The Iran Nuclear Deal

[doctalaughs]

I agree. The religious intolerance is extraordinary. I can't possibly even relate or grasp it entirely. It's obviously real, but clearly it manifests during periods of instability. Via our ACTIONS of regime change (in Iraq and Syria), the U.S. has caused a great deal of this mayhem. Perhaps it's all part of a plan to destabilize Israel's enemies? I say that tongue in cheek. I'm not at all attacking Israel or any other nation here. But, cooler heads need to prevail. In Israel, fear sells and gets people elected. Fear funds the coffers of the important Israel lobbies. But, is it real? There are always "ifs", but I just hate the fear mongering. It leads to too much suffering in reality.

Easy for you to call it "fear mongering." From the Israeli perspective, they have multiple examples in the last century of attempted/ near total genocide of their people, multiple neighboring countries surprise attacking them in coordination (war of 1948 and six day war 1967) and leaders of nations with nuclear ambitions openly calling for their total destruction (Iran), not to mention decades of daily suicide bombers and random rocket fire. I think their "fear" is well placed. What would the US be doing if the Canadian pm was developing nukes and calling for our total destruction while Mexico was firing rockets daily into texas?

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[Mad Jack]

Easy for you to call it "fear mongering." From the Israeli perspective, they have multiple examples in the last century of attempted/ near total genocide of their people, multiple neighboring countries surprise attacking them in coordination (war of 1948 and six day war 1967) and leaders of nations with nuclear ambitions openly calling for their total destruction (Iran), not to mention decades of daily suicide bombers and random rocket fire. I think their "fear" is well placed. What would the US be doing if the Canadian pm was developing nukes and calling for our total destruction while Mexico was firing rockets daily into texas?

What would the US be doing if a nuclear-capable country country invaded Canada, destabilized their government, occupied them for nearly a decade? Do you think we'd be nervous? Do you think we'd fund a Canadian insurgency to prevent the conflict from spilling over into our lands?

People are quick to put us in the place of Israel and ask us what we'd do, but what if we were Iraq? What if another nation with an army more powerful than ours completely wiped out our government and then went kicking down door after door, throwing our women to the ground and looking for any sign of terrorism in our homes, despite hardly speaking a word of our language? What if another nation accidentally killed your child, or your father, or any other member of your family during the occupation? Would you ever forget? Would you ever forgive? I know that I'd spend every last day of my life fighting to kill the invaders, and if I lost someone in my family, I'd track them down to their home country and do the same that they'd done to me, regardless of their intent. If a country invades the US and we fight back, we're freedom-loving patriots. If we invade another country and their citizens fight back, they're terrorist insurgents.

ISIS is largely something we created. We gave the Taliban their training and equipment. The Iranian regime's existence is a direct result of our actions. All of this happened because we either destabilized a government for our own interests or we funded and trained the wrong people. Many of the people we are fighting started hating us after we invaded their country, killed their relatives or friends, or specifically trained them as death squads or insurgent forces. Yet we look at them and say, "why, why is this happening?" As if this all occurred out of nowhere, as if the only period in history that matters is everything that has happened since 9/11. Iran wants nukes because they're afraid we'll do to them the same thing we did to Iraq and the same thing we supported in Libya. They are far more afraid of us than we are of them, because we've already overthrown their government once, and propped up a fake one, and thought about doing it again. We took down their next door neighbor and turned that country into chaos, it's leader hung and it's people fearing death in the streets every day. And then we say, "oh, you don't need nukes. We won't do to you what we did to Iraq, who had absolutely no weapons of mass destruction! We promise, you'll be fine!" Yeah, you wouldn't buy it either.

Israel also has every right to be afraid. They should cling to those nukes, as they're living in an insanely hostile region, in which everyone wants to kill them. They should've just accepted the damn land we offered them in Canada and this wouldn't have been a problem, ugh. Instead we've been having to deal with the consequence of their living in the Middle East for the last 70 years under our protection. Like, I don't mind helping a friend, but I'm not going to die for my friend or let the world hate me for them when there was a perfectly viable alternative offered. I could care less about their religious holy land- survival as a people is more important than having some ancient land that has religious value but will possibly result in their complete obliteration due to the regional tensions living on that land has caused. My secular worldview doesn't allow me to accept the insanity that the decision to place the Jewish people in the Middle East has caused. Iran is the largest of the complications that that decision exacerbated, but we've got enemies the world over for it.

http://www.cracked.com/personal-exp...-death-squads-isiss-bizarre-origin-story.html

 

[doctalaughs]

What would the US be doing if a nuclear-capable country country invaded Canada, destabilized their government, occupied them for nearly a decade? Do you think we'd be nervous? Do you think we'd fund a Canadian insurgency to prevent the conflict from spilling over into our lands?

People are quick to put us in the place of Israel and ask us what we'd do, but what if we were Iraq? What if another nation with an army more powerful than ours completely wiped out our government and then went kicking down door after door, throwing our women to the ground and looking for any sign of terrorism in our homes, despite hardly speaking a word of our language? What if another nation accidentally killed your child, or your father, or any other member of your family during the occupation? Would you ever forget? Would you ever forgive? I know that I'd spend every last day of my life fighting to kill the invaders, and if I lost someone in my family, I'd track them down to their home country and do the same that they'd done to me, regardless of their intent. If a country invades the US and we fight back, we're freedom-loving patriots. If we invade another country and their citizens fight back, they're terrorist insurgents.

