn't looking good, but for people who are already have sunk time and resources into school, the general recommendation is just to finish the degree and then figure something out instead of being in limbo. Maybe you are right and being a PA is indeed a lot better than being a rph. Come back and tell us what its like after you are actually working as one. We all know the future for pharmacy is not looking so rosy, and I swear I've read the same list of reasons why pharmacy sucks at least 5 times already. What I don't get is why you keep on repeating those same points and trashing on us.

I ageee with you that thread is getting too mean with multiple personal attacks...

I hope that this doesn't qualify as a personal attack, but in my opinion patopharmd is a classical example of someone who should have never been in pharmacy school. He has zero understanding of what the profession was abt and had no intentions of doing what it takes to be successful in it... he found out abt it in p1; realized that it wasn't the right fit for him...

He is making the right choice to exit. I wish him well...

 

[F1rstGen]

@PAtoPharm you seem to want to fixate on that one anecdotal example to generalize that all radiology/MRI techs make very close to $95K/year.

In my hospital they start at $15/hr and max out around $23/hr and this is pretty well the case for the entire state. I'm also in the south which tends to have the highest salaries. Would you still be ok with you career decision if you were facing this reality?

The job market for these technician level jobs is also getting flooded at the same rate but the ground floor for them is muuuuuch lower than that of pharmacy. Good luck with you future though and I hope you find something you can actually enjoy and stick with.

 

[F1rstGen]

Ok, if that isn't enough proof for you, what else do you want? Like I give a flying **** what you or anyone else here thinks. Reality is what it is. If you don't want to accept that other professions take less time and money to pursue that lead to better paying (and better all-around jobs), then that's you're problem. I don't care anymore. I'm just happy to be moving on to a profession that will actually cost less to pursue from beginning to end than what I would've had to spend to complete 3/4 of a worthless degree that qualifies someone to be nothing more than a walking commodity.

Well that settles everything.

/thread

Lock er down mods.

 

[nonizondi]

If I had alternatives, I would honestly probably choose to go to dental school, but I understand that it is so insanely competitive to get accepted to essentially any dental school that the thought isn't even worth entertaining.

Since you can't decide on any profession maybe you should become a hooker but it is so insanely competitivethat the thought isn't even worth entertaining (in your own words)

 

[PAtoPharm]

@PAtoPharm you seem to want to fixate on that one anecdotal example to generalize that all radiology/MRI techs make very close to $95K/year.

In my hospital they start at $15/hr and max out around $23/hr and this is pretty well the case for the entire state. I'm also in the south which tends to have the highest salaries. Would you still be ok with you career decision if you were facing this reality?

The job market for these technician level jobs is also getting flooded at the same rate but the ground floor for them is muuuuuch lower than that of pharmacy. Good luck with you future though and I hope you find something you can actually enjoy and stick with.

Geez, are people really fixating on this rad tech BS? I guess people are just desperate to put down any profession that could be possibly characterized in a negative manner as compared to pharmacy. Look, I am going to AA school. That is the goal. If I don't get accepted during the current admissions cycle, I will re-apply next year. I wasn't even the person who said that rad techs earned $95k/yr. How about you try and find detractors to being an AA/CRNA as compared to being a pharmacist? Here's a start for you: they have to work under anesthesiologist supervision (although an AA-to-CRNA bridge program may be in the works), and they can't get licensed (yet) in states like CA and NY. Good luck making the list much longer than that.

 

[PAtoPharm]

I ageee with you that thread is getting too mean with multiple personal attacks...

I hope that this doesn't qualify as a personal attack, but in my opinion patopharmd is a classical example of someone who should have never been in pharmacy school. He has zero understanding of what the profession was abt and had no intentions of doing what it takes to be successful in it... he found out abt it in p1; realized that it wasn't the right fit for him...

He is making the right choice to exit. I wish him well...

