The HRSA predicts an oversupply of ~50,000 pharmacists by 2025; similar predictions for NPs/PAs

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Remember, and this is a general statement, you have to be a good intern to get (potentially) the most value out of it. Being a flake and being slow-minded will not endear you to hiring managers down the road. There are plenty of interns out there who I can tell will be a joke of a pharmacist, and I say this as someone who didn't work as an intern in retail.

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Maybe I will take the chance, yeah 80k is a lot of debt for 4 years. But maybe I can make it. (sigh) don't you just hate not really knowing what the future holds for sure?

Compared to the majority of schools, 80k is doing great.

Fix your own future, start applying to work PRN/part time at independents or a chain (hospital/LTAC/etc) right now... get a year of experience and leave if you hate it. If you enjoy it, work there throughout school and you'll very likely have a job in that company when you graduate. Rinse and repeat.
 
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Remember, and this is a general statement, you have to be a good intern to get (potentially) the most value out of it. Being a flake and being slow-minded will not endear you to hiring managers down the road. There are plenty of interns out there who I can tell will be a joke of a pharmacist, and I say this as someone who didn't work as an intern in retail.

That's another thing that is making me run from pharmacy. Being a flake is something people can control, but being slow-minded isn't (beyond a certain extent). What if it turns out that someone simply can't think at a super-fast pace or mentally multitask on several different things like you probably have to do in retail? Besides the job market issues, I think that many of us might literally be better off pursuing other careers in the sense that we will suck at pharmacy.
 
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I'm curious.... how/why am I going to run into issues when I go to get an intern job? Isn't that the kind of job pharmacy students get in the first place when they try to get experience?

Because other students are involved and displaying an actual interest in pharmacy. You are not. Intern jobs aren't gimmes anymore.
 
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Because other students are involved and displaying an actual interest in pharmacy. You are not. Intern jobs aren't gimmes anymore.

Hold on a second, this whole scam is starting to look like a catch-22. Everyone used to say that in order to get a foot in the door at a facility and get the type of experience as a pharmacy student that will be valuable (even essential) for getting a job as a pharmacist upon graduation (I.e., "hustling"), students should work as interns. But now, someone has to "prove" themselves to actually get the part-time pharmacy student job that has traditionally served as the go-to job that they used to get TO prove themselves as a good worker while in pharmacy school (it's like the adage that someone must have experience to get a certain job, but in order to get the jobs that count as "experience," they must already have experience doing those jobs!). How can someone even get an intern job if you have to be involved in pharmacy already? If intern jobs are no longer the default entry-level part-time jobs for pharmacy students to have, then what is?
 
Hold on a second, this whole scam is starting to look like a catch-22. Everyone used to say that in order to get a foot in the door at a facility and get the type of experience as a pharmacy student that will be valuable (even essential) for getting a job as a pharmacist upon graduation (I.e., "hustling"), students should work as interns. But now, someone has to "prove" themselves to actually get the part-time pharmacy student job that has traditionally served as the go-to job that they used to get TO prove themselves as a good worker while in pharmacy school (it's like the adage that someone must have experience to get a certain job, but in order to get the jobs that count as "experience," they must already have experience doing those jobs!). How can someone even get an intern job if you have to be involved in pharmacy already? If intern jobs are no longer the default entry-level part-time jobs for pharmacy students to have, then what is?

Yes, believe it or not people get rejected from entry level jobs! Especially if someone more qualified applies! Someone who is involved in student organizations or has worked in a pharmacy before shows that they're interested in the profession. If one of those people applies for the same job as you do, guess what? They're getting hired. You're not.

To quote Dr. Bob Kelso (one of my all-time favorite TV docs) "Nothing worth having comes easy."



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Yes, believe it or not people get rejected from entry level jobs! Especially if someone more qualified applies! Someone who is involved in student organizations or has worked in a pharmacy before shows that they're interested in the profession. If one of those people applies for the same job as you do, guess what? They're getting hired. You're not.

To quote Dr. Bob Kelso (one of my all-time favorite TV docs) "Nothing worth having comes easy."



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In that case, it sounds like I definitely need to leave pharmacy school and do something else ASAP because it looks like I won't even be able to get an "in" at the ground level. I'm kind of surprised, because most of the posters here say that it's basically a waste of time to be involved in student organizations, and people ironically advise students to simply spend more time working as interns and not worry about getting involved in student organizations. So now, if the de facto pre-requisite for getting an intern job is to have involvement with school organizations and/or previous pharmacy experience, I guess I'm just not getting an intern job.

I knew the pharmacy job market had been circling around the drain for a while, but I didn't know it had gotten so cutthroat and ultra-competitive to the extent that entry-level PRN/part-time student intern jobs were borderline impossible to obtain for all but the top students in a class (I say this based on a hypothetical standard class size of 125 students, of which only 10-15 students are going to be involved in clubs/organizations, since it seems like there are basically that many spots available for participation). So what happens to the other 100+ pharmacy students at a typical pharmacy school who aren't involved in organizations? Are they destined to be part of the future 60k unemployed?

I'm kind of confused; on the one hand, people tell me to take responsibility for once and do what I need to do to finish pharmacy school and get an intern job (hustle) so I won't be one of the future thousands of unemployed pharmacists, but then again, they say that I won't be successful when it comes to actually getting an intern job. So why would anyone in that scenario stick with what they're doing if they're basically destined to not get anywhere with it?
 
