The HRSA predicts an oversupply of ~50,000 pharmacists by 2025; similar predictions for NPs/PAs

[rxdawg21]

Thanks for the info. I actually investigated the various radiology mid-level careers (e.g., radiology tech, radiation therapist, radiologist assistant) a few years ago (2013-ish). Back then, those professions' job markets were saturated in my local area, but I don't know if they've rebounded or not. According to the BLS page for radiation therapists, their projected growth through 2024 is 14%, but we all know how quickly those growth projection numbers can change. I also remember reading about another career called dosimetrist, which someone can become after becoming a radiation therapist. Most of the programs are only one year (three semesters) long, and since they are operated as certificate-granting programs that are offered by hospitals and not universities, they usually don't charge tuition. I believe they earn salaries in the range of $110k - $130k. I can't seem to find any supply/demand statistics for them (maybe their profession is too small?), but it probably would've been a smarter choice than pharmacy school. Nuclear medicine technologist would have been another potentially good career pick; ironically enough, a local DOP I know actually recommended that I drop out of pharmacy school last semester and pursue either a NMT program or DO school, which I think I've mentioned before.

At this point and considering how far in debt I'm in (just past $100k), I feel like just going for the "gold" at this point and shooting for something really worthwhile, which is why I mentioned DO or Caribbean MD school.

Honestly I don't know how good going to med school would do for you. If you tacked on another 2-300k in loans (plus your 100 capitalizing over those 4 years (another 25-30k) you are going to end up with close to half a million by the time your done with residency. Better hope you match for a high paying specialty.

I think with your debt load doing a career that takes 2 years to get into that pays >$80k is the wise choice. You can still write off your student loan interest, yet you'll make 170ishK your first 2 years out compared to racking up more debt while in school. If you can specialize like you said and make the $110-130k you'd be way better off then pharmacy or PA/NP. You could bust your butt off by doing a trade (like plumbing) and open up your own small business and build your clientele. Much more lucrative payoff in the long run if successful then mid-level healthcare.

At the same time life is too short for all the doom and gloom. Make the most of your time now, pick something you think you can enjoy with reasonable hours. I think the biggest downfall to retail pharmacy is the bad hours/every other weekends and no holiday's off. I value time off much more then an additional 20-30k in pay.

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[DrFunky]

I will look more into podiatry. I'm not ignoring the people who are telling me not to apply to Caribbean schools; I'm just weighing the risks as well as benefits of attending a program, like someone would do with any other potential career.

There really aren't many upsides. At this stage knowing your history, its way too risky to go to Carib med school for a few years, not complete or not get matched for residency, and have EVEN MORE DEBT with nothing to show for it. Yes pharmacy is becoming saturated, and so yes you will need to bust your ass and also be willing to move to less desirable areas to find work until you can land a job in your city of choice. It sounds like it's totally doable for you, if marriage and kids are not on your horizon for the near future.

 

[deleted820760]

What is AA school? I didn't know alcoholics anonymous had a school.

 

[PAtoPharm]

Honestly I don't know how good going to med school would do for you. If you tacked on another 2-300k in loans (plus your 100 capitalizing over those 4 years (another 25-30k) you are going to end up with close to half a million by the time your done with residency. Better hope you match for a high paying specialty.

I think with your debt load doing a career that takes 2 years to get into that pays >$80k is the wise choice. You can still write off your student loan interest, yet you'll make 170ishK your first 2 years out compared to racking up more debt while in school. If you can specialize like you said and make the $110-130k you'd be way better off then pharmacy or PA/NP. You could bust your butt off by doing a trade (like plumbing) and open up your own small business and build your clientele. Much more lucrative payoff in the long run if successful then mid-level healthcare.

At the same time life is too short for all the doom and gloom. Make the most of your time now, pick something you think you can enjoy with reasonable hours. I think the biggest downfall to retail pharmacy is the bad hours/every other weekends and no holiday's off. I value time off much more then an additional 20-30k in pay.

I hear a lot of people say that the additional $20k-$30k that can be earned by working in retail pharmacy just isn't worth it to them because of the extra stress, bad hours, etc., but it seems like in most of the mid-sized cities in GA and AL (Macon, Augusta, Columbus, Savannah, Albany, etc.) , the pay gap is even bigger than that (more like $40k-$50k). When you consider how much time and money pharmacy school costs these days ($100k+, even to attend a public school while living at home), it's really not financially worth it at all if someone's goal is to work in hospital pharmacy for ~$38/hr. Of course, I understand there are raises every year, but still... it doesn't like a very wise debt-to-income proposition.

I was just doing some more research into the nuclear medicine technologist career earlier today, since so many people have recommended it to me lately (even a hospital DOP!). I found out that Augusta University (formerly known as MCG, or GRU, or whatever they were calling it) has a NMT program that can be finished in 5 semesters, or less than 2 years since classes are taken during the summer. They even have a "distance" option that allows students to live at home and take the classes online and travel to the Atlanta campus once a week. Since I already have a B.S. degree, the program would only cost me $25k to complete. Yes, the median salary is "only" $75k-$80k, but a degree that takes less than 2 years to earn and which costs only $25k for a $75k salary sounds like a better deal than a degree that takes 4 years to earn, is followed by 1-2 years of residency, and costs $100k+ to earn an $80k salary. In other words -- and I say this not knowing anything about the upward mobility NMTs have in terms of raises or promotions -- I'm simply trying to make the point that (at least in medium-sized southeast cities) NMTs and hospital pharmacists have similar salaries. It's sort of like the comparison I made before between hospital pharmacists and dental hygienists -- that is another example of a profession that takes only 5 semesters of coursework to be granted entry to that has salaries that rival or exceed those of hospital pharmacists.

The only catch with the NMT field is that the BLS job growth projections are only 2-3%, like they are for pharmacy. In fact, according to the BLS projections, only 300 jobs will be added to the NMT job market through 2024. However, the HRSA report on the NMT field that I was looking at the other day seemed to suggest that NMTs were still expected to have an overall good job market through 2024, probably because NMT schools aren't substantially increasing the numbers of new NMTs that will be entering the market. In other words, it seems like low job market growth in a field isn't necessarily the problem -- it only becomes a problem when schools that supply workers to that profession's job market exceed the number of positions that will be created, whether that number is low or high.

Anyways, I'm just rambling here. I probably should have taken the DOP's recommendation to stay the hell away from pharmacy and pursue something like NMT or radiation therapist more seriously. And I just checked my student loan account balance, and I'm actually over $115k now because I took out the maximum loan amount both this semester and last semester. So even if I quit now and did the NMT or radiation therapist programs, another $25k for those programs (even if I don't take out any living expenses loan money) will push my balance to $140k, or probably $150k with interest. It would probably be nearly impossible to pay back a debt of $150k on an income of $70k-$75k, so that's why I thought it might be a better idea to withdraw from pharmacy school to pursue a program that will lead to a much higher-paying career (hence, DO school).

 

[PAtoPharm]

What is AA school? I didn't know alcoholics anonymous had a school.

Anesthesiologist Assistant (I.e., PAs who work in anesthesiology)

 

[rxdawg21]

I hear a lot of people say that the additional $20k-$30k that can be earned by working in retail pharmacy just isn't worth it to them because of the extra stress, bad hours, etc., but it seems like in most of the mid-sized cities in GA and AL (Macon, Augusta, Columbus, Savannah, Albany, etc.) , the pay gap is even bigger than that (more like $40k-$50k). When you consider how much time and money pharmacy school costs these days ($100k+, even to attend a public school while living at home), it's really not financially worth it at all if someone's goal is to work in hospital pharmacy for ~$38/hr. Of course, I understand there are raises every year, but still... it doesn't like a very wise debt-to-income proposition.

