The Investment Thread (stocks, bonds, real estate, retirement, just not gold)

[Momus]

Not get rich quick, get rich quicker than an index fund. Don't need to tell my friends and family about it because they won't listen to me either, but they are missing out. -It has been a very fruitful period the last few years. Just look at the NAK investment post I put up recently-- it has gone way way up. As well as the NVDA post I made when it was still 80. Ride the trend when it is your friend and you can play up markets, down markets, and even sideways markets.

No one cares, you are still here. You aren't rich enough yet.

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[MatCauthon]

No one cares, you are still here. You aren't rich enough yet.

You wouldn't care even if I was rich. There is no plan that gets you rich overnight. I only want to combat some of the prevailing bias that says that index funds are the only way to invest your money for a long-term profit. That simply isn't true.

 

[MatCauthon]

Post some calls over the next week and let's see your results ;-)

These are all of my current swing positions and long-term positions (remember that these reflect only my winners, I actively prune out losing stockers before they become big losers):
1. NAK: entered at .85 and added on at 1.45 and again at 2.12 today. See my earlier post about this, huge growth potential now that Donald Trump is in office. I will probably take some profits on this soon. I keep trading around this -- expect it to keep going higher with some dips along the way. It could have an explosion once Trump's EPA head is announced. I am honestly hoping to get $5 on this and hopefully over $10 but have to prepare for all potential outcomes.
2. VCEL (biotech company recently approved for MACI, stem-cell cartilage regrowth method for the knee)-- entered at 3.05 last week. I am planning on holding this until at least $5. But fundamentally this stock looks good to 6-8. I was slightly underwater on this until today. There was a recent dilution after the FDA approval-- I believe the dilution is over and this stock should fly soon.
3. IONS: (recently approved for spinraza, first drug approved for spinal muscular atrophy )-- entered at 35, added on at 48, added on again at 52. Took half my position off at 56.50 today, planning on holding the rest long-term. Ions looks to be one of the major upcoming bio-pharm companies. I also had some call options that I bought at 51.00 last week in anticipation of Spinraza approval, I took half of them off today at 56.

These are all of my swing positions. I stopped out with 8% loss on GSAT today which recently received FCC approval for a certain airwave frequency. Keeping a small but focused stock portfolio has always been an important goal if you want to get outsized returns. Diversification is for ETFs and index funds (which I do use!). However, I almost never put more than 10-15% of my capital in any one position. I go for a lot of small wins in the 15-20% range, and try to keep my losses no more than 7-10%, but I do actively look for the monster momentum stocks that hit 50% plus.
Everyday I look f0r new momentum movers and I always try to have a portion of account available to trade. Biotech and earnings winners are my specialty.

 

[wagrxm2000]

This guy is either going to be working his whole life or he's simply playing with chump change. I'd like to see him invest 100k into a biotech stock that doesn't get approval and he loses 30k in one day. If it's simply 1k, who really cares, you aren't making anything.

Don't follow this kids, its gambling, more biotech stocks fail then soar.

 

[BMBiology]

This guy is either going to be working his whole life or he's simply playing with chump change. I'd like to see him invest 100k into a biotech stock that doesn't get approval and he loses 30k in one day. If it's simply 1k, who really cares, you aren't making anything.

Don't follow this kids, its gambling, more biotech stocks fail then soar.

People like to talk about their winners, rarely talk about their losers.

I have posted my trades. I have some extra cash. That is why I buy individual stocks but it is hard to beat the market constantly


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app

 

[MatCauthon]

People like to talk about their winners, rarely talk about their losers.

I have posted my trades. I have some extra cash. That is why I buy individual stocks but it is hard to beat the market constantly


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app

I posted my losing trades too-- I took a 35% loss on RIGL which equated to 7k loss for me. I'm not trading for peanuts, I held too long into a trial window and I took a big hit for it. However, I've been able to avoid the bigger losses such as NVAX's notorious 80% downday after trial failure. I don't hold into trials and drug approval news. I play after the news is announced. That is the key. On the right companies there can be enormous intraday run-ups-- Akao had a 300% rise after their phase III antibiotic success this month. I was able to catch 90% of that move. Usually I look for 15%-20% moves, but they can be much higher than on the right setup. If anybody wants to know learn more, PM me (and no I'm not selling anything). My wins have been able to easily absorb my losses, even my occasional big losses (can't always avoid them but can always learn from them).
Not saying too much more as I don't think most of the audience here is receptive to trend trading and momentum trading. But the two bible books for this are 'Trend Following' by Michael Covel and 'How to make money in stocks' by William O'neil.

