The HRSA predicts an oversupply of ~50,000 pharmacists by 2025; similar predictions for NPs/PAs

[PAtoPharm]

I'm just gonna say that California is in its own special bubble in regards to hospital pay and attitude towards residency. I'm not demeaning it; on the contrary, it's very nice and good for ya'll and it totally makes sense especially considering cost of living. But it really isn't the same situation most other places.



You really need to find a better source of information, cause I'm finding more and more information from your posts that are either false or half-truths. In Georgia, pharmacists on average (even hospital ones) make more than PAs. I'm not going to go out of my way to prove that with examples, but it's a fairly easily verifiable fact. You can probably check on the PA forums here. Of course, there are always exceptions depending on the type of work they each do and possible specializations. In that regard, PA does have more routes of upward mobility and salary increases, but I get the impression that you're not too interested in surgery or doing more years of school than you already have/need to. In pharmacy, it's mostly just side-grades unless you choose to go into administration. In regards to benefits/PTO, I was under the impression that these were institution specific rather than job specific. Even if that's not the case for all hospitals, I started off at 4.5 weeks, but I'm EXTREMELY skeptical that PAs start at more than 5 weeks off.

As an aside, if you work as a PA in an inpatient setting AND make the upper end of money, you're going to encounter poop, pee, vomit, or blood. I guarantee it. What are you going to do, diagnose from outside the room?

Second, there are, as of yet or at least that I know of, no official or accredited PGY3s that exist. You can check the ASHP online residency direction. It may come in the future, but right now it's just an idea among a select few people. At this point, PGY-2 is not mandatory for the majority of clinical jobs. Only specialized fields such as Oncology or Transplant would require them. I won't deny though that it will be difficult to obtain a hospital job without either a) extended experience or b)a PGY1 though it is still possible. This is as true now as it was when I said the same thing to you about the hospitals in your area some years ago. The only major difference between now and then is that retail positions have closed up as well, but you don't seem to be as concerned about retail.

You keep mentioning that pharmacy school will take longer than PA. While true, pharmacy does take 4 years + 1 possible residency and PA takes 2.5 + 1 possible residency, you neglect to mention that most pharmacy schools only require 2 years of pre-requisites while PA schools require a bachelor's (at least all the school in GA anyway). Probably irrelevant to your case, but the distinction should be made.

Finally, you may not think your city is considered a major city, but it is for Georgia. Go ahead and google it. There's a reason why your area is saturating.

The thing about becoming a PA is that even though there is a wide disparity of individual jobs (with some being more/less pleasant than others), incomes, benefits packages, etc. in the PA profession, the one undeniable advantage that field has is its job market. Even if their job market becomes saturated at some point, there is still plenty of time for someone like me to go to school, graduate, and find a job here. BTW, you're right that most (all?) PA schools require applicants to have a bachelor's degree, but like you said, that doesn't matter for someone in my situation. On the other hand, not only is the job market officially saturated here currently, but it can/will only get worse in the future.

BTW, on the topic of my area getting saturated (I would appreciate it if you wouldn't mention the name of the city/town), it sounds like you're familiar with whatever "the situation" is here; I'm assuming you've talked to pharmacists and DMs who have confirmed to you that this town really is saturated (just so I know it's not just me having an inaccurate perception)? If so, what actually happened... was the c/o 2016 really just the graduating class that pushed the job market over the edge in all but the most miserable of southeast GA towns?

That is exactly why I'm looking to do something else. If a crappy area like where I'm from has officially become saturated, imagine how bad things will be in 3+ more years. Whenever I do job searches on websites like Indeed.com, the only places in GA/AL that have any job openings are middle-of-nowhere places like Waycross, Moultrie, Anniston (AL), Brewton (AL), etc. I absolutely could NOT imagine spending even a year or two living in one of those towns, and if that's the case, then I need to do something else now instead of delaying making the switch, graduating from pharmacy school, realizing I'll have to move to Waycross or Moultrie to get a job, and THEN applying to PA school after I have accumulated another $100k+ in loans.

In response to your statement about me not being as concerned about the retail job market here getting full -- I actually started out wanting to work as a retail pharmacist for one of the "good" chains (e.g., Publix, Walmart), but as I learned more about the increasingly stringent requirements associated with becoming a hospital pharmacist, the (perceived) excessiveness of it all has just provoked me to comment more frequently on the process of becoming a hospital pharmacist. At the same time and like you said, the retail job market is now 100% saturated and will only get worse, so it has all become literally a moot point.

Edited to add: This is what I mean when I said in a previous post that as I spend more and more time in pharmacy school, I'm having an increasingly harder time finding the motivation to study and do well. Over the last few months, whenever I study for a test, I find myself asking, what am I doing it all for? The P2/P3 classes are going to be extremely difficult, and yet, what kind of ROI am I going to get from all this effort, time, and money spent? A job that I'll have to move to rural southern GA/AL, the midwest, or Yuma, AZ to get? If I'm going to put in serious effort for something, it's got to be for something more than that.

***I just remembered that we previously discussed the hospital job market in my area via PM, so now I recall that you are well aware of the situation in my area regarding the residency programs and how they accept an excessive number of applicants (12-15 per year). Ironically, it was actually the DOP of this particular hospital who told me that they flat-out don't hire non-residency trained pharmacists, even if they worked there as techs/interns, and who also told me to do PA school, nuclear med tech school, or virtually anything else besides pharmacy. Everyone thinks I'm exaggerating and being melodramatic, but I'm not making anything up; the situation really does suck.

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[steveysmith54]

I don't know much of anything about the job market and salaries in CA, but obviously the pharmacists in that state have it much better than those here in the southeast. I know it's not the case in CA, but here in GA, residency-trained pharmacists really do make only $100k-$110k to start.

Hold on a second... at the beginning of your post, you said that everything I said was untrue, but in my post, I mentioned that residency has become the entry-level standard for non-retail pharmacy jobs, and at the end of your post, you agreed that's the case. So what am I actually wrong about, besides the fact that salaries for hospital pharmacists in CA are higher than they are in GA? The other thing I said was that the time/money commitment vs. ROI of completing a pharmacy residency doesn't make sense when compared to the fact that medical school + residency takes just as long but for a much higher ROI (I.e., 2x as high salary, more vacation, better benefits).

Your argument was that residency was not worth it. It clearly is for job satisfaction, stability, and also offers nice pay for RPh. What do you know about ROI? you're almost 30 and didn't even start a professional school that you want to graduate from. You've already lost 5-7 yrs of income. Calm yourself down.

 

[PAtoPharm]

Your argument was that residency was not worth it. It clearly is for job satisfaction, stability, and also offers nice pay for RPh. What do you know about ROI? you're almost 30 and didn't even start a professional school that you want to graduate from. You've already lost 5-7 yrs of income. Calm yourself down.

What does my age have to do with being able to recognize the obvious fact that 5-6 years of pharmacy school + residency to enter a downward-spiraling job market is a worse deal than 7 years of medical school + residency to make $200k+, work almost anywhere, and get better benefits?

