The Iran Nuclear Deal

[deleted126335]

A minority of the Palestinian people launch rockets into Israeli territory and occasionally one is crazy enough to be a suicide bomber versus systematic and widespread human rights abuses committed toward every single Palestinian? I mean, if we're just comparing figures here, in the assault on Gaza in 2014, the Israelis killed two and a half times as many civilian Palestinians as the Palestinians have killed Israelis in total (both civilian and military) in all the years since 1967. That's a lot of dead innocent people, and completely unjustifiable.

http://israelipalestinian.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=000639
Pre-July 2014, there were a total of 700 Israelis killed by Palestinians since 1967, versus 8,306 Palestinians. If even one in ten of those Palestinians was a civilian (a great number more than that were, but I am too lazy to dig up the UN figures because they're meaningless in the face of the next statistic, but most estimates peg the number of civilians at around 75%) then there'd be more dead Palestinian civilians than total Israeli dead (the vast majority of which were soldiers, not civilians). However, there's no one that argues that even less than half of these dead were civilians that I've ever read commentary from, so you've got a minimum of 4,000 and a maximum of 6,000 dead civilians.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...estinians-2014-than-any-other-year-since-1967
"The conflict in Gaza in July and August was largely responsible for the dramatic increase in fatalities. It claimed the lives of 2,220 Gazans, of whom 1,492 were civilians, 605 militants and 123 unverified."
Now, that gives you an idea of the scale of issues we're dealing with. Israel killed those 1,492 civilians because of rockets fired that have, historically, killed a grand total of 44 people. So Israel is killing 34 civilians for every one civilian that dies to an extremist. And oppressing and disregarding the rights of every single Palestinian because of the actions of a few. At what point does killing and oppressing civilians go from being justifiable to unconscionable?

Just looking at the numbers and how everything went down, it's hard to be surprised that regimes like Iran have made them out to be a target. They don't exactly look like some shining bastion of equality, justice, and freedom when you look at the issue objectively, and even less so if you happen to be a person who feels some level of connection to the people they are oppressing every day and murdering in the crossfire.

You fail to consider intent in the equation. Palestinians kill as many Israeli civilians as they are able and far fewer than they intend. Israelis kill far fewer Palestinian civilians than they are able and far more than they intend.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Mad Jack]

You fail to consider intent in the equation. Palestinians kill as many Israeli civilians as they are able and far fewer than they intend. Israelis kill far fewer Palestinian civilians than they are able and far more than they intend.

So you're saying that the Palestinian civilians' lives are forfeit because of the intent of a minority element operating within their borders?

 

[deleted126335]

I am saying that the Israeli government has a duty to protect its civilians. That duty is higher than its duty to the citizens of an enemy government whose intent is to kill as many Israelis as possible and destroy the Israeli nation.

 

[Mad Jack]

I am saying that the Israeli government has a duty to protect its civilians. That duty is higher than its duty to the citizens of an enemy government whose intent is to kill as many Israelis as possible and destroy the Israeli nation.

That still doesn't justify the massive civilian casualties. An innocent dead person is an innocent dead person no matter how many ways you slice it. Worse still, the families of many of the dead likely become radicalized, resulting in more, rather than less, terrorists and terrorist activity. Disregarding civilian life both causes results that are counter to the cause of Israel and are counter to the human rights we expect every nation on this earth to uphold.

 

[deleted126335]

That still doesn't justify the massive civilian casualties. An innocent dead person is an innocent dead person no matter how many ways you slice it. Worse still, the families of many of the dead likely become radicalized, resulting in more, rather than less, terrorists and terrorist activity. Disregarding civilian life both causes results that are counter to the cause of Israel and are counter to the human rights we expect every nation on this earth to uphold.

Do you feel that way about the greatest generation of Americans that firebombed Tokyo and Dresden? Not to mention Hiroshima and Nagasaki? The continental US was virtually unscathed during WW2, it was never the stated intention of Germany or Japan to destroy the American nation. Germany and Japan had zero ability to project force at that time of those events, Yet we carpet bombed civilians for questionable military benefit. Do you hold that disregard of civilian life in the same manner?

 

[Planktonmd]

This type of arrogance and delusion of supremacy the Zionists insist on is exactly what provokes hatred and create terrorists in the middle east.
Fortunately in Israel there are moderate progressive voices who are already engaging similar minds on the Arab side in a productive cultural dialogue, and I think one day they will be able to change things.