What I didn't expect was that the job market would become so severely saturated even in traditionally undesirable areas like the southeast. When I started pharmacy school, there were multiple openings posted by CVS, Walgreens, Publix, Walmart, Costco, Kroger, overnights, nuclear pharmacy, you name it. Then after the graduates in the c/o 2016 started getting licensed, that influx of new pharmacists finally pushed the job market over the edge into totally saturated territory, and for a solid 6+ months, there have been virtually zero jobs posted by any chains (not to mention the fact that it has now been close to 4 years since a single hospital pharmacist was hired here). So even if working for CVS/Walgreens wasn't an insufferable high-stress job, I still would be leaving pharmacy because I simply can't imagine forcing myself to live in BFE, regardless of what the profession is. So if moving to the middle of nowhere is what it's going to take to be successful in pharmacy, then you are absolutely right... I'm not willing to do what it takes

 

[PAtoPharm]

So what are the statistics for these schools? How many graduates per year? What kind of students are they accepting and do you think your career resume will get you in? Finally do you think you can put your previous failures behind you and keep at it plus why will it be different this time?

If this has previous been posted, I didn't see it.

Side note about saturation, I've picked up shifts every chance I get this year and they are everywhere in the Midwest.

Competitiveness varies from school to school; some of them are as competitive as lower-ranked DO schools. Keep in mind that I didn't fail out of pharmacy school. I left on my own. Also, your point about having plenty of shifts to pick up in the midwest proves my point about the job market. I could never imagine forcing myself to live in the rural midwest to find a FT job, and I'm glad I won't have to.

 

[CYP-0]

Just came across this thread.

Everytime I read through OP's posts, for some reason, Zyprexa and Lithium kept resonating in my head.

My Naplex is next week. Could this mean I'm ready?

Sent from my HTC One_M8 using SDN mobile

 

[PAtoPharm]

What I want is for you to go out and enjoy life as a <whatever you end up pursuing>. It can't be healthy spending so much time arguing with pharmacists about how much better off you are then them when so far all you have done is fail out of one professional program and drop out of another. They say living well is the best revenge so go do it! Carpe Diem!

Your post needs a correction. I technically didn't fail out of AA school because I only failed one class. Remember, I had the option to return to start the program over with the next class, but I foolishly thought pharmacy was the way to go. If I had actually failed out of AA school, I wouldn't be eligible to re-apply to the program. According to the school, I am classified as a former student who failed one program, chose not to return with the proceeding cohort of students, and must now re-apply as a new student. I wouldn't have that option if I had failed two courses (in that case, I would be officially "dismissed").

 

[Jbrl]

Speechless? Why, because you figured I'd stay in pharmacy school? No future for me there (or at least not one I'd be content with).

Moreso your oddly misplaced aggression and condescension.

Again, all I can do is wish you luck. No matter what profession you choose, you'll always be the common denominator. That includes the behavior you display.

 

[Z-Qualizer]

I appreciate the advice, but keep in mind that my primary goal is to get re-accepted to AA school. The only reason I considered rad tech as a back-up is because if it turns out that I absolutely cannot get accepted to another AA program, then I have absolutely nothing going for me in terms of having a professional, well-paying career, so when you have that kind of perspective, then the prospect of becoming a rad tech (and then potentially a rad therapist and dosimetrist) is appealing as an if-all-else-fails alternative. But like I said, it hopefully won't be an alternative I have to turn to.

You guys are unreal. Where I'm from, "last resort back-up plan" means an individual won't be pursuing that plan unless they have absolutely no other choice. I guess you all are fixating on trashing the rad tech field because it's practically impossible to come up with any advantages that pharmacy has over being an anesthetist (hell, even their future provider oversupply is only going to be a fraction of pharmacy's ~57k more pharmacists than jobs, according to the HRSA and BLS)

Geez, are people really fixating on this rad tech BS? I guess people are just desperate to put down any profession that could be possibly characterized in a negative manner as compared to pharmacy. Look, I am going to AA school. That is the goal. If I don't get accepted during the current admissions cycle, I will re-apply next year. I wasn't even the person who said that rad techs earned $95k/yr.

In light of the amazing & informative post by PharmhopefulNC: If you don't get accepted/re-accepted to AA school, I think you need a better "last resort back-up plan" besides Rad Tech or RE-re-applying to AA school NEXT year (another year lost). What about Dental Hygiene? I remember you were strongly considering that before?

 

[wagrxm2000]

Competitiveness varies from school to school; some of them are as competitive as lower-ranked DO schools. Keep in mind that I didn't fail out of pharmacy school. I left on my own. Also, your point about having plenty of shifts to pick up in the midwest proves my point about the job market. I could never imagine forcing myself to live in the rural midwest to find a FT job, and I'm glad I won't have to.