ISIS is largely something we created. We gave the Taliban their training and equipment. The Iranian regime's existence is a direct result of our actions. All of this happened because we either destabilized a government for our own interests or we funded and trained the wrong people. Many of the people we are fighting started hating us after we invaded their country, killed their relatives or friends, or specifically trained them as death squads or insurgent forces. Yet we look at them and say, "why, why is this happening?" As if this all occurred out of nowhere, as if the only period in history that matters is everything that has happened since 9/11. Iran wants nukes because they're afraid we'll do to them the same thing we did to Iraq and the same thing we supported in Libya. They are far more afraid of us than we are of them, because we've already overthrown their government once, and propped up a fake one, and thought about doing it again. We took down their next door neighbor and turned that country into chaos, it's leader hung and it's people fearing death in the streets every day. And then we say, "oh, you don't need nukes. We won't do to you what we did to Iraq, who had absolutely no weapons of mass destruction! We promise, you'll be fine!" Yeah, you wouldn't buy it either.

Israel also has every right to be afraid. They should cling to those nukes, as they're living in an insanely hostile region, in which everyone wants to kill them. They should've just accepted the damn land we offered them in Canada and this wouldn't have been a problem, ugh. Instead we've been having to deal with the consequence of their living in the Middle East for the last 70 years under our protection. Like, I don't mind helping a friend, but I'm not going to die for my friend or let the world hate me for them when there was a perfectly viable alternative offered. I could care less about their religious holy land- survival as a people is more important than having some ancient land that has religious value but will possibly result in their complete obliteration due to the regional tensions living on that land has caused. My secular worldview doesn't allow me to accept the insanity that the decision to place the Jewish people in the Middle East has caused. Iran is the largest of the complications that that decision exacerbated, but we've got enemies the world over for it.

http://www.cracked.com/personal-exp...-death-squads-isiss-bizarre-origin-story.html

So wait - if our country was invaded you'd be out raping / selling women and beheading their families? Are you actually defending and justifying ISIS and their like?

In all seriousness, where do you draw the line personally? We've definitely made a lot of mistakes and bad decisions in the middle east - i will freely admit - but do you think ISIS is right/justified? What about Al Qaeda? Hezbollah? You are obviously enamored with Obama's apologetic world-view.

In regards to the US offering the jews a sovereign homeland in Canada is that made up? My recollection of history is that no one wanted to accept many refugees and the jews clung to Israel as their only choice so that they could finally defend themselves.

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/mobile/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005459

 

[Mad Jack]

So wait - if our country was invaded you'd be out raping / selling women and beheading their families? Are you actually defending and justifying ISIS and their like?

In all seriousness, where do you draw the line personally? We've definitely made a lot of mistakes and bad decisions in the middle east - i will freely admit - but do you think ISIS is right/justified? What about Al Qaeda? Hezbollah? You are obviously enamored with Obama's apologetic world-view.

In regards to the US offering the jews a sovereign homeland in Canada is that made up? My recollection of history is that no one wanted to accept many refugees and the jews clung to Israel as their only choice so that they could finally defend themselves.

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/mobile/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005459

I'm not saying everything ISIS or terrorists do is justified. I'm just saying, we can't invade another country, occupy it, and kill their people and expect to spawn no anti-US fanatics and insurgents. If another nation dropped a bomb that killed my family member, I'd do everything I could to make that nation pay in blood every day until I died, because I love this country and my family. Anyone that harmed my country or those I love had better be ready to pay until my dying breath. Wouldn't you do the same? This isn't abut being an apologist, it's about understanding the nature of wanting to defend one's country and revenge. Would you let another country's soldiers invade the US and do nothing? Would you let your family members die and shrug your shoulders?

ISIS is another matter entirely- a large number of ISIS personnel are former members of death squads that we armed and trained that had no other place that would accept them in society once we left, so they joined ISIS once we stopped lining their pockets. They don't even care about ideology- they know how to kill and don't want to starve. They're mercenaries and ISIS is paying up.

The US had no right to offer the Jewish state any land in any place in the world aside from our own. The British offered up the land of the Palestinians, which had been acquired incidentally via the Turkish empire post-war. Canada was proposed as an option in the early 20th century, as was Australia, both prior to the Holocaust. There were other proposals over the years, for many different locations. The Palestinians were the only ones to reject a proposal and have their voice overruled by the UN. I mean, really, how would you feel if the UN had suddenly voted to move, say, the Chinese into the United States and partition us into two countries, particularly if the Chinese were to occupy the land or house you lived on or within? We had no right to give them that land, that's what this boils down to. The very site you posted notes this. But we moved the Jewish people in anyway- something we could have done without the people's consent in any conceivable nation, but we chose to do in the Middle East. And it totally worked out well and had zero consequences I've got zero problem with a Jewish state, I just think setting it up in the ME without the consent of the people that owned the land upon which they were to settle was literally one of the biggest mistakes in all of history, and one that will affect our lives and those of our children. It's a rallying cry for the crazies in Iran and many of the terrorists out there that could have been easily avoided by giving the Jewish people land literally anywhere else in the damn world.

I think we should have just moved them all to the United States and given them citizenship. Problem solved, no powder keg in the ME, none of this nonsense. The Jews live, America gets a bunch of talented scientists, physicians, etc from all over the globe, the Palestinians get their land, everybody wins. Don't know why we didn't just take that approach. Now we've got Iran up our *** just so some people can lay claim to land that they haven't lived upon in nearly two thousand years, woo. The nuclear threat is totally worth the outdated religious nonsense.

 

[deleted126335]

You realize that Iranian society was democratic, secular, and completely absent of extremism before we overthrew their government in the 50s, right? It's not like they are incapable of democracy and tolerance.

That's not what they are today.