 

[deleted126335]

This type of arrogance and delusion of supremacy the Zionists insist on is exactly what provokes hatred and create terrorists in the middle east.
Fortunately in Israel there are moderate progressive voices who are already engaging similar minds on the Arab side in a productive cultural dialogue, and I think one day they will be able to change things.

Could you specify what type of delusion that you are referring to?

 

[Mad Jack]

Do you feel that way about the greatest generation of Americans that firebombed Tokyo and Dresden? Not to mention Hiroshima and Nagasaki? The continental US was virtually unscathed during WW2, it was never the stated intention of Germany or Japan to destroy the American nation. Germany and Japan had zero ability to project force at that time of those events, Yet we carpet bombed civilians for questionable military benefit. Do you hold that disregard of civilian life in the same manner?

They were very different situations. Most of those civilians were part of an elaborate war machine, just as most American civilians were involved in the war effort. The areas targeted were those with factory workers and factories. This is not so with the dead Palestinians, most of which are completely uninvolved in having anything to do with terrorism- they're not making bombs, arming ships, and working in terrorist arms factories. They are just going about their day and then death rains from the sky.

 

[Planktonmd]

Could you specify what type of delusion that you are referring to?

The delusion that an Israeli life is more valuable than an Arab life and therefore it is justifiable to commit mass murder as long as the victims are Arabs.

 

[deleted126335]

You are putting words in my mouth. Reread my post.

 

[pgg]

That still doesn't justify the massive civilian casualties.

Children pay for their parents' bad decisions, and citizens pay for their governments' bad decisions. Not much that kids can do about their parents, but people can choose their government.

The Palestineans chose Hamas. I understand why they made that bad decision, but it was still a bad decision.

 

[GA8314]

o.k., we're all some pretty smart guys around here. As heated as these debates can get, I know many of us have a lot more in common than we do differences. So, what can be done to improve the situation in the Middle East, then? Racing towards hatred, fear, and more tragedy can't be the "only way" forward.

 

[Planktonmd]

o.k., we're all some pretty smart guys around here. As heated as these debates can get, I know many of us have a lot more in common than we do differences. So, what can be done to improve the situation in the Middle East, then? Racing towards hatred, fear, and more tragedy can't be the "only way" forward.

It will take time but eventually there will be peace

 

[doctalaughs]

They were very different situations. Most of those civilians were part of an elaborate war machine, just as most American civilians were involved in the war effort. The areas targeted were those with factory workers and factories. This is not so with the dead Palestinians, most of which are completely uninvolved in having anything to do with terrorism- they're not making bombs, arming ships, and working in terrorist arms factories. They are just going about their day and then death rains from the sky.

They aren't different at all. The majority of Palestinians SUPPORT Hamas, and ELECTED them. They also allow them to operate from their homes, schools and hospitals which forces the Israelis to fight back and raises "civilian" casualties.

In fact, the Israelis show MUCH more restraint than the Allies did during WW2. If they wanted to really do the same thing as we did in WW2, they could easily carpet bomb gaza and the west bank killing millions along with the military elements that are plaguing them.

Intent really DOES matter.

 

[doctalaughs]

The delusion that an Israeli life is more valuable than an Arab life and therefore it is justifiable to commit mass murder as long as the victims are Arabs.

There is no delusion. If someone is trying to kill you there is a right to defend yourself. You don't just sit there and do nothing.

The crazy thing is that Arabs are massacring each other all over the world. MILLIONS of innocent civilians are being killed with impunity in Syria, Iraq, Lebanon, Libya, Yemen, Pakistan, Afghanistan. And yet the world is somehow louder and more strident in condemning the Israelis because literally 0.001% civilians compared to the numbers above have died as unfortunate collateral damage (while Israel was trying to suppress rocket/tunnel/suicide attacks into their homeland).

 

[Mad Jack]

They aren't different at all. The majority of Palestinians SUPPORT Hamas, and ELECTED them. They also allow them to operate from their homes, schools and hospitals which forces the Israelis to fight back and raises "civilian" casualties.

In fact, the Israelis show MUCH more restraint than the Allies did during WW2. If they wanted to really do the same thing as we did in WW2, they could easily carpet bomb gaza and the west bank killing millions along with the military elements that are plaguing them.

Intent really DOES matter.