I was just doing some more research into the nuclear medicine technologist career earlier today, since so many people have recommended it to me lately (even a hospital DOP!). I found out that Augusta University (formerly known as MCG, or GRU, or whatever they were calling it) has a NMT program that can be finished in 5 semesters, or less than 2 years since classes are taken during the summer. They even have a "distance" option that allows students to live at home and take the classes online and travel to the Atlanta campus once a week. Since I already have a B.S. degree, the program would only cost me $25k to complete. Yes, the median salary is "only" $75k-$80k, but a degree that takes less than 2 years to earn and which costs only $25k for a $75k salary sounds like a better deal than a degree that takes 4 years to earn, is followed by 1-2 years of residency, and costs $100k+ to earn an $80k salary. In other words -- and I say this not knowing anything about the upward mobility NMTs have in terms of raises or promotions -- I'm simply trying to make the point that (at least in medium-sized southeast cities) NMTs and hospital pharmacists have similar salaries. It's sort of like the comparison I made before between hospital pharmacists and dental hygienists -- that is another example of a profession that takes only 5 semesters of coursework to be granted entry to that has salaries that rival or exceed those of hospital pharmacists.

The only catch with the NMT field is that the BLS job growth projections are only 2-3%, like they are for pharmacy. In fact, according to the BLS projections, only 300 jobs will be added to the NMT job market through 2024. However, the HRSA report on the NMT field that I was looking at the other day seemed to suggest that NMTs were still expected to have an overall good job market through 2024, probably because NMT schools aren't substantially increasing the numbers of new NMTs that will be entering the market. In other words, it seems like low job market growth in a field isn't necessarily the problem -- it only becomes a problem when schools that supply workers to that profession's job market exceed the number of positions that will be created, whether that number is low or high.

Anyways, I'm just rambling here. I probably should have taken the DOP's recommendation to stay the hell away from pharmacy and pursue something like NMT or radiation therapist more seriously. And I just checked my student loan account balance, and I'm actually over $115k now because I took out the maximum loan amount both this semester and last semester. So even if I quit now and did the NMT or radiation therapist programs, another $25k for those programs (even if I don't take out any living expenses loan money) will push my balance to $140k, or probably $150k with interest. It would probably be nearly impossible to pay back a debt of $150k on an income of $70k-$75k, so that's why I thought it might be a better idea to withdraw from pharmacy school to pursue a program that will lead to a much higher-paying career (hence, DO school).

Not to sure where you are getting 80k starting salary. I know several hospital pharmacists that started off high 90s at the lowest in Macon and Albany area. Not all hospitals are paying 80k. I wouldn't work for that (full time of course)

 

[PAtoPharm]

Not to sure where you are getting 80k starting salary. I know several hospital pharmacists that started off high 90s at the lowest in Macon and Albany area. Not all hospitals are paying 80k. I wouldn't work for that (full time of course)

I don't want to mention my area publicly on the forums (I think I've told you before via PM, but please do me a favor and not mention it publicly), but I have been told that $80k is the starting salary here. A salary in the $90k's is obviously better than $80k, but it still kind of sucks when you consider the fact that a 1-2 year residency is a requirement to get those positions. A radiation therapist, NMT, or dental hygienist would already be making $75k-$80k by the time a pharmacist has completed pharmacy school, residency, and is just beginning their career as a hospital pharmacist (since the other careers only take 1-2 years of school to enter, so by the time a hospital pharmacist has finished 6 years of pharm school + residency, the NMT/RT/hygienist would already have ~4 years of work experience). Also, according to Glassdoor.com, the NMT managers at my local hospital make $120k-$130k, although I don't know how rare those positions are or how difficult it is to get them. If it only takes 5 semesters and $25k of coursework to become an NMT and someone can become a manager in 3-5 years and be earning $120k by that point, then that's a way better deal than pharmacy. Unfortunately, my debt situation just makes it infeasible.

 

[DrFunky]

I hear a lot of people say that the additional $20k-$30k that can be earned by working in retail pharmacy just isn't worth it to them because of the extra stress, bad hours, etc., but it seems like in most of the mid-sized cities in GA and AL (Macon, Augusta, Columbus, Savannah, Albany, etc.) , the pay gap is even bigger than that (more like $40k-$50k). When you consider how much time and money pharmacy school costs these days ($100k+, even to attend a public school while living at home), it's really not financially worth it at all if someone's goal is to work in hospital pharmacy for ~$38/hr. Of course, I understand there are raises every year, but still... it doesn't like a very wise debt-to-income proposition.

I was just doing some more research into the nuclear medicine technologist career earlier today, since so many people have recommended it to me lately (even a hospital DOP!). I found out that Augusta University (formerly known as MCG, or GRU, or whatever they were calling it) has a NMT program that can be finished in 5 semesters, or less than 2 years since classes are taken during the summer. They even have a "distance" option that allows students to live at home and take the classes online and travel to the Atlanta campus once a week. Since I already have a B.S. degree, the program would only cost me $25k to complete. Yes, the median salary is "only" $75k-$80k, but a degree that takes less than 2 years to earn and which costs only $25k for a $75k salary sounds like a better deal than a degree that takes 4 years to earn, is followed by 1-2 years of residency, and costs $100k+ to earn an $80k salary. In other words -- and I say this not knowing anything about the upward mobility NMTs have in terms of raises or promotions -- I'm simply trying to make the point that (at least in medium-sized southeast cities) NMTs and hospital pharmacists have similar salaries. It's sort of like the comparison I made before between hospital pharmacists and dental hygienists -- that is another example of a profession that takes only 5 semesters of coursework to be granted entry to that has salaries that rival or exceed those of hospital pharmacists.

The only catch with the NMT field is that the BLS job growth projections are only 2-3%, like they are for pharmacy. In fact, according to the BLS projections, only 300 jobs will be added to the NMT job market through 2024. However, the HRSA report on the NMT field that I was looking at the other day seemed to suggest that NMTs were still expected to have an overall good job market through 2024, probably because NMT schools aren't substantially increasing the numbers of new NMTs that will be entering the market. In other words, it seems like low job market growth in a field isn't necessarily the problem -- it only becomes a problem when schools that supply workers to that profession's job market exceed the number of positions that will be created, whether that number is low or high.

Anyways, I'm just rambling here. I probably should have taken the DOP's recommendation to stay the hell away from pharmacy and pursue something like NMT or radiation therapist more seriously. And I just checked my student loan account balance, and I'm actually over $115k now because I took out the maximum loan amount both this semester and last semester. So even if I quit now and did the NMT or radiation therapist programs, another $25k for those programs (even if I don't take out any living expenses loan money) will push my balance to $140k, or probably $150k with interest. It would probably be nearly impossible to pay back a debt of $150k on an income of $70k-$75k, so that's why I thought it might be a better idea to withdraw from pharmacy school to pursue a program that will lead to a much higher-paying career (hence, DO school).