 

[steveysmith54]

What does my age have to do with being able to recognize the obvious fact that 5-6 years of pharmacy school + residency to enter a downward-spiraling job market is a worse deal than 7 years of medical school + residency to make $200k+, work almost anywhere, and get better benefits?

Nobody has ever questioned that fact, bc there is no reason to state the obvious. You're comparing apples to oranges. Majority of PharmD studenst nowadays would never get into a MD program in US. It's not even close. These two professions are so far on the opposite side of the spectrum, I have zero clue why you even think about comparing them.

There have been debates between Residency VS Non-residency routes in pharmacy. If your intent was to compare MD/DO to Pharmd, I think you need to go back to the drawing board. You're running out of material

 

[PAtoPharm]

Nobody has ever questioned that fact, bc there is no reason to state the obvious. You're comparing apples to oranges. Majority of PharmD studenst nowadays would never get into a MD program in US. It's not even close. These two professions are so far on the opposite side of the spectrum, I have zero clue why you even think about comparing them.

There have been debates between Residency VS Non-residency routes in pharmacy. If your intent was to compare MD/DO to Pharmd, I think you need to go back to the drawing board. You're running out of material

Running out of material? When both programs cost $150k (in most cases) to complete as well as similar lengths of time, then it only makes sense to make the comparison, regardless of whether the average modern pharmacy student would or wouldn't be competitive for medical school. It doesn't change the fact that pharmacy is a bad deal.

 

[steveysmith54]

Running out of material? When both programs cost $150k (in most cases) to complete as well as similar lengths of time, then it only makes sense to make the comparison, regardless of whether the average modern pharmacy student would or wouldn't be competitive for medical school. It doesn't change the fact that pharmacy is a bad deal.

Makes the biggest difference, why would someone who has no chance at Med school even bother thinking about the benefits of being an MD? Absolutely no reason to. Again, comparing apples to oranges. Pharmacy is a bad deal? For a lot of people on this board, including myself, the profession has been good to us. Right now it's a hard road, I will admit. Nothing new there, we all told you this before you applied. You think number of applicants and the drop in quality of applicants is a coincidence? That's a rhetorical question BTW

 

[magicgradstudent]

,

 

[awval999]

BTW, on the topic of residency, I still say it just doesn't make sense. Even if a residency-trained pharmacist makes more than $85k, they usually don't make much more than $100k, and even then, the job market is very limited for them since there simply aren't very many clinical pharmacy jobs in existence. Isn't that what led to the whole issue of a residency being required just to get an entry-level hospital pharmacist job now?

Another reason it doesn't make sense is because with more and more residencies transitioning to PGY-2s and PGY-3s, that means it will take just as long (or almost just as long) to become a hospital pharmacist as it takes to become a primary care physician, who usually start at ~2x a hospital pharmacist's salary or more. Also, I think I read somewhere that even the job market for residency-trained pharmacists is tightening up, primarily because there are more pharmacists completing residencies every year but not that many positions available in general. I just couldn't imagine spending my time completing 2-3 years of residency even if I did finish pharmacy school. If I'm going to spend that much time in school and residency training, medical or dental school would be the only routes that justify doing so.

Let's just be clear. As of right now there isn't a single PGY-3 in the country.

But, the gist of your point is correct. I work in normal, largeish, community hospital. We are looking to expand our residency from 2 PGY-1s to 4 PGY-1s and add a PGY-2 in ER and CC. Why? Because we use the residents as pharmacist extenders. More work done. Much cheaper to hire than a "real" pharmacist.

More than anything that's what is going to hurt pharmacist job growth in the inpatient setting. Not "cuts" per se, but lack of pharmacist new position growth by residents filling the space. Instead of hiring a new ER RPh, we will just add a PGY-2 in ER. Instead of hiring a new CC pharmacist, add a PGY-2, hell add 2.

Remember, you can add 3!! pharmacy residents for the cost of one full wage pharmacist.

 

[gwarm01]

Let's just be clear. As of right now there isn't a single PGY-3 in the country.

But, the gist of your point is correct. I work in normal, largeish, community hospital. We are looking to expand our residency from 2 PGY-1s to 4 PGY-1s and add a PGY-2 in ER and CC. Why? Because we use the residents as pharmacist extenders. More work done. Much cheaper to hire than a "real" pharmacist.

More than anything that's what is going to hurt pharmacist job growth in the inpatient setting. Not "cuts" per se, but lack of pharmacist new position growth by residents filling the space. Instead of hiring a new ER RPh, we will just add a PGY-2 in ER. Instead of hiring a new CC pharmacist, add a PGY-2, hell add 2.

Remember, you can add 3!! pharmacy residents for the cost of one full wage pharmacist.

When I searched for Pharmacy PGY3 I found someone with a PharmD doing a PGY3 in Chicago. Maybe it isn't accredited yet, but it looks like they are definitely trying to make it a thing.

 

[awval999]

When I searched for Pharmacy PGY3 I found someone with a PharmD doing a PGY3 in Chicago. Maybe it isn't accredited yet, but it looks like they are definitely trying to make it a thing.

I found her. PGY3 in ID. Wow.

Around $200,000 in forgone salary. Gone.

 

[PharmDBro2017]

I found her. PGY3 in ID. Wow.

Around $200,000 in forgone salary. Gone.

Even PGY2 is over qualified as it is. I know a PGY2 ID who can't land a job.... why in the world would anyone want to do PGY3.

Getting your board cert in ID makes a lot more sense.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[gwarm01]

I found her. PGY3 in ID. Wow.

Around $200,000 in forgone salary. Gone.

I'd love to check out her linkedin next year. Hopefully it doesn't say "Credentials: PGY3 in infectious diseases. Job title: staff pharmacist (evenings)."

 

[steveysmith54]

The fact that it exists only means that in fact it exists. I also seen students doing "community" residency. So what? I've seen major health care systems and hospitals seek out ID pharmacists in particular. But for most hospitals, amb care, managed care a pgy-1 is all that is needed. I think some people who did a pgy-1 think that's all that they need. In the real world, you need people skills.

 

[PAtoPharm]

Let's just be clear. As of right now there isn't a single PGY-3 in the country.

But, the gist of your point is correct. I work in normal, largeish, community hospital. We are looking to expand our residency from 2 PGY-1s to 4 PGY-1s and add a PGY-2 in ER and CC. Why? Because we use the residents as pharmacist extenders. More work done. Much cheaper to hire than a "real" pharmacist.

More than anything that's what is going to hurt pharmacist job growth in the inpatient setting. Not "cuts" per se, but lack of pharmacist new position growth by residents filling the space. Instead of hiring a new ER RPh, we will just add a PGY-2 in ER. Instead of hiring a new CC pharmacist, add a PGY-2, hell add 2.

Remember, you can add 3!! pharmacy residents for the cost of one full wage pharmacist.