The majority of Americans elected Bush, a representative of the neoconservative politics that led to the Middle East hating us. Does that mean that those who did on 9/11 suddenly deserved to die?

A civilian is a civilian. Killing civilians is always unjustified, regardless of who they voted for.

 

[doctalaughs]

The majority of Americans elected Bush, a representative of the neoconservative politics that led to the Middle East hating us. Does that mean that those who did on 9/11 suddenly deserved to die?

A civilian is a civilian. Killing civilians is always unjustified, regardless of who they voted for.

Too black and white. Let's say a bank robber runs out holding a hostage and is spraying bullets all over at police and other innocents. The police shoot him dead but mistakenly kill the hostage too - it's a tragedy but it's also justified (because they had no other option but to let themselves and other innocents be killed).

 

[Planktonmd]

There is no delusion. If someone is trying to kill you there is a right to defend yourself. You don't just sit there and do nothing.

The crazy thing is that Arabs are massacring each other all over the world. MILLIONS of innocent civilians are being killed with impunity in Syria, Iraq, Lebanon, Libya, Yemen, Pakistan, Afghanistan. And yet the world is somehow louder and more strident in condemning the Israelis because literally 0.001% civilians compared to the numbers above have died as unfortunate collateral damage (while Israel was trying to suppress rocket/tunnel/suicide attacks into their homeland).

Do you know why the world is allowing the genocide to continue in Syria and allowing Assad to remain in power?
Very simple reason, Israel would rather have Assad protecting it's northern borders as he and his father did since 1973, so he lives, and continues to kill the Syrian people, and everyone including the US does nothing.
This is why at least 300,000 Syrians died and more than 3 Million became refugees, because Israel does not want to deal with a new unpredictable regime in Syria.

 

[Planktonmd]

Too black and white. Let's say a bank robber runs out holding a hostage and is spraying bullets all over at police and other innocents. The police shoot him dead but mistakenly kill the hostage too - it's a tragedy but it's also justified (because they had no other option but to let themselves and other innocents be killed).

The middle east conflict is a little bit more complex than Hollywood movies where good guys have to shoot bad guys and sometimes shoot innocent people in the process.

 

[doctalaughs]

Do you know why the world is allowing the genocide to continue in Syria and allowing Assad to remain in power?
Very simple reason, Israel would rather have Assad protecting it's northern borders as he and his father did since 1973, so he lives, and continues to kill the Syrian people, and everyone including the US does nothing.
This is why at least 300,000 Syrians died and more than 3 Million became refugees, because Israel does not want to deal with a new unpredictable regime in Syria.

You are actually blaming the massacre of innocents in Syria on Israel?

Wow, I'm speechless. You, sir have left me with literally nothing to say. Jews have always been scapegoats but that is truly creative reasoning.

 

[mostwanted]

I consider Israeli behavior toward the Palestinians far more ethical than the reverse.

How do you justify the annexing of an extra 1000 acres of Palestinian land? This goes to prove my point from earlier. There is no possible way that you are OBJECTIVELY looking at Israel's track record and make this statement, just based on the sheer difference in number of civilian deaths. Even in the Gaza pummeling last year where they murdered over 2000 civilians. Here is a link of the total killed from an ISRAELI human rights organization.

http://www.btselem.org/statistics/fatalities/during-cast-lead/by-date-of-event

Examine objectively and you cannot make that statement with a sound mind.

You are actually blaming the massacre of innocents in Syria on Israel?

Wow, I'm speechless. You, sir have left me with literally nothing to say. Jews have always been scapegoats but that is truly creative reasoning.

Stop trying to make this Jewish vs a non Jewish thing. Zionism is not the same as Judaism. I know practicing Jews who will never stand for the atrocities that Israel has committed. There are many secular Jews who see Zionism as an ethnicity rather than a religion. There are members of orthodox Jewry who in many aspects are completely against what has transpired against the Palestinians.

To suggest destroying of a sub 3rd world population by first world military, and robbing their land, and calling it self defense is sickening and requires much more creative reasoning. Look at the facts judge objectively. Thank God we can have this conversation on this thread without being stifled by the mainstream media outlets, when even educated professors with Phd on Israel/Palestitian conflict are denied tenure for reporting the truth. (i.e. Dr. Norman Finkelstein)

Please stop using antisemitism label to deflect criticism of the real atrocities of Israel. Holocaust was a terrible tragedy, it is sad to see the oppressed become the oppressors and ethnically cleanse the Palestinian from their homeland. Look at the facts judge objectively.