 

[Carol is Alpha]

https://econimica.blogspot.com/2016/12/when-this-bubble-popsdont-expect-to-see.html

 

[wagrxm2000]

I posted my losing trades too-- I took a 35% loss on RIGL which equated to 7k loss for me. I'm not trading for peanuts, I held too long into a trial window and I took a big hit for it. However, I've been able to avoid the bigger losses such as NVAX's notorious 80% downday after trial failure. I don't hold into trials and drug approval news. I play after the news is announced. That is the key. On the right companies there can be enormous intraday run-ups-- Akao had a 300% rise after their phase III antibiotic success this month. I was able to catch 90% of that move. Usually I look for 15%-20% moves, but they can be much higher than on the right setup. If anybody wants to know learn more, PM me (and no I'm not selling anything). My wins have been able to easily absorb my losses, even my occasional big losses (can't always avoid them but can always learn from them).
Not saying too much more as I don't think most of the audience here is receptive to trend trading and momentum trading. But the two bible books for this are 'Trend Following' by Michael Covel and 'How to make money in stocks' by William O'neil.

So you lost 3 weeks pay, while not complete peanuts that's barely more then what I make in my much safer trades where I won't lose 30% in one day in my vacation trading account. (My average trade makes about $5k over a much longer period) A pharmacist won't lose sleep over that.

When you lose 35k, on a 100k "bet" then you are trading more then peanuts as a pharmacist. (Yes I've had that much in one stock before)

This isn't so much about the audience not being receptive its more about a higher percentage will fail when gambling like this. Otherwise, everyone would do it.

If you want to post your ideas I will always appreciate it and do my own research but don't come telling people you make 30% annually this way.

 

[Carol is Alpha]

You know that says something about the working conditions one is under. What amount of lost sweat and toil would make a pharmacist squeal? 3 weeks of lost wages would not make me happy, not if I measure the wages in the physical pain & suffering of the Walgreens Death March. The recalcitrant fever, headaches due to lack of sleep , bronchitis due to mold in the vents, dehydration due to thermostat set too high, sore backs, hips, knees, achilles tendons from working like a machine nonstop, IBS and Cushing's moonface due to stress, and even sore guts. Yes, sore guts, the diaphragm and mesentery strained from hyperventilating and just overall working like a slave for the corporate polesmokers.

If your work situation is all sunshine, lollipops, and puppy dogs then yeah, I guess three weeks is no big deal. But for some of us, one day wages lost would make us wince.

Let's hear what are the squeal points of others. Retail chain, hospital, nuclear, LTC, etc.

 

[Carol is Alpha]

"Pollock also predicts a “9% yield on the 10-year Treasury, and it will happen sooner than you think.” Pollock also contends that the real estate markets in the so-called blue states are “75% overvalued” and will crash in the next recession. That, too, according to Pollock, will happen sooner than you think."


"The Clintons just totally ignored that olive branch, and they are going to impede his progress at every turn. Therefore, he has no choice . . . and he has to kill one of these large players. . . . He needs to make an example of someone large so the nipping goes away. . . . If they won’t shut up and let him do his job, then he has to kill them, and kill them he will because he won’t leave them wounded. If the Clintons are wounded, then there is nothing stopping them from coming back at him."

“I have to win this now, and for all time, or I’ll fight it every day and it will get worse and worse.” Ender Wiggin of his fight with Stilson

 

[wagrxm2000]

"Pollock also predicts a “9% yield on the 10-year Treasury, and it will happen sooner than you think.” Pollock also contends that the real estate markets in the so-called blue states are “75% overvalued” and will crash in the next recession. That, too, according to Pollock, will happen sooner than you think.".


"The Clintons just totally ignored that olive branch, and they are going to impede his progress at every turn. Therefore, he has no choice . . . and he has to kill one of these large players. . . . He needs to make an example of someone large so the nipping goes away. . . . If they won’t shut up and let him do his job, then he has to kill them, and kill them he will because he won’t leave them wounded. If the Clintons are wounded, then there is nothing stopping them from coming back at him."
.
“I have to win this now, and for all time, or I’ll fight it every day and it will get worse and worse.” Ender Wiggin of his fight with Stilson

.