Finally, someone who recognizes that I'm not making this stuff up. This is exactly what at least one local DOP told me about their residency program, although it is just a basic PGY-1. The DOP told me their residency program accepts up to 15 residents per year and hasn't hired a single one of their graduates in almost 3 years (someone on SDN who is familiar with my local program told me they heard the same thing, and the DOP confirmed it for me). I know that some of the members here are very gung-ho about residencies, but with the hospital pharmacist job market getting flooded just like retail (especially with more and more residency positions being created, but without a corresponding increase in jobs for those residency graduates), even completing a residency will not be a "golden ticket" to securing a job. Then what will people say? That those residency-trained pharmacists just didn't hustle enough, didn't network enough, didn't participate in enough ECs, and so on?

 

[Spectre of Ockham]

Instead of advocating for prescription rights and getting into war with all MDs why not ask for rights to do research ? You guys spend years eating trough advanced biochemistry and from my limited perspective it sounds like you're the perfect people to add a more scientific aspect to your career.

For the lazier ones I'm sure every MD would prefer that meds in wards (ED and ICU excluded) are prepared and readied by a pharma rather than an RN. I know I would like to see that.

 

[PharmDBro2017]

Instead of advocating for prescription rights and getting into war with all MDs why not ask for rights to do research ? You guys spend years eating trough advanced biochemistry and from my limited perspective it sounds like you're the perfect people to add a more scientific aspect to your career.

For the lazier ones I'm sure every MD would prefer that meds in wards (ED and ICU excluded) are prepared and readied by a pharma rather than an RN. I know I would like to see that.

Is that the actual persona that is displayed of pharmacists in your (and your peers) mind? Going to war lol... it's simply about saving time and the hassle to change pharmacotherapy (physically having to call you and explain why we need to change a drug/dose/route/etc). Rather than call every resident because they didn't give enough potassium to treat hypokalemia, we could just increase it ourselves... or switch antibiotics/de-escalate therapy when necessary, etc... it's just about saving time. That is why we want prescriptive authority. If you saw some of the prescriptions that we see written constantly, you would want it too. Things that are blatantly wrong, stupid, dangerous, etc. come into our office 24/7 and we have to call you to get it fixed every time. The time isn't there to do that, we have to make it... it makes the patients wait longer... makes them more pissed off... makes the retail metric giants angry... makes our job more stressful... I have to hold my bladder for 8 hours straight because I had to wait on hold for you rather than go piss and now I literally can't make the time to do it... the list goes on. We hate taking the time out of our day to bug you guys, and we know you hate it too. I wish we could all help each other more and work together rather than think we are enemies. We're all just trying to serve the patient to the best of our ability.

Research is an enticing idea, at least for me. I think a majority wouldn't want anything to do with it though.

 

[PAtoPharm]

I'd love to check out her linkedin next year. Hopefully it doesn't say "Credentials: PGY3 in infectious diseases. Job title: staff pharmacist (evenings)."

There was an ID pharmacist job posted during late summer/early fall 2016 by a local hospital (prior to the saturation hitting here) that required residency but was only offering PT hours with "NO BENEFITS" specified. The offered salary was literally $40k. I tried to take a screenshot of it at the time, but when I re-visited the link to the job posting two days later, it was gone. I guess it only took a day or two for the hospital to receive enough applications to justify taking it down.

 

[wagrxm2000]

There was an ID pharmacist job posted during late summer/early fall 2016 by a local hospital (prior to the saturation hitting here) that required residency but was only offering PT hours with "NO BENEFITS" specified. The offered salary was literally $40k. I tried to take a screenshot of it at the time, but when I re-visited the link to the job posting two days later, it was gone. I guess it only took a day or two for the hospital to receive enough applications to justify taking it down.

I hope you go into a profession because it's your dream job that you will enjoy and not pick a job based solely on salary like it appears. The pay wasn't even close to where it is now when some of us older pharmacists graduated.

 

[PAtoPharm]

I hope you go into a profession because it's your dream job that you will enjoy and not pick a job based solely on salary like it appears. The pay wasn't even close to where it is now when some of us older pharmacists graduated.

It's not just about the money; having a viable job market is just as important as overall salary figures, if not even more important. That's why, when other posters have pointed out that hospital systems often pay pharmacists more than general PAs/NPs, I have said that I still think PA school would still be a better deal, because even if a primary care PA working in a hospital makes slightly less than a pharmacist working in the same setting, at least the PA doesn't have to move 3-5 hours away to a BFE town with a population <1500 just to find ANY job. Also, keep in mind that states that have traditionally been relatively easy states to find jobs in (e.g., GA, AL) are just now reaching their saturation points, according to the latest PDI/Pharmacy Manpower stats. Within a year or two, even the rural BFE jobs will be filled and these states (along with many others) will be totally saturated.

In fact, I was just reading a Pharmacy Times article from late March 2016 that discussed how the latest PDI stats (at the time) showed that 17 states had ADI values of less than 3, indicating there were more pharmacists than jobs in those states. Now, the latest PDI stats, which were configured based on December 2016 data, indicate that at least 25 states now have ADI values of less than 3, which suggests that 25 states are now saturated with more pharmacists than jobs. These additional states become saturated in less than a year. At the current rate, 33-35 states will be saturated by this summer, and this trend is only going to continue as more and more pharmacists graduate every year.

So again, I agree with you that money isn't everything, and that's why I'd rather pursue a profession that may or may not pay a bit less in exchange for not having to live in BFE.

Consider this example: AA's can't even work in half the states in the country, and yet even they have a better job market in desirable areas than pharmacists have:

http://gaswork.com/search/Anesthesiologist-Assistants/Job/All

As you can see, highly desirable locales such as south FL and Atlanta (among others) are hiring AA's... and not only that, but they are even offering a $20k sign-on bonus to work in Miami. Forget sign-on bonuses -- pharmacists can't even find jobs in Miami (or Atlanta) anymore!

 

[wagrxm2000]

It's not just about the money; having a viable job market is just as important as overall salary figures, if not even more important. That's why, when other posters have pointed out that hospital systems often pay pharmacists more than general PAs/NPs, I have said that I still think PA school would still be a better deal, because even if a primary care PA working in a hospital makes slightly less than a pharmacist working in the same setting, at least the PA doesn't have to move 3-5 hours away to a BFE town with a population <1500 just to find ANY job. Also, keep in mind that states that have traditionally been relatively easy states to find jobs in (e.g., GA, AL) are just now reaching their saturation points, according to the latest PDI/Pharmacy Manpower stats. Within a year or two, even the rural BFE jobs will be filled and these states (along with many others) will be totally saturated.

In fact, I was just reading a Pharmacy Times article from late March 2016 that discussed how the latest PDI stats (at the time) showed that 17 states had ADI values of less than 3, indicating there were more pharmacists than jobs in those states. Now, the latest PDI stats, which were configured based on December 2016 data, indicate that at least 25 states now have ADI values of less than 3, which suggests that 25 states are now saturated with more pharmacists than jobs. These additional states become saturated in less than a year. At the current rate, 33-35 states will be saturated by this summer, and this trend is only going to continue as more and more pharmacists graduate every year.