 

[deleted126335]

The US had no right to offer the Jewish state any land in any place in the world aside from our own. The British offered up the land of the Palestinians, which had been acquired incidentally via the Turkish empire post-war. Canada was proposed as an option in the early 20th century, as was Australia, both prior to the Holocaust. There were other proposals over the years, for many different locations. The Palestinians were the only ones to reject a proposal and have their voice overruled by the UN. I mean, really, how would you feel if the UN had suddenly voted to move, say, the Chinese into the United States and partition us into two countries, particularly if the Chinese were to occupy the land or house you lived on or within? We had no right to give them that land, that's what this boils down to. The very site you posted notes this. But we moved the Jewish people in anyway- something we could have done without the people's consent in any conceivable nation, but we chose to do in the Middle East.

Your knowledge of the history of the establishment of the Jewish state is unbelievably inaccurate.
The UN voted to partition the land in fall of 1947 into two states one Jewish one Palestinian. The Jews accepted the Palestinians did not. The UN vote was not enforced.
The state of Israel established itself in May of 1948. The day the British pulled out. The day they declared their independence they were attacked by five Arab armies.
The US or the UN did not "give them the land".
The land that the UN voted to partition as a Jewish state was majority Jewish.
The British abstained in the UN vote of 1947 (did not vote in favor of the establishment of a Jewish state). They also blocked Jewish immigration to the area in the 30s and post World War 2.

 

[Planktonmd]

Some people are evil. Some people need killing. I'd rather be on the killing side than the dying side, and I'm not interested in fair fights.

I like your philosophy and I have to say it is the only one that is worth having!

 

[GA8314]

It's totally counterproductive to suggest that Israel, as a nation state, should cease to exist. It's not even remotely practical or ethical in any way at this point. I don't know all of the nuances of the creation of Israel. Yes, it was a movement of colonization etc etc but the fact is that Israel EXISTS today and isn't going anywhere. For sure some of the settlement expansion needs to stop in the name of peace and for humanitarian reasons. Ethnic cleansing of that land of Palestinians is a humanitarian disaster which the Jewish people should know better than to be perpetrating. Not all Jews feel this way, but the problem ALL over the Middle East (including Israel) is that hardliners are in control.

Hard liners push fear because it gets them votes. Sometimes those platforms are based on religious fervor and intolerance of others. Religion and ethnocentrism is pervasive and is a big part of the problem. Nobody in the Middle East is exempt from the above, and the U.S. should distance themselves from ANY such government. Perhaps that's what is beginning to happen.

 

[Mad Jack]

Your knowledge of the history of the establishment of the Jewish state is unbelievably inaccurate.
The UN voted to partition the land in fall of 1947 into two states one Jewish one Palestinian. The Jews accepted the Palestinians did not. The UN vote was not enforced.
The state of Israel established itself in May of 1948. The day the British pulled out. The day they declared their independence they were attacked by five Arab armies.
The US or the UN did not "give them the land".
The land that the UN voted to partition as a Jewish state was majority Jewish.
The British abstained in the UN vote of 1947 (did not vote in favor of the establishment of a Jewish state). They also blocked Jewish immigration to the area in the 30s and post World War 2.

The British Mandate prior to 1939 and British military support was the only reason enough Jews were in Israel for the establishment of the state of Israel in the first place. They held off the issue during and after WWII, but that was only to avoid offending Egypt, Syria, and Saudi Arabia, which were all British allies, and not people you want to upset in the middle of a World War, or directly after when they've already provided you with help.

A bunch of people moving to a place and declaring independence shouldn't make a state, in any case. If two million Syrians moved to Vermont and declared independence, we'd bomb the hell out of them. A massive wave of immigrants came to a country, said "we own this now" against the will of the people that had been living there for well over a thousand years, and then act like victims when the allies of the people that previously owned the land decide to wage war with them. I mean, if this happened anywhere else in the world we'd be like, "well obviously people are going to try and kill you, you suddenly immigrated by the millions and declared an independent state in somebody else's land." I just wish the Israelis picked basically any other place in the world and done things in a manner that didn't result in all of their neighbors hating them.

This is all critical because we supported them and continue to be one of the only countries that endlessly supports them. Their decisions have directly harmed our international standing in one of the most important regions in the world, all while providing pretty much nothing but loyalty (except when it is inconvenient, like when we ask them to stop building settlements and approach the peace process more seriously) in return. We most likely wouldn't have to worry about a nuclear Iran at all if we didn't support Israel and hadn't destabilized the Middle East for oil in the 20th century. If we'd been doing what is objectively right and letting countries determine their own manifest self-interests rather than manipulating governments and propping up powers for our own interests, we wouldn't have Iran-funded terrorists all up in our business. There's a reason our founding fathers were staunch proponents of non-interventionist international involvement, and it was to avoid precisely what is happening today. We shouldn't have to be the ones bargaining with Iran, we should never have been involved to begin with. Now we're reaping what we've sewn, another century of playing world police because we couldn't just leave things alone to begin with and let other nations live or die by their own decisions instead of our will. I just hope there's a day some centuries down the line when we don't even care about a state's nuclear ambitions because we kept to ourselves and aren't a target to begin with.

 

[Planktonmd]

The British Mandate prior to 1939 and British military support was the only reason enough Jews were in Israel for the establishment of the state of Israel in the first place. They held off the issue during and after WWII, but that was only to avoid offending Egypt, Syria, and Saudi Arabia, which were all British allies, and not people you want to upset in the middle of a World War, or directly after when they've already provided you with help.