Why do you continue to post this stuff when no one ever responds?

 

[Carol is Alpha]

Pet rock stawks are telling us something.

 

[Carol is Alpha]

http://seekingalpha.com/article/403...king-system-will-metastasize-globally?page=2#

The author lays out a case for a gradual adjustment over a decade. I'm not so sure about that. Can the Chinese people tolerate an inflationary surge without political strife? This is go to be a mess. This game of competitive devaluation has run its course.

 

[wagrxm2000]

These are all of my current swing positions and long-term positions (remember that these reflect only my winners, I actively prune out losing stockers before they become big losers):
1. NAK: entered at .85 and added on at 1.45 and again at 2.12 today. See my earlier post about this, huge growth potential now that Donald Trump is in office. I will probably take some profits on this soon. I keep trading around this -- expect it to keep going higher with some dips along the way. It could have an explosion once Trump's EPA head is announced. I am honestly hoping to get $5 on this and hopefully over $10 but have to prepare for all potential outcomes.
2. VCEL (biotech company recently approved for MACI, stem-cell cartilage regrowth method for the knee)-- entered at 3.05 last week. I am planning on holding this until at least $5. But fundamentally this stock looks good to 6-8. I was slightly underwater on this until today. There was a recent dilution after the FDA approval-- I believe the dilution is over and this stock should fly soon.
3. IONS: (recently approved for spinraza, first drug approved for spinal muscular atrophy )-- entered at 35, added on at 48, added on again at 52. Took half my position off at 56.50 today, planning on holding the rest long-term. Ions looks to be one of the major upcoming bio-pharm companies. I also had some call options that I bought at 51.00 last week in anticipation of Spinraza approval, I took half of them off today at 56.

These are all of my swing positions. I stopped out with 8% loss on GSAT today which recently received FCC approval for a certain airwave frequency. Keeping a small but focused stock portfolio has always been an important goal if you want to get outsized returns. Diversification is for ETFs and index funds (which I do use!). However, I almost never put more than 10-15% of my capital in any one position. I go for a lot of small wins in the 15-20% range, and try to keep my losses no more than 7-10%, but I do actively look for the monster momentum stocks that hit 50% plus.
Everyday I look f0r new momentum movers and I always try to have a portion of account available to trade. Biotech and earnings winners are my specialty.

I've watched nak now for a few days and that is simply too volatile for any average investor. Your pretty much buying a 3x gold fund with the moves I've seen, like 10% down, 5%, up, now 5% down again. Your going to get yourself stuck possibly if you jump in now.

 

[RX CARE]

Hey guys check out the new brokerage firm launched by tastytrade and thinkorswim founders called tastyworks. The commission rates are spectacular, and they are also launching a unique revolutionary trading platform.
You can begin signing up on January 3rd. Futures and futures options will be available starting March 1st.

https://www.tastytrade.com/tt/tastyworks

 

[MatCauthon]

Hey guys check out the new brokerage firm launched by tastytrade and thinkorswim founders called tastyworks. The commission rates are spectacular, and they are also launching a unique revolutionary trading platform.
You can begin signing up on January 3rd. Futures and futures options will be available starting March 1st.

https://www.tastytrade.com/tt/tastyworks



View attachment 212944

I might give this a try. I've been trading options for a couple years now and these rates are great. The no closing commission cost (except clearing fees is great). Now I can scale out profits in very small allotments without worrying about enormous commissions. However, I believe interactive brokers is already pretty competitive on most of these rates and I may setup a second account there because they have more shores available for shorting.

 

[pezdispenser]

Does anyone think the backdoor Roth will be eliminated for 2017?

 

[PharmDBro2017]

Strong jump in Tesla today.