So again, I agree with you that money isn't everything, and that's why I'd rather pursue a profession that may or may not pay a bit less in exchange for not having to live in BFE.

Consider this example: AA's can't even work in half the states in the country, and yet even they have a better job market in desirable areas than pharmacists have:

http://gaswork.com/search/Anesthesiologist-Assistants/Job/All

As you can see, highly desirable locales such as south FL and Atlanta (among others) are hiring AA's... and not only that, but they are even offering a $20k sign-on bonus to work in Miami. Forget sign-on bonuses -- pharmacists can't even find jobs in Miami (or Atlanta) anymore!

You don't actually think I'm going to read this response do you? I already said I don't care about your stats.

 

[PAtoPharm]

You don't actually think I'm going to read this response do you? I already said I don't care about your stats.

Do what you want; the reality is what it is. If you think these are "my" stats because I made them up, you are sadly mistaken. If the stats are an accurate representation of the current and future job market, it doesn't make any difference what you or anyone else thinks of them. Is that how you rationalize statistics you don't like the sound of -- by simply disagreeing with them? I guess people think I'm making this stuff up.

 

[wagrxm2000]

Do what you want; the reality is what it is. If you think these are "my" stats because I made them up, you are sadly mistaken. If the stats are an accurate representation of the current and future job market, it doesn't make any difference what you or anyone else thinks of them. Is that how you rationalize statistics you don't like the sound of -- by simply disagreeing with them? I guess people think I'm making this stuff up.

You already should know what people think of you, your paranoid.

All these stats are pointless as long as you are a good student and know how to network, you will get a job where you want. Your problem though is you shouldn't be in a field where you have to make decisions.

 

[gwarm01]

There was an ID pharmacist job posted during late summer/early fall 2016 by a local hospital (prior to the saturation hitting here) that required residency but was only offering PT hours with "NO BENEFITS" specified. The offered salary was literally $40k. I tried to take a screenshot of it at the time, but when I re-visited the link to the job posting two days later, it was gone. I guess it only took a day or two for the hospital to receive enough applications to justify taking it down.

I just feel sorry for people who spend three years specializing for a job that barely exists. You'll see postings for an ID pharmacist from time to time, but it's not like there is some huge demand for it.

And why PGY3? There are plenty of PGY2 programs for ID. Is it just another way for this hospital to get even more practically free work? Keep feeding students the idea of clinical pharmacy, get them addicted to credentials, make them feel like they have to do this just to get a job. Hell, I would have been one of them. I was preparing to submit applications to local residencies when my wife was offered a job out of state. That's the only thing that kept me from doing it. Luckily I have been able to work in two areas that are considered PGY2 specialties with nothing but on-the-job training and a little bit of personality to back me up.

I just hope she is willing to literally move anywhere to get a job in ID. You'd hate to see someone spend that much time only to end up starting out in evening staffing like the rest of us did.

 

[PAtoPharm]

You already should know what people think of you, your paranoid.

All these stats are pointless as long as you are a good student and know how to network, you will get a job where you want. Your problem though is you shouldn't be in a field where you have to make decisions.

So now people think I'm paranoid? Whatever. The stats can't be pointless, because there are now so many people graduating from pharmacy school that only a limited number of them are going to be able to get jobs, even if every single one of them was a good student who networked. It's simple math; if there are only 50 cinnamon rolls on a platter and 200 people who want one, there are going to be 150 people who won't get one. The same basic analysis applies to job markets. When the job market is being inundated with significantly more graduates than there are jobs, obviously not all of them will be able to get a job. I don't get why this is so hard to understand.

I just feel sorry for people who spend three years specializing for a job that barely exists. You'll see postings for an ID pharmacist from time to time, but it's not like there is some huge demand for it.

And why PGY3? There are plenty of PGY2 programs for ID. Is it just another way for this hospital to get even more practically free work? Keep feeding students the idea of clinical pharmacy, get them addicted to credentials, make them feel like they have to do this just to get a job. Hell, I would have been one of them. I was preparing to submit applications to local residencies when my wife was offered a job out of state. That's the only thing that kept me from doing it. Luckily I have been able to work in two areas that are considered PGY2 specialties with nothing but on-the-job training and a little bit of personality to back me up.

I just hope she is willing to literally move anywhere to get a job in ID. You'd hate to see someone spend that much time only to end up starting out in evening staffing like the rest of us did.

That's what I mean when I say that the ROI for completing pharmacy school + residency is not nearly worth it. It's not like completing a PGY-2 opens up the doors to many great jobs that someone otherwise wouldn't have qualified for if they hadn't completed the residency; instead, the residency is required in order to be eligible for the one or two hospital jobs that may exist in a particular area.

Could have been posted for a COP professor- some companies force you to post all jobs. We have several specialists that are paid half by our hospital and half by the Cop with benefits via the COP

I think it was posted by a local public psychiatric hospital that is known for having issues with constantly being underfunded (probably why they specified that the position would pay no benefits).

 

[wagrxm2000]

So now people think I'm paranoid? Whatever. The stats can't be pointless, because there are now so many people graduating from pharmacy school that only a limited number of them are going to be able to get jobs, even if every single one of them was a good student who networked. It's simple math; if there are only 50 cinnamon rolls on a platter and 200 people who want one, there are going to be 150 people who won't get one. The same basic analysis applies to job markets. When the job market is being inundated with significantly more graduates than there are jobs, obviously not all of them will be able to get a job. I don't get why this is so hard to understand.



That's what I mean when I say that the ROI for completing pharmacy school + residency is not nearly worth it. It's not like completing a PGY-2 opens up the doors to many great jobs that someone otherwise wouldn't have qualified for if they hadn't completed the residency; instead, the residency is required in order to be eligible for the one or two hospital jobs that may exist in a particular area.



I think it was posted by a local public psychiatric hospital that is known for having issues with constantly being underfunded (probably why they specified that the position would pay no benefits).

Your response says exactly why you are worried. Clearly you aren't a top notch student or the stats wouldn't matter.

 

[PAtoPharm]

Your response says exactly why you are worried. Clearly you aren't a top notch student or the stats wouldn't matter.

So now, if someone doesn't graduate from pharmacy school as one of the top students in their class, then they can't complain about not getting a job? Are people in this field officially "realigning" to this attitude -- that if someone really wants a job, they'll graduate in the top 10% of their class, and everyone else should've known when they decided to enter pharmacy school that the remaining 90% of graduates wouldn't be getting jobs, and that's just their fault?

As an example of what I'm talking about, consider the grad intern thread, in which someone talks about how they were just hired to work FT as a Publix pharmacist. Even though they lucked out and got a FT job, they said that most of their classmates, who also worked as interns for Publix throughout school, could only get once-a-month PRN jobs with the company. So tell me, what did all those other pharmacy graduates do wrong? Did they not have high enough GPAs? Should they have worked multiple intern jobs? It has to be their fault because it can't be the job market, right?