A bunch of people moving to a place and declaring independence shouldn't make a state, in any case. If two million Syrians moved to Vermont and declared independence, we'd bomb the hell out of them. A massive wave of immigrants came to a country, said "we own this now" against the will of the people that had been living there for well over a thousand years, and then act like victims when the allies of the people that previously owned the land decide to wage war with them. I mean, if this happened anywhere else in the world we'd be like, "well obviously people are going to try and kill you, you suddenly immigrated by the millions and declared an independent state in somebody else's land." I just wish the Israelis picked basically any other place in the world and done things in a manner that didn't result in all of their neighbors hating them.

This is all critical because we supported them and continue to be one of the only countries that endlessly supports them. Their decisions have directly harmed our international standing in one of the most important regions in the world, all while providing pretty much nothing but loyalty (except when it is inconvenient, like when we ask them to stop building settlements and approach the peace process more seriously) in return. We most likely wouldn't have to worry about a nuclear Iran at all if we didn't support Israel and hadn't destabilized the Middle East for oil in the 20th century. If we'd been doing what is objectively right and letting countries determine their own manifest self-interests rather than manipulating governments and propping up powers for our own interests, we wouldn't have Iran-funded terrorists all up in our business. There's a reason our founding fathers were staunch proponents of non-interventionist international involvement, and it was to avoid precisely what is happening today. We shouldn't have to be the ones bargaining with Iran, we should never have been involved to begin with. Now we're reaping what we've sewn, another century of playing world police because we couldn't just leave things alone to begin with and let other nations live or die by their own decisions instead of our will. I just hope there's a day some centuries down the line when we don't even care about a state's nuclear ambitions because we kept to ourselves and aren't a target to begin with.

Well said and absolutely accurate non biased description of the situation.
Unfortunately it's a matter of time before you are accused of being anti-Semitic as usual.

 

[GA8314]

Well said and absolutely accurate non biased description of the situation.
Unfortunately it's a matter of time before you are accused of being anti-Semitic as usual.

Perhaps but it's no longer a credible accusation these days. It's been so overused that it's become a joke and just doesn't carry any weight anymore. People are more and more educated on these issues and it's no longer just a handful of biased media corporations controlling information. Sure, the masses of Americans will be lead along blindly as always, but most educated and intelligent people know better because they make efforts to stay informed and are less subject to the "simple" tactics of manipulation, and false "debates" on such issues.

 

[deleted162650]

So much of this thread makes me think of this song:

 

[Planktonmd]

Perhaps but it's no longer a credible accusation these days. It's been so overused that it's become a joke and just doesn't carry any weight anymore. People are more and more educated on these issues and it's no longer just a handful of biased media corporations controlling information. Sure, the masses of Americans will be lead along blindly as always, but most educated and intelligent people know better because they make efforts to stay informed and are less subject to the "simple" tactics of manipulation, and false "debates" on such issues.

What percentage of the population are those "educated" well informed people in your estimate?

 

[GA8314]

What percentage of the population are those "educated" well informed people in your estimate?

I realize it's relatively low, but the influence that minority has should be a game changer eventually. The vast majority of my personal friends are successful, educated, and doing very well financially. Literally none of them are drinking the Kool Aid these days. And the younger generation even less so. They've never really been overly influenced by the old mainstream media monopoly on information, and are thus much more informed.

 

[mostwanted]

What percentage of the population are those "educated" well informed people in your estimate?

Mad Jack's account was fairly accurate. It is sad to see any condemnation of Zionism is mislabeled as antisemitism. There are Orthodox Jewish Organizations who stand up against these hard line Zionists (e.g. Netruei karta)

Israel certainly should exist and defend herself, but same basic rights should also be afforded to Palestinians who are forced to live in humiliating conditions in the "world's largest open air prison."

I think the number of well informed people based on scholarly sources is fairly low, which is completely opposite of what we aspire to do as physicians. Most of us depend on mainstream outlets, that are often far from the truth. For instance, how many of these outlets reported the 1000 acres of Palestinian land that was stolen and added to Israel last September by Netanyahu. Why does Israel continue to bulldoze Palestinian home and build illegal settlements. The entire international community is on one side and Israel & US on the other. And now we are forced to believe that Iran stands in way of Israel/Middle East peace, and more US soldiers need to die. I am not buying it.

http://www.economist.com/news/middl...biggest-land-grab-generation-another-thousand

 

[GA8314]

Mad Jack's account was fairly accurate. It is sad to see any condemnation of Zionism is mislabeled as antisemitism. There are Orthodox Jewish Organizations who stand up against these hard line Zionists (e.g. Netruei karta)

Israel certainly should exist and defend herself, but same basic rights should also be afforded to Palestinians who are forced to live in humiliating conditions in the "world's largest open air prison."

I think the number of well informed people based on scholarly sources is fairly low, which is completely opposite of what we aspire to do as physicians. Most of us depend on mainstream outlets, that are often far from the truth. For instance, how many of these outlets reported the 1000 acres of Palestinian land that was stolen and added to Israel last September by Netanyahu. Why does Israel continue to bulldoze Palestinian home and build illegal settlements. The entire international community is on one side and Israel & US on the other. And now we are forced to believe that Iran stands in way of Israel/Middle East peace, and more US soldiers need to die. I am not buying it.

http://www.economist.com/news/middl...biggest-land-grab-generation-another-thousand

I'm not buying it either. Our numbers are growing, and the tide is shifting already. I agree that any nation has the right to defend herself. But, that's not what this is about. It's about ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from their land. This is seen as a pretty straightforward issue by most of the world except for the U.S. where Zionist money buys our foreign policy on this issue. Anyone having difficulties seeing this needs to look again.