 

[wagrxm2000]

These are all of my current swing positions and long-term positions (remember that these reflect only my winners, I actively prune out losing stockers before they become big losers):
1. NAK: entered at .85 and added on at 1.45 and again at 2.12 today. See my earlier post about this, huge growth potential now that Donald Trump is in office. I will probably take some profits on this soon. I keep trading around this -- expect it to keep going higher with some dips along the way. It could have an explosion once Trump's EPA head is announced. I am honestly hoping to get $5 on this and hopefully over $10 but have to prepare for all potential outcomes.
2. VCEL (biotech company recently approved for MACI, stem-cell cartilage regrowth method for the knee)-- entered at 3.05 last week. I am planning on holding this until at least $5. But fundamentally this stock looks good to 6-8. I was slightly underwater on this until today. There was a recent dilution after the FDA approval-- I believe the dilution is over and this stock should fly soon.
3. IONS: (recently approved for spinraza, first drug approved for spinal muscular atrophy )-- entered at 35, added on at 48, added on again at 52. Took half my position off at 56.50 today, planning on holding the rest long-term. Ions looks to be one of the major upcoming bio-pharm companies. I also had some call options that I bought at 51.00 last week in anticipation of Spinraza approval, I took half of them off today at 56.

These are all of my swing positions. I stopped out with 8% loss on GSAT today which recently received FCC approval for a certain airwave frequency. Keeping a small but focused stock portfolio has always been an important goal if you want to get outsized returns. Diversification is for ETFs and index funds (which I do use!). However, I almost never put more than 10-15% of my capital in any one position. I go for a lot of small wins in the 15-20% range, and try to keep my losses no more than 7-10%, but I do actively look for the monster momentum stocks that hit 50% plus.
Everyday I look f0r new momentum movers and I always try to have a portion of account available to trade. Biotech and earnings winners are my specialty.

So is this a bump with NAK, are you buying more or getting out. I'm so curious what decisions gamblers make.

 

[pezdispenser]

Does anyone think the backdoor Roth will be eliminated for 2017?

Ok I guess I'll be the guinea pig then. I just completed my backdoor Roth with Vanguard. Will wait and see if I have to undo it.

 

[wagrxm2000]

Ok I guess I'll be the guinea pig then. I just completed my backdoor Roth with Vanguard. Will wait and see if I have to undo it.

Are you expecting your taxes to be higher during retirement. If not, what's your reasoning behind using a roth?

 

[MatCauthon]

So is this a bump with NAK, are you buying more or getting out. I'm so curious what decisions gamblers make.

See the chart of NAK below that is highlighted. If you see my past threads, I have documented how I had put (at one time) a 3rd of my account into this stock after the election. That was back under $1. I took half of that off in the 2's so I am playing with a free position now. Everything else for me on NAK is an add-on trade. The chart of NAK has been very predictable thus far. I highlight my 5 buys below all at support levels: 0.85, 0.90, 1.18, 1.55, and 1.80. I am still holding part of the 0.85 and .90 position, but I cashed half out at 2.10. All the other positions, except the 1.80 position, have already been closed out near whole round numbers like 1.50, 2.00, ect. This has been very successful, but you have to understand that I target big winners and play them heavily. Since I have been successful with NAK I keep going back to it. Don't know what the future holds, but it still looks bright, just look at how bullish the candle was on NAK yesterday-- all the dips are getting bought up quickly.

The current resistance is $2.50. NAK is still very much in play but I would only buy in on dip or carefully timed breakouts. I will close half of my 1.80 position at 2.45 or so and see if we can get a break to 3. If not I will close the other half. Most of my positions are 5-10% of my account and I look to stop out if they go 5-7% below my buy-point. So I don't lose sleep over this. Even if I lost 100% of my position (never happened before) I wouldn't lose that much sleep. While my initial positions are 5-10%, I start adding on to my big winners. That is the key, I am willing to funnel as much of 20-25% into a big winner. But I take profits along the way. The ultimate goal is a free ride like I had with NAK. I also had a free ride with NVDA which I foolishly closed out too early at 100. Most stocks are only good for 20% or so profits, but it is fun to try to find the life-changing stocks can have multibagger potential.

To answer your earlier question about JNUG, I do not have much experience with leveraged ETFs. However I am very hesitant to buy them. They are day-trade only since they are only calibrated to daily movements of GDXJ. Everything else is then reset and there is major slippage potential. I held non-leveraged ETFs in my retirement account extensively, but non-leveraged ETFs are much safer. JNUG is nothing like NAK other than they are both high-volatility plays on gold.
With NAK I can at least hold my money for a period of time without worrying about getting it hacked down by slippage, fees, end-of-day rebalancing, etc.

Lastly, while I do play penny stocks, most of the penny stocks I play are only for day-trades or short periods of time. When I really invest my money, for longer periods of time I try to put it into stocks with multi-bagger potential. Investors.com is one of my favorite resources and if you haven't read 'How to make money in stocks' it is my favorite stock-trading book.