^^^ To summarize my post above in case it is TL;DR, what I'm pointing out is the catch-22 of people telling me I need to do things like get an intern job in order to make myself competitive for a pharmacist job down the road, and yet at the same time, I'm also told that I won't get the intern job because I'm not competitive for it. So why would someone in that situation stay in pharmacy school? It's like their whole career is cursed to be a non-starter.
 
^^^ To summarize my post above in case it is TL;DR, what I'm pointing out is the catch-22 of people telling me I need to do things like get an intern job in order to make myself competitive for a pharmacist job down the road, and yet at the same time, I'm also told that I won't get the intern job because I'm not competitive for it. So why would someone in that situation stay in pharmacy school? It's like their whole career is cursed to be a non-starter.

You realize that most jobs have this issue where an entry level job requires like 3 years of experience, right? In pharmacy, you compete for jobs by interning/residencies/network. In medicine, you compete to match a residency and get a connection. Let's say if you pursue a DO and get no match. You being a DO means nothing. I've seen some DOs on the forum and in real life not match and wait while their debt interest grows. In all honesty, schools still prefer MDs. That's not to say it's impossible for you, but if you think going to be a doctor is easier and brighter for a job, you're also blinded and wrong. You may take years and accumulate more debt. Worth it? Depends on your priorities.
You also can't be a nurse/PA if you don't like patient interaction. You can't be a pharmacist either, cause you don't like patient interaction.

Just drop out of pharmacy school. You're already falling out of it. You've convinced yourself pharmacy sucks and is dying. Do you really need SDN posters to push you out?
 
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You strike me as someone who always find a way to say whaaa whaaa whaaa a lot. Always find a reason not to do stuff. Never really accomplishes anything. I'm not sure if you have any hope in any career. Less whining, start doing.
 
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You realize that most jobs have this issue where an entry level job requires like 3 years of experience, right? In pharmacy, you compete for jobs by interning/residencies/network. In medicine, you compete to match a residency and get a connection. Let's say if you pursue a DO and get no match. You being a DO means nothing. I've seen some DOs on the forum and in real life not match and wait while their debt interest grows. In all honesty, schools still prefer MDs. That's not to say it's impossible for you, but if you think going to be a doctor is easier and brighter for a job, you're also blinded and wrong. You may take years and accumulate more debt. Worth it? Depends on your priorities.
You also can't be a nurse/PA if you don't like patient interaction. You can't be a pharmacist either, cause you don't like patient interaction.

Just drop out of pharmacy school. You're already falling out of it. You've convinced yourself pharmacy sucks and is dying. Do you really need SDN posters to push you out?

If I went to nursing school, I would do it with the goal of becoming a CRNA. Sure, it would mean spending a couple years dealing with patients as an RN, but that would be a sacrifice I'd have to be willing to make. Ironically enough, I had debated on whether or not to go to nursing school prior to attending AA school. Now I wish I had just gone that route. Recently, there was a CRNA job listing posted for a city close to my hometown offering $200k+/year to work 4 days per week in a surgery center (no call, no weekends, get out early most days). That just sounds like an unreal opportunity to me. It might require a few years of unpleasantness to become a nurse and then work as one for a short period of time, but it might all be worth it. So many options to choose from... nursing --> CRNA, nuclear medicine tech, radiation therapist --> dosimetrist, perfusionist, back to AA school... it's like the Willy Wonka's Chocolate Factory of careers
 
You strike me as someone who always find a way to say whaaa whaaa whaaa a lot. Always find a reason not to do stuff. Never really accomplishes anything. I'm not sure if you have any hope in any career. Less whining, start doing.

I agree. Whatever career you decide that you want, I hope you understand that you won't be able to coast into it. That just doesn't happen anymore, if indeed it ever did.


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I agree. Whatever career you decide that you want, I hope you understand that you won't be able to coast into it. That just doesn't happen anymore, if indeed it ever did.


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Ok, so let's say that I hypothetically want to get an intern job. If I can't get one because I don't have pharmacy experience already and am not involved in an organization, what am I supposed to do to get the job? After all, in my state, I'll have to complete a minimum number of hours (500+) of paid intern experience by the end of my P4 year just to be eligible to take the NAPLEX. If someone has to already have lots of experience in order to get an entry-level intern job, how do I get the experience in the first place? I know that I can't be the only pharmacy student who hasn't held a position in some student organization.

BTW, in regards to your statement about not being able to just coast into a career, that's good point, except that sometimes, people are able to take advantage of good timing and do something similar to coasting into a career. It sounds like that was the case for people who went to pharmacy school and graduated between 2004-2007, in the sense that all someone had to do was pass their classes, graduate, and accept any of the several job offers they received just on the basis of them having a pharmacy degree. For the last few years, it sounds like PAs/NPs have been taking advantage of similarly fortuitous timing in the sense that all a PA/NP student has to do to get a good job is pass their classes, graduate, and not insist on wanting to work in one of the country's few saturated job markets. Obviously, though, the HRSA report indicates that for PAs/NPs, the party shall end soon for them as well. Perhaps there is still time to take advantage of the (currently) healthy job market for PAs and carve out a career path by simply getting accepted and passing the classes, but I'd have to act quick. Anyways, I'm mostly just musing in a general sense about how sometimes, taking advantage of a single factor (e.g., timing) can be the key to securing a good career for oneself.
 
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It's not that you haven't held a position in any organization; it's that you aren't even a member of any and you seem to have an outright disdain for the profession. Join a club, volunteer to help with their activities, get to know other students & faculty.... good grief, somebody your age should not need this much handholding!