 

[FollowTheMoney]

How do you justify the annexing of an extra 1000 acres of Palestinian land? This goes to prove my point from earlier. There is no possible way that you are OBJECTIVELY looking at Israel's track record and make this statement, just based on the sheer difference in number of civilian deaths. Even in the Gaza pummeling last year where they murdered over 2000 civilians. Here is a link of the total killed from an ISRAELI human rights organization.

http://www.btselem.org/statistics/fatalities/during-cast-lead/by-date-of-event

Examine objectively and you cannot make that statement with a sound mind.



Stop trying to make this Jewish vs a non Jewish thing. Zionism is not the same as Judaism. I know practicing Jews who will never stand for the atrocities that Israel has committed. There are many secular Jews who see Zionism as an ethnicity rather than a religion. There are members of orthodox Jewry who in many aspects are completely against what has transpired against the Palestinians.

To suggest destroying of a sub 3rd world population by first world military, and robbing their land, and calling it self defense is sickening and requires much more creative reasoning. Look at the facts judge objectively. Thank God we can have this conversation on this thread without being stifled by the mainstream media outlets, when even educated professors with Phd on Israel/Palestitian conflict are denied tenure for reporting the truth. (i.e. Dr. Norman Finkelstein)

Please stop using antisemitism label to deflect criticism of the real atrocities of Israel. Holocaust was a terrible tragedy, it is sad to see the oppressed become the oppressors and ethnically cleanse the Palestinian from their homeland. Look at the facts judge objectively.

Sounds like a statement Hamas would make.

 

[FollowTheMoney]

I think you are oversimplifying the U.S.'s relationship with Israel. You do point out an aspect of the military industrial complex which may be part of the problem, however. Follow the money. There's big business in fear. Fear leads to arms sales. Chaos leads to the deployment of arms, which leads to more arms sales etc. etc. I think this is a problem, but not one with an easy, practical, solution.

There is a reason why I own Boeing.

 

[FollowTheMoney]

Why not?
Isn't that what negotiations are for?

You cannot negotiate with someone who wants you dead and will accept nothing less. You are dreaming if you think there will be peace. There will never be peace, ever. It's impossible. If you understand the mentality of these Palestenians and the history of the conflict, you will understand why there can never be peace. It's a perpetual cycle. Hamas gets weapons and rockets from Iran via Eygpt, they fire them indiscriminately into Israel hoping to kill whoever they can, and then Israel responds with an F-18 air strike that kills top Hamas leaders, their command centers, and their infrastructure. Then Hamas goes quiet trying to rebuild and regroup during this time of "peace" until they can rinse and repeat. Meanwhile, what's disgusting is that Hamas uses the money they have running the Gaza Strip for weapons and rockets instead of on schools, infrastructure, etc. They hate Israel more than their desire to help their own people. They don't care about their own civilians. They hope as many Palestinians as possible get killed as collateral damage so the international community will condemn Israel. They use women and children as human shields.

 

[mostwanted]

Sounds like a statement Hamas would make.

You are the one who thinks dropping the nuclear bomb was the right thing, and defending the ethnic cleansing of a population. I guess it is easier to resort to labels when you cannot defend any of the data presented.

Must be difficult defending an Apartheid state and when you have no moral ground to stand on. Carry on.

 

[Mad Jack]

You cannot negotiate with someone who wants you dead and will accept nothing less. You are dreaming if you think there will be peace. There will never be peace, ever. It's impossible. If you understand the mentality of these Palestenians and the history of the conflict, you will understand why there can never be peace. It's a perpetual cycle. Hamas gets weapons and rockets from Iran via Eygpt, they fire them indiscriminately into Israel hoping to kill whoever they can, and then Israel responds with an F-18 air strike that kills top Hamas leaders, their command centers, and their infrastructure. Then Hamas goes quiet trying to rebuild and regroup during this time of "peace" until they can rinse and repeat. Meanwhile, what's disgusting is that Hamas uses the money they have running the Gaza Strip for weapons and rockets instead of on schools, infrastructure, etc. They hate Israel more than their desire to help their own people. They don't care about their own civilians. They hope as many Palestinians as possible get killed as collateral damage so the international community will condemn Israel. They use women and children as human shields.