 

[pezdispenser]

Are you expecting your taxes to be higher during retirement. If not, what's your reasoning behind using a roth?

I don't even think about it from that point of view. I save and invest so much more ($70k) than I spend (mortgage paid off so it's deceptively low at $30k), so I just max out $18k 401k and $5,500 Roth IRA because it becomes a choice between those tax advantaged accounts or fully taxable investing. Plus I do all my individual stock trading (very tax inefficient) inside my Roth IRA so it's tax free and I don't have to worry about short-term/long-term capital gains or anything.

But along the lines of your original question, if Trump cuts income tax rates I will probably change to a Roth 401k.

 

[Momus]

Are you expecting your taxes to be higher during retirement. If not, what's your reasoning behind using a roth?

Tax shelter - additional tax free gain account for 35 yrs and tax diversification (you don't put 1 bet tax not gonna get raised later with just 401k). With both, you can time withdrawal to minimize tax impact in retirement.

Nothing changes in 2017, I'll be putting the max into it too next week.

 

[wagrxm2000]

Tax shelter - additional tax free gain account for 35 yrs and tax diversification (you don't put 1 bet tax not gonna get raised later with just 401k). With both, you can time withdrawal to minimize tax impact in retirement.

Nothing changes in 2017, I'll be putting the max into it too next week.

This sums up my thoughts instead of explaining it myself.

http://www.madfientist.com/traditional-ira-vs-roth-ira/

I can't think of a single reason to use a roth when making over $100k with the current tax rate or trumps.

 

[wagrxm2000]

See the chart of NAK below that is highlighted. If you see my past threads, I have documented how I had put (at one time) a 3rd of my account into this stock after the election. That was back under $1. I took half of that off in the 2's so I am playing with a free position now. Everything else for me on NAK is an add-on trade. The chart of NAK has been very predictable thus far. I highlight my 5 buys below all at support levels: 0.85, 0.90, 1.18, 1.55, and 1.80. I am still holding part of the 0.85 and .90 position, but I cashed half out at 2.10. All the other positions, except the 1.80 position, have already been closed out near whole round numbers like 1.50, 2.00, ect. This has been very successful, but you have to understand that I target big winners and play them heavily. Since I have been successful with NAK I keep going back to it. Don't know what the future holds, but it still looks bright, just look at how bullish the candle was on NAK yesterday-- all the dips are getting bought up quickly.

The current resistance is $2.50. NAK is still very much in play but I would only buy in on dip or carefully timed breakouts. I will close half of my 1.80 position at 2.45 or so and see if we can get a break to 3. If not I will close the other half. Most of my positions are 5-10% of my account and I look to stop out if they go 5-7% below my buy-point. So I don't lose sleep over this. Even if I lost 100% of my position (never happened before) I wouldn't lose that much sleep. While my initial positions are 5-10%, I start adding on to my big winners. That is the key, I am willing to funnel as much of 20-25% into a big winner. But I take profits along the way. The ultimate goal is a free ride like I had with NAK. I also had a free ride with NVDA which I foolishly closed out too early at 100. Most stocks are only good for 20% or so profits, but it is fun to try to find the life-changing stocks can have multibagger potential.

To answer your earlier question about JNUG, I do not have much experience with leveraged ETFs. However I am very hesitant to buy them. They are day-trade only since they are only calibrated to daily movements of GDXJ. Everything else is then reset and there is major slippage potential. I held non-leveraged ETFs in my retirement account extensively, but non-leveraged ETFs are much safer. JNUG is nothing like NAK other than they are both high-volatility plays on gold.
With NAK I can at least hold my money for a period of time without worrying about getting it hacked down by slippage, fees, end-of-day rebalancing, etc.

Lastly, while I do play penny stocks, most of the penny stocks I play are only for day-trades or short periods of time. When I really invest my money, for longer periods of time I try to put it into stocks with multi-bagger potential. Investors.com is one of my favorite resources and if you haven't read 'How to make money in stocks' it is my favorite stock-trading book.

View attachment 213094

Every chart you give showing how easy it is I can show you one that was wrong. I can't count the amount of times I've heard head and shoulders that has been wrong. Go to stocktwits or any app and you will see opposite opinions all the time.