As for the rest of your wall of text, maybe you can luck into your dream job, but that won't happen if all you do is hang out on SDN posting self-pitying bullcrap.


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It's not that you haven't held a position in any organization; it's that you aren't even a member of any and you seem to have an outright disdain for the profession. Join a club, volunteer to help with their activities, get to know other students & faculty.... good grief, somebody your age should not need this much handholding!

As for the rest of your wall of text, maybe you can luck into your dream job, but that won't happen if all you do is hang out on SDN posting self-pitying bullcrap.


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Since when is a paragraph a wall of text?

... And self-pitying bullcrap? Um, it's everyone else who is trying to tell me I'm not cut out for healthcare when I'm the one who's trying to make progress moving forward with something worthwhile (yes, even at my age). I never said I couldn't do pharmacy. I just said I didn't like the idea of taking my chances with future unemployment projections of 60k+ pharmacists (66k if you prefer the BLS stats). I'm surprised there aren't more pharmacy students who share my sentiment. In fact, another pharmacy student who's been following the thread said it just made them want to do it more! Geez, whatever. I guess the future will just unfold however it unfolds.
 
No, I will graduate in 2020 (unless I fail a class and get held back and/or dismissed again), but obviously, the job market is still going to be extremely saturated by then, even if not to the extent of 50,000-60,000 too many pharmacists. Since the HRSA (as well as the BLS) aren't predicting the saturation to reach those numbers until 2025, then it's probably realistic to assume that by 2020, there will still probably be an oversupply of at least ~20,000-30,000 pharmacists. Maybe this is the wrong mindset to have, but the way I look at it is, once a profession hits an oversupply of even 10,000 more providers than jobs, every job is accounted for; the actual numbers associated with the oversupply (e.g., 10,000 vs. 20,000 vs. 50,000...) aren't as important, because zero jobs remaining is zero jobs remaining. One of my problems on a personal level is that, unless the future looks at least somewhat bright, I tend to lose the motivation to push myself beyond a certain degree. Pharmacy school doesn't seem to be so hard during the P1 year, but I understand that it gets very difficult during the P2 year, and unless I'm really motivated to do well, I'm afraid I'll fail out when the going gets really tough during the second year. I just honestly don't think I can push myself to overcome a truly exceptional challenge if the reward doesn't seem to be worth the effort (or if the reward doesn't appear to exist at all, which is increasingly becoming the case with pharmacy).

The way I look at it is, it's better that my area reached "saturation point" around the time that I just barely finished my first semester of pharmacy school than to have it hit at the beginning of my P3 year or at the end of my P2 year. At this point, I can do something else and not have to worry too much about the time or money I wasted as a pharmacy student. For some reason, going back to AA school is clinging to the back of my mind as the most sensible choice to make. If I apply now and get accepted to start in the fall, I will graduate a solid 1.5 years before I'd be graduating from pharmacy school, even if I don't drop out.

In regards to emulating other successful pharmacists, it all depends on what I'd have to do. Relocating to the other side of the country or to BFE is just not happening; I don't want it bad enough. Just curious, what did you do after you graduated and only received a part time offer? Did you move?
There's also predicted to be a surplus of thousands of CRNAs, which will surely push AAs out in many markets (as CRNAs can take independent call and have many advantages from a hiring perspective over AAs).
 
There's also predicted to be a surplus of thousands of CRNAs, which will surely push AAs out in many markets (as CRNAs can take independent call and have many advantages from a hiring perspective over AAs).

Weren't the CRNA oversupply prediction stats originally published in 2010, though? I recall that the authors of the study predicted that the CRNA oversupply would reach 10k+ more CRNAs than jobs by 2018, but unless their job market hits saturation point really soon, it looks like it's not going to happen. In fact, CRNAs I've talked to like to point out how Gaswork actually has more job listings for CRNAs currently than it's had in recent years. Of course, that's just anecdotal evidence, but from the outside, it looks like demand for CRNAs has held pretty steady. If you're familiar with any more recently-published job market projections for the CRNA profession, I'd be curious to check them out.
 
Weren't the CRNA oversupply prediction stats originally published in 2010, though? I recall that the authors of the study predicted that the CRNA oversupply would reach 10k+ more CRNAs than jobs by 2018, but unless their job market hits saturation point really soon, it looks like it's not going to happen. In fact, CRNAs I've talked to like to point out how Gaswork actually has more job listings for CRNAs currently than it's had in recent years. Of course, that's just anecdotal evidence, but from the outside, it looks like demand for CRNAs has held pretty steady. If you're familiar with any more recently-published job market projections for the CRNA profession, I'd be curious to check them out.
It was published a few years back, but we still haven't reached the endpoint of the study predictions, so who knows- 2020 is a few years off, maybe they'll hit saturation by then. And Gaswork leaves up listings for ages and has a lot of redundant listings, I wouldn't pay it much mind. CRNAs in this area are being forced out of the state in many cases because we have way too many of them, so it's also area dependent.
 
It was published a few years back, but we still haven't reached the endpoint of the study predictions, so who knows- 2020 is a few years off, maybe they'll hit saturation by then. And Gaswork leaves up listings for ages and has a lot of redundant listings, I wouldn't pay it much mind. CRNAs in this area are being forced out of the state in many cases because we have way too many of them, so it's also area dependent.