No offence, but listening to your thought process is so stressful. It sounds like you're overthinking and over complicating this. If you just pick a career you want out of interest rather than best debt to salary ratio, you would be better off then bouncing from major to major after you decide one isn't worth it financially (except in doing so, you acquired 100+k debt for nothing)

 

[PAtoPharm]

No offence, but listening to your thought process is so stressful. It sounds like you're overthinking and over complicating this. If you just pick a career you want out of interest rather than best debt to salary ratio, you would be better off then bouncing from major to major after you decide one isn't worth it financially (except in doing so, you acquired 100+k debt for nothing)

Well, for me, the factor that is even more significant than whether a career is "worth" pursuing based on debt-to-income ratio is the implications of the job market projections discussed in the OP of this thread, as well as the previously-discussed BLS projections. So even if it turns out that I love hospital pharmacy so much that an $80k-$90k salary to do it actually seems too good to be true, it doesn't make much of a difference because there are still going to be 50,000-60,000 (or more?) desperate pharmacy grads who will still be out of work, and "I don't mind going rural" won't be an option for them because even those jobs will be taken.

Someone else summarized it up pretty well: if someone is in pharmacy school and they know of any other career that has a much better job market outlook that they know they would enjoy doing just as much as pharmacy work and which pays just as well (or almost just as well), then they really owe it to themselves to investigate the feasibility of pursuing any of those careers. That's all I'm doing here. Honestly, I'm surprised there aren't more pharmacy students out there who are doing the same thing. It's not like there are going to be 1,500 more pharmacists than jobs, and so as long as you put in the half-assed effort to make sure you're not one of the "bottom 1,500" you're going to be alright. No -- there is going to be an oversupply of proportions so massive that close to half the future graduating pharmacist population may be out of work, and the organizations that are supposed to represent pharmacists are actually pushing for even more pharmacy schools to open, with some representatives claiming that there needs to be an imperative to graduate 100,000 MORE pharmacists than those that are already in the pipeline!

 

[trailerpark]

I just made a new goal. NO STUDENT LOAN BALANCE IN 2025


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[PAtoPharm]

I just made a new goal. NO STUDENT LOAN BALANCE IN 2025


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Still gotta make a living to pay the other bills!

 

[trailerpark]

I just made a new goal. Sugar Mamma by 2025.


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[Humble Sloth]

I agree, I am basically the most egregious example of a "damaged goods" applicant that would ever consider applying to medical school. I would basically have to blow away the MCAT and just apply and see what happens. I would also make it an imperative to apply only to schools that do closed-file interviews and which accept lots of students (e.g., LMU-DCOM in TN, which apparently matriculates 225+ students per year). Still, I realize my chances are slim.

I also agree that reapplying to AA schools might be a good bet. The problem with pharmacy is that even if I hustle and work as an intern and then graduate and take a job wherever the hell I can find one.... well, when there are going to be at least 50,000 more pharmacists than jobs and most of those pharmacists have the same plan, it still means I'm highly likely to be either unemployed or stuck with stringing together a few PRN jobs. In other words, when you're talking about an oversupply of that magnitude, how can anyone realistically expect to differentiate themselves to such a significant degree? A 40% unemployment rate is what it is (or will be).

I wish I had listened when the posters on here told me not to apply to pharmacy school. What clouded my judgment at the time was the fact that even though the rest of the country was already dealing with the oversupply situation, my local area still had around two pages of FT jobs on Indeed.com for pharmacists. Now, that list has been reduced to literally just two jobs. From what I've been told, the graduating classes of 2016 basically served as the "straw that broke the camel's back" in terms of finally tipping the southeastern job markets to saturated status. So now, when that development is coupled with the latest series of abysmal job market projections, I realize I made a huge mistake. Even if I realize that I just love everything about being a pharmacist, I have still made a huge mistake. I would expect any pharmacy student with a realistic outlook to have similar sentiments.


The Caribbean route is definitely a risky proposition. I know a few people I went to undergrad with who just graduated from Caribbean schools and they were all able to land residencies except one, who is currently doing an intern year in a specialty unrelated to the one he wanted (his plan is to reapply to the residencies of his choice later this year). If I go the Caribbean route, I would definitely have to be very strict with establishing and adhering to a study routine so that I can maintain a position in the top 30% of the class (or better). Either way, I know it's risky, but at least it's a way to finally get on track with pursuing something worthwhile.

BTW, to your last point about me needing to finally pick something and make it happen -- I agree wholeheartedly, but I'm strangely not that worried about the fact that I'm almost 30. I know a guy who is 5 years older than me who just started a 6 year oral surgery residency (graduated from dental school last year), so he will be in his early 40s before he even starts earning a substantial paycheck and paying off his loans. To top it off, he is married and already has 2 young kids. Even though I'm now older than most people who are starting out on the medical/dental school pathway, I think I'd almost be in a more advantageous situation than that guy.

"I wish I had listened when the posters on here told me not to apply to pharmacy school. What clouded my judgment at the time was the fact that even though the rest of the country was already dealing with the oversupply situation, my local area still had around two pages of FT jobs on Indeed.com for pharmacists. Now, that list has been reduced to literally just two jobs. From what I've been told, the graduating classes of 2016 basically served as the "straw that broke the camel's back" in terms of finally tipping the southeastern job markets to saturated status. So now, when that development is coupled with the latest series of abysmal job market projections, I realize I made a huge mistake. Even if I realize that I just love everything about being a pharmacist, I have still made a huge mistake. I would expect any pharmacy student with a realistic outlook to have similar sentiments."

We tried to warn you. Believe it or not pharmacy is actually going to get even worse by 2020. But what did you expect? It is a very easy major and very easy to get into schools in 2016. The basic math in pharm calc is simple (osmality, LWQ, NaCl equivalent, C1V1 ect) but still 50% of the class gets a C in the course. This is literally 5th grade math future pharmacists are failing.

Low risk, low reward. Low work, low reward. I went into pharmacy bc I LOVE DRUGS and would work for 5k a year. But i also live in my car and am considered homeless and have no dependents. I have friends that do insurance fraud / health care fraud / take in shady scripts / diversion and they make over 500,000 USD a year risking prison time. Are you after money? prestige? autonomy? Nothing good comes free. A pharmD degree is becoming more worthless by the month. pharmacy was hot in 2000-2004.

 

[PharmDBro2017]

Thanks for the advice, but I'm honestly so disillusioned with pharmacy by now that I really think it's better to just pursue a field that isn't going to be so massively oversaturated with workers on a national level like pharmacy is heading for. You obviously know what you're talking about, but who wants to hustle and go to extremes not to get a really really great pharmacy job, but just to get a bottom-of-the-barrel 32 hrs/week at CVS job? And if I end up in the position of applying to residencies because I realize that I'm simply not cut out for retail, then I'll REALLY be kicking myself for not just going to DO/Carib medical school since I'll end up spending almost as long as it would take to complete medical school + residency anyways.

As I alluded to earlier, it really comes down to this -- if guys like gwarm01 and msweph and other pharmacists are already talking about planning their exit strategies and are even pondering returning to school to train for new careers, then why not take advantage of having the benefit of knowing the direction the job market is headed in and get a head-start on doing just that? Even if it means going back to AA school...

I don't know anything about you but it sounds like you quit PA school, went to Pharmacy school, and now want to quit Pharmacy?

Wherever you go, people will think you're a joke because you didn't have the guts to see anything through. Whatever you do, pick your damn path and follow through with it this time. If you stay in pharmacy, welcome the grind and start hustling. The time and resources you've already wasted is astonishing. I hope your parents aren't picking up the slack (loans).

 

[Sine Cura]

Your loss of time is the ultimate sunk cost.

If you actually derive any sense of self-worth in your job or what you do for a career, you were born 30 years too late and have already lost.