 

[Momus]

This sums up my thoughts instead of explaining it myself.

http://www.madfientist.com/traditional-ira-vs-roth-ira/

I can't think of a single reason to use a roth when making over $100k with the current tax rate or trumps.

Where else can you get an additional 5500 tax free shelter compounded for 35 yrs?

 

[PharmDminus]

This sums up my thoughts instead of explaining it myself.

http://www.madfientist.com/traditional-ira-vs-roth-ira/

I can't think of a single reason to use a roth when making over $100k with the current tax rate or trumps.

Some of us are hedging our bets that tax brackets will be higher in 30 years. The national debt will need to be dealt with eventually, austeric measures will be needed. Think Greece, France.

 

[wagrxm2000]

Where else can you get an additional 5500 tax free shelter compounded for 35 yrs?

So you don't think that article applies to you? Don't you plan on retiring early? If not this is a better article.

http://www.gocurrycracker.com/roth-sucks/

I will gladly read an article showing the benefit of a roth for those at our wages other then higher tax rates which is just personal opinion.

 

[pezdispenser]

This sums up my thoughts instead of explaining it myself.

http://www.madfientist.com/traditional-ira-vs-roth-ira/

I can't think of a single reason to use a roth when making over $100k with the current tax rate or trumps.

You and the article are missing the point. It's not about traditional vs Roth. You do BOTH. In fact, the article talks about retiring early and living off your long-term capital gains and qualified dividends while you convert traditional to Roth. This means you accumulated investments in after-tax accounts and paid taxes on the dividends and cap gains throughout your working life. Instead, you could've put $5,500 of the same after-tax money in a Roth, paid no taxes on the dividends or growth, and then used that money to live off during early retirement, and still convert some more of your traditional to Roth. Or hey, just do it ALL: traditional 401k, Roth and after-tax investing.

As has already been mentioned, it's also about hedging your bets against changes in tax laws. They can change tax brackets, Roth conversion limits, and Hillary already proposed making it 6 years to get the reduced long-term capital gains tax rate.

 

[Momus]

So you don't think that article applies to you? Don't you plan on retiring early? If not this is a better article.

http://www.gocurrycracker.com/roth-sucks/

I need more space where it can compound without getting it taxed 15% at the end for the next 30+ yrs. You can't get 5500 extra space if you just use 18k 401k. With both, I have 22.5k compounded without paying capital gain tax every yr. Then, on top of that I have the flexibility to withdraw whichever account later that produces less tax during my old age. Whoever the damn President is. That's what I meant by tax diversification.

If you are happy with just 18k, you should just stick to 401k.

 

[wagrxm2000]

You and the article are missing the point. It's not about traditional vs Roth. You do BOTH. In fact, the article talks about retiring early and living off your long-term capital gains and qualified dividends while you convert traditional to Roth. This means you accumulated investments in after-tax accounts and paid taxes on the dividends and cap gains throughout your working life. Instead, you could've put $5,500 of the same after-tax money in a Roth, paid no taxes on the dividends or growth, and then used that money to live off during early retirement, and still convert some more of your traditional to Roth. Or hey, just do it ALL: traditional 401k, Roth and after-tax investing.

As has already been mentioned, it's also about hedging your bets against changes in tax laws. They can change tax brackets, Roth conversion limits, and Hillary already proposed making it 6 years to get the reduced long-term capital gains tax rate.

That article was meant for early retirement. You can't argue its points. Converting slowly to a roth is the plan there.

My other article is for roth vs traditional in general.

Higher taxes is simply personal opinion. I 100% agree if you think we will have higher taxes then go roth.

 

[wagrxm2000]

I need more space where it can compound without getting it taxed 15% at the end for the next 30+ yrs. You can't get 5500 extra space if you just use 18k 401k. With both, I have 22.5k compounded without paying capital gain tax every yr. Then, on top of that I have the flexibility to withdraw whichever account later that produces less tax during my old age. Whoever the damn President is. That's what I meant by tax diversification.

If you are happy with just 18k, you should just stick to 401k.

Again don't you plan on retiring early?

 

[Momus]

Again don't you plan on retiring early?

Probably not until I'm at least 50 yo. But, you are missing the point not investing in both. If I do retire early, I will withdraw from my after tax account, letting the gain in tax sheltered account compounds undisturbed until I'm old, which is still better than investing in just 401k. This minimizes tax, and will give more $ at the end.