Hmmm, I guess we'll see what happens in the near future. Here in the southeast, lots of AMCs have taken over the contracts at hospitals throughout GA & AL, and many of them have implemented so-called "cost effective" practice models, such as 1:8 supervision and what they are calling the collaboration model, so they've definitely been making use of CRNAs over the last few years. However, FL has something like 10 CRNA schools, so I imagine the desirable areas of that state will almost definitely hit saturation soon. When I was in AA school, the AA program actually lost a couple clinical sites due to AMC take-overs that resulted in practice models (such as those described above -- 1:8, collaboration, etc.) that AAs can't work under being implemented.
 
Hmmm, I guess we'll see what happens in the near future. Here in the southeast, lots of AMCs have taken over the contracts at hospitals throughout GA & AL, and many of them have implemented so-called "cost effective" practice models, such as 1:8 supervision and what they are calling the collaboration model, so they've definitely been making use of CRNAs over the last few years. However, FL has something like 10 CRNA schools, so I imagine the desirable areas of that state will almost definitely hit saturation soon. When I was in AA school, the AA program actually lost a couple clinical sites due to AMC take-overs that resulted in practice models (such as those described above -- 1:8, collaboration, etc.) that AAs can't work under being implemented.
Should've stayed as a PA dude. Experience will be what wins in the new market, and all of healthcare is sinking.
 
Should've stayed as a PA dude. Experience will be what wins in the new market, and all of healthcare is sinking.

I was actually in AA school (not in general PA school, in case you were under the impression I was) and got kicked out for failing a lab final. I realize I made a huge mistake. Just curious, do you think it would be worth it to go back to AA school if I can get in?
 
So you've already paid tuition for this semester... what's your plan to transition out? Or are you going to stay in school? What's the plan?
 
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So you've already paid tuition for this semester... what's your plan to transition out? Or are you going to stay in school? What's the plan?
Pretty sure from what I've read the plan is to leave the program. From there, there seems to be a dozen paths, each one as unsure as the other.
 
Pretty sure from what I've read the plan is to leave the program. From there, there seems to be a dozen paths, each one as unsure as the other.

Despite what I read as a multitude of bad choices, PAtoPharm is still a person, and I would hope that he could make a final decision (seems to be his Achilles heel) with our input before leaving, rather than making yet another poor choice and going $300,000 + in debt.
 
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^^^ To summarize my post above in case it is TL;DR, what I'm pointing out is the catch-22 of people telling me I need to do things like get an intern job in order to make myself competitive for a pharmacist job down the road, and yet at the same time, I'm also told that I won't get the intern job because I'm not competitive for it. So why would someone in that situation stay in pharmacy school? It's like their whole career is cursed to be a non-starter.

You've cursed yourself dude: you're 30 yrs old, in debt, poor work ethic, multiple professional schools, and about to jump ship to another. Must be hard to grasp....

But hey, I'm sure jumping ship to another professional school will fix all of that. Only makes logical sense, right?
 
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I was actually in AA school (not in general PA school, in case you were under the impression I was) and got kicked out for failing a lab final. I realize I made a huge mistake. Just curious, do you think it would be worth it to go back to AA school if I can get in?
:shrug: I'm not a fortune teller. I went the physician route because everything else had poor long-term prospects imo
 
If I went to nursing school, I would do it with the goal of becoming a CRNA. Sure, it would mean spending a couple years dealing with patients as an RN, but that would be a sacrifice I'd have to be willing to make. Ironically enough, I had debated on whether or not to go to nursing school prior to attending AA school. Now I wish I had just gone that route. Recently, there was a CRNA job listing posted for a city close to my hometown offering $200k+/year to work 4 days per week in a surgery center (no call, no weekends, get out early most days). That just sounds like an unreal opportunity to me. It might require a few years of unpleasantness to become a nurse and then work as one for a short period of time, but it might all be worth it. So many options to choose from... nursing --> CRNA, nuclear medicine tech, radiation therapist --> dosimetrist, perfusionist, back to AA school... it's like the Willy Wonka's Chocolate Factory of careers

If you get through any program first and realize OH NO! Nursing SUCKS and is not for me!
People on SDN don't say you won't make it into healthcare. Your work ethic and the personality you exude on this forum makes me believe you won't make it anywhere in the professional world. You may have intelligence, but tons of people do and make use of it. You're never too old to go into a profession you enjoy. Everyone in my family advanced in their education or changed careers in their 30s/40s. BUT. They didn't whine and complain about it. They went out and worked hard for it.
I suggest you stop complaining and making up hypothetical situations that may or may not happen. Not many people predicted the election of our current president and the things he'd do, but IT HAPPENED.
The PA/NP years may be ok now, but you are wasting these good years by taking no action. Eventually it will get saturated, and you won't get a single piece of the glory if you idle. When you actually become something, you can post here and prove us wrong.
 
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it's just mind boggling that you spend so much time and seem to know about all these other professions but seem to so clueless about steps and actions that needed to be taken to get a job in a pharmacy...
 
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If he sees his shadow, it's another year of pharmacy school?

More like he'll only make a decision about his future when he starts doing nice things for other people and wins the heart of Andie MacDowell.

Or he gives up and drives into the quarry pit.
 
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So you've already paid tuition for this semester... what's your plan to transition out? Or are you going to stay in school? What's the plan?