 

[wagrxm2000]

So now, if someone doesn't graduate from pharmacy school as one of the top students in their class, then they can't complain about not getting a job? Are people in this field officially "realigning" to this attitude -- that if someone really wants a job, they'll graduate in the top 10% of their class, and everyone else should've known when they decided to enter pharmacy school that the remaining 90% of graduates wouldn't be getting jobs, and that's just their fault?

So you think you should just be handed a position just for having a degree?

You don't have to be in the top 10% like I just said be a good student and network.

 

[PAtoPharm]

So you think you should just be handed a position just for having a degree?

You don't have to be in the top 10% like I just said be a good student and network.

Ok, but what if there simply aren't enough spots in the job market to accommodate everyone who does that? See the text I added to my post above a minute or two ago:

"As an example of what I'm talking about, consider the grad intern thread, in which someone talks about how they were just hired to work FT as a Publix pharmacist. Even though they lucked out and got a FT job, they said that most of their classmates, who also worked as interns for Publix throughout school, could only get once-a-month PRN jobs with the company. So tell me, what did all those other pharmacy graduates do wrong? Did they not have high enough GPAs? Should they have worked multiple intern jobs? It has to be their fault because it can't be the job market, right?"

 

[ABCPharmD]

So now, if someone doesn't graduate from pharmacy school as one of the top students in their class, then they can't complain about not getting a job? Are people in this field officially "realigning" to this attitude -- that if someone really wants a job, they'll graduate in the top 10% of their class, and everyone else should've known when they decided to enter pharmacy school that the remaining 90% of graduates wouldn't be getting jobs, and that's just their fault?

I don't mind reading your posts, but there are some things that are frustrating. One thing that really gets me is that you keep saying that someday "all" of the BFE jobs will be taken and I 100% disagree. Even in the height of saturation I truly believe BFE will still have jobs. I'm betting a lot of people would rather leave pharmacy and do something else rather than take jobs or stay in jobs in BFE. I have a friend up in Alaska and they don't have much trouble attracting candidates because it's Alaska and it's exciting but they have an extremely hard time retaining employees for more than a couple years. Then think about up north rural Wisconsin and upper Michigan and other places like that which don't have the Alaska allure. Right now those places are always hiring and probably always will be, so if someone 5 years from now graduates and they're willing to take a job in BFE don't worry BFE will be there for them. The other thing that gets me is that you keep talking about PA/NP and the fact that they won't be saturated for a few years, but tell me this how do you know? That's the exact same thing you said about pharmacy in your area a year ago, so who's to say the exact same thing won't happen for PA/NP where it's a rapid saturation. Then what will you do if that happens and the job market is just as bad as pharmacy when you graduate and you still have to move to find an NP/PA job?

 

[PAtoPharm]

I don't mind reading your posts, but there are some things that are frustrating. One thing that really gets me is that you keep saying that someday "all" of the BFE jobs will be taken and I 100% disagree. Even in the height of saturation I truly believe BFE will still have jobs. I'm betting a lot of people would rather leave pharmacy and do something else rather than take jobs or stay in jobs in BFE. I have a friend up in Alaska and they don't have much trouble attracting candidates because it's Alaska and it's exciting but they have an extremely hard time retaining employees for more than a couple years. Then think about up north rural Wisconsin and upper Michigan and other places like that which don't have the Alaska allure. Right now those places are always hiring and probably always will be, so if someone 5 years from now graduates and they're willing to take a job in BFE don't worry BFE will be there for them. The other thing that gets me is that you keep talking about PA/NP and the fact that they won't be saturated for a few years, but tell me this how do you know? That's the exact same thing you said about pharmacy in your area a year ago, so who's to say the exact same thing won't happen for PA/NP where it's a rapid saturation. Then what will you do if that happens and the job market is just as bad as pharmacy when you graduate and you still have to move to find an NP/PA job?

Before the PA/NP job market in my area gets saturated, the job markets for those professions in more desirable areas will become saturated first. That's how it happened in the pharmacy field, and even though the anesthesiology job market in some of the major metropolitan areas is somewhat saturated, there are still plenty of jobs here (even ones offering sign-in bonuses).

The point you made about there always being jobs in BFE may well end up being true, but that isn't exactly an incentive for me (or most people, as you pointed out) to want to stay in pharmacy. I wouldn't even be willing to move to rural south GA or AL to get a job, much less Wisconsin or Michigan.

That brings me back to one of the previous points I made -- if I know for a fact that I would never be willing to move to BFE to find a pharmacist job if it came to that (and that actually is the current job market scenario in the southeast), then how could it make sense for me to continue on with pharmacy school if I'm not going to be willing to go where the only jobs are? If I do actually make it to graduation and am faced with that situation, I'll just apply to AA or PA schools and that point and hope that REPAYE/IBR will still be around long-term. So my logic is, if there's a 90%+ chance I'll end up doing that even if I graduate from pharmacy school, why not save 3+ years and just do it now?

 

[ABCPharmD]

Before the PA/NP job market in my area gets saturated, the job markets for those professions in more desirable areas will become saturated first. That's how it happened in the pharmacy field, and even though the anesthesiology job market in some of the major metropolitan areas is somewhat saturated, there are still plenty of jobs here (even ones offering sign-in bonuses).

The point you made about there always being jobs in BFE may well end up being true, but that isn't exactly an incentive for me (or most people, as you pointed out) to want to stay in pharmacy. I wouldn't even be willing to move to rural south GA or AL to get a job, much less Wisconsin or Michigan.

That brings me back to one of the previous points I made -- if I know for a fact that I would never be willing to move to BFE to find a pharmacist job if it came to that (and that actually is the current job market scenario in the southeast), then how could it make sense for me to continue on with pharmacy school if I'm not going to be willing to go where the only jobs are? If I do actually make it to graduation and am faced with that situation, I'll just apply to AA or PA schools and that point and hope that REPAYE/IBR will still be around long-term. So my logic is, if there's a 90%+ chance I'll end up doing that even if I graduate from pharmacy school, why not save 3+ years and just do it now?

Sure that's fine. At no point I was arguing that you personally shouldn't drop out of pharmacy school. You don't want to be a pharmacist and that's fine. I'm just wondering what you'll do if the saturation unexpectedly hits PA/AA before you enter the market? Will you like PA/AA enough to move? And I'm also wondering what you'll do if you drop out of pharmacy school and don't get into another program (I'm not saying you won't I'm just saying you're a risky proposition)?

 

[PAtoPharm]

Sure that's fine. At no point I was arguing that you personally shouldn't drop out of pharmacy school. You don't want to be a pharmacist and that's fine. I'm just wondering what you'll do if the saturation unexpectedly hits PA/AA before you enter the market? Will you like PA/AA enough to move? And I'm also wondering what you'll do if you drop out of pharmacy school and don't get into another program (I'm not saying you won't I'm just saying you're a risky proposition)?