What exactly do you think we can't do out here that you get to do in Georgia? You keep saying bfe but what is it that you feel you would miss out on?

 

[gwarm01]

What exactly do you think we can't do out here that you get to do in Georgia? You keep saying bfe but what is it that you feel you would miss out on?

Hah, I was thinking the same thing. I know Atlanta has been booming lately, but other than that most people would consider George to be BFE. The midwest has Chicago, Milwaukee, Minneapolis.. tons of large cities with plenty to offer. Low cost of living as well.

 

[quickpic007]

Wow, I pretty much forgot about this thread. To give an update while I still remember to visit SDN from time to time, I'm taking the GRE next month and will be sending out my AA/PA school applications after that. I am also applying to a local 3-semester RN program and a radiology tech program just to have additional options. The rad tech program is somewhat appealing because I can complete that program in a year and then become a NMT after that with additional training/certs/courses. NMT's make within $4-$5/hour of what local hospital pharmacists earn, and I got in touch with an NMT manager/director who makes over $130k for doing low-stress work and with no student loan debt to pay back. The rad tech pathway is also flexible because rad techs can pursue additional school/training to become radiation therapists and then dosimetrists, who earn six figure incomes.

At this point, I am totally done with pharmacy school and will not be returning to school next fall. Even the preceptor I had during the spring semester told me "in good conscience" to at least consider other options, and I didn't even ask her if it was a bad idea to continue pursuing pharmacy. She said it's a good idea to get out while it's still early for me. I have also gotten in touch with c/0 2017 grads who are looking at relocating to rural MS and LA because there are literally no jobs left in most of civilized GA. A couple of the younger ones I talked to who don't have that much in loans to pay back are looking at applying to PA or nursing programs.

Pharmacy school has been the biggest mistake of my life, and my now well-informed family thinks I'd be insane to resume classes in the fall. There is literally one job opening in my area right now, and that is at a CVS that hasn't been able to keep a single FT pharmacist on staff. The last one they hired quit after 2 days, and they sadly had previous retail experience. There is absolutely no future in this field.

At the very least, pharmacy school was a good opportunity to raise my GPA so that I can be more competitive for AA/PA program admissions.

I am quite pleased to hear you have come to your senses and will not continue to throw your money away at RX school! I recall posting that RN and x-ray would be good, glad you followed up. To my limited knowledge student loans can only be discharged if you have a debilitating disease/diagnosis that prevents you from gainful employment.

RX has become a field of have and have-nots, like many aspects of our nation today. I just hope you find gainful employment in our society.

 

[PAtoPharm]

Wait.. how does the availablity of OT prove your point about the job market?

It proves my point because it shows that in order to increase one's chances of finding FT work as a pharmacist, they'll have to move to a rural flyover state. I don't care that they have a few large cities people like to live in, which is basically a moot point since those cities (especially Chicago) are known to be saturated. The fact is I don't want to move across the country just to find a job that, in and of itself, sucks so hard these days

 

[PAtoPharm]

I am quite pleased to hear you have come to your senses and will not continue to throw your money away at RX school! I recall posting that RN and x-ray would be good, glad you followed up. To my limited knowledge student loans can only be discharged if you have a debilitating disease/diagnosis that prevents you from gainful employment.

RX has become a field of have and have-nots, like many aspects of our nation today. I just hope you find gainful employment in our society.

Man, I know you hope things work out, but I really don't understand why people fixate on my passive mention of considering rad tech as a potential backup to a backup plan. The plan moving forward is to get reaccepted to AA school. I'm confident that I can score an acceptance to at least one school since there are several new programs that have opened recently that aren't attracting lots of applicants yet.

BTW, fun fact -- another former AA student who failed out of my class is now pursuing RN school with the goal of becoming a CRNA. I just don't know if I have the stomach to do RN work.

 

[PAtoPharm]

In light of the amazing & informative post by PharmhopefulNC: If you don't get accepted/re-accepted to AA school, I think you need a better "last resort back-up plan" besides Rad Tech or RE-re-applying to AA school NEXT year (another year lost). What about Dental Hygiene? I remember you were strongly considering that before?