What would you do if you were the Palestinians? How would you approach having lived your entire life under military occupation? Would you not want to fight back? Would you just let all of those civilian deaths slide because the people that packed you into slums and then periodically bombed you your entire life had the best intentions?

 

[deleted126335]

Do you know why the world is allowing the genocide to continue in Syria and allowing Assad to remain in power?
Very simple reason, Israel would rather have Assad protecting it's northern borders as he and his father did since 1973, so he lives, and continues to kill the Syrian people, and everyone including the US does nothing.
This is why at least 300,000 Syrians died and more than 3 Million became refugees, because Israel does not want to deal with a new unpredictable regime in Syria.

I suspect that Israel would rather have Assad on their Northern border than ISIS. Assad as you have said has killed 300,000 of his own citizens. Syria has been at war with Israel for decades. Assad isn't protecting Israel's Northern border. He simply knows that Israel is willing and able to destroy his regime if he pushes them. It is called deterrence. ISIS doesn't give a damn if Israel were to flatten Damascus if they attacked Israel via Syria.

It doesn't follow that this is the reason that "the world" is allowing the genocide to continue. Nice of "the world" to do so much for an Israeli preference. Which is essentially choosing between a homicidal maniac with some sense of self preservation on your border or a homicidal maniac with no sense of self preservation on your border.

Where is your international community whose frequent sanctions of Israel you hold in such high regard? I forgot, that same community that repeatedly sanctions Israel is cowed by Zionist influence.

 

[deleted126335]

What would you do if you were the Palestinians? How would you approach having lived your entire life under military occupation? Would you not want to fight back? Would you just let all of those civilian deaths slide because the people that packed you into slums and then periodically bombed you your entire life had the best intentions?

I would do what is best for my children. Give them a home which they could be secure in. Which they have been offered many times. To them half a loaf is worse than none.

I do support a Palestinian state as part of an overall Peace deal and in return for best efforts at stopping the violence. Two states, one Jewish one Palestinian. Both secure. Not a Palestinian state and a Bi-national State that demographics would turn into another Islamic state.

 

[Mad Jack]

I would do what is best for my children. Give them a home which they could be secure in. Which they have been offered many times. To them half a loaf is worse than none.

I do support a Palestinian state as part of an overall Peace deal and in return for best efforts at stopping the violence. Two states, one Jewish one Palestinian. Both secure. Not a Palestinian state and a Bi-national State that demographics would turn into another Islamic state.

That conveniently neglects human nature. If some other country with superior weaponry claimed half of the United States and put your family in a slum behind a wall, and killed some of your friends and family via collateral damage, would you just say, "oh, that's fine I guess. Gotta think of the children." and then just take whatever deal they gave you? I mean, seriously, the Native Americans nearly fought us to their own extinction over a very similar scenario. People don't just give up like that, particularly when there are a lot of dead civilians involved and they've been treated with what they view as injustice.

On an infinite time scale, Israel will eventually become engaged in another war. I just hope that when that day comes, we aren't involved, because it could escalate into a global thermonuclear conflict if we are. I'm so frustrated by the whole region at this point I want to just say screw it all, Iran, develop your nukes, and you and Israel and Saudi Arabia can murder each other to your heart's contents so long as you leave us out of it. We shouldn't have been involved in any of this to begin with. With our shale reserves, we don't even need the Middle East anymore so long as we're willing to pay more for gas, so I say we just wash our hands of it. Not my problem, and I'm tired of our involvement in the whole region mucking up our international reputation.

 

[deleted126335]

Lots of people have lost wars.. They didn't fight to the last breath. See almost any war WW1, WW2, Korea, Viet Nam, etc.

Was that contrary to human nature?

 

[Planktonmd]

You are actually blaming the massacre of innocents in Syria on Israel?

Wow, I'm speechless. You, sir have left me with literally nothing to say. Jews have always been scapegoats but that is truly creative reasoning.

This is the truth my friend... Israel was opposed to the US attacking Assad when he used chemical weapons on civilians, and Israel allowed Assad to deploy his tanks in the demilitarized zone near the Golan heights to fight and kill his opposition.
Its more complicated than you think and Israel's fear of a new regime in Damascus was a major factor in shaping the impotent international policy in Syria.
Sorry for disturbing your rosy view of the world

 

[Mad Jack]

Lots of people have lost wars.. They didn't fight to the last breath. See almost any war WW1, WW2, Korea, Viet Nam, etc.