 

[ChapmanPharmacy]

I have been following the comments here and the comments have helped me change my mind on some things. First off, I no longer see the talk about the predicted oversupply of pharmacist in 2025 as a problem. I hope that your continued talking about it has the desired effect, which is to convince students who are only going into pharmacy for the money, to decide not to pursue pharmacy school. From my long years of serving on the admission cmte, I would say that about 10 to 30% of interviewed applicants are in it for the money. So if we have a decrease in that amount of graduates because they have decided not to pursue pharmacy, then the market will no longer be over saturated by up to 50,000 pharmacists in 2025 as predicted. And combine that with the pharmacists who leave to do other things because of the current job market, that will leave a very robust environment for the students who do peruse pharmacy school and those pharmacists who remained as a pharmacist.

Because let's be clear about one thing, America needs pharmacists. So you can't have no students applying to pharmacy school and have all of the pharmacy schools close, because then there would be no pipeline for new pharmacists to replace the typical number of pharmacists who retire leave for other reasons.

And as for the comment someone made about pharmacy school being easy, you have got to be kidding me. Using pharmacy math as an justification for the belief that pharmacy school is easy is just ridiculous. First of all, pharmacy math is largely for the purpose of doing compounding, and you don't need calculus for that. Not all pharmacy subjects are rocket science, but Medicinal Chemistry, Pharmacokinetics, Pharmacology, and the series of Therapeutics courses are challenging, just to name a few.

And lastly, there have been predictions of a need for up to a 100,000 or so more pharmacists. Now there are predictions that there will be an over supply of up to 50,000. These are just predictions. If you love pharmacy then do it. If you are scared off by predictions, then choose something else. It's just that simple.


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[PharmDBro2017]

Doesn't seem like you changed your mind on anything, Chapman.

Oversupply of pharmacists by 50k in 2025 isn't a problem... lol this guy.... (but it makes sense, since you work in a pharmacy school and want to fill seats).

I think 10-30% is a vastly wrong estimate of people in this career for money... I think its 75%+.

 

[tennischamp822]

Anyways, I'm just rambling here. I probably should have taken the DOP's recommendation to stay the hell away from pharmacy and pursue something like NMT or radiation therapist more seriously. And I just checked my student loan account balance, and I'm actually over $115k now because I took out the maximum loan amount both this semester and last semester. So even if I quit now and did the NMT or radiation therapist programs, another $25k for those programs (even if I don't take out any living expenses loan money) will push my balance to $140k, or probably $150k with interest. It would probably be nearly impossible to pay back a debt of $150k on an income of $70k-$75k, so that's why I thought it might be a better idea to withdraw from pharmacy school to pursue a program that will lead to a much higher-paying career (hence, DO school).

Another solution for you: apply to podiatry school, work for a nonprofit afterwards and take advantage of of one of the loan forgiveness programs (PLSF, IBR etc). They will forgive the debt for you, and you still make low six figures. Alternatively, if you can get good at foot surgery, you will have a chance at making much higher salaries (200-300k per year) in these small Southeastern cities that you seem to want to stay in.

 

[rxdawg21]

Because let's be clear about one thing, America needs pharmacists. So you can't have no students applying to pharmacy school and have all of the pharmacy schools close, because then there would be no pipeline for new pharmacists to replace the typical number of pharmacists who retire leave for other reasons.

And as for the comment someone made about pharmacy school being easy, you have got to be kidding me. Using pharmacy math as an justification for the belief that pharmacy school is easy is just ridiculous. First of all, pharmacy math is largely for the purpose of doing compounding, and you don't need calculus for that. Not all pharmacy subjects are rocket science, but Medicinal Chemistry, Pharmacokinetics, Pharmacology, and the series of Therapeutics courses are challenging, just to name a few.

And lastly, there have been predictions of a need for up to a 100,000 or so more pharmacists. Now there are predictions that there will be an over supply of up to 50,000. These are just predictions. If you love pharmacy then do it. If you are scared off by predictions, then choose something else. It's just that simple.


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So all pharmacy schools will close overnight. That's just too funny. We do need many of the newer schools to close to help the pharmacy profession. If we went back to graduating 7-8k a year (half of the current #'s and the rate in the early 2000's) we would be gravy. There will always be people going into pharmacy no matter how bad it gets, just like law schools have stayed open despite a massive surplus. The reasoning you use is that of someone that either has very little grasp on complex matters and reality, or who is simply trying to deceive themselves and others as to the role they are playing into a great professions demise. That demise has been quick as evident by the huge change in working conditions for the majority of pharmacists in the past decade.

Noone in their right mind would predict we need 100k more pharmacists in the current market and current projections of graduates, that's just downright foolish.

 

[rxdawg21]

Doesn't seem like you changed your mind on anything, Chapman.

Oversupply of pharmacists by 50k in 2025 isn't a problem... lol this guy.... (but it makes sense, since you work in a pharmacy school and want to fill seats).

I think 10-30% is a vastly wrong estimate of people in this career for money... I think its 75%+.

Anyone doing retail pharmacy that claims to not be in it for the money is usually FOS. Reduce the salary to 60-70k and you'll see the reality you correctly presented (majority in it for money)

 

[tennischamp822]

It seems like you are saying that the pharmacists already in the field will be okay, and that a lot of the students trying to enter the field now will be screwed. Or am I mistaken?

 

[bulldog1123]

And lastly, there have been predictions of a need for up to a 100,000 or so more pharmacists. Now there are predictions that there will be an over supply of up to 50,000. These are just predictions. If you love pharmacy then do it. If you are scared off by predictions, then choose something else. It's just that simple.


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Do you mind sharing the research or papers that show the prediction for needing up to 100k more pharmacists? I am greatly interested in reading it.

 

[WVUPharm2007]

I have been following the comments here and the comments have helped me change my mind on some things. First off, I no longer see the talk about the predicted oversupply of pharmacist in 2025 as a problem. I hope that your continued talking about it has the desired effect, which is to convince students who are only going into pharmacy for the money, to decide not to pursue pharmacy school. From my long years of serving on the admission cmte, I would say that about 10 to 30% of interviewed applicants are in it for the money. So if we have a decrease in that amount of graduates because they have decided not to pursue pharmacy, then the market will no longer be over saturated by up to 50,000 pharmacists in 2025 as predicted. And combine that with the pharmacists who leave to do other things because of the current job market, that will leave a very robust environment for the students who do peruse pharmacy school and those pharmacists who remained as a pharmacist.

Nobody does this for anything but money. There might be 1-2 students in the class that aren't in it primarily for the money. And that might be too aggressive of an estimate. If it only paid $50,000 a year, the only people that would go through 6-7 years of school, earn a doctorate, and be six figures in debt due to loans would be very average students with below average common sense. That isn't in any way, shape, or form a good thing for the profession. Money rules everything. It always has and it always will. The higher the pay, the higher the quality of graduate your school will produce. You can get this entire Orwellian line of thought the hell outta here.

Because let's be clear about one thing, America needs pharmacists. So you can't have no students applying to pharmacy school and have all of the pharmacy schools close, because then there would be no pipeline for new pharmacists to replace the typical number of pharmacists who retire leave for other reasons.

America needs good pharmacists. And your Johnny-come-lately, money grab private pharmacy school is contributing to the slow and steady decrease in standards for entering the profession.

And lastly, there have been predictions of a need for up to a 100,000 or so more pharmacists. Now there are predictions that there will be an over supply of up to 50,000. These are just predictions. If you love pharmacy then do it. If you are scared off by predictions, then choose something else. It's just that simple.