Dental hygiene is an option, but I would rather do something that offers a higher income ceiling and more PTO. I have come to realize that PTO and the opportunity to take vacations is extremely important to me, so even if AAs/CRNAs and pharmacists actually made the same money, AA school would still be more appealing to me because of the incredible 6+ weeks of PTO they receive (and no, this is not me cherry picking one or two anesthetist jobs; most of them get this much time off). If I don't get accepted to AA school, it's worth it to me to spend one more year trying to get reaccepted.

However, I am keeping an eye on the news to keep up with any legislative victories (scope of practice, etc.) in the dental hygiene field, so if they manage to win some degree of independent practice privileges on a national scale, I will lend more thought to pursuing the hygiene program. I'm not used to being associated with a profession that actually has the potential to win their legislative battles, so we'll see what happens in that field.

 

[Z-Qualizer]

BTW, fun fact -- another former AA student who failed out of my class is now pursuing RN school with the goal of becoming a CRNA. I just don't know if I have the stomach to do RN work.

However, I am keeping an eye on the news to keep up with any legislative victories (scope of practice, etc.) in the dental hygiene field, so if they manage to win some degree of independent practice privileges on a national scale, I will lend more thought to pursuing the hygiene program. I'm not used to being associated with a profession that actually has the potential to win their legislative battles, so we'll see what happens in that field.

Awesome... yeah I definitely think you should keep Dental Hygiene and RN-to-eventual-CRNA on the back burner just in case... that way you have plenty of options!!

 

[owlegrad]

Man, I know you hope things work out, but I really don't understand why people fixate on my passive mention of considering rad tech as a potential backup to a backup plan. The plan moving forward is to get reaccepted to AA school. I'm confident that I can score an acceptance to at least one school since there are several new programs that have opened recently that aren't attracting lots of applicants yet.

BTW, fun fact -- another former AA student who failed out of my class is now pursuing RN school with the goal of becoming a CRNA. I just don't know if I have the stomach to do RN work.

Man, where have I heard that one before? It sounds so familiar.

 

[PAtoPharm]

Man, where have I heard that one before? It sounds so familiar.

Hold your horses there. Three new programs is not the same as 100+ (I.e., the lead set by the pharmacy professions).

 

[wagrxm2000]

It proves my point because it shows that in order to increase one's chances of finding FT work as a pharmacist, they'll have to move to a rural flyover state. I don't care that they have a few large cities people like to live in, which is basically a moot point since those cities (especially Chicago) are known to be saturated. The fact is I don't want to move across the country just to find a job that, in and of itself, sucks so hard these days

You should stop saying bfe then and simply say you refuse to leave Georgia. If a person absolutely wants to live in the major cities, there are areas you simply can't find a job. There's absolutely nothing wrong with living an hour away at least in the Midwest. In fact, I love living outside our major city. Once you get older you'll understand this. I have no desire being in that traffic every day. I enjoy my short trip to work and when we want to go to our major city, we either make a day trip or stay with family and friends.

I'd still like to know what you would miss out on in our "fly over" states that you do in Georgia?

 

[LoveWillSaveTheDay]

You should stop saying bfe then and simply say you refuse to leave Georgia. If a person absolutely wants to live in the major cities, there are areas you simply can't find a job. There's absolutely nothing wrong with living an hour away at least in the Midwest. In fact, I love living outside our major city. Once you get older you'll understand this. I have no desire being in that traffic every day. I enjoy my short trip to work and when we want to go to our major city, we either make a day trip or stay with family and friends.

I'd still like to know what you would miss out on in our "fly over" states that you do in Georgia?

This x1000! Just moved to a big city temporarily and I HATE the traffic! Def miss my small town in the midwest and the cheap cost of living. My rent was 525 for a one bedroom, all utilities included....

 

[wagrxm2000]

This x1000! Just moved to a big city temporarily and I HATE the traffic! Def miss my small town in the midwest and the cheap cost of living. My rent was 525 for a one bedroom, all utilities included....

Not to brag but we have one of the nicest houses in our area plus we actually get to have a yard and pool.

 

[moose10]

Man am I going to miss midwest housing/rent prices....never paid over 500/mo with my roomies as a student for 8 years. Rent has tripled for my next place this coming year! But i really like where I am going to be, so I'm cool with it for now.

 

[PAtoPharm]

You should stop saying bfe then and simply say you refuse to leave Georgia. If a person absolutely wants to live in the major cities, there are areas you simply can't find a job. There's absolutely nothing wrong with living an hour away at least in the Midwest. In fact, I love living outside our major city. Once you get older you'll understand this. I have no desire being in that traffic every day. I enjoy my short trip to work and when we want to go to our major city, we either make a day trip or stay with family and friends.