Was that contrary to human nature?

Those that list weren't toned up and put behind a wall for two generations. That kind of changes things substantially.

 

[Mad Jack]

This is the truth my friend... Israel was opposed to the US attacking Assad when he used chemical weapons on civilians, and Israel allowed Assad to deploy his tanks in the demilitarized zone near the Golan heights to fight and kill his opposition.
Its more complicated than you think and Israel's fear of a new regime in Damascus was a major factor in shaping the impotent international policy in Syria.
Sorry for disturbing your rosy view of the world

It's not as simple as this though. Israel was okay with Assad because he's certainly better for them than whoever will replace him, but the biggest reason for non-intervention has been that Russia supports Assad. If we intervened, it could result in a US-Russian conflict, which is no good for anyone. That Israel also doesn't want to risk an extremist Islamic state to their north only makes things easier.

 

[GA8314]

There is a reason why I own Boeing.

Sure, for your portfolio, some defense stocks would make sense.

I like that defense companies are, sadly, one of the last vestiges of manufacturing the U.S. still excels in, but I'd rather see us making other things, like the Germans that still make MANY things.

The U.S. isn't perfect but the fact that big money, via lobbying and influence, dictates much of our various policies isn't really a good thing for the overall, long term, direction. Nor is it good for MOST Americans.

****This is why I support the ASA-PAC. It DOES matter.

 

[Planktonmd]

It's not as simple as this though. Israel was okay with Assad because he's certainly better for them than whoever will replace him, but the biggest reason for non-intervention has been that Russia supports Assad. If we intervened, it could result in a US-Russian conflict, which is no good for anyone. That Israel also doesn't want to risk an extremist Islamic state to their north only makes things easier.

Yes Israel's interest, Putin's imperial ambitions, and Iran's project all lead to the ongoing massacre of the Syrian people while the world watches.

 

[GA8314]

I would do what is best for my children. Give them a home which they could be secure in. Which they have been offered many times. To them half a loaf is worse than none.

I do support a Palestinian state as part of an overall Peace deal and in return for best efforts at stopping the violence. Two states, one Jewish one Palestinian. Both secure. Not a Palestinian state and a Bi-national State that demographics would turn into another Islamic state.

dr doze, do you also support the idea of European nations to limit or even eliminate immigration, thus also avoiding the same demographic and cultural shifts which can ensue if the status quo continues unabated? Can the French say "France for the French". How about the Germans? Germany for the Germans? Do you also support those nation's right to assert their own ethnic, cultural, religious identities?

Or is Israel the exception?

 

[deleted126335]

dr doze, do you also support the idea of European nations to limit or even eliminate immigration, thus also avoiding the same demographic and cultural shifts which can ensue if the status quo continues unabated? Can the French say "France for the French". How about the Germans? Germany for the Germans? Do you also support those nation's right to assert their own ethnic, cultural, religious identities?

I don't know enough about the European immigration problem to comment on. Certainly a nation has a right to control its borders. A person or nation should look at each situation one at a time. Look at what acting or not acting might cost them in terms of self respect. Balancing their duty to themselves, their country men, and citizens of other nations with their conscience.

 

[deleted126335]

Yes Israel's interest, Putin's imperial ambitions, and Iran's project all lead to the ongoing massacre of the Syrian people while the world watches.

Could it be that nobody is willing to risk their own military to die for these people? Have you considered the possibility that nobody gives enough of a **** to risk their own skin because there is no gain for them? Isn't the simplest explanation usually the best?

 

[GA8314]

Suffice it to say that many European nations now have growing "right wing" parties which are advocating ethnocentrism ideas as pertains to ethnic and religious minorities. They have similar demographic shift concerns as you seem to have about Israel. In other words you seem to be advocating Israel for Jews only.

Can the French relocate Jews out of France? How about Muslims? Or maybe Muslims but DEFINITELY NOT Jews? Lots of Jews are moving into Berlin these days. Can a new German political party say "no thanks" and deport the Jews out of Germany (NOT like in Nazi Germany)? Can this be done peacefully? How about with "relocation assistance"?

You seem to be advocating relocating Palestinian Israeli's into a future Palestinian state. If I misunderstand you then please elaborate your point of view, but please answer my question. How do you feel about the above?