I'm still looking into my options and making sure I have a dead-set career path to pursue before I withdraw. Everyone on the forum says that I'm just "all over the place" with listing so many potential alternative careers, but that is exactly my point -- I'm brainstorming alternatives. Different "plan B" careers have different advantages and disadvantages. For example, if I apply to PA or direct-entry NP programs (no nursing education/experience required), that means taking out substantial additional debt, but I'd be graduating in 2019 or 2020 to a six-figure income (or close to it), well before those professions reach their own nuclear apocalypse job market scenarios. I'd also have the flexibility of working in a variety of different specialties and subspecialties. Also, if I want to increase my expertise and earning power, I can apply to PA residencies; they are just one year long, and supposedly, graduates of such residencies are typically offered starting salaries that PAs with 5 years of experience with the same employer would make. However, the debt load for tuition would be large, and I'd almost definitely have to move away to attend the program, which means taking out even MORE debt to pay for living expenses.

On the other hand, there's the option to do a nuclear med tech program. Their starting salaries might not be quite as high as what PAs earn, but they're fairly close to those of PAs who work in primary care, and the schooling would take less than 2 years to complete. Of course, there is less flexibility with this career since a nuclear med tech is a nuclear med tech, and the program I'd attend is a B.S. degree program, so I'd have to either take out private loans to pay for it or go on some sort of payment plan offered by the university so I can work part time during the program and pay off the tuition as I complete the schooling. On the other hand, the tuition is only $25k and I'd be able to live at home, so I shouldn't have to take out more than $30k total in loans to complete the program.

... So these are just two examples of the kinds of career-career comparisons I've been doing. I can keep going if you are a glutton for punishment and want to read more, but I think you get the idea. I recently started looking into perfusionist programs, some of which only take 12 months to complete and cost less than $20k in total tuition and fees, and starting salaries are in the $80k-$100k range. It would obviously be a good idea to shadow someone in this profession. Within the next week or so, I want to have a concrete "plan B" I can set in place to pursue.

Pretty sure from what I've read the plan is to leave the program. From there, there seems to be a dozen paths, each one as unsure as the other.

See above. For the last week I have simply been in the process of comparing and contrasting various alternative careers. I don't get why people think it's such a bad thing to do this. Is someone supposed to instantly decide on something else without comparing the various professions to each other?

Become a dentist.

Of course that would be the ideal career, but there's simply zero possibility of me getting accepted anywhere. That's ok, I know you couldn't resist making a joke (neither can I, sometimes).

You've cursed yourself dude: you're 30 yrs old, in debt, poor work ethic, multiple professional schools, and about to jump ship to another. Must be hard to grasp....

But hey, I'm sure jumping ship to another professional school will fix all of that. Only makes logical sense, right?

There is no alternative since I don't currently have any marketable qualifications to my name. Here is something I think people don't get -- every other career in healthcare (even those that are heading down the road to saturation) is at least WAY better off than pharmacy is right now by a huge margin, so choosing almost any other career would be a smart idea. I think this is why I've been so "all over the place," because any of the alternative careers I've mentioned could be good choices when you compare them to the state of the pharmacy job market (both present and future).

If you get through any program first and realize OH NO! Nursing SUCKS and is not for me!
People on SDN don't say you won't make it into healthcare. Your work ethic and the personality you exude on this forum makes me believe you won't make it anywhere in the professional world. You may have intelligence, but tons of people do and make use of it. You're never too old to go into a profession you enjoy. Everyone in my family advanced in their education or changed careers in their 30s/40s. BUT. They didn't whine and complain about it. They went out and worked hard for it.
I suggest you stop complaining and making up hypothetical situations that may or may not happen. Not many people predicted the election of our current president and the things he'd do, but IT HAPPENED.
The PA/NP years may be ok now, but you are wasting these good years by taking no action. Eventually it will get saturated, and you won't get a single piece of the glory if you idle. When you actually become something, you can post here and prove us wrong.

I have to echo what I said above to PharmDBro2017. Out of all the health professions' job markets, pharmacy is in the worst shape and also has the most negative outlook by a huge margin. To me, doing something else basically just feels like an element of pragmatism, unless someone just really enjoys going up against the odds because they want to prove a point about how determined and hard-working they are. Look at it like this: yes, you could work ultra hard to secure a future 30 hrs/week floater position at CVS or Walgreens in the future, or you could pursue basically any other healthcare career (for the time being), put in a "normal" amount of hard work, and that's enough for someone to be successful.

For example, right now, the anesthesia job market is still pretty good, so someone who goes to AA school or CRNA school just has to pass the classes, do ok during their clinical rotations, and graduate, and they'll have a job. But what if the anesthesia job market in 5 years is just as saturated as the pharmacist job is now/is becoming? Then the AA/CRNA students might have to start working part time or PRN shifts as anesthesia techs in hospitals to show how bad they want to get a job in the field. At that point, lots of people who had planned on going to AA/CRNA school would probably back out and do something else, but for now, those people who don't want to go "above and beyond" are fine. And in the event that the anesthesia job market gets just as saturated as pharmacy's, many of them might say the same thing as me -- why dive head-first into a disaster when there are all these other health professions they can pursue that have a significantly better outlook?
 
Forget about pharmacy and the people telling you to stay in pharmacy. You clearly hate it and see no prospect in it. I'm just stating the obvious for you to stop idling and make a decision. If you think being in anesthesia is your thing, GO FOR IT. Prove SDN that you can do SOMETHING.
 
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I wish I had listened when the posters on here told me not to apply to pharmacy school.

Listen to me, you need to listen to the posters here and stay in pharmacy school and plan on being a pharmacist, or you will be writing this same line again next year.