To your first point, I wouldn't necessarily say that I don't want to be a pharmacist; I actually think I could enjoy being either a hospital pharmacist or a retail pharmacist for one of the more well-reputed chains (e.g., Kroger, Walmart, Publix). The issue is moreso related to the fact that, regardless of what the job is or what it entails, I'm just not willing to move to BFE or to the extreme north to get a job in that field. That goes for any career, which is why I'm so disillusioned with pharmacy. So to answer your first question regarding if I want to be a PA/AA badly enough to be willing to move, it depends on where I'd have to move to. If it meant moving to at least a medium-sized town (e.g., pop. 150k-200k+), I probably wouldn't mind, but if you're talking about a BFE wasteland like Meridian, MS or Brewton, AL, then no, I wouldn't want to do that. The other statement you made regarding what I'd do if I don't get accepted to PA/AA school is a good one. I will actually be talking over the phone with the admissions directors of at least 2 AA programs later this week so that I can have a more definitive gauge of my chances of acceptance. I would like to think that even if I don't get accepted to AA/PA school on my first attempt, I would be able to get accepted on my second or even third attempt (I.e., I wouldn't think that I'd be permanently banned from acceptance consideration).

 

[PAtoPharm]

What are you going to say to them? Why not go back to your old program?

I'm just going to try to get an honest assessment of whether or not I have any realistic chance of getting accepted to their programs. From what I have been told, my former AA program basically has an unspoken policy of not re-admitting students who previously failed out, so it's probably futile to try and get accepted again there.

 

[Beezlebub]

Instead of advocating for prescription rights and getting into war with all MDs why not ask for rights to do research ? You guys spend years eating trough advanced biochemistry and from my limited perspective it sounds like you're the perfect people to add a more scientific aspect to your career.

For the lazier ones I'm sure every MD would prefer that meds in wards (ED and ICU excluded) are prepared and readied by a pharma rather than an RN. I know I would like to see that.

uptodate bro

 

[wagrxm2000]

I'm just going to try to get an honest assessment of whether or not I have any realistic chance of getting accepted to their programs. From what I have been told, my former AA program basically has an unspoken policy of not re-admitting students who previously failed out, so it's probably futile to try and get accepted again there.

There's the key words on why your so concerned. Not everyone is cut out to be in the medical field.

 

[PAtoPharm]

There's the key words on why your so concerned. Not everyone is cut out to be in the medical field.

Whatever... there are dumber people than myself who have graduated from AA/PA school (the typical "how-did-they-even-pass" people).

 

[Z-Qualizer]

Whatever... there are dumber people than myself who have graduated from AA/PA school (the typical "how-did-they-even-pass" people).

Yes, there are "dumb" people everywhere, doing lots of cool, interesting, and impressive stuff. So what's your excuse? Obviously, intelligence isn't the only requisite for success.

 

[PAtoPharm]

Yes, there are "dumb" people everywhere, doing lots of cool, interesting, and impressive stuff. So what's your excuse? Obviously, intelligence isn't the only requisite for success.

I already talked about that; I didn't practice the lab routines enough. As an unemployment rate begins to develop in the pharmacy field, what will be the excuse of the 50,000-70,000 unemployed pharmacists, as well as those thousands who continue to graduate every year? "I thought that working as an intern and making pretty good grades, like other successful pharmacists have done for the past 15 years, was going to be enough?"

 

[wagrxm2000]

I already talked about that; I didn't practice the lab routines enough. As an unemployment rate begins to develop in the pharmacy field, what will be the excuse of the 50,000-70,000 unemployed pharmacists, as well as those thousands who continue to graduate every year? "I thought that working as an intern and making pretty good grades, like other successful pharmacists have done for the past 15 years, was going to be enough?"

Sounds like we're back to, I have a degree, I automatically deserve a job.

Like I've already said, if you have a game plan, you have nothing to worry about.

 

[BMBiology]

Let's face it...while PAtoPharm is annoying, he is right.

This is just the beginning. I had posted about this 3 years ago. Just think about how your employers will treat you when the saturation hit....when is a line of people waiting in line to take your job.

This is just the beginning. Subpar students got accepted left and right and they are starting to flood the job market. Unfortunately (or fortunately), many of them don't have any real working experience. They are not really your competitors but this will prevent you from leaving your job and applying for a new position. Even if you got the job, the hourly rate will be depressed. That is how the economy work. It is all about supply vs demand.




Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app

 

[PAtoPharm]

Let's face it...while PAtoPharm is annoying, he is right.

This is just the beginning. I had posted about this 3 years ago. Just think about how your employers will treat you when the saturation hit....when is a line of people waiting in line to take your job.

This is just the beginning. Subpar students got accepted left and right and they are starting to flood the job market. Unfortunately (or fortunately), many of them don't have any real working experience. They are not really your competitors but this will prevent you from leaving your job and applying for a new position. Even if you got the job, the hourly rate will be depressed. That is how the economy work. It is all about supply vs demand.




Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app

People post on here and say that the pharmacy students who work as interns and do various forms of hustling will have jobs, and I think this advice would be 100% accurate and dependable if the oversupply was only going to result in 5-10% of pharmacy school graduates being unemployed. However, with a projected 60k-70k more pharmacists than there will be jobs, there's no way that everyone will be able to depend on doing this to guarantee themselves a job. If there are thousands and thousands more graduates than there jobs, then those thousands of graduates will simply be unemployed. I don't get why so many people seem to insist that anyone and everyone who hustles and has a plan will be able to avoid this reality; it's basic math.

 

[WickedGoogly]

all of ya'll should major in therapy analysis. Then you could be an Analrapist

 

[pharmduic]

Can't speak from personal exp. or the 2016 state, but most fellows prior to 2016 were not compensated 70K except for a select few companies. I'd say avg was 50k...enough to live but not save.
You will not become an MSL straight out of college. There are other ways into industry though, ex. direct or specialized clinical exp, certifications, starting as a low paid low key contractor. A fellowship is not needed, but makes it alot easier.

Have you seen the BCMAS examination. Board certification also makes it easier. I just signed up. www.medicalaffairsspecialist.org

 

[Arjw2]

Hi! Question for you all! Since pharmacy schools have been having trouble filling up seats the past couple years (this incoming year/last year/ maybe year prior) as well as with the increased difficulty of NAPLEX, do you think the saturation will start to gradually decrease?

 

[steveysmith54]

Hi! Question for you all! Since pharmacy schools have been having trouble filling up seats the past couple years (this incoming year/last year/ maybe year prior) as well as with the increased difficulty of NAPLEX, do you think the saturation will start to gradually decrease?

No

 

[PrePharmPoet]

I have actually been reading this thread a long while and it put me off applying for school and so I went one more year without school but I regret it now. I just want to say that many of you are being very cruel and its encouraging me to write this post. Some of these posts feel like they are meant to discourage anyone from entering the field for cynical reasons. They are just there typing to cause unsure people like myself to quit trying so the job market becomes softer for them to enter it easier and I am sure it works. Some of the posts I read here feel like they are in a "ceterus paribus" bubble. Only things mattering are a) how much job demand there supposedly is and b) salary. However, these posts never explore how much more to jobs there is and especially in healthcare but that part never gets thought about on this forum.