 

[doctalaughs]

Ethnic cleansing of that land of Palestinians is a humanitarian disaster which the Jewish people should know better than to be perpetrating.

It's a sad testament to the anti-semitic media that one as intelligent as you actually believes this. Hitler gassing 6 million jews was "ethnic cleansing." The Israelis have done everything in their power to minimize civilian casualties in the face of human shields and rockets launched from schools and hospitals. No other nation in the world calls residents of buildings in a war to tell them it's about to be bombed. No other nation sends 'dud' bombs as a warning before sending real ones to destroy rocket platforms launched against them. Hell, the Israelis even offered them a state with 100% of gaza 95% of the west bank and full control of east jeruselum in 2000 which was refused. Make no mistake hamas, palestinians, hezbollah and Iran have
zero interest in peace with Israel. They want exactly what they are saying - the destruction of Israel.

Heres the vast difference between Israel and perpetrators of "ethnic cleansing." If Israel wanted to displace or kill every man woman and child in gaza and the west bank they could easily do it anytime within a few weeks but instead they show restraint. If the other side had the means Israel would be a graveyard.

 

[Planktonmd]

It's a sad testament to the anti-semitic media that one as intelligent as you actually believes this. Hitler gassing 6 million jews was "ethnic cleansing." The Israelis have done everything in their power to minimize civilian casualties in the face of human shields and rockets launched from schools and hospitals. No other nation in the world calls residents of buildings in a war to tell them it's about to be bombed. No other nation sends 'dud' bombs as a warning before sending real ones to destroy rocket platforms launched against them. Hell, the Israelis even offered them a state with 100% of gaza 95% of the west bank and full control of east jeruselum in 2000 which was refused. Make no mistake hamas, palestinians, hezbollah and Iran have
zero interest in peace with Israel. They want exactly what they are saying - the destruction of Israel.

Heres the vast difference between Israel and perpetrators of "ethnic cleansing." If Israel wanted to displace or kill every man woman and child in gaza and the west bank they could easily do it anytime within a few weeks but instead they show restraint. If the other side had the means Israel would be a graveyard.

Thank you for reminding us of the human aspects of Israeli policy towards the Palestinians. We truly need well informed people like you to help convince the millions of Palestinian children who were born and lived all their lives in the refugee camps how Israel was kind to them and their parents, and that the whole thing is a big misunderstanding of Israel's noble intentions.

 

[doctalaughs]

Mad Jack's account was fairly accurate. It is sad to see any condemnation of Zionism is mislabeled as antisemitism. There are Orthodox Jewish Organizations who stand up against these hard line Zionists (e.g. Netruei karta)

Israel certainly should exist and defend herself, but same basic rights should also be afforded to Palestinians who are forced to live in humiliating conditions in the "world's largest open air prison."

I think the number of well informed people based on scholarly sources is fairly low, which is completely opposite of what we aspire to do as physicians. Most of us depend on mainstream outlets, that are often far from the truth. For instance, how many of these outlets reported the 1000 acres of Palestinian land that was stolen and added to Israel last September by Netanyahu. Why does Israel continue to bulldoze Palestinian home and build illegal settlements. The entire international community is on one side and Israel & US on the other. And now we are forced to believe that Iran stands in way of Israel/Middle East peace, and more US soldiers need to die. I am not buying it.

http://www.economist.com/news/middl...biggest-land-grab-generation-another-thousand

Say what you want about settlements and zionists ( I agree some of them are fanatics). So if Israel dismantled all the settlements would they get peace? It's happened in the past and the rockets kept coming. If they gave up all control of gaza and west bank would they get peace? That happened too, and the rockets kept coming. What about agreeing multiple times to a two-state solution with full autonomy of the Palestinians in exchange for a stop to rockets and suicide bombs? Wait, that has happened too with abject rejection from the other side. Given the history they might as well build settlements- at least there will be a larger buffer to defend themselves.

What exactly would you propose the Israelis do?

 

[sleepallday]

I'm not Hamas's number 1 fan, but war crimes and the allegations of human shields go both ways.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.662389

 

[Mad Jack]

It's a sad testament to the anti-semitic media that one as intelligent as you actually believes this. Hitler gassing 6 million jews was "ethnic cleansing." The Israelis have done everything in their power to minimize civilian casualties in the face of human shields and rockets launched from schools and hospitals. No other nation in the world calls residents of buildings in a war to tell them it's about to be bombed. No other nation sends 'dud' bombs as a warning before sending real ones to destroy rocket platforms launched against them. Hell, the Israelis even offered them a state with 100% of gaza 95% of the west bank and full control of east jeruselum in 2000 which was refused. Make no mistake hamas, palestinians, hezbollah and Iran have
zero interest in peace with Israel. They want exactly what they are saying - the destruction of Israel.

Heres the vast difference between Israel and perpetrators of "ethnic cleansing." If Israel wanted to displace or kill every man woman and child in gaza and the west bank they could easily do it anytime within a few weeks but instead they show restraint. If the other side had the means Israel would be a graveyard.

No other nation bombs civilian buildings in residential areas regularly enough to have devised strategies to minimize civilian casualties on short notice, forces an entire ethnic population to live their lives under constant guard and security checkpoints, gradually steals and settles upon every scrap of good land they have, and denies an entire ethnic population their human and economic rights for so long that most of the people living behind those walls have never seen a world without them. If, say, Norway were to round up every non-white person and shove them behind a wall and security checkpoints and deny them the ability to freely move and trade with the outside world, everyone would be outraged. But for some reason Israel is treated differently.