What clouded my judgment at the time was the fact that

No. What clouded your judgement is your lack of self-confidence and self-esteem. It is normal to have some doubts, it is not normal to second guess decisions to the extent that nothing is ever followed through on. I mentioned this last year, and you poo-poohed the idea, but I perhaps this year you will reconsider it. I strongly suggest that you get counseling before you make any more life-changing decisions. Myself and other posters can give you advice and recommendations, but we aren't trained counselors, and we don't personally know you. A trained counselor can help you logically think through your decisions, can help you have confidence once you've decided to make a decision, can help you with unwarranted self-esteem issues. Talk to a counselor and I truly believe you will be in a better position to move forward making the actual best decisions for *you*, instead of just making decisions that you think you should be making regardless of how appropriate they are for *you*.
 
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This is the type of person that pharmacy school interviews are supposed to weed out. There are so many people who would have loved to get in, and they would be willing to hustle to reach their goals. He stole a spot from one of them and now wants to quit.
 
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So I'm guessing this is the Official PAtoPharm Life Decisions Discussions thread.

I guess it was about time you would start a thread. But I never expected you to hijack your own thread in order to use it as a host for your neuroses.

This was you in 2015:
Hi everyone; I'm currently a student in an anesthesia PA program (essentially the PA program analogue to a CRNA program) and am strongly considering withdrawing from my program to go to pharmacy school. Over the last few weeks, I have started to realize that I really don't enjoy doing work that emphasizes so much hands-on patient care, and I'm not sure if I have the right kind of mindset or personality to work in anesthesia, which involves making lots of "in-the-moment" decisions in critical care/emergency scenarios. I'm actually doing pretty well with the didactic coursework -- it's just that I'm starting to realize I don't enjoy taking care of patients in such a hands-on manner.

What's ironic is that, before I decided to attend the program I'm currently enrolled in, I had strongly considered going to pharmacy school instead and had a really hard time deciding which profession to pursue. The notion of simply showing-up to a retail store every day and working as a pharmacist has always appealed to me, and I've always been interested in pharmacology as an academic subject. Like I said, I had a really hard time last year when it came to deciding whether to attend PA school or pharmacy school.

The thing is, I do realize that the work of a pharmacist can be stressful, but honestly, I'd rather have to deal with that kind of stress than the kind of stress that direct patient care providers deal with on a daily basis.

I realize that there are concerns regarding an oversupply of pharmacists thanks to all the new pharmacy schools that have opened-up over the last few years, but I'm actually from an area of the southeast that hasn't seen many new pharmacy schools open, and the city I'm from seems to always have a need for pharmacists (it's regarded as being a REALLY undesirable area to live), based on the online job searches I've done over the last few years. But even if I did have some trouble finding a job, I think it really comes down to wanting to do the work of a pharmacist over what I'm doing now.

Also, are there any other concerns/considerations I should keep in mind if I decide to move forward with leaving my program and applying to pharmacy school?

You've come full circle. Based on what you've said in your previous posts and the cost of pharmacy schools in Georgia, I'm assuming you're 100K in debt by now.

Instead of being delusional, I would work on getting an intern job and networking in pharmacy school. Graduating pharmacy school with decent grades and a good work ethic will make you a million times more marketable to medical schools than dropping out of two health professions programs. Plus you can actually get a decent paying job with a PharmD than without it. You still have to pay Uncle Sam back the money he lent you.
 
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And to continue what I wrote above...

Don't kid yourself. What is it about all the pharmacy school dropouts on these forums who think they can make it through medical school. I've heard of pharmacists and even pharmacy students who decided to make the jump to medical school. But these people were level-headed, intelligent, and hard-working. Qualities that you seem to lack. You have a better chance of moving to NYC or LA and making it as an actor than you have a chance of becoming a doctor.

Also, a note on SMP/Post-Bacc programs. My cousin goes to a well-established medical school with such a program. They usually enroll 40-50 students in these programs, but according to him, only 10 people out of that program were given an interview to enter the medical school program afterwards. According to him, only the bloodthirsty ones with 4.0 GPAs were even considered for matriculation. If you don't get into medical school , then you're just left with is an overpriced master's degree.

Just because a new DO school is willing to let you into their SMP/Post-Bacc program doesn't mean you're going to become a doctor. Given your indecisiveness, your lack of commitment, and your lack of work ethic, I don't think you're going to make it through such a program and get enrolled as a medical student.
 
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Listen to me, you need to listen to the posters here and stay in pharmacy school and plan on being a pharmacist, or you will be writing this same line again next year.


No. What clouded your judgement is your lack of self-confidence and self-esteem. It is normal to have some doubts, it is not normal to second guess decisions to the extent that nothing is ever followed through on. I mentioned this last year, and you poo-poohed the idea, but I perhaps this year you will reconsider it. I strongly suggest that you get counseling before you make any more life-changing decisions. Myself and other posters can give you advice and recommendations, but we aren't trained counselors, and we don't personally know you. A trained counselor can help you logically think through your decisions, can help you have confidence once you've decided to make a decision, can help you with unwarranted self-esteem issues. Talk to a counselor and I truly believe you will be in a better position to move forward making the actual best decisions for *you*, instead of just making decisions that you think you should be making regardless of how appropriate they are for *you*.

Maybe the counselor thing is a good idea, but I just don't think I can push myself to be successful in pharmacy consider how bleak the outlook is. I'm just not the kind of person who can push myself to work extremely hard when there will be no reward for it at the end of it all. In fact, the new expectation is that pharmacy students must work extremely hard not for a good job, but for a crappy retail job that is close to being a part-time job that pays no (or pro-rated) benefits. At this point, pharmacy school is like going to graduate school to get an art history degree -- with the education being so expensive and the job prospects so poor, you really shouldn't pursue either degree unless you absolutely have an all-or-nothing dying passion for the work and the subject matter. I just don't have it.