I'd still like to know what you would miss out on in our "fly over" states that you do in Georgia?

Look, what it comes down to is that I don't want to relocate to another damn state just to find a job. I'm not even insisting on living in some huge city like Atlanta or Miami, but I want to at least live in a medium-sized city that has nice restaurants, amenities, upscale areas, etc. I'm simply not spending the additional time, money, and effort it would take to get this degree just so I can be forced to move to a rural area I don't want to live in that happens to be in some state I would never otherwise consider moving to. Think of it as a form of "pigeonholing" I want to avoid. I also don't like the idea of having to get on a damn airplane anytime I want to take a vacation somewhere. This could all be a moot point anyways, because how much longer will the midwest rural towns remain unsaturated as more and more new grads realize that they, too, will have to move to those areas if they want a job?

Here's another way to look at it. I would never want to live in a small town in GA called Rome. However, if I absolutely had to, check out the income, PTO, and benefits package I'd receive if I was willing to go there:

GasWork.com - Reference #220229

I know that nobody here likes to view evidence that even the most undesirable AA/CRNA jobs can be better than the most desirable pharmacy jobs (in fact, I specifically recall you saying that you're not going to click any links I post -- because you're... in denial?), but that doesn't change reality. If I absolutely had to accept moving to BFE and took that job, I'd be earning a base salary of $150k with a 5% 401k match and 6 weeks of PTO. If I chose or had to take call, I'd be earning an extra $460+, even if I just came in for two hours on a weekend day.

So whereas in the anesthesia field moving to a BFE area rewards the employee with a better-than-average compensation/benefits package, moving to a rural BFE area as a pharmacist doesn't get you anything more (aside from maybe a sign-on bonus) than a pharmacist would earn by living in a nicer area (maybe a few dollars more/hour?) -- in fact, that's what new pharmacy graduates are having to resort to doing just to get ANY job. They aren't moving to BFE/midwest states because they receive exceptionally above-average job offers to move to those areas; they're moving there because those are where most jobs are these days, and they sure as hell can't afford to be picky.

So in summary, if I have to move to either a rural BFE area or to a fly-over state I would never otherwise consider moving to, it's going to be because the pay/benefits/PTO/work QOL is exceptionally better than what I'd receive in a nicer area.

 

[LoveWillSaveTheDay]

Look, what it comes down to is that I don't want to relocate to another damn state just to find a job. I'm not even insisting on living in some huge city like Atlanta or Miami, but I want to at least live in a medium-sized city that has nice restaurants, amenities, upscale areas, etc. I'm simply not spending the additional time, money, and effort it would take to get this degree just so I can be forced to move to a rural area I don't want to live in that happens to be in some state I would never otherwise consider moving to. Think of it as a form of "pigeonholing" I want to avoid. I also don't like the idea of having to get on a damn airplane anytime I want to take a vacation somewhere. This could all be a moot point anyways, because how much longer will the midwest rural towns remain unsaturated as more and more new grads realize that they, too, will have to move to those areas if they want a job?

I mean, you're changing careers because you don't want move. Could stay that way if more students change like you and quit or just get their degree and refuse to move.....

 

[PAtoPharm]

I mean, you're changing careers because you don't want move. Could stay that way if more students change like you and quit or just get their degree and refuse to move.....

Did you not read anything else in my posts? I don't want to move to another state, I don't want to work for a god-awful ill-reputed company like CVS, I want more than 2 weeks of PTO, I don't want to spend so much time/money in school for such a (IMO) lackluster ROI, I don't want to complete a residency just to look forward to making even less than I'd make in a miserable retail job, I want to pursue a profession with a brighter future (both in terms of job market projections and likelihood of legislative victories)... and the list goes on. At this point, I would actually be SAVING time/money to go back and do AA school as compared to just finishing pharmacy school. And like I described in my post above, even if I eventually have to move to work as an AA, I'll be earning a much higher salary, benefits package, PTO plan, etc., which will make paying off my loans much easier.