No. But you are right that it's very simple. There were less than 80 schools. A need for a slight increase in graduates was created. You and your ilk opened 50 in a ill-advised expansion and made the shortage go to surplus in less than a decade. You did this. There isn't some dorky statistician at the department of labor who forgot to carry the 1. You did this. And you're damned right those of us in the profession are pissed.

 

[rxdawg21]

It seems like you are saying that the pharmacists already in the field will be okay, and that a lot of the students trying to enter the field now will be screwed. Or am I mistaken?

I have no idea what is going to happen. I can imagine that pay will go down, starting pay has already gone down (typical starting wages are the same today as 6-7 years ago in retail) with inflation this amounts to a 10-12% pay cut. I've heard of hospital pharmacies drastically cutting pay to the 80-90k range where established pharmacists are all making >110k. If they don't cut pharmacists pay directly, raises will stop which is an indirect way of lowering salaries. Definitely not as bad as a direct 20-30% off the top cut, but still a cut.

Where pharmacists have an advantage over new grads is in 2 places. They have experience and they have (or should have) less bad debt (and when I say bad I mean debt that has no asset behind it, ie student loans). I've noticed a trend of the better jobs plucking the cream of the crop from the crappier jobs.

New grads have the advantage of being desperate and willing to work in crap conditions/less pay in order to get out of the hole they are in. These are all generalizations and don't hold true for every case, just the majority of each group. Of course if an experienced pharmacists decided to buy the mcmansion, the luxury vehicles, etc. they too are desperate for a job.

 

[PAtoPharm]

I don't know anything about you but it sounds like you quit PA school, went to Pharmacy school, and now want to quit Pharmacy?

Wherever you go, people will think you're a joke because you didn't have the guts to see anything through. Whatever you do, pick your damn path and follow through with it this time. If you stay in pharmacy, welcome the grind and start hustling. The time and resources you've already wasted is astonishing. I hope your parents aren't picking up the slack (loans).

I didn't quit AA school; I failed a lab course and they kicked me out. Loans are all on me.

Your loss of time is the ultimate sunk cost.

If you actually derive any sense of self-worth in your job or what you do for a career, you were born 30 years too late and have already lost.

So what am I supposed to do? Just give up and go on welfare? Even if I have lost so much time, I still have to get something going.

Another solution for you: apply to podiatry school, work for a nonprofit afterwards and take advantage of of one of the loan forgiveness programs (PLSF, IBR etc). They will forgive the debt for you, and you still make low six figures. Alternatively, if you can get good at foot surgery, you will have a chance at making much higher salaries (200-300k per year) in these small Southeastern cities that you seem to want to stay in.

This could be a good idea. I remember reading a thread over on the podiatry forums where someone said they completed a residency that emphasized orthopedic F&A surgery and that they earned $400k during their most recent year of private practice. I was surprised to read that podiatrists could make that much, although I don't know if he had to take lots of call to earn that.

 

[PharmDBro2017]

How old are you PAtoPharm?

 

[PAtoPharm]

I have no idea what is going to happen. I can imagine that pay will go down, starting pay has already gone down (typical starting wages are the same today as 6-7 years ago in retail) with inflation this amounts to a 10-12% pay cut. I've heard of hospital pharmacies drastically cutting pay to the 80-90k range where established pharmacists are all making >110k. If they don't cut pharmacists pay directly, raises will stop which is an indirect way of lowering salaries. Definitely not as bad as a direct 20-30% off the top cut, but still a cut.

Where pharmacists have an advantage over new grads is in 2 places. They have experience and they have (or should have) less bad debt (and when I say bad I mean debt that has no asset behind it, ie student loans). I've noticed a trend of the better jobs plucking the cream of the crop from the crappier jobs.

New grads have the advantage of being desperate and willing to work in crap conditions/less pay in order to get out of the hole they are in. These are all generalizations and don't hold true for every case, just the majority of each group. Of course if an experienced pharmacists decided to buy the mcmansion, the luxury vehicles, etc. they too are desperate for a job.

I have been told that in my area, it's almost an expectation that new grads will work 1-2 years for either CVS or Walgreens for their first job, and that the new general understanding is that pharmacist jobs at Publix, Walmart, and the other "good to work for" retail chains are essentially reserved for experienced pharmacists. As a local, recent-grad pharmacist told me, "expect to put in your year or two at CVS or Walgreens and then hope there's an opening at one of the other chains so you can jump ship to something better." Of course, now even CVS and Walgreens are almost fully staffed in my area, so I guess it's a moot point. BTW, on the point you made about hospital pharmacies cutting pay, I know for a fact that a local DOP at one of the hospitals here is only making $100k-$105k, and this is for a director.

 

[PAtoPharm]

How old are you PAtoPharm?

Pushing 30

 

[PharmDBro2017]

Pushing 30

I met a medical resident recently who mentioned being over 40 and still in residency, something to think about...

 

[rxdawg21]

I have been told that in my area, it's almost an expectation that new grads will work 1-2 years for either CVS or Walgreens for their first job, and that the new general understanding is that pharmacist jobs at Publix, Walmart, and the other "good to work for" retail chains are essentially reserved for experienced pharmacists. As a local, recent-grad pharmacist told me, "expect to put in your year or two at CVS or Walgreens and then hope there's an opening at one of the other chains so you can jump ship to something better." Of course, now even CVS and Walgreens are almost fully staffed in my area, so I guess it's a moot point. BTW, on the point you made about hospital pharmacies cutting pay, I know for a fact that a local DOP at one of the hospitals here is only making $100k-$105k, and this is for a director.

You've seen his pay stub or w-2? Otherwise you don't know for a fact. Also if it's actual a normal size hospital (not a small ltac or similar) that's pretty sad if he/she agreed to a salary like that

 

[PAtoPharm]

I met a medical resident recently who mentioned being over 40 and still in residency, something to think about...

You mean I need to consider being over 40 and in residency to be a bad thing, or are you saying it's not such a bad thing?

 

[PAtoPharm]

You've seen his pay stub or w-2? Otherwise you don't know for a fact. Also if it's actual a normal size hospital (not a small ltac or similar) that's pretty sad if he/she agreed to a salary like that

I haven't seen his pay stub or W-2, but why would he like? He even posted the salary anonymously to Glassdoor.com

 

[Nguyen]

"I wish I had listened when the posters on here told me not to apply to pharmacy school. What clouded my judgment at the time was the fact that even though the rest of the country was already dealing with the oversupply situation, my local area still had around two pages of FT jobs on Indeed.com for pharmacists. Now, that list has been reduced to literally just two jobs. From what I've been told, the graduating classes of 2016 basically served as the "straw that broke the camel's back" in terms of finally tipping the southeastern job markets to saturated status. So now, when that development is coupled with the latest series of abysmal job market projections, I realize I made a huge mistake. Even if I realize that I just love everything about being a pharmacist, I have still made a huge mistake. I would expect any pharmacy student with a realistic outlook to have similar sentiments."

We tried to warn you. Believe it or not pharmacy is actually going to get even worse by 2020. But what did you expect? It is a very easy major and very easy to get into schools in 2016. The basic math in pharm calc is simple (osmality, LWQ, NaCl equivalent, C1V1 ect) but still 50% of the class gets a C in the course. This is literally 5th grade math future pharmacists are failing.