I'm not claiming they're commiting some kind of ethnic cleansing, but I am stating, as a fact, that they are denying millions of people the basic human rights they are guaranteed under international law. I can't be okay with that as a freedom-loving American. Our backing what much of the world sees as a country that is committing basic human rights violations on a consistent basis with no end in sight is largely why we have a problem with Iran to begin with. That and the whole installing of the Shah thing.

 

[doctalaughs]

No other nation bombs civilian buildings in residential areas regularly enough to have devised strategies to minimize civilian casualties on short notice, forces an entire ethnic population to live their lives under constant guard and security checkpoints, gradually steals and settles upon every scrap of good land they have, and denies an entire ethnic population their human and economic rights for so long that most of the people living behind those walls have never seen a world without them. If, say, Norway were to round up every non-white person and shove them behind a wall and security checkpoints and deny them the ability to freely move and trade with the outside world, everyone would be outraged. But for some reason Israel is treated differently.

I'm not claiming they're commiting some kind of ethnic cleansing, but I am stating, as a fact, that they are denying millions of people the basic human rights they are guaranteed under international law. I can't be okay with that as a freedom-loving American. Our backing what much of the world sees as a country that is committing basic human rights violations on a consistent basis with no end in sight is largely why we have a problem with Iran to begin with. That and the whole installing of the Shah thing.

You didn't claim ethnic cleansing but ga8314 does (see above) which is clearly offensive especially to a group that really was ethnically cleansed many times.

So again I repeat, what is your suggestion what the Israelis are to do? Let their populace be rocketed daily and suicide bombers go unhindered? They have tried multiple times to loosen restrictions and give back land (read the history) and were rebuffed with more death squad tunnels, violence and threats of total destruction.

 

[GA8314]

You didn't claim ethnic cleansing but ga8314 does (see above) which is clearly offensive especially to a group that really was ethnically cleansed many times.

So again I repeat, what is your suggestion what the Israelis are to do? Let their populace be rocketed daily and suicide bombers go unhindered? They have tried multiple times to loosen restrictions and give back land (read the history) and were rebuffed with more death squad tunnels, violence and threats of total destruction.

Ethnic cleansing of the land via forced resettlement of Palestinians and bulldozing homes to clear the way for Jewish settlers is exactly what is taking place. I didn't say genocide. I said ethnic cleansing. That's an accurate description of what is happening.

If you don't like the term ethnic cleansing, then stop trying to justify it.

Encyclopedia Brittanica:
ethnic cleansing, the attempt to create ethnically homogeneous geographic areas through the deportation or forcible displacement of persons belonging to particular ethnic groups

 

[deleted126335]

Well said and absolutely accurate non biased description of the situation.
Unfortunately it's a matter of time before you are accused of being anti-Semitic as usual.

"Criticizing Israel is not anti-Semitic and saying so is vile. But singling out Israel for opprobrium and international sanction - out of proportion to any other party in the Middle East is anti-Semitic and not saying so is dishonest."

-Thomas Friedman

 

[Planktonmd]

Say what you want about settlements and zionists ( I agree some of them are fanatics). So if Israel dismantled all the settlements would they get peace? It's happened in the past and the rockets kept coming. If they gave up all control of gaza and west bank would they get peace? That happened too, and the rockets kept coming. What about agreeing multiple times to a two-state solution with full autonomy of the Palestinians in exchange for a stop to rockets and suicide bombs? Wait, that has happened too with abject rejection from the other side. Given the history they might as well build settlements- at least there will be a larger buffer to defend themselves.

What exactly would you propose the Israelis do?

Eventually both sides will understand that they can't keep on hating and attempting to destroy each other.

You didn't claim ethnic cleansing but ga8314 does (see above) which is clearly offensive especially to a group that really was ethnically cleansed many times.

So again I repeat, what is your suggestion what the Israelis are to do? Let their populace be rocketed daily and suicide bombers go unhindered? They have tried multiple times to loosen restrictions and give back land (read the history) and were rebuffed with more death squad tunnels, violence and threats of total destruction.

It makes no sense to ask now what they can do! You can't after decades of injustice, murder and oppression expect people to just forget and stop hating you! It will take time and effort from all sides and probably the first step would be to not have right wing lunatics at positions of leadership on both sides.
It's not going to happen anytime soon but it will.

 

[deleted126335]

Ethnic cleansing of the land via forced resettlement of Palestinians and bulldozing homes to clear the way for Jewish settlers is exactly what is taking place. I didn't say genocide. I said ethnic cleansing. That's an accurate description of what is happening.

If you don't like the term ethnic cleaning, tough. If you feel that's anti-Semitic, tough.

The pain of the Palestinians is largely self inflicted. Multiple times they have been offered a state and Peace, but each time the deal was never good enough because the deal would require the security of Israel as a Jewish State. That is a necessary but not sufficient condition for peace from an Israeli perspective.
Clearly one that the Palestinians are not willing to meet.

If you can't have peace, no peace and all or almost all of the land is better than no peace and some of the land.

 

[Planktonmd]

"Criticizing Israel is not anti-Semitic and saying so is vile. But singling out Israel for opprobrium and international sanction - out of proportion to any other party in the Middle East is anti-Semitic and not saying so is dishonest."

-Thomas Friedman

Man, the international sanctions against Israel are not worth the paper they were written on, Actually I think that Netanyahu uses sanctions for toilet paper!

 

[Planktonmd]

The pain of the Palestinians is largely self inflicted. Multiple times they have been offered a state and Peace, but each time the deal was never good enough because the deal would require the security of Israel as a Jewish State. That is a necessary but not sufficient condition for peace from an Israeli perspective.
Clearly one that the Palestinians are not willing to meet.