 

[wagrxm2000]

Probably not until I'm at least 50 yo. But, you are missing the point not investing in both. If I do retire early, I will withdraw from my after tax account, letting the gain in tax sheltered account compounds undisturbed until I'm old, which is still better than investing in just 401k. This minimizes tax, and will give more $ at the end.

Why not convert?

 

[pezdispenser]

Why not convert?

He can certainly convert amounts from traditional to Roth when he is in a low tax bracket if he wants to. Already having money in a Roth does not affect that in any way. It would even be beneficial to already have a built-up Roth because you can withdraw your principal from a Roth at any age tax free, and use that money to pay your living expenses without increasing your tax bracket.

Also there is no annual limit like $5,500 on the amount you can convert to a Roth because a conversion is not a contribution.

 

[Momus]

Why not convert?

If you convert, you pay tax immediately. If that yr, if tax rate is high you are screwed (you never know the future). Converting also doesn't solve the problem of 18k/yr limit contribution. Your taxable account getting taxed every single yr, the dividend gets taxed, the cap gain gets taxed. Over 35 yrs, this is pretty significant $ of compounded returns, a return of your return getting taxed every damn yr. Instead of handing out that little slice of pie every single yr, Roth gives you more space to hide your dividend gain and cap gain from IRS.

If you have both account, you can pick Roth to withdraw it from, it doesn't matter if tax is really high in that yr. You can wait out until tax rate is low to convert/withdraw trad 401k if you want to and still enjoy using your Roth account tax free to pay for living expenses. Tax flexibly and more tax advantaged space are the reasons to want to have both.

 

[wagrxm2000]

I really think you should read up on ways to avoid paying taxes and early retirement. The biggest concern is what changes trump will make like cap gains tax but even a small tax is better then 20 something.

If I retired today I would not be paying any taxes for the rest of my life (unless drastic changes occur). Unfortunately these kids are still here.

 

[MatCauthon]

Every chart you give showing how easy it is I can show you one that was wrong. I can't count the amount of times I've heard head and shoulders that has been wrong. Go to stocktwits or any app and you will see opposite opinions all the time.

Using charts is also about knowing when to use these patterns. Algos are now rampant in the market that intentionally try to lure traders into patterns and then make them fail. There is a lot of discretion and discipline that goes into using charts. That said, I was only using charts as a visual reference for support/resistance levels for NAK. Support/resistance is a fundamental precept of investing/trading. I primarily focus on very simple patterns and basic support/resistance levels. These are extremely helpful for taking profits and losses. I don't see how you can be in the market without knowing that stuff.

 

[wagrxm2000]

Using charts is also about knowing when to use these patterns. Algos are now rampant in the market that intentionally try to lure traders into patterns and then make them fail. There is a lot of discretion and discipline that goes into using charts. That said, I was only using charts as a visual reference for support/resistance levels for NAK. Support/resistance is a fundamental precept of investing/trading. I primarily focus on very simple patterns and basic support/resistance levels. These are extremely helpful for taking profits and losses. I don't see how you can be in the market without knowing that stuff.

So take cnbc when these analysts come on with their charts, I'll keep an eye on some of the stocks and they are almost always wrong. I understand there are algos and computers are doing a lot of the buying and selling which helps big time with resistance/support but these too don't work that often. I'll take research over charts any day.

 

[pezdispenser]

So you don't think that article applies to you? Don't you plan on retiring early? If not this is a better article.

http://www.gocurrycracker.com/roth-sucks/

I will gladly read an article showing the benefit of a roth for those at our wages other then higher tax rates which is just personal opinion.

Again, you keep going down the wrong path by comparing traditional 401k to Roth. Even I favor the traditional 401k, and recommend everyone to max it out first. But then where do you invest after that? The question is now Roth IRA vs taxable. It's almost a no-brainer to choose the Roth.

If you're thinking you'll have to pay an additional 28% tax upfront on the Roth, that is incorrect. You use after-tax money where the tax has already been paid, which is exactly the same money that you would be investing in a taxable account. This means the taxable account has also paid 28% tax upfront too! The only reason people talk about paying 28% tax upfront on a Roth is to make it a fair comparison to a traditional, but once again, we are already past that.

Back to Roth vs taxable, all gains in the Roth are tax free, whereas in a taxable account you'll have to pay taxes on dividends and cap gains on top of your working tax bracket, and you're counting on the 0% long-term cap gains tax bracket still being there when you retire early, which is very questionable.