Low risk, low reward. Low work, low reward. I went into pharmacy bc I LOVE DRUGS and would work for 5k a year. But i also live in my car and am considered homeless and have no dependents. I have friends that do insurance fraud / health care fraud / take in shady scripts / diversion and they make over 500,000 USD a year risking prison time. Are you after money? prestige? autonomy? Nothing good comes free. A pharmD degree is becoming more worthless by the month. pharmacy was hot in 2000-2004.

Yeah, a few of my classmates failed pharm calc, like literally <69% D or F. They were able to remediate the class in the summer and got an A though.


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[738177]

I didn't quit AA school; I failed a lab course and they kicked me out. Loans are all on me.

This could be a good idea. I remember reading a thread over on the podiatry forums where someone said they completed a residency that emphasized orthopedic F&A surgery and that they earned $400k during their most recent year of private practice. I was surprised to read that podiatrists could make that much, although I don't know if he had to take lots of call to earn that.

With the debt you've already accumulated, i think Caribbean is a horrible idea. US MD/DO is probably not an option anymore with not one but two bailouts from professional schools. The only way around it is doing a DO SMP with strong linkage. Although keep in mind that to make it through those, you generally have to be in the top 1/3rd of the class which is full of hungry paranoid pre-meds.
Also, don't jump into Podiatry without at least some form of interest in it. It's a SEVEN year commitment. Given your situation, the next professional school HAS to be the last one you enter.

 

[gwarm01]

It's absurdly low. Seriously low. ...

The only way that makes sense is if this hospital is on it's last leg financially and everyone had to take a massive paycut to keep the lights on. I've only ever worked at non-profits and always made more than that, excepting my very first year out of school.

 

[BMBiology]

I have been following the comments here and the comments have helped me change my mind on some things. First off, I no longer see the talk about the predicted oversupply of pharmacist in 2025 as a problem. I hope that your continued talking about it has the desired effect, which is to convince students who are only going into pharmacy for the money, to decide not to pursue pharmacy school. From my long years of serving on the admission cmte, I would say that about 10 to 30% of interviewed applicants are in it for the money. So if we have a decrease in that amount of graduates because they have decided not to pursue pharmacy, then the market will no longer be over saturated by up to 50,000 pharmacists in 2025 as predicted. And combine that with the pharmacists who leave to do other things because of the current job market, that will leave a very robust environment for the students who do peruse pharmacy school and those pharmacists who remained as a pharmacist.

Because let's be clear about one thing, America needs pharmacists. So you can't have no students applying to pharmacy school and have all of the pharmacy schools close, because then there would be no pipeline for new pharmacists to replace the typical number of pharmacists who retire leave for other reasons.

And as for the comment someone made about pharmacy school being easy, you have got to be kidding me. Using pharmacy math as an justification for the belief that pharmacy school is easy is just ridiculous. First of all, pharmacy math is largely for the purpose of doing compounding, and you don't need calculus for that. Not all pharmacy subjects are rocket science, but Medicinal Chemistry, Pharmacokinetics, Pharmacology, and the series of Therapeutics courses are challenging, just to name a few.

And lastly, there have been predictions of a need for up to a 100,000 or so more pharmacists. Now there are predictions that there will be an over supply of up to 50,000. These are just predictions. If you love pharmacy then do it. If you are scared off by predictions, then choose something else. It's just that simple.


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This is just back-ward reasoning. It is a good thing that students are not going into pharmacy because of money? It is a good thing that pharmacists drop out of the profession?

And this is coming from a 3 year old school that charges one of the highest tuition rates in the nation?

Salary going down is a huge indicator of how bad things are. Pharmacists dropping out of the profession is a huge red flag. Why can you get this? You think competitive students would go to school 4 + 4 years and take $200 k in student loan so they can make $80 k a year and be forced out the profession 10 years later?

It doesn't matter now. This tsunami will hit academia too. This is not the 80s. Information spreads like wild fire in the age of Facebook. It is just a matter of time now.

I still remember how competitive it was just to get accepted. I met some of the smartest people in pharmacy school. Not only they are smart, but they are also hard working and attractive. I knew they were going to go places and I was right.

It is just sad seeing how pharmacy schools are now falling over themselves and accepting anybody and everybody so they can fill their pocket with tuition money.




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[Shazzy1228]

ahh sdn pharmacy. haven't been here in quite a while
we are still discussing the oversaturation huh? it should be obvious by now? frankly, i do see np/pa reach the saturation levels of pharmacy soon. i left research/healthcare interest for a new interest in software development. here is the conclusion i have come to to. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A SAFE AND EASY JOB. NO FIELD IS HOT FOREVER. i can tell you now in the tech industry there has been a huge wave of people coming from other fields looking for a change and looking for a cushy job. developers/designers/data scientists/engineers are needed, but do u honestly think the junior developer is making serious bank? tech is an industry that is constantly changing and cares more for what you can actually do rather than your credentials. i do believe a time will come where there may be too many developers. with all of these coding bootcamps popping up(some are good some suck), there may be too many in the near future. for those that don't keep with changes, you WILL find yourself unemployed.
there is no safe gig. everything that is hot will eventually come down. i am saying that as a student in a coding bootcamp right now myself. but the truth is the truth. dunno about ya'll, but i live my life in TRUTH.
everyone, in my opinion, needs a side hustle. i know someone who drives uber, but has a full-time job. his company has recently starting laying off. he hasn't been affected yet, but lets say it does happen. at least he had another gig. i plan to have a side hustle myself even if i do land great gig in tech.
now back to studying i go

 

[Humble Sloth]

ahh sdn pharmacy. haven't been here in quite a while
we are still discussing the oversaturation huh? it should be obvious by now? frankly, i do see np/pa reach the saturation levels of pharmacy soon. i left research/healthcare interest for a new interest in software development. here is the conclusion i have come to to. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A SAFE AND EASY JOB. NO FIELD IS HOT FOREVER. i can you now in tech industry there has been a huge wave of people coming from other fields looking for a change and looking for a cushy job. developers/designers/data scientists/engineers are needed, but do u honestly think the junior developer is making serious bank? tech is an industry that is constantly changing and cares more for what you can actually do rather than your credentials. i do believe a time will come where there may be too many developers. with all of these coding bootcamps popping up(some are good some suck), there may be too many in the near future. for those that don't keep with changes, you WILL find yourself unemployed.
there is no safe gig. everything that is hot will eventually come down. i am saying that as a student in a coding bootcamp right now myself. but the truth is the truth. dunno about ya'll, but i live my life in TRUTH.
everyone, in my opinion, needs a side hustle. i know someone who drives uber, but has a full-time job. his company has recently starting laying off. he hasn't been affected yet, but lets say it does happen. at least he had another gig. i plan to have a side hustle myself even if i do land great gig in tech.
now back to studying i go

"cares more for what you can actually do rather than your credentials" this times 99999999. Pharmacy is a good major for *****s because one you have a degree it's a decent barrier to entry. success in CS is basically directly correlated to IQ and source code is very transparent.

 

[Shazzy1228]

ahh forgot to menton...NETWORK is king in tech! maybe be stereotyped as a geek, introvert field...but that may not help you get your foot in the door. Its tiring, but I attend tech events in my city when I can. That way, when I am done I know at least a few people who know my work, portfolio, and can vouch for me. Still planning on a side hustle regardless.
i attend the Bloc bootcamp for those who want to know.