If you can't have peace, no peace and all or almost all of the land is better than no peace and some of the land.

you can't negotiate a peace deal with someone who has his military boot on your neck!

 

[deleted126335]

you can't negotiate a peace deal with someone who has his military boot on your neck!

You can't negotiate with someone who denies your very right to exist.

 

[GA8314]

"Criticizing Israel is not anti-Semitic and saying so is vile. But singling out Israel for opprobrium and international sanction - out of proportion to any other party in the Middle East is anti-Semitic and not saying so is dishonest."

-Thomas Friedman

I would agree with this. There should not be exceptionalism in either direction

The pain of the Palestinians is largely self inflicted. Multiple times they have been offered a state and Peace, but each time the deal was never good enough because the deal would require the security of Israel as a Jewish State. That is a necessary but not sufficient condition for peace from an Israeli perspective.
Clearly one that the Palestinians are not willing to meet.

If you can't have peace, no peace and all or almost all of the land is better than no peace and some of the land.

What a nice way to justify what is going on.

 

[deleted126335]

Man, the international sanctions against Israel are not worth the paper they were written on, Actually I think that Netanyahu uses sanctions for toilet paper!

What should he do with them? Israel is the only permanent agenda item of the meetings of the UN human rights council. Call me crazy but that is antisemitism plain and simple.

 

[GA8314]

You can't negotiate with someone who denies your very right to exist.

Stop with the propaganda that all or even most Palestinians deny Israel's right to exist. Even if many do (and I don't doubt it), nobody with any credibility is suggesting that Israel shouldn't exist, or worse, should cease to exist.

The problem is that the more bloodshed and land grabbing that goes on, hard liners on both sides win. Then it comes down to military or tactical force. We know who has that advantage.

 

[GA8314]

What should he do with them? Israel is the only permanent agenda item of the meetings of the UN human rights council. Call me crazy but that is antisemitism plain and simple.

Do you really believe the world is out to get "the Jews"?? Yikes.....

 

[Planktonmd]

You can't negotiate with someone who denies your very right to exist.

Why not?
Isn't that what negotiations are for?

 

[Planktonmd]

What should he do with them? Israel is the only permanent agenda item of the meetings of the UN human rights council. Call me crazy but that is antisemitism plain and simple.

Is there even a remote possibility that those human rights violations are actually real or they are all just made up?

 

[deleted126335]

Stop with the propaganda that all or even most Palestinians deny Israel's right to exist. Even if many do (and I don't doubt it), nobody with any credibility is suggesting that Israel shouldn't exist, or worse, should cease to exist.

The problem is that the more bloodshed and land grabbing that goes on, hard liners on both sides win. Then it comes down to military or tactical force. We know who has that advantage.

'Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.' (Preamble)

-HAMAS Charter.

HAMAS are the freely elected members of the Palestinians in Gaza. Do you consider the Palestinians elected representatives "not credible"?

32 UN members don't recognize Israel.

 

[pgg]

Israel certainly should exist and defend herself, but same basic rights should also be afforded to Palestinians who are forced to live in humiliating conditions in the "world's largest open air prison."

The Palestinians are pawns and propaganda tools for the Arab countries in the region who desire a permanent victim state to exploit. Any one of the perpetually outraged countries surrounding Israel could have, at any time in any of the last few decades, taken in these helpless refugees if they actually gave two ****s about those people. But they don't.

Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, etc even countries as far away as Iran want the Palestineans to be perpetually poor and disadvantaged because it breeds desperate, angry, hopeless people who then direct their desperate hopeless anger at Israel. They can then fight their proxy wars vs Israel without much risk to themselves, meanwhile pointing at the Palestineans to keep their own people riled up and pissed off and maybe less interested in talking about their own slightly less hopeless situation.

I'm all out of craps to give for the Palestineans or their cynical "friends" in surrounding countries. I guess I've just reached the point at which self-inflicted misery fails to evoke concern any more.

Wars like this, one should
1) not get involved
2) if one ignores rule 1, one should pick a side
3) after picking a side, win

Rule 1 is water under the bridge; at this point I pick Israel and am glad my country and my government (mostly) has too. The only money and support we haven't wasted in that part of the world in my lifetime has gone to Israel.

 

[Planktonmd]

The Palestinians are pawns and propaganda tools for the Arab countries in the region who desire a permanent victim state to exploit. Any one of the perpetually outraged countries surrounding Israel could have, at any time in any of the last few decades, taken in these helpless refugees if they actually gave two ****s about those people. But they don't.

Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, etc even countries as far away as Iran want the Palestineans to be perpetually poor and disadvantaged because it breeds desperate, angry, hopeless people who then direct their desperate hopeless anger at Israel. They can then fight their proxy wars vs Israel without much risk to themselves, meanwhile pointing at the Palestineans to keep their own people riled up and pissed off and maybe less interested in talking about their own slightly less hopeless situation.

I'm all out of craps to give for the Palestineans or their cynical "friends" in surrounding countries. I guess I've just reached the point at which self-inflicted misery fails to evoke concern any more.

Wars like this, one should
1) not get involved
2) if one ignores rule 1, one should pick a side
3) after picking a side, win

Rule 1 is water under the bridge; at this point I pick Israel and am glad my country and my government (mostly) has too. The only money and support we haven't wasted in that part of the world in my lifetime has gone to Israel.

What did the US get in return for the money given to Israel?

 

[deleted126335]

Is there even a remote possibility that those human rights violations are actually real or they are all just made up?

Yes. It is possible. But I consider those who single out the human rights violations allegedly committed by Israel, without condemning others suspect.
It is a Double standard and selective moral outrage with no rational basis other than antisemitism.