 

[wagrxm2000]

Again, you keep going down the wrong path by comparing traditional 401k to Roth. Even I favor the traditional 401k, and recommend everyone to max it out first. But then where do you invest after that? The question is now Roth IRA vs taxable. It's almost a no-brainer to choose the Roth.

If you're thinking you'll have to pay an additional 28% tax upfront on the Roth, that is incorrect. You use after-tax money where the tax has already been paid, which is exactly the same money that you would be investing in a taxable account. This means the taxable account has also paid 28% tax upfront too! The only reason people talk about paying 28% tax upfront on a Roth is to make it a fair comparison to a traditional, but once again, we are already past that.

Back to Roth vs taxable, all gains in the Roth are tax free, whereas in a taxable account you'll have to pay taxes on dividends and cap gains on top of your working tax bracket, and you're counting on the 0% long-term cap gains tax bracket still being there when you retire early, which is very questionable.

Just do some research and you'll understand better.

I'm not going to write a huge post, just go to that guys website and he does a great job explaining how to pay the least amount of taxes.

 

[BenJammin]

Never max out a traditional 401k until you max out your Roth IRA first, assuming you put enough in to get the company match AND stay below the threshold for the roth IRA.

 

[Momus]

Just do some research and you'll understand better.

I'm not going to write a huge post, just go to that guys website and he does a great job explaining how to pay the least amount of taxes.

You are the one who needs to do more research on the subject luls... We are all pretty knowledgeable on the subject of backdoor Roth and benefits of having both maxed out.

 

[Momus]

Never max out a traditional 401k until you max out your Roth IRA first, assuming you put enough in to get the company match AND stay below the threshold for the roth IRA.

That's when backdoor Roth comes in... even if you are above the threshold. I already maxed 5500 Roth also. Feb 15ish, I'll max my 401K. Total tax sheltered account 18k + 5.5k. Pretty nice having more space to hide gains/dividend from IRS.

I don't have the option to invest in Roth IRA with my company. I wanna reduce my taxable income anyway so maxing traditional 401k works + 5500 Roth IRA get me the best of both worlds.

 

[PharmDminus]

those who do have roth 401k option (walgreens), how are you breaking up your contributions? i am currently doing 50% roth, 50% traditional. So i am putting 9k into traditional 401k, 9k into roth 401k, and 5.5k into roth ira. (plus employer match in traditional 401k).

 

[Whereismynorco]

can you max out all three ? 401k, roth and traditional 18000+5500+5500 ??

 

[pezdispenser]

those who do have roth 401k option (walgreens), how are you breaking up your contributions? i am currently doing 50% roth, 50% traditional. So i am putting 9k into traditional 401k, 9k into roth 401k, and 5.5k into roth ira. (plus employer match in traditional 401k).

I'm still doing 100% traditional 401k. The tax rates still favor traditional:

Traditional: save 25-28% tax now and reduces your AGI. Tax paid on withdrawal depends on how much, any other income like Social Security, and the tax brackets at the time, but I would guess around 10-15%.

Roth: pay 25-28% tax now, and tax free forever, but this is still higher than the 10-15% on traditional. So I only do a $5,500 Roth IRA after maxing out $18k traditional 401k. I'm not doing a Roth 401k now.

Once you have maxed out those, you can move onto taxable investing which is like paying 25-28% tax now, 25-28% tax on short-term cap gains, but there is a 15% tax bracket for long-term cap gains and qualified dividends, or even a 0% tax bracket below $37k single/$75k married. But I think if the Democrats get into power they will remove this 0% bracket.

 

[pezdispenser]

can you max out all three ? 401k, roth and traditional 18000+5500+5500 ??

No, the Roth IRA and Traditional IRA share the same $5,500 limit per year. However, you might be able to put $3,400 in a HSA if your health insurance plan is compatible. Withdrawals for medical expenses are tax free, and non-medical withdrawals after age 65 get taxed as income just like a traditional IRA.

http://money.usnews.com/money/blogs...o-use-a-health-savings-account-for-retirement

 

[wagrxm2000]

You are the one who needs to do more research on the subject luls... We are all pretty knowledgeable on the subject of backdoor Roth and benefits of having both maxed out.

That's fine by me if you want to lose out on money.