For example, I feel that Physician Assistant has to be the most overrated job in America or close. Its advertised as this ultimate job to rule them all and gets all the money, time off and probably bikini girls and chocolate too. At the end of the day though, there are a lot of miserable unfulfilled PA's. Concurrently, Pharmacy gets dumped on here as this job for fools who have to sell their soul and work for "The Man" and its getting ridiculous. So I want to throw in my admittedly unknowledgeable 2 cents in.

Pharmacists know they are doing good for people by providing them with excellent information about their drug needs, that a MD wouldn't understand like they do. Their council to their customers is appreciated deeply. Pharmacists work hard to get everyone the drugs they need under heavy demand, this is a drug crazy society and so knowing a lot about drugs allows one prestige and respect. Trolls can claim Pharms are living their lives in abject suffering but the reality is that they go home and sleep well at night. They can go to a party and say their profession and get handshakes and people asking them medical questions they are qualified to answer vis a vis drug cures.

No offense but Physician Assistant is a much different life. Firstly, everyone on Earth wants to be a PA now. Its becoming insane, to the point where it may actually be less competitive to be a Doctor. Just saying "be a PA or you are stupid" isn't always the right answer, its only easy to choose PA over Pharmacist in a bubble, sometimes you aren't allowed to even go to PA school for lack of experience or grades. People need to go on the lifepath they are capable of. If PAtoPharm really is smart enough to do both, they should do Doctor/Dentist tbqh. They get prestige and money and to be the best in their field. Also, PA has a different level of respect than a Pharmacist, they have no responsibility except to their patient and doctor, no recognition, they must always live as a subservient worker who has no authority to speak on most medical topics really except those directly related to patient care. PA = Nurse probably for authority level except not even as beloved as nurses are in the media/general public prejudice. Also, your profession name doesn't have an authoritative feeling and it is misunderstood often.

In my opinion, the demand for PA's is high because our society prefers to deal with medical problems as they happen and not practice prevention. Thus, the demand for doctors and nurses has become absurdly high, leaving a gap needed for mid level practitioners. If prevention gets promoted, drugs can help and Pharmacists will be more demanded, and Physical Therapists and Nutritionists will be the new PA's as far as salary and demand. I may not be entirely right but the general feeling I am trying to give is to defend the validity of the Pharmacist profession and show it still has value that is now going underappreciated.

I encourage all the worrywarts out there to go to Indeed.com and look for Pharmacist jobs. I know this is unscientific and there are a lot of repeats on there but just take the 2300 new jobs just added. If there are 46 open jobs per state on average, your cohort is about 46, you can still get a job out of college if you are willing to move away. Think how absurd it is to completely give up on your dream because there are 'only' 46 jobs that pay 90-110K per state lol. I am not SURE these numbers are real but you have to know Pharmacists are still out there getting jobs and its a well paid respectable job to boot. Don't just give up on it because some doom and gloomer is trying to turn you away. I made this mistake and regret it now I could have already been done with half my prerequisites.

Right now my plan and I think a good plan for everyone is to take your mind to the limits of its ability. Don't completely write off Pharmacy but if it turns out you want to be in direct patient care and your GPA is there, certainly yes you'll have a much happier time being something else. If your GPA is unfortunately 3.2-3.4 and you don't like getting blood on your shirt, definitely risk Pharmacy especially if its a dream of yours. This trying to min-max your life like its a videogame is going to drive you guys insane with doubt. Free your doubts and live with conviction and you will find happiness.

 

[steveysmith54]

People post on here and say that the pharmacy students who work as interns and do various forms of hustling will have jobs, and I think this advice would be 100% accurate and dependable if the oversupply was only going to result in 5-10% of pharmacy school graduates being unemployed. However, with a projected 60k-70k more pharmacists than there will be jobs, there's no way that everyone will be able to depend on doing this to guarantee themselves a job. If there are thousands and thousands more graduates than there jobs, then those thousands of graduates will simply be unemployed. I don't get why so many people seem to insist that anyone and everyone who hustles and has a plan will be able to avoid this reality; it's basic math.

Not sure who used the word "guarantee". There are no guarantees in life. Pharmacy is like any other profession that's in the state of saturation now, where supply is much higher than demand. You're misinterpreting our messages. We were saying that you got to differentiate yourself to make yourself more competitive for jobs. The one thing that you keep saying that is wrong is "there will be no jobs". As stated before, there will be a very small amount of jobs as RPh retire, relocate, or exit the profession for other reasons. A lot of these jobs will be filled internally by perdiems, part timers, or internal interns. Companies want to hire known and proven workers and experienced. One thing that I can ALMOST guarantee is if you have no pharmacy experience, you will proly graduate without a job. Look at yourself in the mirror and ask what am I doing to make myself a desired and competitive applicant. If you are not happy with this reality just drop out and quit whining. You made a decision to ignore the warning signs, now live with the consequence.

 

[PAtoPharm]

Not sure who used the word "guarantee". There are no guarantees in life. Pharmacy is like any other profession that's in the state of saturation now, where supply is much higher than demand. You're misinterpreting our messages. We were saying that you got to differentiate yourself to make yourself more competitive for jobs. The one thing that you keep saying that is wrong is "there will be no jobs". As stated before, there will be a very small amount of jobs as RPh retire, relocate, or exit the profession for other reasons. A lot of these jobs will be filled internally by perdiems, part timers, or internal interns. Companies want to hire known and proven workers and experienced. One thing that I can ALMOST guarantee is if you have no pharmacy experience, you will proly graduate without a job. Look at yourself in the mirror and ask what am I doing to make myself a desired and competitive applicant. If you are not happy with this reality just drop out and quit whining. You made a decision to ignore the warning signs, now live with the consequence.

I agree with you, except that my interpretation of "living with the consequences" is to accept the fact that I've wasted almost a year of time and money pursuing that I probably won't have a future in. BTW, I don't know if this is the case with the pharmacy job market in other areas of the country, but here in the southeast, even working as a pharmacy student intern during school no longer provides someone with a high likelihood of having a job. I have spoken with the DMs of several "desirable" retail pharmacy companies (grocery chains that pharmacists like to work for, at least as compared to CVS/Walgreens), and the DMs at every company said that in many of their districts, they had a large handful of interns (sometimes as many as 14+) but were only able to give FT jobs to 1 or 2. They told me that many of their interns from the most recent graduating class were only offered 1-2 PRN days/month. All the other pharmacy students made sure to work as interns during school, but the majority of them still didn't have jobs upon graduation because the jobs just weren't there for all of them.