 

[Mad Jack]

Could it be that nobody is willing to risk their own military to die for these people? Have you considered the possibility that nobody gives enough of a **** to risk their own skin because there is no gain for them? Isn't the simplest explanation usually the best?

We could have turned Assad into The Crater Formerly Known As Assad within a week using cruise missiles, air strikes, and drones if we wanted to. We don't need to risk a single man to end his regime- if we started dropping bombs, he'd fold fast to avoid ending up like Saddam.

 

[Planktonmd]

Could it be that nobody is willing to risk their own military to die for these people? Have you considered the possibility that nobody gives enough of a **** to risk their own skin because there is no gain for them? Isn't the simplest explanation usually the best?

"These people" are not insects! They are humans and descendants of the greatest culture in history.
The whole uprising in the middle east was orchestrated and funded by the US and it's allies but in Syria when people rose they did not get the support they were promised and were left to face the brutal dictator alone.
That's what happened differently in Syria compared to Libya, Egypt, Tunisia..., the moderate Syrian rebels who were initially funded and trained by our intelligence were left alone to face the tanks.
That's what transformed this revolution into a sectarian civil war and opened the doors to foreign fighters to come and to something like ISIS to appear.
This is not the first time we do this type of mutant intervention in a country by the way.

 

[deleted126335]

Suffice it to say that many European nations now have growing "right wing" parties which are advocating ethnocentrism ideas as pertains to ethnic and religious minorities. They have similar demographic shift concerns as you seem to have about Israel. In other words you seem to be advocating Israel for Jews only.

Can the French relocate Jews out of France? How about Muslims? Or maybe Muslims but DEFINITELY NOT Jews? Lots of Jews are moving into Berlin these days. Can a new German political party say "no thanks" and deport the Jews out of Germany (NOT like in Nazi Germany)? Can this be done peacefully? How about with "relocation assistance"?

You seem to be advocating relocating Palestinian Israeli's into a future Palestinian state. If I misunderstand you then please elaborate your point of view, but please answer my question. How do you feel about the above?

No I don't advocate relocating. I advocate a two state solution. The border being the West Bank border with land swaps in what is currently Israel for the Israelis maintaining the major settlement blocs. It would require large numbers of Israelis to be evacuated from the West Bank smaller settlements. This is essentially what Olmert proposed in 2009 to the Palestinians... It was not acceptable to them.

 

[deleted126335]

"These people" are not insects! They are humans and descendants of the greatest culture in history.These people" are not insects!

They are humans and descendants of the greatest culture in history.
The whole uprising in the middle east was orchestrated and funded by the US and it's allies but in Syria when people rose they did not get the support they were promised and were left to face the brutal dictator alone.
That's what happened differently in Syria compared to Libya, Egypt, Tunisia..., the moderate Syrian rebels who were initially funded and trained by our intelligence were left alone to face the tanks.
That's what transformed this revolution into a sectarian civil war and opened the doors to foreign fighters to come and to something like ISIS to appear.
This is not the first time we do this type of mutant intervention in a country by the way.

No they are not insects. They are human beings being killed by other human beings while even more human beings are unwilling to help. I simply reject your assertion that help would be forthcoming, but for Israeli lobbying. Most of the world turns its back most of the time at these horrors unless there is some secondary gain for intervening.

 

[deleted126335]

We could have turned Assad into The Crater Formerly Known As Assad within a week using cruise missiles, air strikes, and drones if we wanted to. We don't need to risk a single man to end his regime- if we started dropping bombs, he'd fold fast to avoid ending up like Saddam.

You sure? We tried like hell to kill Saddam Hussein and his sons with air strikes for months. Couldn't locate the bastard. It took a ground invasion to do that.

 

[GA8314]

EVERY nation has the right to preserve it's ethnic and religious fabric. I'm not one that is suggesting Israel has no right to exist. I can not debate the merits or details of the establishment of the nation of Israel. Israel exists, and it's silly to suggest that the country "should" fold and all the Jews of Israel should go somewhere else. It's never ever going to happen and I'm not even saying it "should". It shouldn't and won't.

So, yes, a peaceful (as much as possible) solution needs to be presented and implemented in order to address your concerns as well as that of many other Jews.

I realize not all Jews even advocate what you suggest, but many do. My personal view is that all nations (Not just Israel) have a right to avoid demographic catastrophes which eventually WILL change the fabric of those nations FOREVER. So, a France which is no longer majority inhabited by the French is just as real a possibility as an Israel under the current demographic threat. This is a valid concern.