To put it simply, becoming an AA = less debt, higher income opportunities, more PTO (which makes the income disparity between AAs/CRNAs and pharmacists even greater), easier to pay back loans; becoming a pharmacist = more debt, lower income, much less PTO, high likelihood of having to move, much more difficult to pay back loans.

Did you see the gaswork.com link I posted? Check out what the group offers for taking weekend call. If someone wants to throw an additional $460 towards their loans, a new car, or whatever else they want to spend money on, all they have to do is come in and work 2 hours on Saturday or Sunday. If they have to stay longer, then that's even more money to put towards whatever they want to pay off. That's not happening in pharmacy, even if someone really does move to BFE.

 

[wagrxm2000]

How to Become an Anesthesiologist Assistant

Yeah I'll pass on your link. Look I don't know anything about AA but by the looks of it from this website, entry level salary is in the $60k range with more experienced salaries reaching pharmacist level.

Sorry for disappointing.

 

[PAtoPharm]

How to Become an Anesthesiologist Assistant

Yeah I'll pass on your link. Look I don't know anything about AA but by the looks of it from this website, entry level salary is in the $60k range with more experienced salaries reaching pharmacist level.

Sorry for disappointing.

What the hell? You'll "pass" on my link? Why, because your opinions and conjecture are to be taken as fact and if someone offers EVIDENCE to prove that they're wrong, it is your personal policy to simply refuse to view or acknowledge the evidence? Is this for real? So you refusing to consider any evidence that may prove a closely-held of yours wrong simply means that I'm right and you're wrong. It's like being charged with a crime, attending a mandated court appearance, and refusing to defend yourself against the charges: by default, you are found guilty.

At least I know that if people with your aptitude for analytical objectivity are capable of graduating from pharmacy school, I know that I could've made it by simply continuing to put in a half-assed amount of effort and with an uncommitted attitude.

And are you blind, ******ed, or just an especially challenged combination of both? According to your own link, starting salaries for AAs in 2006 (data that has been referenced here before) ranged between $95k and $120k. The average AA starting salary is nowhere near as little as $60k/year, and it's also now higher than the $95k-$120k it was in 2006. I'm assuming you either made up the $60k figure or that your reading comprehension skills really are that under-developed.

And here's a challenge for you. Prove to me that the starting salaries offered in AA job postings on Gaswork.com or any other website are false. Just do it. I dare you.

 

[pjm9706]

What the hell? You'll "pass" on my link? Why, because your opinions and conjecture are to be taken as fact and if someone offers EVIDENCE to prove that they're wrong, it is your personal policy to simply refuse to view or acknowledge the evidence? Is this for real? So you refusing to consider any evidence that may prove a closely-held of yours wrong simply means that I'm right and you're wrong. It's like being charged with a crime, attending a mandated court appearance, and refusing to defend yourself against the charges: by default, you are found guilty.

At least I know that if people with your aptitude for analytical objectivity are capable of graduating from pharmacy school, I know that I could've made it by simply continuing to put in a half-assed amount of effort and with an uncommitted attitude.

And are you blind, ******ed, or just an especially challenged combination of both? According to your own link, starting salaries for AAs in 2006 (data that has been referenced here before) ranged between $95k and $120k. The average AA starting salary is nowhere near as little as $60k/year, and it's also now higher than the $95k-$120k it was in 2006. I'm assuming you either made up the $60k figure or that your reading comprehension skills really are that under-developed.

And here's a challenge for you. Prove to me that the starting salaries offered in AA job postings on Gaswork.com or any other website are false. Just do it. I dare you.

You need a snickers bro. And by that, I mean you need to get a life and actually pursue a career rather than spending your life on SDN

 

[Niosh]

And are you blind, ******ed, or just an especially challenged combination of both? According to your own link, starting salaries for AAs in 2006 (data that has been referenced here before) ranged between $95k and $120k. The average AA starting salary is nowhere near as little as $60k/year, and it's also now higher than the $95k-$120k it was in 2006. I'm assuming you either made up the $60k figure or that your reading comprehension skills really are that under-developed.

If you hover over GA you'll see the entry level salary is 68k, I'm guessing this is where they got their "60k range". The BLS also quoted an entry level of 64k, though that data included PAs too. I believe their ability to read is just fine.