So that's another example of what I mean -- if there was only a slightly oversupply of pharmacists, then working as an intern during pharmacy school would probably be enough for most students to secure a job upon graduation. But when the magnitude of the saturation is THOUSANDS more pharmacists than there are jobs, then even many of those who made sure to work as interns during pharmacy school are going to be left without a job (or just a PRN gig). Let me ask you this... if a particular district has 12-15 interns working for a particular chain and only 2 positions come open around the time they all graduate, then what are the 10-13 interns who don't have jobs (or who only have PRN jobs for 1 or 2 days/month) supposed to do, especially if most chains prefer to hire interns who actually worked for their own company during school?

 

[wagrxm2000]

I agree with you, except that my interpretation of "living with the consequences" is to accept the fact that I've wasted almost a year of time and money pursuing that I probably won't have a future in. BTW, I don't know if this is the case with the pharmacy job market in other areas of the country, but here in the southeast, even working as a pharmacy student intern during school no longer provides someone with a high likelihood of having a job. I have spoken with the DMs of several "desirable" retail pharmacy companies (grocery chains that pharmacists like to work for, at least as compared to CVS/Walgreens), and the DMs at every company said that in many of their districts, they had a large handful of interns (sometimes as many as 14+) but were only able to give FT jobs to 1 or 2. They told me that many of their interns from the most recent graduating class were only offered 1-2 PRN days/month. All the other pharmacy students made sure to work as interns during school, but the majority of them still didn't have jobs upon graduation because the jobs just weren't there for all of them.

So that's another example of what I mean -- if there was only a slightly oversupply of pharmacists, then working as an intern during pharmacy school would probably be enough for most students to secure a job upon graduation. But when the magnitude of the saturation is THOUSANDS more pharmacists than there are jobs, then even many of those who made sure to work as interns during pharmacy school are going to be left without a job (or just a PRN gig). Let me ask you this... if a particular district has 12-15 interns working for a particular chain and only 2 positions come open around the time they all graduate, then what are the 10-13 interns who don't have jobs (or who only have PRN jobs for 1 or 2 days/month) supposed to do, especially if most chains prefer to hire interns who actually worked for their own company during school?

Every response is the same thing. Why are you even posting here if this isn't your career choice anymore?

Side note my alumni continues to have high 90% job positions by graduation. If I had to do it again I would since there is 100% I will have a job knowing my work ethic.

I have actually been reading this thread a long while and it put me off applying for school and so I went one more year without school but I regret it now. I just want to say that many of you are being very cruel and its encouraging me to write this post. Some of these posts feel like they are meant to discourage anyone from entering the field for cynical reasons. They are just there typing to cause unsure people like myself to quit trying so the job market becomes softer for them to enter it easier and I am sure it works. Some of the posts I read here feel like they are in a "ceterus paribus" bubble. Only things mattering are a) how much job demand there supposedly is and b) salary. However, these posts never explore how much more to jobs there is and especially in healthcare but that part never gets thought about on this forum.

For example, I feel that Physician Assistant has to be the most overrated job in America or close. Its advertised as this ultimate job to rule them all and gets all the money, time off and probably bikini girls and chocolate too. At the end of the day though, there are a lot of miserable unfulfilled PA's. Concurrently, Pharmacy gets dumped on here as this job for fools who have to sell their soul and work for "The Man" and its getting ridiculous. So I want to throw in my admittedly unknowledgeable 2 cents in.

Pharmacists know they are doing good for people by providing them with excellent information about their drug needs, that a MD wouldn't understand like they do. Their council to their customers is appreciated deeply. Pharmacists work hard to get everyone the drugs they need under heavy demand, this is a drug crazy society and so knowing a lot about drugs allows one prestige and respect. Trolls can claim Pharms are living their lives in abject suffering but the reality is that they go home and sleep well at night. They can go to a party and say their profession and get handshakes and people asking them medical questions they are qualified to answer vis a vis drug cures.

No offense but Physician Assistant is a much different life. Firstly, everyone on Earth wants to be a PA now. Its becoming insane, to the point where it may actually be less competitive to be a Doctor. Just saying "be a PA or you are stupid" isn't always the right answer, its only easy to choose PA over Pharmacist in a bubble, sometimes you aren't allowed to even go to PA school for lack of experience or grades. People need to go on the lifepath they are capable of. If PAtoPharm really is smart enough to do both, they should do Doctor/Dentist tbqh. They get prestige and money and to be the best in their field. Also, PA has a different level of respect than a Pharmacist, they have no responsibility except to their patient and doctor, no recognition, they must always live as a subservient worker who has no authority to speak on most medical topics really except those directly related to patient care. PA = Nurse probably for authority level except not even as beloved as nurses are in the media/general public prejudice. Also, your profession name doesn't have an authoritative feeling and it is misunderstood often.

In my opinion, the demand for PA's is high because our society prefers to deal with medical problems as they happen and not practice prevention. Thus, the demand for doctors and nurses has become absurdly high, leaving a gap needed for mid level practitioners. If prevention gets promoted, drugs can help and Pharmacists will be more demanded, and Physical Therapists and Nutritionists will be the new PA's as far as salary and demand. I may not be entirely right but the general feeling I am trying to give is to defend the validity of the Pharmacist profession and show it still has value that is now going underappreciated.

I encourage all the worrywarts out there to go to Indeed.com and look for Pharmacist jobs. I know this is unscientific and there are a lot of repeats on there but just take the 2300 new jobs just added. If there are 46 open jobs per state on average, your cohort is about 46, you can still get a job out of college if you are willing to move away. Think how absurd it is to completely give up on your dream because there are 'only' 46 jobs that pay 90-110K per state lol. I am not SURE these numbers are real but you have to know Pharmacists are still out there getting jobs and its a well paid respectable job to boot. Don't just give up on it because some doom and gloomer is trying to turn you away. I made this mistake and regret it now I could have already been done with half my prerequisites.

Right now my plan and I think a good plan for everyone is to take your mind to the limits of its ability. Don't completely write off Pharmacy but if it turns out you want to be in direct patient care and your GPA is there, certainly yes you'll have a much happier time being something else. If your GPA is unfortunately 3.2-3.4 and you don't like getting blood on your shirt, definitely risk Pharmacy especially if its a dream of yours. This trying to min-max your life like its a videogame is going to drive you guys insane with doubt. Free your doubts and live with conviction and you will find happiness.

Pharmacy was the best choice I ever made and my family agrees.

 

[DrfluffyMD]

Just want to chime in from an MD's prospective.

1. All PAs act as physician extenders. It means they often deal with work that attending physicians sometimes don't want to to deal with. Examples like rectal exams, changing pus drain lines, etc. Think about it, why should we hire extenders to do things that we have to /love to do ourselves?

2. I supervise PAs, though some PAs who have spent their entire career doing one thing have perfected their craft and I learn from them, most of the new PAs need a lot of supervision.

On the other hand, I listen to pharmacist as the expert in their field because they are. There is definitely a big difference in my attitude from the get go that doesn't change until as a PA you prove that you are able to become the expert of your field 40 years later.

3. For the poster that's contemplating dropping out, I don't think DO or MD is in your cards because the prior histories of failing out/ quitting programs. Sorry.