I ask you again. Do European and other nations have the right to similar solutions such as what you advocate for Israel? Would you support them in their right to do so, as you expect the world community to support Israel in their similar agenda which you are advocating?

 

[deleted126335]

EVERY nation has the right to preserve it's ethnic and religious fabric. I'm not one that is suggesting Israel has no right to exist. I can not debate the merits or details of the establishment of the nation of Israel. Israel exists, and it's silly to suggest that the country "should" fold and all the Jews of Israel should go somewhere else. It's never ever going to happen and I'm not even saying it "should". It shouldn't and won't.

So, yes, a peaceful (as much as possible) solution needs to be presented and implemented in order to address your concerns as well as that of many other Jews.

I realize not all Jews even advocate what you suggest, but many do. My personal view is that all nations (Not just Israel) have a right to avoid demographic catastrophes which eventually WILL change the fabric of those nations FOREVER. So, a France which is no longer majority inhabited by the French is just as real a possibility as an Israel under the current demographic threat. This is a valid concern.

I ask you again. Do European and other nations have the right to similar solutions such as what you advocate for Israel? Would you support them in their right to do so, as you expect the world community to support Israel in their similar agenda which you are advocating?

If you are talking about closing your borders to new arrivals yes.

 

[doctalaughs]

This is the truth my friend... Israel was opposed to the US attacking Assad when he used chemical weapons on civilians, and Israel allowed Assad to deploy his tanks in the demilitarized zone near the Golan heights to fight and kill his opposition.
Its more complicated than you think and Israel's fear of a new regime in Damascus was a major factor in shaping the impotent international policy in Syria.
Sorry for disturbing your rosy view of the world

So let me make sure I understand. When the Isarelis kill Arabs it's their fault. When the Arabs kill Israelis it also their fault (because the israelis did things to incite their hatred). When Arabs kill Americans its also Israel's fault (because we shouldn't have been supporting Israel). And of course when Arabs kill Arabs it's also Israel's fault.

 

[Planktonmd]

If you are talking about closing your borders to new arrivals yes.

France can't return it's demographic structure to what it was before importing millions of north Africans as cheap labor simply by closing the borders!
The north African community is growing much faster than any other component of the french society and the only way to stop that would be by making these 2nd or 3rd generation immigrants go back to where their parents and grand parents came from.
So the question is: is that ethically acceptable and should France be allowed to do what Israel has been doing for decades?

 

[Planktonmd]

So let me make sure I understand. When the Isareli's kill Arabs it's their fault. When the Arabs kill Israeli's it also their fault (because the israelis did things to incite their hatred). When Arabs kill Americans its also Israel's fault (because we shouldn't have been supporting Israel). And of course when Arabs kill Arabs it's also Israel's fault.

I wish things were that simple... again, it's not a Hollywood movie with good guys and bad guys where ultimately the good guys kill the bad guys and where everyone knows who the bad guy is.
It's a very complicated situation where things that are fed to the masses through media outlets are not necessarily accurate, and where you really need to know the history of the region and try to be objective in your view if you want to understand.
You certainly can't be objective if you start your journey to understanding from being biased to one party based on common propaganda.

 

[deleted126335]

France can't return it's demographic structure to what it was before importing millions of north Africans as cheap labor simply by closing the borders!
The north African community is growing much faster than any other component of the french society and the only way to stop that would be by making these 2nd or 3rd generation immigrants go back to where their parents and grand parents came from.
So the question is: is that ethically acceptable and should France be allowed to do what Israel has been doing for decades?

I reject your characterization that "this is what Israel has been doing for decades". I don't consider the West Bank (except the major settlement blocs, which should be swapped for land on the Israeli side of the border) or Gaza part of Israel. To me the border should be the West Bank border plus the major settlement blocs minus Gaza. This is about 85% Jewish. While I understand the continued settlement of the West Bank, I think that it is and has been a terrible mistake. I do support the continued military occupation in the name of security of Israeli citizens until a peace agreement can be reached. Not annexation.

The French made their choices and can't reasonably expel large numbers of Africans. As we made our immigration choices and can't expel large numbers of Latinos. The Israelis have made a bad choice with trying to build on the West Bank but a good choice by not giving in on the right of return as a necessary but not sufficient condition to a Peace agreement.