 

[deleted126335]

Do you really believe the world is out to get "the Jews"?? Yikes.....

No. Just 1-2 billion of it.

 

[pgg]

What did the US get in return for the money given to Israel?

Perhaps nothing more than the warm fuzzy feeling that comes from aiding a friend and ally, and honoring the trust and faith they placed in you. But that is enough.

 

[GA8314]

No. Just 1-2 billion of it.

That level of paranoia is serving you. It serves to justify your ideology. That's fine, but I see it for what it is.

 

[GA8314]

The Palestinians are pawns and propaganda tools for the Arab countries in the region who desire a permanent victim state to exploit. Any one of the perpetually outraged countries surrounding Israel could have, at any time in any of the last few decades, taken in these helpless refugees if they actually gave two ****s about those people. But they don't.

Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, etc even countries as far away as Iran want the Palestineans to be perpetually poor and disadvantaged because it breeds desperate, angry, hopeless people who then direct their desperate hopeless anger at Israel. They can then fight their proxy wars vs Israel without much risk to themselves, meanwhile pointing at the Palestineans to keep their own people riled up and pissed off and maybe less interested in talking about their own slightly less hopeless situation.

I'm all out of craps to give for the Palestineans or their cynical "friends" in surrounding countries. I guess I've just reached the point at which self-inflicted misery fails to evoke concern any more.

Wars like this, one should
1) not get involved
2) if one ignores rule 1, one should pick a side
3) after picking a side, win

Rule 1 is water under the bridge; at this point I pick Israel and am glad my country and my government (mostly) has too. The only money and support we haven't wasted in that part of the world in my lifetime has gone to Israel.

I absolutely agree that the Palestinians are being used, and have been used, as propaganda against Israel.

That, however, doesn't excuse mistreating and continuing to ethnically cleanse a group of people from their land. How the f.ck anybody can justify that is beyond me.

 

[GA8314]

Perhaps nothing more than the warm fuzzy feeling that comes from aiding a friend and ally, and honoring the trust and faith they placed in you. But that is enough.

Go walk down a street in an Orthodox part of town in Israel, and see how friendly you are treated.

 

[pgg]

Go walk down a street in an Orthodox part of town in Israel, and see how friendly you are treated.

Friendlier than I would be in Compton, and yet if those unfriendly-to-me Comptonites were threatened I'd still defend them, because they're Americans.

 

[deleted126335]

That level of paranoia is serving you. It serves to justify your ideology. That's fine, but I see it for what it is.

Only the Paranoid Survive.

Andras Graf. a.k.a Andy Grove CEO Intel. Who survived the Nazi occupation of Hungary.
Why don't you spend a few minutes googling the history of the Jews and antisemitism? Confine yourself to pre 1948 (the founding of Israel).

 

[Mad Jack]

Only the Paranoid Survive.

Andras Graf. a.k.a Andy Grove CEO Intel. Who survived the Nazi occupation of Hungary.
Why don't you spend a few minutes googling the history of the Jews and antisemitism? Confine yourself to pre 1948 (the founding of Israel).

A group's past in no way justifies unethical behavior and human rights violations in the present.

 

[jl lin]

Go walk down a street in an Orthodox part of town in Israel, and see how friendly you are treated.

Holy jumping beans. That's just really wrong.

 

[deleted126335]

A group's past in no way justifies unethical behavior and human rights violations in the present.

I consider Israeli behavior toward the Palestinians far more ethical than the reverse.

 

[Mad Jack]

I consider Israeli behavior toward the Palestinians far more ethical than the reverse.

A minority of the Palestinian people launch rockets into Israeli territory and occasionally one is crazy enough to be a suicide bomber versus systematic and widespread human rights abuses committed toward every single Palestinian? I mean, if we're just comparing figures here, in the assault on Gaza in 2014, the Israelis killed two and a half times as many civilian Palestinians as the Palestinians have killed Israelis in total (both civilian and military) in all the years since 1967. That's a lot of dead innocent people, and completely unjustifiable.

http://israelipalestinian.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=000639
Pre-July 2014, there were a total of 700 Israelis killed by Palestinians since 1967, versus 8,306 Palestinians. If even one in ten of those Palestinians was a civilian (a great number more than that were, but I am too lazy to dig up the UN figures because they're meaningless in the face of the next statistic, but most estimates peg the number of civilians at around 75%) then there'd be more dead Palestinian civilians than total Israeli dead (the vast majority of which were soldiers, not civilians). However, there's no one that argues that even less than half of these dead were civilians that I've ever read commentary from, so you've got a minimum of 4,000 and a maximum of 6,000 dead civilians.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...estinians-2014-than-any-other-year-since-1967
"The conflict in Gaza in July and August was largely responsible for the dramatic increase in fatalities. It claimed the lives of 2,220 Gazans, of whom 1,492 were civilians, 605 militants and 123 unverified."
Now, that gives you an idea of the scale of issues we're dealing with. Israel killed those 1,492 civilians because of rockets fired that have, historically, killed a grand total of 44 people. So Israel is killing 34 civilians for every one civilian that dies to an extremist. And oppressing and disregarding the rights of every single Palestinian because of the actions of a few. At what point does killing and oppressing civilians go from being justifiable to unconscionable?

Just looking at the numbers and how everything went down, it's hard to be surprised that regimes like Iran have made them out to be a target. They don't exactly look like some shining bastion of equality, justice, and freedom when you look at the issue objectively, and even less so if you happen to be a person who feels some level of connection to the people they are oppressing every day and murdering in the crossfire.