 

[Shazzy1228]

"cares more for what you can actually do rather than your credentials" this times 99999999. Pharmacy is a good major for *****s because one you have a degree it's a decent barrier to entry. success in CS is basically directly correlated to IQ and source code is very transparent.

you got it sloth. i have heard of a few newbie techies who don't make it because of this. not a lifelong learner, creative, intelligent, like to solve problems? DON'T DO TECH PERIOD.
back to work. see ya later sdn

 

[steveysmith54]

Thanks for the advice, but I'm honestly so disillusioned with pharmacy by now that I really think it's better to just pursue a field that isn't going to be so massively oversaturated with workers on a national level like pharmacy is heading for. You obviously know what you're talking about, but who wants to hustle and go to extremes not to get a really really great pharmacy job, but just to get a bottom-of-the-barrel 32 hrs/week at CVS job? And if I end up in the position of applying to residencies because I realize that I'm simply not cut out for retail, then I'll REALLY be kicking myself for not just going to DO/Carib medical school since I'll end up spending almost as long as it would take to complete medical school + residency anyways.

As I alluded to earlier, it really comes down to this -- if guys like gwarm01 and msweph and other pharmacists are already talking about planning their exit strategies and are even pondering returning to school to train for new careers, then why not take advantage of having the benefit of knowing the direction the job market is headed in and get a head-start on doing just that? Even if it means going back to AA school...

In the end of the day, it's your life and your debt, so you should do what you think is right. You were granted a second chance to become a healthcare professional, don't take that for granted. IMO, your risks associated with trying to get into a MD/DO/Podiatry/Proctology/Astrology/Meteorology programs are much greater than taking your chances at becoming a successful pharmacist. However, it appears that when things get tough, you want to run and make excuses. Reason i say this is I outlined how to make it in a saturated market and your response was I don't think i want to do that. In particular it's irritating that multiple people, including myself, told you this was the reality of pharmacy last year. Nonetheless, there are still opportunities and tracks to become a successful in pharmacy, outside of hustling in retail. I know classmates who went onto become successful Amb care, managed care, hospital pharmacists who work 9-5 and make great salary. You come off as articulate and bright individual. You need to focus, commit yourself, and most important put in the hard work.

 

[PAtoPharm]

With the debt you've already accumulated, i think Caribbean is a horrible idea. US MD/DO is probably not an option anymore with not one but two bailouts from professional schools. The only way around it is doing a DO SMP with strong linkage. Although keep in mind that to make it through those, you generally have to be in the top 1/3rd of the class which is full of hungry paranoid pre-meds.
Also, don't jump into Podiatry without at least some form of interest in it. It's a SEVEN year commitment. Given your situation, the next professional school HAS to be the last one you enter.

The suggestion to consider a DO SMP is a great one; in fact, I was just talking about those last summer on the forums, so I don't know why the idea to re-consider them didn't occur to me. One of the DO schools that has several satellite campuses throughout the southeast (VCOM) recently started a new satellite program in AL and has an SMP, and my understanding is that students who finish the program with at least a certain minimum GPA are granted automatic admission to their DO program. If I decide to go for medical school, this will probably give me the greatest chances of getting accepted somewhere. In fact, I seriously need to apply to this program if I want to go to DO school.

 

[PAtoPharm]

In the end of the day, it's your life and your debt, so you should do what you think is right. You were granted a second chance to become a healthcare professional, don't take that for granted. IMO, your risks associated with trying to get into a MD/DO/Podiatry/Proctology/Astrology/Meteorology programs are much greater than taking your chances at becoming a successful pharmacist. However, it appears that when things get tough, you want to run and make excuses. Reason i say this is I outlined how to make it in a saturated market and your response was I don't think i want to do that. In particular it's irritating that multiple people, including myself, told you this was the reality of pharmacy last year. Nonetheless, there are still opportunities and tracks to become a successful in pharmacy, outside of hustling in retail. I know classmates who went onto become successful Amb care, managed care, hospital pharmacists who work 9-5 and make great salary. You come off as articulate and bright individual. You need to focus, commit yourself, and most important put in the hard work.

I hear what you are saying, and I agree with your assessment that I would rather run and make excuses when things start to suck, especially when things really do get objectively bad ("objective" = the profession & job market both suck, regardless of what my perception of it all is). I honestly just don't think I have the motivation to go to the lengths you outlined just so I can get some, any job. Another thing to consider is, what about the 50,000 - 66,000 that won't have a job because one simply won't exist in the job market? Do people assume that there will be at least 50,000 pharmacy school graduates who leave pharmacy school with bad grades, no intern experience, who neglected to hustle when they were students, etc.?

 

[beautifulrobot]

Do people assume that there will be at least 50,000 pharmacy school graduates who leave pharmacy school with bad grades, no intern experience, who neglected to hustle when they were students, etc.?

I think you're overestimating how capable other people are. A lot of people are unwilling or unable to stay committed to the hustle. Some just don't have the foresight that they will need to hustle in order to get a job. Some just don't know how to hustle.

Sometimes, when I am having an inappropriately difficult time making a decision about something, I begin to wonder if I am unable to make a decision because of something else surrounding that decision, e.g. am I really having a hard time picking a tie for my friend's wedding, or am I actually really dreading see my ex at this wedding and have not figured out how I am going to prepare myself for that situation?

My point, have you asked yourself if this is really about finding a future-proof job, or is this about something deeper? Have you considered consulting with a professional career advisor and/or a psychologist? I don't mean that as an insult, I honestly think you might need professional help beyond what SDN can offer you.

 

[PAtoPharm]

I think you're overestimating how capable other people are. A lot of people are unwilling or unable to stay committed to the hustle. Some just don't have the foresight that they will need to hustle in order to get a job. Some just don't know how to hustle.

Sometimes, when I am having an inappropriately difficult time making a decision about something, I begin to wonder if I am unable to make a decision because of something else surrounding that decision, e.g. am I really having a hard time picking a tie for my friend's wedding, or am I actually really dreading see my ex at this wedding and have not figured out how I am going to prepare myself for that situation?

My point, have you asked yourself if this is really about finding a future-proof job, or is this about something deeper? Have you considered consulting with a professional career advisor and/or a psychologist? I don't mean that as an insult, I honestly think you might need professional help beyond what SDN can offer you.

I thought about it, but I imagine they'd tell me I probably am just not cut out for any of these guaranteed-high-income pipedream careers I've been chasing for the last few years, and to me saying "... but there's nothing else I can do to make that kind of money," they'd tell me that the vast majority of the population lives in that scenario and that I'll just have to let the chips fall where they may.

Just curious -- when you mentioned the possibility that I may be anxious/indecisive about something other than the whole job market issue, could you give a few examples of what my deeper concern could be? Are you saying I could be trying to find a reason to talk myself out of doing pharmacy as a career in the first place?

BTW, @gwarm01 -- do you recall when I posted a response in a thread that was started back during the spring or summer regarding hospital pharmacist shift differentials, and I mentioned that a local hospital was looking at the time for evening/night pharmacists and was offering a shift differential of around $15/hour? And I asked if that was considered a good differential pay, and you said that it was actually really good differential pay?

That's an example of what I mean when I say that my local area was relatively insulated from the national pharmacist oversupply until recently. At the time, not only were the hospitals hiring pharmacists and offering nice shift differentials, but literally every chain with a location here also had openings. But today, virtually no pharmacist employers are hiring (unless you count a floating position with CVS). From talking to local pharmacists I know as well as a pharmacy DM for a grocery chain, many of the job markets in medium-sized southeast cities finally reached the tipping point of saturation with the graduating classes of 2016. So essentially, it's an issue on my part of poor timing. I underwent the pharmacy school admissions process during the months leading up to the graduation of the c/o 2016, and when that cohort of pharmacists was unleashed on the job market, the saturation hit on a local/regional level. If I had known what was about to happen, I would have just gone back to AA school.