 

[ImmunoglobulinE]

Ironically enough, I failed out of AA school last semester and will be matriculating at a well-reputed Pharm.D. program in August. Even though California and the nation's large, desirable cities are experiencing job market issues, there are many other areas (even cities/towns in California) where the pharmacist job market is still in good shape. In my hometown in the southeast, Walmart (yes, that Walmart) starts off pharmacy managers (a position new grads are hired for) at $130k, with $20k - $50k bonus potential depending on store performance. I also know a local overnight pharmacist working for another chain (think CVS/Walgreens/Rite Aid) whose base salary is $140k, with bonus potential as well.

I don't think the practices in my hometown are hiring AAs, but CRNAs working for the local ACT groups are starting off at $120k - $130k. So, just wanted to say -- the pharmacist job market ain't all bad, unless you absolutely have to live in one of the big cities.

Waow see how a lot has changed in just one year. Last year, you were hyping up pharmacy manager positions as a good position, and trash talking AA. but within one year its the other way around. By the way you don't have to reply my post am just contributing my 2 cents about how people could be so fickle minded. Who knows what career you would be a proponent for by this time next year My advice for you is to look and see what you are really interested in or what you are passionate about and follow through on a career that allows you to practice what you are passionate about, because You never know what job will get hit with the waves of saturation next. Also, get something else to do rather than reply every post on SDN. I suggest shadowing an AA for half the time you are on here; That will go a long way in helping your application.

 

[hye345]

I said it before a few pages back, and I'll (paraphrase) it here again: PA2Pharm, you are like the kid who:

A) plays Battlefield, and thinks "Gee, this looks fun! I bet I can be a soldier, that way I can drive a tank, fly an airplane, and snipe bad guys all in one day!"
B) Watches Lethal Weapon, and thinks "Hey, those guys look like they are having fun! Living in a big house (or on the beach), chasing bad guys, going out on a boat... doesn't seem that hard... I should be a cop!"
C) Watches Star Wars, and wants to be an astronaut.

 

[PAtoPharm]

I said it before a few pages back, and I'll (paraphrase) it here again: PA2Pharm, you are like the kid who:

A) plays Battlefield, and thinks "Gee, this looks fun! I bet I can be a soldier, that way I can drive a tank, fly an airplane, and snipe bad guys all in one day!"
B) Watches Lethal Weapon, and thinks "Hey, those guys look like they are having fun! Living in a big house (or on the beach), chasing bad guys, going out on a boat... doesn't seem that hard... I should be a cop!"
C) Watches Star Wars, and wants to be an astronaut.

What about the scenario where the job market becomes totally saturated and the kid says "hell no, I'm not moving for this ****?"

 

[PAtoPharm]

Waow see how a lot has changed in just one year. Last year, you were hyping up pharmacy manager positions as a good position, and trash talking AA. but within one year its the other way around. By the way you don't have to reply my post am just contributing my 2 cents about how people could be so fickle minded. Who knows what career you would be a proponent for by this time next year My advice for you is to look and see what you are really interested in or what you are passionate about and follow through on a career that allows you to practice what you are passionate about, because You never know what job will get hit with the waves of saturation next. Also, get something else to do rather than reply every post on SDN. I suggest shadowing an AA for half the time you are on here; That will go a long way in helping your application.

What do you think I've been doing over the last few months I haven't been on SDN? Generally speaking, it's funny how strong the "misery loves company" attitude is here on the SDN pharmacy forums (not necessarily saying this in response to your post). It's like people can't psychologically process the thought of someone successfully making an escape from pharmacy to something else, and especially not someone like myself who should seemingly be out of second chances. I guess it's a good thing pharmacy school coursework isn't particularly challenging since I was able to raise my GPA significantly to make myself more competitive for AA school admissions. I'm also in the process of having myself re-classified as a general studies student so that my transcript won't say "School of Pharmacy" on it, just for good measure.

 

[PAtoPharm]

double post

 

[PAtoPharm]

If you hover over GA you'll see the entry level salary is 68k, I'm guessing this is where they got their "60k range". The BLS also quoted an entry level of 64k, though that data included PAs too. I believe their ability to read is just fine.

Wow, I guess I stand corrected and the average AA starting salary is <65k and the salaries offered in real job postings (as well as those being offered to new grads) are pure shams. @seanfrommemo, have you been briefed on the latest income stats for AAs yet? Hopefully you don't have any illusions about earning a six figure income when you graduate and have resigned yourself to making $60k-$70k when you graduate