So I'm guessing this is the Official PAtoPharm Life Decisions Discussions thread.

I guess it was about time you would start a thread. But I never expected you to hijack your own thread in order to use it as a host for your neuroses.

This was you in 2015:


You've come full circle. Based on what you've said in your previous posts and the cost of pharmacy schools in Georgia, I'm assuming you're 100K in debt by now.

Instead of being delusional, I would work on getting an intern job and networking in pharmacy school. Graduating pharmacy school with decent grades and a good work ethic will make you a million times more marketable to medical schools than dropping out of two health professions programs. Plus you can actually get a decent paying job with a PharmD than without it. You still have to pay Uncle Sam back the money he lent you.

You sound kind of pissed off. Maybe you're one of the "passionate pharmers" I angered by putting down "your" profession? I figured it would be pretty obvious to you, but I have to assert that all the anti-pharmacy points I have made in this thread have been objective ones that accurately describe pharmacy regardless of someone's opinions or perspective. And the reason I mentioned medical school as a possibility is because when I was an AA student, I took several medical school courses and did surprisingly well (no grade lower than a B), so I'm fairly certain I could be successful in medical school, although I don't have any delusions about matching into a top 1%-5% specialty such as orthopedic surgery, neurosurgery, etc. That is why I have tried to be realistic in the past and mention decently-paying, laid-back primary care specialties such as PM&R.

However, I just mentioned medical school as one of many potential "plan C" careers, because with the current state of pharmacy, virtually any of the alternative careers I've mentioned (medical school, PA/NP school, nuclear med tech, perfusion, you name it) are currently more promising choices than pharmacy school. So sure, maybe I actually don't have the potential to succeed in medical school, but that still leaves lots of other options on the table to consider that are infinitely smarter choices for ANYONE to consider than pharmacy school.

BTW, your estimations of my current debt accumulation are surprisingly accurate, although they are a little low, sadly enough (but not excessively so -- if your estimate had been $10k-$20k higher, you would have been very close). It is a scam... even the public schools in the southeast are charging $20k-$25k annual tuition. If I actually finish pharmacy school, and that would be assuming that I have the aptitude and motivation to get through the tough P2/P3 years, I'll probably be looking at a total of $220k-$250k of debt. At that point, medical school would be a dangerous idea. I would be essentially obligated to pursuing a competitive-to-match specialty like orthopedic surgery just to pay off the future $600k+ in loans I'd have.

Edited to add: yes, I know most of the SMPs are competitive. That's why I intentionally selected a few that grant automatic DO program admission to students who complete their SMP with a certain minimum GPA (usually 3.5 or 3.6). In other words, at these schools, if you finish their SMP with a 3.6 GPA, you're automatically accepted to their DO program.
 
^^^ To summarize my post above in case it is TL;DR, what I'm pointing out is the catch-22 of people telling me I need to do things like get an intern job in order to make myself competitive for a pharmacist job down the road, and yet at the same time, I'm also told that I won't get the intern job because I'm not competitive for it. So why would someone in that situation stay in pharmacy school? It's like their whole career is cursed to be a non-starter.

You don't need an intern job to make yourself competitive (although it wouldn't hurt and extra income would be nice). I was offered positions from 2 retail chains and 1 hospital 5 months before graduation. There are other ways to make yourself competitive, you just have to hustle and think logistics ;)
 
What is an SMP?

Special master's program. Basically, if you finish a one-year masters program offered by a med school with at least a certain minimum GPA, you are offered either a spot in the next year's DO/MD class or an interview slot for it (depends on the school).
 
You don't need an intern job to make yourself competitive (although it wouldn't hurt and extra income would be nice). I was offered positions from 2 retail chains and 1 hospital 5 months before graduation. There are other ways to make yourself competitive, you just have to hustle and think logistics ;)

You've made me curious... what sort of alternative hustling did you do that didn't involve working in a pharmacy?
 
You've made me curious... what sort of alternative hustling did you do that didn't involve working in a pharmacy?

1. Networking goes a long way
2. Treating all rotations like a month long job interview.
3. There are other things employers look for other than if you worked during pharmacy school or not.
 
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1. Networking goes a long way
2. Treating all rotations like a month long job interview.
3. There are other things employers look for other than if you worked during pharmacy school or not.

Would you mind expanding on #3? Are you referring to grades and club involvement?
 
Would you mind expanding on #3? Are you referring to grades and club involvement?

It really depends what type of job you are looking for. Once you find out what you want to do after graduation, everything else is just logistics.
 
It really depends what type of job you are looking for. Once you find out what you want to do after graduation, everything else is just logistics.

If I become delusional and stay in pharmacy school, I would ideally want to do a work-at-home job, although I don't think that any of the pharmacy companies that routinely hire WAH employees (e.g., Express Scripts) ever hire GA residents. I have never shadowed one, but I think there is a chance I could be good at being an MSL. However, I understand that MSL jobs are basically impossible to get these days as a new grad unless someone has completed a medical affairs fellowship or residency, and I'm definitely not willing to spend the time/money (loan interest) doing a residency. I wouldn't be competitive for one anyways.
 