 

[steveysmith54]

That's an example of what I mean when I say that my local area was relatively insulated from the national pharmacist oversupply until recently. At the time, not only were the hospitals hiring pharmacists and offering nice shift differentials, but literally every chain with a location here also had openings. But today, virtually no pharmacist employers are hiring (unless you count a floating position with CVS). From talking to local pharmacists I know as well as a pharmacy DM for a grocery chain, many of the job markets in medium-sized southeast cities finally reached the tipping point of saturation with the graduating classes of 2016. So essentially, it's an issue on my part of poor timing. I underwent the pharmacy school admissions process during the months leading up to the graduation of the c/o 2016, and when that cohort of pharmacists was unleashed on the job market, the saturation hit on a local/regional level. If I had known what was about to happen, I would have just gone back to AA school.

That's what you chose to believe back then. People from other parts of the country were trying to warn you saturation will spreads to all parts of the country, especially from CA and NY. You made the decision to ignore that advice. Fortunately, people have gone through what you did and were able to make it in other parts of the country. In fact, it happened to me. When I was accepted to school, grads were getting 4-6 job offers with sign on bonuses. When I graduated, I only received a part time offer... You can convince yourself that you need to drop out and jump ships. I can tell you that nothing in life is guaranteed. I can understand if you don't want to be a CVS slave. Why not strive to emulate other successful pharmacists on this board? The article that you posted makes projection for 2025. I hope that you don't plan to graduate in 2025. Anyways, do what you think is right.

 

[Momus]

By 2025, a huge majority of us with good financial habits will be more than set. Just too bad for upcoming new grads who will beg for jobs.

 

[lord999]

Nobody does this for anything but money. There might be 1-2 students in the class that aren't in it primarily for the money. And that might be too aggressive of an estimate. If it only paid $50,000 a year, the only people that would go through 6-7 years of school, earn a doctorate, and be six figures in debt due to loans would be very average students with below average common sense. That isn't in any way, shape, or form a good thing for the profession. Money rules everything. It always has and it always will. The higher the pay, the higher the quality of graduate your school will produce. You can get this entire Orwellian line of thought the hell outta here.



America needs good pharmacists. And your Johnny-come-lately, money grab private pharmacy school is contributing to the slow and steady decrease in standards for entering the profession.



No. But you are right that it's very simple. There were less than 80 schools. A need for a slight increase in graduates was created. You and your ilk opened 50 in a ill-advised expansion and made the shortage go to surplus in less than a decade. You did this. There isn't some dorky statistician at the department of labor who forgot to carry the 1. You did this. And you're damned right those of us in the profession are pissed.

I'd say you speak for your generation or yourself in terms of being primarily in it for the money. I can say quite truthfully that I was rather content to make that $50k for an air-conditioned, don't have to talk to anyone on their terms (inpatient pharmacy) or don't have to really take the work home (outpatient pharmacy), and I like to help people help themselves, and I could have made more being an actuary (if I didn't have this particular job in VA, I would probably make somewhere in the $190k range as one and I still get unsolicited offers to leave VA with greater than that offered for particularly scumbag jobs). I definitely left money on the table then and now to be a pharmacist. Pharmacy was not lucrative when I entered, it became that when I graduated, but having family in the business, this is more like normal pharmacy where there are no jobs and the work is fairly difficult.

I agree completely with the forum in the sense that it's not exactly a bright future, but it's still very workable. It's just that the mediocre employee that you tolerated for the last decade because you had no other pulse isn't going to be able to work for much longer. There is no such thing as a future-proof job except possibly husbandry (we call it farming in the modern day), and then again, farming never has and never really will be a high standard of living considering the literal backbreaking labor and the exposure to the elements. So long as you are able to learn and hustle, that's really what you should have learned in education. This profession has quite a vicious history of getting rid of practitioners who couldn't adapt. If you don't think you will be live as a pharmacist for the length of time it takes you to get there, it's probably best if you found something else to do (this is directed mostly at the students who have the doomsday scenario outline).

However, Humble Sloth absolutely has it right about tech. Pharmacists are fairly difficult to sack in the civil service as proving one useless takes some work without an incident around it. However, we fire programmers, analysts, and architects all the time for lack of productivity which is different than making mistakes. Tech is a much more alpha competitive field where not only do you have to do good work, you have to market yourself aggressively or get sacked through the stack ranking turnover. I think only management consulting has a more competitive employee relationship.

 

[PAtoPharm]

That's what you chose to believe back then. People from other parts of the country were trying to warn you saturation will spreads to all parts of the country, especially from CA and NY. You made the decision to ignore that advice. Fortunately, people have gone through what you did and were able to make it in other parts of the country. In fact, it happened to me. When I was accepted to school, grads were getting 4-6 job offers with sign on bonuses. When I graduated, I only received a part time offer... You can convince yourself that you need to drop out and jump ships. I can tell you that nothing in life is guaranteed. I can understand if you don't want to be a CVS slave. Why not strive to emulate other successful pharmacists on this board? The article that you posted makes projection for 2025. I hope that you don't plan to graduate in 2025. Anyways, do what you think is right.

No, I will graduate in 2020 (unless I fail a class and get held back and/or dismissed again), but obviously, the job market is still going to be extremely saturated by then, even if not to the extent of 50,000-60,000 too many pharmacists. Since the HRSA (as well as the BLS) aren't predicting the saturation to reach those numbers until 2025, then it's probably realistic to assume that by 2020, there will still probably be an oversupply of at least ~20,000-30,000 pharmacists. Maybe this is the wrong mindset to have, but the way I look at it is, once a profession hits an oversupply of even 10,000 more providers than jobs, every job is accounted for; the actual numbers associated with the oversupply (e.g., 10,000 vs. 20,000 vs. 50,000...) aren't as important, because zero jobs remaining is zero jobs remaining. One of my problems on a personal level is that, unless the future looks at least somewhat bright, I tend to lose the motivation to push myself beyond a certain degree. Pharmacy school doesn't seem to be so hard during the P1 year, but I understand that it gets very difficult during the P2 year, and unless I'm really motivated to do well, I'm afraid I'll fail out when the going gets really tough during the second year. I just honestly don't think I can push myself to overcome a truly exceptional challenge if the reward doesn't seem to be worth the effort (or if the reward doesn't appear to exist at all, which is increasingly becoming the case with pharmacy).

The way I look at it is, it's better that my area reached "saturation point" around the time that I just barely finished my first semester of pharmacy school than to have it hit at the beginning of my P3 year or at the end of my P2 year. At this point, I can do something else and not have to worry too much about the time or money I wasted as a pharmacy student. For some reason, going back to AA school is clinging to the back of my mind as the most sensible choice to make. If I apply now and get accepted to start in the fall, I will graduate a solid 1.5 years before I'd be graduating from pharmacy school, even if I don't drop out.

In regards to emulating other successful pharmacists, it all depends on what I'd have to do. Relocating to the other side of the country or to BFE is just not happening; I don't want it bad enough. Just curious, what did you do after you graduated and only received a part time offer? Did you move?

 

[bulldog1123]

You keep asking the same questions in different formats over and over for almost a year. The answers have not and are not going to change to something you want to hear. Just leave and be done with it. We get it, you run when times are tough. So what are you sticking around for?