If I become delusional and stay in pharmacy school, I would ideally want to do a work-at-home job, although I don't think that any of the pharmacy companies that routinely hire WAH employees (e.g., Express Scripts) ever hire GA residents. I have never shadowed one, but I think there is a chance I could be good at being an MSL. However, I understand that MSL jobs are basically impossible to get these days as a new grad unless someone has completed a medical affairs fellowship or residency, and I'm definitely not willing to spend the time/money (loan interest) doing a residency. I wouldn't be competitive for one anyways.

Dude, the work at home think is pie in the sky thinking. MSL is achievable, but you are going to need a fellowship to get one without job experience.

I feel like you've latched on to the idea of "hustling" as a pejorative. I wouldn't think of it that way, because it's something you will need to succeed in any field. It's meeting the right people, putting yourself in the right position to get the best experience to get the job you want. You will need to do that in any profession, whether it be pharmacy, medicine, PA, software, anything.

I've said it before and I'll say it again.. if you complete your PharmD you can still be successful, but you have to accept the fact that you might have to move away from your undesirable city in GA. You may find that you graduate and have a job, maybe not.. but there's really no field where that is guaranteed right now.

If it's any help, I moved away from my undesirable city after graduation and got a job in a desirable city (shocker), then moved back to my undesirable city (even more shocking) so it's possible. Again, I had an internship that really helped me out in both job situations.. any progress on that front? Don't worry too much about previous posts, because I didn't get leadership positions in pharmacy organizations until after I got my internship. Even after I got.. well, uh, secretary positions in two groups I still don't think that mattered at all for my first pharmacist job.

Just remember that when you come here you get whatever thoughts happen to pop out of our heads. Some posters as established pharmacists, some are new grads, others students.. take everything with a grain of salt and form your own picture. I can tell you have a lot going on in your head so try not to muddy it too much with us on the internet.
 
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Dude, the work at home think is pie in the sky thinking. MSL is achievable, but you are going to need a fellowship to get one without job experience.

I feel like you've latched on to the idea of "hustling" as a pejorative. I wouldn't think of it that way, because it's something you will need to succeed in any field. It's meeting the right people, putting yourself in the right position to get the best experience to get the job you want. You will need to do that in any profession, whether it be pharmacy, medicine, PA, software, anything.

I've said it before and I'll say it again.. if you complete your PharmD you can still be successful, but you have to accept the fact that you might have to move away from your undesirable city in GA. You may find that you graduate and have a job, maybe not.. but there's really no field where that is guaranteed right now.

If it's any help, I moved away from my undesirable city after graduation and got a job in a desirable city (shocker), then moved back to my undesirable city (even more shocking) so it's possible. Again, I had an internship that really helped me out in both job situations.. any progress on that front? Don't worry too much about previous posts, because I didn't get leadership positions in pharmacy organizations until after I got my internship. Even after I got.. well, uh, secretary positions in two groups I still don't think that mattered at all for my first pharmacist job.

Just remember that when you come here you get whatever thoughts happen to pop out of our heads. Some posters as established pharmacists, some are new grads, others students.. take everything with a grain of salt and form your own picture. I can tell you have a lot going on in your head so try not to muddy it too much with us on the internet.

Good points, but I guess I just keep coming back to the reality of probably having to move away just to get a job. I didn't really enjoy it when I moved away for AA school and don't feel like doing it again, but if I stay in pharmacy school I will probably have no choice. On the other hand, if I was graduating from PA/NP school right now, I would have 5+ pages worth of jobs on Indeed.com to apply to, and the job market is probably going to continue to be healthy for at least a few more years since PA/NP schools are just now on the cusp of saturating the field. That is just one example of a healthcare profession that (for the time being) would be a more worthwhile investment of money, (less) time, and effort. Heck, even completing a 1-year PA residency wouldn't put me graduating any later than 2020, and I'd probably be making $120k based on what I've read about most employers' salary schedules for residency-trained PAs.

I will say that over the last few days, I have also become more and more interested in becoming a perfusionist. The programs I checked out are only 12 months long and cost less than $20k, and the job market is at least not as decimated as pharmacy's. Not only would I save significant time over how much longer it would take to become a pharmacist, but the <$20k tuition would be a savings of at least $120k over pharmacy.

Like I said before, I'm just throwing around different ideas for alternatives. There are just so many other superior career possibilities out there that I'd be doing myself a disservice not to consider them, especially given the current and future state of pharmacy.

Just curious, why do you say it is pie in the sky thinking to want a work at home pharmacist job? I've seen plenty of postings for pharmacists to work from home for companies like Express Scripts and Walgreens, but like I said, the main problem seems to be that GA/AL residents aren't eligible for any of the jobs. Most of the openings I've seen are for states like FL and TX.
 
Just curious, why do you say it is pie in the sky thinking to want a work at home pharmacist job? I've seen plenty of postings for pharmacists to work from home for companies like Express Scripts and Walgreens, but like I said, the main problem seems to be that GA/AL residents aren't eligible for any of the jobs. Most of the openings I've seen are for states like FL and TX.

I just rarely saw those jobs posted, even when I lived in Florida. Every once in a while I would see a job with PipelineRX pop up. I think the HCA hospitals all have remote order verification pharmacists but I'm not sure if they work from home or a central location.

1. Fellowship pay is a high compared to residency. A friend of mine did one and was paid ~70K. That's honestly not bad for how much it advanced his career, he had weekends and holidays off. Way less demanding than a residency. He skipped bring a specialist and is now in leadership for a large insurance company (after a few years).

I had no idea fellowships paid that much. That's a high enough salary to make it a reasonable choice for someone looking to go back and boost their credentials.
 
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